​Those stairs will result in a dining room too small for a 4 bedroom house. I think they should be located on the other side of the central wall, taking space from the bedroom side.  Instead of a walk in closet, switch to a reach in and you should be able to keep the space to just under 6 feet wide which still leaves a respectable almost 12 feet for the bedroom width.  If you were to start the stairs in the middle of the house and go toward the front, you could use the space under the stairs for a closet. It might make sense to remove the chimney to be able to reclaim that space instead of pushing into the living room. That depends on whether you need to put in a new furnace and water heater.

You should show some respect for the history, character, and fabric of this vintage home by leaving it alone. A four bedroom house with one bath? Have you checked the size of the ceiling joists? If they are undersized, there went your budget and profit on your flip.

The only way that plan will work is if you add an addition and the stairs are located there. They will swallow up too much room to do in the house as shown. And it would need another bathroom added. That much change will price the house out of the market at resale. Money loser.

Move on to a different house that’s already more of what you’re wantng.

Have you considered a metal circular stair. You would need a smaller foot print and much easier installation. Not sure of attic configuration put landing for circular stair probably could be located in a number of good spots on attic floor. Less overall expense too. For a flip, could work really well. Many styles available too.

Just one example.

I'm not a big fan of spiral staircases. They aren't very functional. Perhaps an elevator? That would definitely fit the character of the house, LOL.

Why not over the stairs to the basement? Maybe they could turn before the chimney.

Remember the rule of “flipping”. It’s not your house! As a potential first home for a buyer, a good way to set your property apart. Younger buyers will view it as exciting and unique. A elevator would be great but more costly. It is no simple task putting a staircase into an existing home. All new codes will apply and they take up a large amount of floor space. I would suggest you consult with real estate agents in this area to see what buyers are looking for. Do all your fixes on existing spaces and watch market for pricing and get on market ASAP.

I am in a market which spent a few years with prices similar to the price you mention.  We made some money on older two bedroom houses bought cheap and rehabbed. I found that rehabs which included moving walls and adding new features weren't very profitable once the value of our unpaid labor was figured in. We found the most value in improving the existing house with upgraded plumbing and electrical…easy in a one story house with basement.  Good quality workmanship and avoiding low end material is essential. We have a good local ReStore and have found some great deals there and at demolition sales. Sinks, faucets, cabinets and light fixtures  

You have to be careful when trying to flip old houses as the natural tendency is to decide to fix the little issues. But, when you start the fix, you find one thing leads to another and suddenly, it isn't such a little problem. Refinishing floors, fixing plaster cracks, and a complete paint job inside and out is the biggest impact. Don't put in any new windows unless the existing just can't be fixed. Replacing windows piecemeal is a bad idea and doing all of them is too expensive for a flip. Same goes for interior doors and trim--doing it right costs too much and partial replacement just highlights the items which haven't been addressed. Some issues and possibilities are best left for a long term owner so advertise huge attic for possible added living space!

@palimpsest: I would love to put them over the basement stairs, but the porch is actually exterior to the house, though fully enclosed/weathertight. So we would have to remove brick in order to create access. Bedroom 1’s closet could actually be relocated to its south wall, so that doesn’t have the same issue as bedroom 2. And that run would take us smack into the chimney as well.

@3onthetree: that’s an interesting concept. It uses some of the wasted hall space. I assume you’d put the bedroom closet under the stairs? I do need 12.5 feet of run, however, if I want to meet codes. Which I would like to do if at all possible.

My version is up to you to make the dimensions work (and structural framing). It fits better with what the style of house appears to be, in that it is tucked away, not front and center dividing the Living Room as was not done until the late 20th century. You can extend the number of lower steps out as far into the Dining as allows circulation/visual sightline past, and use winder steps at the corner as see fit.

I've cued off 3onthetree's hall reconfiguration and played with multiple iterations of that for the last 2 1/2 hours sitting on a plane. And thanks for answering my unwritten question about "why not poking into the LR?"

What about this one:

I think it actually provides better flexibility in the use of the attic space because it comes up in the corner. And it runs along the load-bearing wall, so that means we wouldn't have to cut into it. And a straight run without landings is the smallest footprint.

I also thought this might work:

But I would have to make the stair run shorter than code (shorter treads or taller risers), or else put an L at the end, and then it comes out past the attic wall. So probably a no-go.

Is the chimney that you show actually functional, or will you be re doing the heating system for the home? If it can be removed, you can stack the stairs to the attic over the stairs to the basement. But, as many have pointed out, adding two bedrooms upstairs without access to a bathroom is not a good idea. Perhaps creating a Master suite upstairs could work. A bedroom towards the front, and a bath and closet towards the rear. Just a suggestion….

LL: Thanks for your voice of experience. We have rehabbed several homes, one of them old, but this is our first one that we don't intend to live in first. We are trying hard to balance cost and value-added. You make a good point about making back more on the value of our labor.

I ran comps and a fixed up 2/1 vs 3/2 has a delta of $20-30K. And it will cost us way less than that to add stairs and finish off the attic details. That's what's driving us in that direction on this one. If we can do it without destroying the character of the home.

Restoring the windows....that's a whole other ballgame. A pro wants around $600 per window, with a 1-2 year wait time. I know I could DIY, but I don't know how long that would take on evenings and weekends. There are 32. freaking. windows.

Once you get in the house, you'll have to do exact and better measurements and see the framing. The stair should work easily whichever way the old ceiling joists span (shown in BROWN or PINK) but a couple of your schemes could be problematic with framing. Stair runs parallel to framing would be better. FWIW most species of 2x8@12"oc actual size can span around 14'-15' for bedrooms upstairs.

If I've done my math right, I add up ~12'-6" (76"+36"+13") as available run. With winders (a last resort crutch, but common in many period houses) you can fit 15T/14R in about 11'-4"ish, with an 'L' of 2 steps clearing under a 9' ceiling. So verifying all dimensions (e.g. landing in front of upstairs chimney, exact ceiling height) some version of this probably can be worked in and abide by a more period design language.

Don't know what you bought it for, but keep as an option that the upstairs remain open, and buyers can envision their space needs so you don't have to spend the money building it out.

The joists run longways (brown line) and the north attic wall is even with the chimney. Attic is 12’ wide. Ceilings are 9’ high. All those dims were measured/observed.

Why would you opt for parallel with the joists instead of the straight run option? Just for less work on the reframing of joists? It would require installing a double joist to butt all the floor joists into, but we can remove the flooring (runs E-W) and do that from above. I would be willing to do a little more work if it provided a much better solution. I.e., straight run instead of winders.

Good point on too much finishing of the attic. It might be best bang for the buck if we just white box it, with a closet so we can call it a bedroom. There isn’t any added resale value for a 4/2 vs a 3/2 in the comps I saw.

@ptreckel: sorry I didn’t see your response earlier. We are replacing the roof, and there is central air and heat, so it’s an option to remove the chimney, and if it was less destructive than moving walls, it’s an option.

However the stair stacking is problematic because the entry would have to be through the exterior wall on the porch. That seems very awkward.

(Unless you plan on incorporating the back porch into your kitchen?)

I will be amazed if this can be done cost effectively enough to make money on a flip, including the value of owner labor.

I suggest taking the space for the stairs from one of the bedrooms, making one large master bath on first floor, and two smaller bedrooms with a bath upstairs. No one really wants to run to the basement to use a toilet. And unless the foundation has been redone, it is probably a pretty crummy basement if it is built in 1900. Around here that is a #$&&# rock foundation with a really thin (like 1”) cement floor.

Have you attempted to total up the costs of finishing the attic space? Finishing the floor, running supply and return ducts, adding electrical, framing, insulation, drywall and paint are expensive. Even if you are doing the labor, the material costs have increased quite a bit since your last project.  It is a good homeowner project but not a money maker after you account for materials, utilities, selling expenses and property taxes. Plus, unless this becomes your primary residence for 2 years, you will owe income tax on whatever profit you manage to eke out. 

If you truly enjoy this work, it might be a good project. I don't enjoy the big projects as much now as I did in the past, whether that is due to getting older or simply having done more projects. There is just too many hours of grunt work for me; I like putting up a few pieces of drywall but I don't want to carry all those sheets up the stairs, take the scraps back down, mix enough batches of mud to tape out the whole space, etc. The motivation starts disappearing and the end doesn't seem anywhere soon and the whole thing becomes a drag that takes over from more enjoyable activities.

Incorporating the back porch into the kitchen would entail knocking out an exterior wall, building a proper foundation, etc. probably not a good idea for cost purposes on a flip.

Joe, I will take that as a challenge. :-). I guess it depends on how you value owner labor…$10 an hour or $100 an hour? And if our profit worked out to $50/hour, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth it, it just means we got paid $50/hr for our work.

The basement is actually solid. Way better than the one in our last (also old) house. But point taken that a bath in the attic is preferable to one in the basement. I need to figure out how drains would run through the existing walls to determine feasibility.

I haven’t done a detailed budget for the attic, but it has walls framed and covered in Masonite and T&G hardwood floors. So they just need insulation and drywall, a closet built, and possibly some electrical added. We do enjoy doing the work together, and work well as a team. I love transforming spaces into something more beautiful and functional.

And we are paying $20K for the house. We will see if we make any money, I guess. But I appreciate all of your advice about how to do it right and how to make judicious choices about what to do.

One caution is that if you buy a house for 20K and wish to sell for $120K+, your buyers may have a tough time getting a mortgage. Even after a year, the appraiser may question the price increase. I am currently selling a house I bought three years ago and the appraiser requested an explanation. In my case, I had bought it as a distressed property in a private transaction and put in lots of sweat equity to get it up to reasonable standard. Mine is still below median sq ft price of the area which was probably why it did get approved. 

You will need a mechanical chase to the attic for ductwork and plumbing can go there as well. One advantage of high ceilings is you can drop the ceiling on the main floor underneath the new bathroom and it won't be very noticeable. If it is a relatively small room, drop the ceiling of the entire room and most people won't even catch the change. Or, build a soffit on the main floor to hide the pipes. I once built fake columns between living room and dining room to hide the ductwork going upstairs.

I think we've got an option for the mechanical chase. The stairs, if they go straight up from the dining room, without the RH turn, can't hug the existing LR wall, because the attic wall is offset by 1-1.5 feet to the north. So the stairs will move up/north a smidge, and will leave a 1-1.5' pocket that we could run the mechanical up, emerging behind the attic wall upstairs.

And if we put an attic bathroom in the NE corner of the space, we could run the drain out the back along the joist bay and down through the bathroom north wall.

Love your creative hiding ideas, LL!

I believe you are still wanting, or pushing a derivative of the idea, of the stair in your scheme that runs parallel to the Living room wall. I would recommend just eliminating that thought entirely. The schemes I have provided, where a version (flip where you access up, winders or not, 'L' or not and length of 'L' legs, etc) of this stair location is a much better starting point. I have taken the time to illustrate for you.

- it negatively manipulates the existing bedroom layout and size.

- structurally a stair perpendicular to the framing will require a bearing wall, as that is now taking all the loads from the floor joists along the stair length. So down below in the basement, you would have to account for the support of this wall.

- upstairs it reduces the flexibility of available layouts for number of bedrooms, hampers layouts with a long skinny space, and limits opportunities for windows on one end. Compare that to a central stair, where you have large open space on either side with complete opportunity for windows and space flexibility.

Thanks for sticking with me through my thickheadedness on the stairs, 3OTT. The light bulb went on with your attic layout drawings, which I hadn't started contemplating. I was just thinking stairs in the corner gives the largest open space. But duh, then you waste half the space with a hallway getting back to the other end, and it's much more likely that a future owner will want 2 bedrooms or a bedroom and a bathroom as opposed to a big playroom or something.

"- structurally a stair perpendicular to the framing will require a bearing wall, as that is now taking all the loads from the floor joists along the stair length. So down below in the basement, you would have to account for the support of this wall."

Code citation please.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC refer to the framing diagram above for one of the OP's stair configurations. When cutting off the ends of floor joists to insert the stair, they can't just levitate magically in mid air. Refer to IRC Chapter 4, 5, 6, and 8. And here's another guide to framing: Framing 101

I did the math on the stairs and it looks like a 4-winder corner plus using the full 42" of space along the DR/LR wall gets us a stairway with code compliant treads and risers that give us a 3' landing at the top.

And we could probably widen it to span the whole width of the existing closet so we can re-use that framing without moving it.

"When cutting off the ends of floor joists to insert the stair, they can't just levitate magically in mid air."

Of course they can't, however, that doesn' mean they must have a wall built under them to support them. They can be framed to a header which transfers the load to a perpendicular header which carries the load to the foundation. No wall required.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC Ya think? Try to follow the comments, where the stair was proposed would be enclosed with new walls on both sides of the run.

A few of you on this forum continually pick and argue points that don't contribute to the threads, I think to try and show you have a bit of knowledge about something not in your wheelhouse.

Nice spam Leon.

3:

You said a stair perpendiculat to floor joists requires a bearing wall. It does not, as I've illustrated. This particular thread is irrelevant.

Well, the construction has begun. And I have a few questions.

Here's the dining room wall.

And here it is opened up into the closet:

Questions:

On this first few steps, from the dining room into the winder portion, what should we do on the left side? Open treads? Full-height wall? Half wall? What's period appropriate?

What finish should the treads and risers have? Main floor is oak, attic floor is pine.

Skirt board or just plain wall?

I would want it as open as possible so that you can get furniture up the stairs. We have a lovely duplex built about 1920 with actually a very nice set of stairs to the second floor. But because of ceiling clearance and the bathroom at the top of the stairs you can’t get a queen size box spring up the stairs.

Sure you can. Cut it in half longways without going through the padded top. Fold it, take it upstairs, unfold it, and cleat the severed stretchers back together with screws.

We got a nice surprise when we cracked open the ceiling for this stairwell. The load-bearing dining room wall is a full 24" farther out than the attic wall. I had estimated a foot or so. I quickly did some math to see if we could eliminate a winder, or have a top landing more than 3' deep. I calculated that if we had 126" from DR wall to stairwell header we could actually eliminate the winders and have a full landing down below.

And when we tore up the attic floor to access the structure, the existing header for the attic ladder is at 128" from that wall. What incredible luck! That eliminates the need to pull up more of the attic flooring to retro-fit the extra joists.

And the top landing will be over 4'!

The only thing that won't quite be code-compliant is that the headroom on the top stair from the DR will be 6'-6", 2" shy.

Hopefully we'll get it fully framed out next Saturday.

@joseph very clever solution. However, I don’t think my tenants will want to do that. Luckily, in 17 years there has only been one tenant who has had a problem with it. Don’t know what the tenant ended up doing. They lived in the apartment for 3 or 4 years and the box spring lived standing up in the dining room for a little while. Mostly we have students in the apartment.

We have stairs!

Lots of finishing left to make them pretty, but now we have decent access to finish the attic space.

And...I need your help on the downstairs reconfiguration. Space is a bit tighter than anticipated.

We punched a hole in the kitchen wall, and it turns out that was original, as the flooring is continuous to the hall. Straight ahead is the bathroom door, to the right needs to be the new bedroom door opening.

This bedroom wall is only 30" from inside corner to outside corner. We'll extend the wall across the stairwell (~37"), but that makes it a tough putt for fully opening the door.

And here's the former bedroom door, destined to become a closet door.

We have room for a 24" wide bedroom door. Obviously NOT ideal, but I measured some of our furniture and depth of the casework is all 18-21" so presumably stuff would still fit through the door.

The original closet door is 24" wide, so if we shift it towards the corner we will miss all but a couple inches of stringer in the upper corner.

Then there's the whole interfering swing deal with the bedroom and closet doors. Would it be too weird to in-swing the bedroom door to the left?

Recommendations to solve this conundrum? Or improve on our 24" clashing door scenario?

Ruh Roh. Remember when I said "it's up to you to make the dimensions work?" No worries, there might be a solution somewhere to get a 30" (32" rough opening) door in.

1. Did you construct 10" treads?

2. How much room do you need to slide the upper flight of the stair forward to allow a door to enter underneath, yet still have a clean "nook" of a ceiling? The amount of steps you lose by sliding it forward would relocate to the lower flight of stairs, so how much more room do you have to extend those along that little wing wall?

3. I see an HVAC register in the hall. That is not usually done, which tells me there could have been a different configuration of rooms instead of the bathroom there (a circa 1900 house probably didn't have a bathroom inside). So, is there space in the bathroom to move the bathroom door/wall in to allow more clearance for a bedroom door (whilst keeping the stair as is)? Is a bathroom remodel part of your flip scope?

4. Having 2 doors opening up into the backs of each other, especially when 1 door is a subservient function, is not a problem.

1. Yes, the treads are 10". Risers are 7 3/4".

2. Not understanding the "slide the stair forward" question. Towards the landing? Or away from the landing?

3. The bathroom is only 5x7. It will be remodeled, but I can't see shrinking down the 7' length any further. Bathroom photos and sketch here.

Stairs were towards the landing, pic perspective distorts dimensions available.

Don't know where you stand on layout of the bath remodel, but if keeping as is layout you have plenty of room to move the bath door wall. If you move fixtures to one wall and use a 18" pedestal vanity, you can get 6" by moving the bath door wall.

I can't put any more stairs on the "wing wall" of the dining room, because pushing that landing level out to be step #5 would make overhead clearance just under 6' unless I hacked up the ceiling there. The other stair modifications available are shorten the tread, increase the riser, or add winders. I don't like any of those, for safety reasons. It seems like a smaller door--and/or a smaller bathroom--is a lesser evil than that.

Oh the fun trade-offs in an old house.

I don't know the right answer. My initial thought was the main floor bedrooms are secondary rooms, so accept the 24 inch door. If you are hoping for a young family, the bathroom will need to be big enough for an adult to supervise a child.
However, after more consideration, second thought is to make the bathroom smaller and the bedroom door bigger for resale. A tiny bathroom is not out of the ordinary for a house that age but a 24 inch bedroom door is obviously smaller than the other bedroom. You won't be living in it and a nice master bath will keep the adults happy...they are signing the check.
Seems like you are making some good progress.  Everything is a tradeoff in any old house and trying to keep the costs down just adds another wrinkle.