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Comments on rough kitchen layout?

2rickies
last month

I'm interested in what you think about the general traffic flow/location of appliances. I'm trying to follow the "ice-water-stone-fire" directive to the extent possible in this space.


I tried to mark measurements wherever I could.


The island is smaller than it looks and has no seating.


The fridge wall has the smaller second sink and coffee/toaster. I think of this as a drinks/snack area for people coming from other parts of the house where they won't get in the way of the main workspace. There is an argument to be made for putting those functions on the peninsula by the breakfast room. But the fridge has to stay on that east wall. (There is also an argument for putting the oven stack next to the fridge but i am not convinced.)


North is up. There are big windows south and west.


Thoughts?




Comments (51)

  • ldecor54
    last month

    Would not do the 5 foot return by the nook. id keep it open, not a narrowed down walkway

    2rickies thanked ldecor54
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  • dan1888
    last month

    I also would drop the peninsula. And I'd move the ovens to the micro location. The sink next to the frig can be smaller to allow some work space. I'd also reduce the island sink to 24" and offset it and the dw towards the frig to avoid back to back interference with someone using the rangetop. I'd change the rangetop to an induction cooktop. The counter for that run I'd make 28" deep.

  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    last month

    I think kitchens work best adjacent the dining room. Cooked food more closely resemble cooked food when it is hot. The longer it has to cool the less appetizing it is. And often the view of the kitchen from the dining room (area) is more appealing than a view of the kitchen from a living room (area).

    2rickies thanked Mark Bischak, Architect
  • cpartist
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Get the house right first.

    When I start a drawing, (I'm an artist) I don't start with the details but first with blocking in the overall larger shapes and as I refine them, I slowly get into more and more details. It's the same with designing a house.

  • Mrs Pete
    last month
    last modified: last month

    The island is smaller than it looks and has no seating.

    You're not doing island seating -- that's wise, given that you have three other eating areas. BUT this is still a fairly big island. Are you going to have cabinets on the "back side" of the island? Or bookcases? Or what?

    The fridge wall has the smaller second sink and coffee/toaster. I think of this as a drinks/snack area for people coming from other parts of the house where they won't get in the way of the main workspace.

    I'd think about placing the microwave in this space too -- on a shelf about eye level. My reasoning: I really use my microwave only for rewarming leftovers. It'd be convenient to get a plate of food from the refrigerator and warm it up. I'd also like to see the microwave up off the countertop /easier for cleaning.

    Would not do the 5 foot return by the nook. id keep it open, not a narrowed down walkway

    I'm iffy on this, but the idea has its merits. For example, if you're looking at aging-in-place (or if you have elderly visitors), losing the peninsula would make it easier to reach the breakfast table area. You don't really need the storage it would provide. Yeah, I think I come down on the side of removing it ... but I'm not strongly on that side.

    What are the dimensions of your walking aisles?

    I think kitchens work best adjacent the dining room.

    So much. This is a major "miss" in this plan.

    Other thoughts:

    - The island is 7x5? Your sink will be 3' wide, your dishwasher 2' wide ... that leaves a generous 2' for the trash. But you have no drawer storage at the sink -- I'd especially want a couple knives and cutting boards at the sink. 5' wide is too wide to easily clean the middle of the island.

    - I'd consider moving the dishwasher to the other side of the island ... then place drawers on the SIDE of the island facing the refrigerator. This would be an ideal spot to store containers for leftovers and plastic wrap /the spot for wrapping and putting away.

    - If you put the trash on the right side of the island, it can serve the coffee area ... you don't really want two trash cans to empty.

    - Do you have a direct route to the outside trash can? Where's your recycling?

    - Is your glassware going to be stored near the refrigerator?

    - I'd want a cutting board made to fit the bar sink. This allows it to be a countertop when you don't need the sink ... my brother has such a thing, and it's great.

    - When you have parties, how will you serve food? If you do buffets, where will you set out your food? your drinks? your desserts?

    - Where are you storing your silverware?

    - Do you have a stand mixer? Other small appliances? Where will they be stored?

    - Where's your fire extinguisher?

    - Where's your broom and mop?

    - Why are you going with an oversized 6-burner range?

    - Do you have a drawer next to the range for cooking utensils and pot holders?

    - Where are you storing spices and oils?

    - Rethink the hinged door on the left: imagine you're carrying a plate of burgers to the grill ... you must walk around the door before you can open it. Either go with a sliding door or hinge it the other direction/ towards the kitchen.

    - You haven't mentioned lighting ... I'd want to see a pendant light in front of each of the windows that flank the cooktop ... and under-cabinet lighting ... and a sizeable light over the island.

    2rickies thanked Mrs Pete
  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    I need measurements. But if you delete seating at island d I would turn island and make a longer island so you can move ovens from major walkway from mud room area. That is a no-no. And get sink, dishwasher etc in a better triangle. Please post measurements so we can be of more help. Kitchens are all about small fractions of inches and function. You show limited wall space so it requires careful, detailed layout.

    2rickies thanked Flo Mangan
  • herbflavor
    last month
    last modified: last month

    start by cutting peninsula back to 3 feet. doesn' have to be all or nothing. dishes can land there and then get over to dishwasher when person who does sink duty wants to scoop them up. no harm .....helpful spot .when you think about it....... breakfast/light meal things can be set out there. I would include seating at the island. Even a 12 in overhang. I think being n the center of everything It'll get used and if not , then just push the stools under. But people will like it. The little door to deck/terrace cold be called out as above comment. .I notice we grill a lot ...... in/out a lot but many neighbors dont at all . So depends on what you anticipate . a slider can be the better choice. .

    2rickies thanked herbflavor
  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    Thanks for all the helpful comments! As you can tell, i'm still early in the process. Have not met with KD yet, but will be doing that soon.


    About the dining room, we keep changing our minds about whether to put it right by the kitchen (would be below it diagonally), or the next seating area over, a little farther away. The latter has a 9-foot ceiling, so it's a little more intimate. The kitchen also has a 9-ft ceiling. The seating area south of the kitchen has a vaulted ceiling. We can change our minds about the dining room location anytime we want. It's just a matter of switching the table and chairs to another spot so we will probably try it a couple of ways.


    Frankly, i'm not sure i want to see the kitchen while i'm sitting at the dinner table for a more formal meal. Otoh, during meal prep, most people gather in the kitchen, and the seating area below it provides overflow, ways to get outside, etc.


    I'd like to keep a peninsula for serving and clearing from that breakfast area, but i agree it could be smaller.


    The breakfast area will be where we have most meals and can seat up to 6 people.


    Agree about the direction of that door to the outside terrace. There is also a sliding door, just south of there.


    I have a 36" 6-burner rangetop because I will use it. (I know from experience.)

    I considered induction, but for several reasons (sparse service options, frequent power outages, family member with pacemaker) I'm sticking with the rangetop.


    Flo, not sure what you mean about the ovens and how turning the island would be helpful? The ovens are not near the entrance from the garage, they're at the other end of the run near the breakfast room. (Also, that is not the only path into the house from the garage.) I'm considering putting a dutch door at that entrance. I don't want to overdo it with the doors, but it might be helpful for keeping people out if i want to.


    I did consider putting the m/w on the counter near the 2nd sink (but not high up--i spill things). It will depend on how much space i want to take up with small appliances there. Also i do sometimes "cook" or prep in the m/w, but i anticipate i'll be using the steam oven for the kinds of things i would have done there.


    Mrs. Pete, good idea about a cutting board for over the second sink.

    I haven't got as far as planning drawers for specific items or lighting. I have done a kitchen reno before, and i will definitely go with undercab lighting.

    I am not excited about having the dishwasher and the trash take up the whole side of the island with the sink, but I think i need the trash there, and i don't see where else i could logically put the d/w (or the main sink), although i considered putting the d/w by the second sink, that will be a much smaller sink so it won't work.

    In my current kitchen, I keep a knife block on the counter by the main sink, and the cutting boards go in a narrow vertical lower cabinet behind me. That works fine for me. That said, it would be nice to have a drawer or two by the sink.


    I can carry trash out to the garage or directly outside via the mudroom. (Haven't decided yet where the best place is for outside trash--we have bears, so it will take some planning. There's no local pickup, so we take it to the disposal/recycling center at least once a week.)


    I don't have a stand mixer, but i do a lot of baking. I should probably get one. Small appliances that are not frequently used will live in the pantry.


    cpartist, i really hear you that you don't like the overall house design. We met and did more work on it tonight, and i think it's improved. But even if some other areas in the house change, the kitchen location and size are unlikely to change, and i'd like to get some general input before i meet with the KD.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    Sorry. I was working from my cell phone and printing was so small I misread identifications. I like cooktop on outside wall for easy ventilation. I still don’t understand the oven configuration. I shall play with some alternatives for you with the 17 x 14’ overall space. Bbl

    2rickies thanked Flo Mangan
  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    This is first cut at the space. Oversized island accommodates many needs. Some creative countertop will be required. Bookmarked granite or quartz. But it creates a lot of what you want. 42” of walk ways between side and island. Sink with trash pull out on one side and dishwasher on other. Sink in middle. Cook top or drop in range behind sink. Add 4” more walkway if you put drop in range. Pullout units either side of range for spices, oils etc. On far left a set of drawers for dishes for easy transport to breakfast area. To right of range cabinets for pots and pans and other cooking items. On other side a 42” counter deep refrigerator and coffee center flanked by double ovens. On island a below counter microwave. Easy access to refrigerator and coffee area. The island areas remaining would have a drawer bank for dining items such as placemats/napkins and other items for dining areas. A spot for seldom used trays and large platters etc. The large amount of countertops accommodates several people in kitchen at the same time. Great entertainment center. I would place windows were they fit best. Add upper cabinets where most useful. Lighting should be layered with can type, island chandelier, undercabinet, hood lighting and pendants over window areas. Hope this helps you plan a great kitchen/entertainment space.

    2rickies thanked Flo Mangan
  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    If you do a range top, the space below is great for drawers to have easy access to pots and pans. It would need to be customized to various depths from range and gas lines and items under range. It’s great space so it can be amazing!!

    2rickies thanked Flo Mangan
  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    Flo, this is so helpful, thank you! A question--why do you like the ovens better on the fridge wall than on the wall near the rangetop and sink? Is there a different place where you'd put a small second sink? I had planned it at the coffee bar counter.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    Yes. I like ovens further away because they are better kind of out of the way. Where I put them allows a quick turn to the island to set hot items on racks from hot oven. Also, it keeps their heat more controlled. My experience with second sinks is they aren’t very useful. If you decide to do one make it larger than a typical bar sink. I don’t think you need it with your large island sink. Most prep will be on the island near your sink. In addition, if you will be on a septic system, you don’t want disposals. Plus, you will use your trash pull outs so easier to clean right near them. So you can think about how you might use it. They also take up undercabinet space too, plus added cost of faucets etc. I prefer to put my kitchen dollars in more functional items. And I cook fresh nearly everday with French and Belgium approaches. So I have very specific functional needs. But to each his own.

    2rickies thanked Flo Mangan
  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    last month
    last modified: last month

    "The breakfast area will be where we have most meals and can seat up to 6 people."

    Then eliminate the dining area.

    If you can not eliminate the dining area, see my comment above.

  • cpartist
    last month

    cpartist, i really hear you that you don't like the overall house design. We met and did more work on it tonight, and i think it's improved. But even if some other areas in the house change, the kitchen location and size are unlikely to change, and i'd like to get some general input before i meet with the KD.

    Actually the overall house design I do like. It has a lot of positives to it. I feel the the major blocks work but you need lots of refinement still in terms of placement of things like dining room, master baths, etc. But that's why it's still a work in progress.

    Do me a favor and post the overall house plan again. I'm wondering if the kitchen layout could be improved by moving doors, etc.

    2rickies thanked cpartist
  • rtpaige03
    last month

    A 10x10 breakfast area is far too tight for seating for six and that peninsula. If that is where most your meals will be, you will be cursing that peninsula every day. Flo’s plan moving the ovens and eliminating the bar sink is an improvement

    2rickies thanked rtpaige03
  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    Flo, thanks for the additional explanation. I will think about those factors.


    rtpaige, yes, i agree it would be tight with the peninsula. If we're sitting there with 6, it would be immediate family, and we tend to be informal, so we might decide to sit there instead of the dining table. Most often though it would be 2-4.


    cpartist, thank you, i appreciate that. there are more changes being made right now, eg, reconfiguring the mudroom, so i'll post again when we have the revision.

  • dan1888
    last month

    If you've relocated the oven stack to the right of the rangetop you'll have an expansion stretch of counter to present plates on without needing the peninsula. In fact that length won't get any other significant use.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    I would use breakfast area for 4 people. Then transform area near kitchen to a multipurpose flex space. Make it a library/dining area with seating for TV or reading. The space currently identified as dining would be sitting and living area. I like the creativity your space evokes. Just getting everything set up just right is biggest challenge.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    dan1888, making sure i understand--you suggest putting ovens on the right instead of left, then use the area to the left of the rangetop for plating?

    Some of my confusion has to do with the d/w placement. In my current kitchen--which i reno'd with gardenweb help some years ago and i'm very happy with--there were limitations to where i could put things (smaller space), and the dishwasher and dish cabinets are in my main prep zone between sink and stove. It was still the best way to do it, but it's a constant conflict.

    My question is, will i want the d/w to left of sink, near fridge, and put dish storage around the corner in the island, which leaves the whole area to the right of the sink, and the countertop to left of rangetop unimpeded by people emptying/loading the dishwasher, getting dishes to use, etc. OR do I want d/w to right of sink so it's not between me and the fridge (and ovens, if they are to right of rangetop)? Not sure which is worse--impeding main prep space or impeding path to fridge. Probably the former.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Flo, that's helpful, thank you. I keep changing my mind about the TV, since you mention it. I thought we'd put it upstairs because we rarely watch it, and so it could be in a more enclosed space, but maybe it's better in the sitting area.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    Imagine open oven doors in main passage. To right or left of range will create bottkeneck and danger especially if you have younger littles running around. By moving ovens to outer edge of space, you greatly improve overall functionality of your kitchen. As to dishwasher, I like your d/w to right of sink so when unloading (assuming dishes and pans are where I placed in my sketch layout) it makes this task easier. I assume you are aware of the kitchen work triangle for maximum efficiency. In my layout, you are well within the best distances. Notice ovens are not in the triangle. It’s the most used items in kitchen. Sink, range and refrigerator. I put microwave in that triangle as well.

    2rickies thanked Flo Mangan
  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    Triangle on my layout.

    2rickies thanked Flo Mangan
  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    Flo, yes, i see the logic in this plan, thank you. If I close up the entrance to the kitchen on the fridge wall, would you still put the ovens on that far end? And if I do want a small second sink (I would like one), where would it go?

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    If you close up the wall next to refrigerator you could move refrigerator down and create space on that wall for a sink. But you loose a drawer cabinet and create a dead corner. So you have to decide which is more important.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    My hope is that the entrance there will not actually become the main passage into the house from the garage and outside, since you can also go to the great room directly from the same area. I'm even thinking of putting a Dutch door at that entrance to the kitchen to dissuade people, but that idea will probably be rejected. Anyway, my other hope is that people who do come in that way will turn left and go the great room rather than cutting across between the sink and the stove.

  • cpartist
    last month

    You hooe it won't be the main passage but it will because people tend to take the shortest distance. Find another solution and having an L shaped perimeter will make for a better layout.

    As for the corner, you can make it into drawers like I did, or turn it into a dead corner with drawers on either side or put in a lazy susan.

    My corner drawers:


    2rickies thanked cpartist
  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    cpartist, cool drawer! In my current kitchen i made it a dead corner with a tray cab on one side and spice drawers and tall condiment drawer on the other. My concern about closing up that entrance is the fridge. Then I have to put it at the end of the run, which seems a little far from the main prep space, but I am going to try that option to see how it plays out.

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I'm not ever a fan of the main sink and dishwasher in the island.

    The storage for the everyday dishes should be near the dishwasher / sink (as in right above). You shouldn't have to carry the bulk of the clean dishes to someplace else.

    Ideally you shouldn't have to carry pans of hot water from the stove across a walkway (and turn 180 degrees) either. This is how people get burned. Ideally the sink is near the stove, perhaps turning 90 degrees, and there is continuous countertop that you could put down a heavy pan of water. Importantly the cooking area isn't also a walkway to the garage.

    Also, if the sink and dishwasher are in the island, it becomes a default "clean-up zone" and that's not what I want the island ever to be. Islands are always a transition place in my kitchens. Guests stay on one side of the island - one or two cooks on the other. Food is "staged" on the island if we are eating in another room, or it's where we eat for small groups. It's a focal point and often visible from other areas - I don't want a "clean up zone" (dirty dishes and pans) ever to be a focal point.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    Jake, I agree, I don't love the idea of having the clean up area central like that, but i don't see a good alternative. I also envision the island as a staging area. But generally, at least right now, I have a deep sink where I hide stuff, and I clean up as I prep. When I'm ready to serve, only the pots and pans and some utensils i've used need to be cleaned, and they're either hidden in the deep sink, or still on the stove. The clean up isn't occurring at the same time as that staging period. The only thing is, the stuff that goes on a drying mat (or in a dreaded dish rack) will be drying in full view to one side of the sink.


    Otoh, making the second sink the cleanup sink (on that counter run south of the fridge) would put the view of the open dishwasher during cleanup right next to the social space, rather than hidden behind the island. That seems worse.


    Or, if we close up that east kitchen entrance (which is under consideration) we could put the fridge at the bottom of that run, and the sink and d/w higher up, but then you are trapped in a corner with the dishwasher, with no window in front of the clean-up sink and blocking the prep cook's route to the fridge.


    The only other option i see is to keep the peninsula by the breakfast area and put the 2nd sink and d/w there. The open dishwasher would have to be at the south end of the peninsula. That puts the second sink far from the coffee bar/toaster/fridge, with the island in the way. This all leads me to conclude that the current location of the sink and d/w is probably the best-case scenario, but I'll see when I have the KD take a look.


    Wherever the d/w is, the dishes would be stored in a drawer nearby. I have them in a drawer now, and it works well for me. (If I could put everything in drawers, I would!)

  • decoenthusiaste
    last month

    https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6188769/revised-layout-comments#n=42

    I still think the dining area should be by the kitchen with one fireplace at the far end of the open area. I like having the casual serve-yourself spot near the open area so others can serve themselves coffee, warm a snack in the micro, get a drink from the fridge without getting into your work space. Would also want a dish drawer and silver drawer in that end of the island so it is easy to set the table from there. Agree with moving the ovens to your micro location to open up a nice work top. I would eliminate the peninsula blocking the breakfast area, and would totally eliminate uppers in favor of all drawers and pullouts for increased storage. Here's why.



    2rickies thanked decoenthusiaste
  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    decoenthusiaste, totally agree about drawers, I much prefer them. I'm short, and in my current kitchen, where I needed uppers to have enough storage, I have a toe-kick stool, which is very useful also for changing light bulbs. Not sure if i'll be able to get away with zero uppers in this plan, but I'll see; I do find them useful to store less frequently needed items. Right now, there are a few glass door uppers where I display some colorful handmade serving pieces, not sure if i'll do that in this kitchen or not.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    Yes, I am short too and drawers are wonderful! You have a couple fundamental decisions to make. Could you put sink, range and dishwasher on outside wall to improve function and keep island clear on top. I have done that and it is my favorite layout for me. Second, do you want to do “L” shape and enclose that current open end? If you move sink to back wall, it will help keep things tidier and allow entire island to be surface for buffet style, and casual eating. I love that. The whole family can be in and around. Even with stools, no one sat down or left the island. The family room was adjacent but we all ended up around the island. It was big. 9’ long and 54” deep (wide). Hard to clean middle but it was best overall kitchen except my double island big house kitchen! Lol

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  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    Flo, I'm trying a few different mockups to see how I like them. It would be great if i could get that sink out of view, imo. If i put the sink and stove on the north wall, i don't think i can center the stove and still have good prep space between them. Will that look bad? I'll have a 42" hood.

  • cpartist
    last month

    I actually put my prep sink along the L perimeter and my cleanup sink, dw and drawers for main dishes and utensils on my island. What was my reasoning for doing it that way?

    I'm a bit older and watched my mother who used a walker when she got parkinsons disease still be able to prep and cook because her layout had the sink and her cooktop along the perimeter so it was easy for her to just slide stuff along the counter.

    With a deep sink, it is never an issue having the cleanup sink where I have it and in fact it's so much easier. Having 2 sinks works great because it means my DH can be helping by loading the dw while I'm cooking.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    cpartist, in that scenario, the large sink would stay where it is in the island, with dw to one side. That's also in the spot most convenient for cooking prep right now, whereas the second sink (if that were to become the prep sink) would have to move, switching with the fridge, i guess, then the fridge would move down to the end of the short L. I was trying to reserve that sink for people who aren't doing the major cooking, because that's the cause of traffic conflicts in my current kitchen.


    Edited to say, i'm realizing as i do various mockups that if I plan to use the island sink for prep and clean-up now (my preference), i would arrange storage around it differently than if i use the perimeter sink for prep and the main sink only for clean-up.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    These are both imprecise, but my goal here was to try a couple of different rough scenarios. I haven't tried to place everything that needs storing.


    The first one moves the main sink to the back wall, and main prep area is then between that sink and the rangetop. Main problem is both are now off-center, and i think that will look odd with the hood, even with a nice big window in the middle. The other issue is if I want a window over the sink, it might look odd not to have one where the rangetop is, but of course not putting one there. Also, the dish storage in the island is now pretty far from the snack/coffee counter. I tried to keep the latter area, with the 2nd (small) sink, from interfering with the cooking zone.

    I'm also testing putting the 30" convection oven in the island in this scenario, and the 24" CSO on the perimeter wall. I do occasionally start something on the stove and finish it in the oven, so there is logic to having them near each other. The m/w is in a drawer in the island near the smaller sink.






    The second scenario tests leaving the large island sink as clean-up spot with the 2nd sink as prep spot. But, I still want that second sink to be for snacks/coffee/drinks, so I would plan to use the large island sink for prep unless and until that becomes too difficult physically. That makes storage planning difficult. Things I'd want to store near the main sink won't be convenient for the second sink, etc. I have the prep utensils, equipment, and cutting boards on the east perimeter, but if I'm prepping at the main sink, I'd probably put them behind me. (I didn't try to label everything here.) In this setup, there is no issue with lack of symmetry of the rangetop hood or windows. I stacked both ovens to the left of the stovetop so they don't open at the corner of the L.





    It's helpful for me to try out these different set-ups, even if I find out that neither one seems completely workable, at least as I'm imagining them.


  • cpartist
    last month
    last modified: last month

    The way you have it now, you don't have enough room on the island for a prep sink. The minimum prep space is 30" is I recall and honestly anything less than 42" is really too narrow. With only 7' width, that only gives you 84". You need 24" for the DW and you don't want to prep over the DW. so that leaves you with 60". If you do a 30" sink, that gives you the bare minimum of 30" for prep.

    Additionally an island that is 6'8" is basically useless in the middle. You can't reach the middle unless you climb up on the counter to put stuff there or clean it. See how far you can actually reach and you'll see what I mean.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    cpartist, you are correct. I wasn't thinking about it that way. I was thinking the sink takes up 3' and I have 4' of prep space, but that's not true with the sink in the middle. Even if I ignore the presence of the d/w, 2ft on either side of a center sink is not enough. I need 4' to not feel cramped, especially for baking. Only way to get that in the island is to off-center the sink. But then the dw is still taking up half that 4' area and the sink is too close to the edge of the counter. In my current kitchen, i have somewhat more than 4' of main prep space between sink and stove (which is around the bend of the L). But the d/w is part of that, so if someone needs the d/w, i move over 2' and still have about 3' to work. Then there's a fun dance move where I jump around the open dishwasher to access the sink for a sec. Starting from scratch, I shouldn't have to do any of that.


    With that in mind, some version of the first of the two layouts above is the better one--with sink and stove on back wall, and d/w to left of sink, out of the main prep counter area. Second sink could go in the island, but around the east side of it, near the coffee bar. Or it could stay where it is at the bottom of the L.

  • cpartist
    last month

    I'm posting what is basically my kitchen as is now with some slight modifications that were made by the cabinet maker, but this should give you a pretty good idea to maybe help you. My island is also 84" or close to that.

    I must say this is one of 2 kitchens I've had in my life that just works and I think it's because how it flows so easily. The other kitchen that worked was 1/2 the size but it too went from fridge to sink to prep to stovetop, except that one didn't have a second sink or an island. It was in my first house and after we moved from that house, I couldn't understand why I found cooking such a chore again in subsequent homes. Now once again with a well designed kitchen, I understand!


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  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    cpartist, thank you so much! This is super helpful, and I will take a careful look at your plan.

    I just got an update to our design. They widened the kitchen by a couple of feet, made the island 9ftx4ft and put the sink off-center, d/w to the right of the sink. That gives me 4' of prep to the left of the sink, which is a lot better. Not sure how it works with the rest of the plan yet, though.

  • cpartist
    last month

    That does sound better.

    Do you have anyone else ever help you in the kitchen?

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    cpartist, I think it is better with a larger island and with the east entrance closed up. They seem to be adding a lower table attached to the island? I don't know what that is, but I think I need to eliminate it. I'm not sure I need that much counter on the back wall, either, i just need things to be in the right places. They're showing the ovens in an awkward spot and probably the fridge, too, but all of that can be changed. I wonder if moving the fridge to the bottom of the L will make it too far away. I need to decide be sure of the rangetop location, because that impacts window placement, etc., although rigth now the windows are not symmetrical.


    Others help regularly with clean-up in the kitchen and occasionally with prep. I do most of the cooking. There are other family members who like to cook and bake, and at times they like to take over the kitchen, which is great, but they're only around sporadically.


    Here's the update:




  • cpartist
    last month

    Honestly I think your kitchen is now almost too big. Fridge won't be too far away moved to the bottom of the L and yes the oven is awkward and breaks up counter space where it is. Never have an architect design a kitchen. They mostly don't have a clue.

    Here is one idea that I think works better and you could possibly still have it work with a smaller kitchen. Especially moving the cleanup sink off the island. This way you can make the island smaller.

    I did not add uppers or change windows. That's for you and your architect to determine.

    Notice on the left side of the island as we're viewing it now, there is only 3' and that's because it's a passageway and not a work zone. You need as close to 4' as possible in your work aisles. It's exactly 4' where indicated and between the DW and island it's about 2" less than 4'. By shortening the island just a bit, you could then make sure it's 4' between island and where dw and fridge are.

    The other advantage is your breakfast area is now wider and you can have room to even turn the table

    I do have another idea which I'll do now and then post.


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  • cpartist
    last month

    Here is my other idea. It turns the island around and it makes the kitchen narrower, so instead of 20' long it's now about 16' long. Obviously you can of course make it even wider if you want more cabinets, etc.

    So now the fridge is closer to the breakfast room where I assume the majority of your meals will be. Of course now it's further from the dining room but as is right now, the dining room is quite far anyway.

    You now have a coffee/toaster/microwave/drinks area to the left of the fridge and your cleanup sink is along the back wall. This way when you're prepping someone else can be doing dishes etc. Another thought is to make the coffee area smaller, and put a drawer to the left of the dw for dishes. Or you can put dishes opposite the dw on the island on that end. Make a drawer there.

    Yes the island is smaller, but you still have plenty of space for prep to the right of the prep sink and secondary space on either side of the cooktop.

    The oven is near the cooktop so if you need to move something from cooktop to oven, it's right there.

    Again, I didn't put uppers in or move windows. That's for you to decide.

    There is room for at least 3 seats at the island too.



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  • cpartist
    last month

    Actually looking at it now, I'd probably move the sink on the island up more towards the fridge so you could prep to the left of the sink, since we take food out of the fridge and bring it to one side of the sink before washing.

  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    cpartist, these are both great options--thank you for drawing them up! I agree, i don't look to an architect for kitchen design, which is why I've insisted that i need to meet the KD now. I can't sign off on the locations of appliances and windows until I do. I suspect the architect is concerned that the KD will try to capture more area for the kitchen. I think the opposite will be true, if they're any good.


    Although I like the idea of turning the island, I have a slight preference for keeping the stove on that back wall where the most intense cooking/prep will be farther from view from the main social area/great room. But, i wonder if it's better to hide the d/w and clean-up from view.


    One thing, I'm concerned that in both scenarios, the open d/w could interfere with prep access to the fridge. You do or don't think the fridge is too far if it's at the bottom of the L and the prep sink is in the island? If not, I might move it even farther south on that east run, and I might put a south-facing tall shallow cabinet next to it.


    I am also thinking about taking the prep sink out of the island altogether and keeping the island smaller. It will help for me to be able to review all of these options with a KD.

  • cpartist
    last month

    One thing, I'm concerned that in both scenarios, the open d/w could interfere with prep access to the fridge.

    That's why the aisles need to be at least 4' wide. With my 4' wide aisle I can have the DW door down and still open my drawer across from it completely, or walk around the DW.

    You do or don't think the fridge is too far if it's at the bottom of the L and the prep sink is in the island? If not, I might move it even farther south on that east run, and I might put a south-facing tall shallow cabinet next to it.

    I don't think so since it's just a question of turning and laying it onto the island. Do a mockup in terms of steps to see what works best for you.

    When you say you'll put a tall cabinet next to it, I hope you mean on the outside edge.

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  • 2rickies
    Original Author
    last month

    Yes, that's what i mean, the outside edge. I have a cabinet like that now, because i have a full-depth fridge. We built the cab around it so it wouldn't stick out. The top half has glass doors and display stuff, and the bottom half is shallow pantry space. It's probably the most convenient cabinet in my current kitchen.


    I see what you mean about the 4' aisles. That makes sense. My current dw aisle is barely 3ft, so it's a problem.