Please help with awkward kitchen layout (1890s home) - Updates!
Edited to add updates & cabinet renderings.
Thank you again for your ideas and suggestions on my original post (below). We decided to lose the island and are going to build a counter-height table with a large apron that has 4 drawers. This is similar to what we are planning to build:
Losing the island allows us to have a good-sized pantry in the corner. Question: is it better to go with two smaller pantry cabinets side-by-side or one larger pantry? We're considering one 48" pantry instead of two side-by-side 30" pantries so we have a little wall space.
Our plumber has assured us we can either figure out a radiant hydronic system or suggested an electric radiant mat under a wood floor (any experience with either of those? Please let me know!), or we can move the radiator between the two windows in the kitchen.
We are looking for a classic, timeless tone for the kitchen. We are planning to stay here for the rest of our lives, if possible, and don't want to renovate the kitchen again.
We are working with Cabinet Joint on RTA inset wood cabinets in the main kitchen and white cabinets in the skullery. We have white painted cabinets now and I dislike them, so I hope I don't regret that. Kitchen countertops will be soapstone and we're planning to have a soapstone top installed on the table. We'll use butcherblock countertops in the skullery.
A couple of notes about the cabinet rendering: upper cabinets will go up to the ceiling and (except for the over-fridge cab) will be the same depth as the cabinet above the microwave. I think we'll need to lose the lazy susan in the corner because there is likely not enough space for a reasonable opening so we may end up with a blind corner cabinet. We are in the process of finalizing the measurements and the cabinet design.
Recommendations for medium wood-tone cabinets and paint colors that coordinate with the cabinets, soapstone & brass lights would be helpful. I like the BM Historical paint colors.
We will be looking for under cabinet lighting next. Photos of the lights we bought are below as well.
Thank you for your ideas, thoughts and comments!
Main kitchen area:
Skullery - right side is a pass through to the built-in in the dining room.
Skullery - desk area with hallway to the right.
Lights for above kitchen sink and ceiling light in pantry:
Light for above kitchen table:
Original post:
Thank you again for all the comments, advice and encouragement. I appreciate hearing that a functional kitchen can be achieved even in an old house with a weird layout.
First floor layout (not to scale):
Kitchen with dimensions labeled, but not drawn to scale:
After we measured the space including the closets we realized that we may be able to get an L-shaped kitchen if we lose the current doorway to the bathroom/mudroom, which is a possibility. We would need to create a hallway to the bathroom/mudroom through the scullery/butler's pantry and would lose the countertop that is shown below the chimney in the first floor layout. We planned to take down the chimney anyway.
New L-shaped layout idea:
We are a family of four with two young kids (6 & 7). We cook & eat at home together pretty much every night. Our kitchen is also used for schoolwork & kids art projects, etc. and is definitely the heart of our home. I prefer sitting at a kitchen table and don't want to be lined up at an island for eating, but would compromise for an L shaped island for seating. We need 4 seats at the island. We have a basement and are not on a slab. The ceiling height in the main kitchen is 9 ft. and 8 ft in the scullery. We don't know if the wall above the closets is load-bearing, but believe that it is. The wall above the current range is load bearing.
Appliances we're considering:
LG Fridge (narrower to fit into 36" cabinetry) : Dims: 32-3/4" width x 35-1/2" depth x 69-7/8" height
If we need a counter-depth fridge: GE Fridge
Range: Dims: Standard height; 31.5" width and the cooktop goes over the countertop on the R/L sides
Microwave (we've been thinking over-the-range, but may be able to accommodate one on an upper shelf. We don't want below the counter or a drawer.)
Dishwasher: Bosch something or other. Standard size
Sink: double bowl undermount. If we have the sink at the island, we would likely use something like this trash pullout under the sink so we can fit a seat at the end of the island. My spouse thinks having the DW and sink in the island will be tight and said he doesn't mind a sink that faces the wall, but I'm not sure about that?? He does most of the cleanup so his words carry weight. Sort of like this one, maybe.
Original post:
We are trying to figure out a new layout for our kitchen renovation in an 1890s awkward kitchen. We'd don't want to do an addition and I would prefer not to open up the kitchen to the living room and dining room. We need to keep the entry to the bathroom/mudroom and the entrance to the right of the closets. The three windows are 60" tall and 18" off the floor and we'd like to keep them as they're original.
The image shows our current layout. The main kitchen area is about 13'x13' and the butler's pantry is 8'x7' or so. Our first thought was to move the appliances into butler's pantry with the fridge, dw, & sink on one wall and the range next to pass through on the opposite wall. We would then extend the countertop from the sink to the right with a long peninsula extending into the main kitchen area. Our next thought was to have the dw & sink more or less where they are with the same peninsula extending to the right, range next to the pass through, and build in the fridge where it is with a pantry to the right (we'd need to lose the radiator in the corner). I'd love to use the big area for the main kitchen and keep the butler's pantry separate, if that is possible, but there are just so many openings! Your suggestions are appreciated & please let me know if additional photos would be helpful. Thanks!
Comments (28)
Ruth
2 years agoRuth
2 years agoRelated Discussions
We bought a historic (1890's) home today :)
Comments (21)Brick your points are why we aren't worried about the inspection. I've been in mortgage lending for years and frankly could probably inspect a home bettter myself than a "licensed" inspector in many states. That said, this property is actually being used for a professional purpose and has had to spend significant amounts of money to bring their plumbing and wiring up to code for insurance and licensing purposes. I'd trust a county electrical inspector's report any day over a general home inspector. :) IMO it's a bonus worth paying for ;) A great renovation...from the walls to the wires to the plumbing is worth it's weight in gold..if not more so!...See MorePlease help design my AWKWARD kitchen! :)
Comments (150)Hey Jillius! I believe the ceiling height (where you pointed) is the same as the kitchen, but I'll double check when I get into the house. Good point about the head space remaining the same due to the design of the staircases.. duh, I should've known that. :) I'm struggling to wrap my head around what I'd do here though.. level the floor, add 2 steps (up) from the basement, move the kitchen doorway over, and add 2 steps (down) from the kitchen to the great room? The benefit is that this increases the 7' width to 8'. However, since the stairs and exterior walls constrain any more opening, changing the back stairs area probably isn't enough for a U or L-shape, huh? I just hate facing walls while I'm in the kitchen (cooking, cleaning, and/or prepping). But I know galley makes the most sense.. Here are actual measurements I took (red are walls I'm contemplating removing). Here is another view of the backstair case area, while standing on the basement steps: The brown skinny door on the left next to the kitchen steps is a closet/pantry thing. View from standing in the great room looking toward kitchen: View in kitchen:...See MoreThose darn corners - Please help with my awkward kitchen layout!
Comments (8)Thanks, everyone, for your ideas so far! Stan Z - Nixing the upper corner cab is an interesting idea! I love the balance it would bring to that wall. I'm just not sure if I would be able to reach everything, and I'm paranoid about not having enough storage (especially if the W/D goes in the "pantry"). Do you think it would look better if I put another upper cabinet to the right of the stove (instead of open shelves) to balance that out? If I end up with the second design (corner Susan and larger 24" to the right of the stove) I was planning on putting an upper there. I've definitely gone back and forth on the peninsula thing... but we're pretty set on keeping a separate dining room. desertsteph - sorry about the measurements on the floorplan not showing up well! I didn't realize the image would post so small. I will simplify the drawing so it's easier to read once I get home. The curved line is a door (in my terrible drafting skills). Those are the stairs to the second floor, and the stairs to the basement are underneath it (enter through the dining room). I just included that to show that the flow of traffic is going in that direction. The kitchen originally had the opening on the other side, but I think it makes more sense to direct the traffic on that side. No bathroom on the first floor, unfortunately, but we have a street level walkout basement with another bathroom. There really isn't space for one on the first floor, and probably less than half the houses in the neighborhood have added one, so I'm not too worried about it. mgmum - Switching the DW and sink is a definite possibility. I thought if I kept the bar seating there I thought it would be better to have the dishwasher next to it instead of the sink (since we probably wouldn't be loading the dishwasher while someone is there, but we might be working at the sink). Maybe that's just not true, though. That is an exterior wall by the bar - it's a garden window looking out at the patio (the shape in the mockup is correct but I couldn't figure out how to make the panes see through). buehl - I'm open to the sink going somewhere other than by the window... it just seems like the most obvious place that people think is "correct". I've never had a dishwasher so I keep thinking in terms of my old paradigm. It's going to be an adjustment (the good kind!). Honestly the window doesn't have a great view - it looks at the brick wall of the house across the street. I'm more concerned about the dishwasher door or sink being too close to the breakfast bar if someone is sitting there and snacking or chatting with the cook. At first I was being stubborn about the blind corner, but once I realized it might not fit into the design, I began to think that a corner Susan would be better anyway. I'm kind of the same size as a small child, but that sounds like a royal pain to deal with. I think I just got dazzled by the fancy pullout at Ikea! Maybe it's better to void the corner to fix the issue of the stove and sink being too close. I'll take another look at what that would look like. mama goose_gw zn6OH - Yes, that window is pre-existing. It's actually not a pass through and doesn't even open except a little vent at the top! It's not the highest quality window but I don't mind it and would probably prefer to change it out later down the road to save some money. It does seem like one of those "while you're at it" things, though... it's probably more cost effective to do everything at once if I can scrape up some more. I do like your U shape design a lot, but I was reeeeeally hoping to put some seating in the kitchen since the dining room is separate. Good point about the fridge - for some reason I was thinking it would stick out enough (though it definitely doesn't the way I drew it) or we would put a filler piece there to allow it to open. I'll have to double check on that. lavender_lass - You just said the magic word! I blew my bathroom budget by a mile because I went on a tiling spree... but I'll probably wait to tile the kitchen and DIY it later on, so that might make it feasible. I do love those feature tile walls in a kitchen! Is the breakfast bar what's screwing me up here? Do I need to give up that dream?? Would people think I made a giant mistake if the sink is still under the window but not centered? I could tell that idea gave my contractor a twitch when I brought it up!...See Moresmall house: main floor and kitchen layout help please!
Comments (42)Pretty mockup Sena! I finally got a change to revisit this thread. I kept on thinking about how to get the freezer column out of the laundry and actually within the kitchen space. Especially, since it looks like you might be planning for an all fridge column to pair with it? If you were doing a normal 36” french door fridge, and the column was just for additional freezer space, that would not bother me. But, I would not like to walk that far to my only freezer. One example, if I need to grab frozen fruit to make my daily smoothie. I feel like you should be able to find space for it somewhere because the kitchen and pantry combined should be enough space. I learned here from Buehl, a freezer or fridge in the pantry is not a great idea because of the heat it produces, but I wonder if it might be okay as long as you kept the pocket door or narrow double swing doors open most of the time? I would want to leave the door open anyways since it has the nice window view straight across from the door. Here is one idea I had. The pantry layout could go several ways, depends on whether you are ok having a counter across the low window. i would want to keep the long run of counter myself. You could even add a small prep sink if you wanted. So…. if you cannot tell, I am in love with your backyard view! I keep wanting to make that whole wall endless windows! 🥰 I also thought the laundry and powder room needed to shrink so the dining table had some breathing room around it. I made the table a 36” wide by 6’ long. It could have a leaf that you could remove so it is a smaller table for 4 most times. The one table that you drew just looked so narrow to me, but I wasn’t quite sure what you had in mind. I moved your bigger window over more to the right, added a window to where the existing door to the deck was, and then matched that window size on the other side. I wasn’t positive if a couple saddle style stools would fit, but I also really wanted some seats at the peninsula! For the low window in the pantry, if you don’t want to raise the window up above the counter, this was sort of what I had in mind. I don’t think it would look bad from the outside at all. Of course, you would have it in your own style. Here was an idea if you wanted to add a small prep sink in front of the window. Below is a kitchen and pantry remodel from the blog Chris loves Julia where they put the freezer column in the pantry and fridge column in the kitchen proper. I was imagining your peninsula on the left side of the doorway and then instead seeing the freezer and shelves, you would see the low window with countertop going across. Freezer more to the left. But if you prefer to leave the window with nothing blocking it, that would look very pretty too. Maybe like this? Sorry, I am definitely not sure the best way to lay it out with the window free and clear. Anyways, just thought I would throw this one out for kicks!...See MoreJeanne Cardwell
2 years ago
apple_pie_order
2 years agoBuehl
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoWelcome to the Kitchens Forum _lmnop!
We'd like to help, but without measurements, we cannot give you good advice -- it's all just guess work. So, could you please post a fully-measured layout of the space as well as a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen is on?
The following is an excerpt from the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread.
Please post a fully-measured layout of the space under consideration and a sketch of the entire floor. Both can be either hand-drawn, computer generated, or drawn up with computer/app tools.By "fully-measured", we mean a layout with the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway labeled. See a sample below. If something cannot be moved or changed, label it precisely on your layout (see post in sample) and tell us why it cannot be moved/changed -- we may have some ideas for you.
The sketch of the entire floor lets us see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of the home. It doesn't have to be to-scale, but it should accurately show how the rooms relate to each other and should include all interior & exterior doors. In addition, it will help us see how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen. Label the front entry and family entry. The family entry is usually a garage or side entry, but it might not be. It's helpful to know which door you use to bring in groceries.
Regardless of how you draw it up (by hand, computer, etc.), please be sure all measurements are labeled. (Note: Computer generated layouts often lack key measurements and, sometimes, measure to/from things like the middle of a wall or the middle of a window. Neither are useful. Measure each item and the distances between each item.)
Other questions...
- Tell us about you and your family and how you plan to use your Kitchen. All-adults? Empty Nesters? Children (now or in the future)?
- What appliances (& their sizes) do you plan to have?
- Where are you flexible? Can walls/windows/doors/doorways change (move, change size, add, delete)? (You've answered about the windows, but can the doors change in any way -- move, widen, make smaller, merge? I don't know their sizes or how/where they're situated in each room.)
- Do you have a basement under the Kitchen or are you on a slab?
cawaps
2 years agoptmatthews
2 years agomainenell
2 years ago
mama goose_gw zn6OH
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoWithout exact measurements, but using 13' x 13', here's a plan which expounds on a couple of ideas already mentioned. Reconfigure the closets to house the fridge, ROTS pantry, and a MW/coffee/snack area (or put the MW and coffee in the butler's pantry and surround the fridge with ROTS), and use an island with a prep sink. Keep the clean-up sink in the butler's pantry, with prep/cooking in the main kitchen. It's not ideal, but given all the entries and other constraints, it will work.
Ruth
2 years ago_lmnop
2 years ago_lmnop
2 years ago
Margie Kieper
2 years agoMargie Kieper
2 years ago
PRODominique Michelle Vidal
2 years agocawaps
2 years ago_lmnop
2 years agomama goose_gw zn6OH
2 years agoThe layout I posted would work with the L, but if the clean-up sink is in the scullery, where would you store dishes? What is the exact measurement of the whole kitchen area, not just the cabinet runs?
Corner appliances pantries:
_lmnop
2 years agomama goose_gw zn6OH, thank you for the ideas! Because it seems too tight for the island to have the sink & DW with adequate space for 4 people, we think the sink & DW will have to face the wall. Not ideal, but we think we can make it work. Maybe something like this.
I updated the post with dimensions on the L-layout idea and here it is again:
We think we'd put the fridge & range against the longer wall with sink/DW on the shorter wall on the top. Island would have some storage and seating in an L or C if there is enough space.mama goose_gw zn6OH
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoHere's the plan on a grid where 1 square = 6". There seems to be a discrepancy for the measurement for the door at the top right, but that's not important if the overall width of the room (154") is correct.
You don't have space for a 6' island unless you extend it past the edge of the fridge--which is OK--most folks want the island to line up with the perimeter cab or be a few inches shorter. The red rectangle shows the longer option--keep in mind that you need 24" elbow space for each seat, so 6' would be the minimum. (See NKBA guidelines link below.)
I don't know how near a cabinet can be placed to the rad, but if the island is only 63", or so, you can have a tall 18"--24" deep cabinet on the bottom wall, depending on how wide you want the aisle. If island extends past the fridge, then the tall cab would need to be shallower.
You don't have the minimum recommended prep space between the sink and range. The range can be moved toward the fridge, but I think you need to maintain at least 18" there. It won't make a difference in counter space, but you could void the base corner, and use a drawer base on each wall, which would eliminate the narrow cabinet to the right of the range. Trash could go in a pull-out below the sink.
_lmnop
2 years ago_lmnop
2 years agoapple_pie_order
2 years ago_lmnop
2 years ago_lmnop
2 years ago
cawaps