What do you think of At Last?

I have At Last and while I really like it the blooms for me are shor lived .

How about Sedona or the new Double Easy Orange

There is a thread from Hoang ton featuring that one. It is a yummy bright orange

@oursteelers 8B PNW

I love the color of At Last but I wonder if it is a profuse bloomer and compact enough.

I'd love that "Flower Carpet" type coverage and compactness! In fact, I am kinda looking at Amber right now but I am not sure because it's more warm yellow/golden than sunset orange. That means a bit of mixture with coral pink, but nothing that turns to red.

@Kristine LeGault 8a pnw, Sedona seems to be a bit redder than I would like nd Double Easy a bit too beigy-yellow, and I am afraid it might end up like Rosie in terms of color evolution over the season :).

The color of Sweet Mademoiselle is the ball park, I guess.

I really like my Sweet Mademoiselle

She wants to be a tall girl though.

At Last is a shortie if that is what you are looking for.

Is Jolie too salmon color ?

I ask because you did not acquire Rosie in that pot:

Has this

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5894651/container-soils-water-movement-and-retention-4-11-20#n=120

been ruled out as the cause of her failure to thrive?

Yes it’s worth the effort to read and understand it.

@Kristine LeGault 8a pnw,

I like Jolie but in my experience, if the orange gets too vibrant, depending on the hue, it can look like good ol' red from a distance.

Jolie for me tends toward salmon color.

Are you looking for anything apricot like Soul Sister or do you want more saturated colors.

Kristine,

More saturated than Soul Sister, but not SO much that they would look bright red from a distance, which Jolie seems to do in some pics, but definitely not as much as Brilliant Veranda.

In fact, I can see in some pictures it is more salmon; I also realized I am probably looking for a combo of orange and pink, as opposed to uniform color, because this is what gives that sunset feel.

Somewhere in between fully saturated and pastel, there's that sweet spot "glowing sunset or sunrise," which probably comes from the pink/orange mixture first.

Adobe Sunrise is a great example o that color (the name says it all, I guess), but also Sweet Mademoiselle, Easy Does It, etc.

The trick is to find this + the smaller size/compact + very floriferous.

Might be tall order, which is why I was looking at the ground cover options (Drifts, Flower Carpet or Oso Easy) but I am not sure any have that color.

Obviously if I could get something compact with the ground-cover bloom coverage and big floribunda blooms...it's not like I am gonna say "no" to THAT! :)

Adobe sounds the closest to that but I am not sure about the BS resistance. I will need to do some research.

PS: You're right. It IS a salmon medium color. Very much an option. It's growing on me fast, especially that I realized Adobe might be too much like Easy Does It.

Fun in the sun does not meet your requirements for size, but I would just like to put it out there as a rose that does have a redder tone in the center and lighter orangish yellow on the outer petal. A nice surprise as I had been expecting yellow from the promotional pictures.

I love my oso-easy hot paprika. it is a really compact little thing and just glows. Small flowers but never stops blooming.

I just realized you said pink and orange. This one has more yellow, but it is a nice coral-ly orange to my eye.

@Sam CO z5,

I love it! It's just that I am looking for the more flully/double bloom, this is closer to single bloom, right?

I have a brand new Adobe sunrise and so far it hasnt been a great bloomer but that is because the soil in that location isn't very good. But, the blooms that I did have were incredible

Very sunrise sunset

Yes, Severe, they are single flowers. It puts on quite a show and the bees love it. but I understand wanting the fluffier flowers for a front row container! Good luck in your quest. Hope you find the perfect one!

@rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ),

Just wanted to say I read it all.

Ironically, I remember doing my homework right before I prepared the soil foe Rosie and reading something very similar to this. Rosie's soil was based exactly on the 5:1:1 best practice, + lime and some fert. Hopefully I got the proportions right with the lime and the fert.

But I think I followed it almost to a T. I rememebr measuring the parts and all that.

By contrast, I had stuck Easy Does which had come in 5" pot, in a large pot with older soil left from other plants. I am pretty sure this was more compacted and peat-y.

Yet EDI did SO much better. So weird, very weird.

So I think I can rule out the soil thing.

When I repot I will certainly still follow the best practices (non-water retentive soil that is pine bark-based. I use "soil conditioner" but I understood it's roughly the same thing).

Overall, the lesson in the link was:

You want soil with good aeration, not peaty or compost-based because these will break down and turn into compacted pudding; sandy soil will do the same, become compacted.

Lots of air must get through the soil and that's achieved mainly with pine bark. And of course, we need to keep up with the watering requirements under these soil conditions, because the 5:1:1 soil does dry up quicker than peat and compost-based would.

Conclusion: don't use water-retentive, spongy soils just for your own convenience when you are not exactly a Watering Godess. Use pine bark-based. Don't be lazy with watering.

Did I get this right? :)

I mostly grow own-root roses and found that some prefer a bit dryer soil, and some others like moist soil. Sometimes when I see a rose struggling in the pot, I plant it into the ground, and it usually rebounds well.

, Feiy,

Unfortunately, my rose space is very limited and Im also trying to keep them at a manageable number, so they wont become a full-time job or two. In my area, even the few I have are so, if I were to pamper them by the textbook. :)

My goal,is to learn the trick that coaxes maximum bloom from few plants instead of building a large collection.

Sam, I love your Hot Paprika!! 🥰

Severe_Novice: I'm into orange roses, and when I asked Pat Henry of Roses Unlimited for CONSTANT BLOOMING, FRAGRANT, and most HEALTHY orange/pink roses, she recommends Kordes "Summer Sun" https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.61335.5

and Kordes "Heaven on Earth" https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.32626.2&tab=1

Container formula of 5:1:1 (5 parts pine bark, 1 part peat moss, 1 part perlite) is fantastic for Dr.Huey-rootstock in DRY & ALKALINE California but BAD for high-rain regions:

1) pine park pH is 4, but when soaked in acidic rain, it drops down to pH 2 to 3 (vinegar range). There's a discussion in fig forum about plants got killed with pine-bark mix. Roses break out in blackspot & lose all leaves when they can't cope with acidic rain (pH 4.5 here and in the East coast).

2) Container formula of 5:1:1 is not ideal for multiflora and tiny own-roots (both are cluster roots and prefer a moister mix). In contrast, chunky & woody Dr.Huey-rootstock prefers drier & fast-draining soil.

Click on below map to see pH of rain water across USA:

@strawchicago z5

If the classic 5:1:1 doesn't wok well for my region, then what should I do instead?

Maybe SOME bark but not as much?

What about this soil?

It's supposed to be all that and a bag of chips - a sort of compost but they say it's good for EVERYTHING, container planting including. My neighbor uses it on just about everything and he has nice a nice garden.

I got a big bag too this year so I can use it around the garden in the spring, but I wanted to use it for containers too.

It weighs quite a bit but at the same time it feels light in texture, hard to describe.

They say it helps with aeration and drainage and doesn't become compact.

And if not this facy soil, then peat-based?

If 5:1:1 is not for my region (we do get some rain here), I am not really sure what my soil for rose containers should be made of then.

I kinda liked using soil conditioner (pine park) because it's cheap.

I love what I have seen of Double Easy Orange, but you feel it's not quite the color you want. How about Abbaye de Cluny, if you can find it? Biggest drawback-- it might get too large for a pot. I loved Easy Does It, which proved to be a little tender for my climate and I removed it. I think it would be great in your slightly warmer zone. We were zone 6 for many years before becoming zone 7a. Diane

The first two pics are Abbaye de Cluny and the second two are Easy Does It. Diane

Diane: Gorgeous pics. thanks for the warning on the iffy hardiness of Easy does it, so glad that I didn't get for my zone 5.

Severe_Novice: the link you posted of your soil didn't show up. Houzz removes THE ENTIRE post if there's a link to Amazon & other sellers. Now I don't post links to products, I simply mention its name to avoid my entire post being deleted by Houzz.

@strawchicago z5,

In fact, I forgot to post it, it was not removed; but to avoid this situation: it is called Soil3.

If you google it, it comes up first.

If you could recommend a soil mix for my area (North Atlanta, 7b) I would greatly appreciate it.

Your opinion on using Soil3 (of which I have a very big bag enoug for the whole yard) is also very much welcome.

Or maybe a mixture of that and soil conditioner?

I'm in classic South: hot, humid, Black Spot galore, quite a bit of rain - and as you pointed out, a bit acidic, but we can also have some droughts.

BS is what seems to ail all of my roses because many become almost fully defoliated by September; some like Olivia Rose and Easy Does lose leaves just partially, but still quite a bit, and the very few summer blooms are pretty small on all.

For Goodness' sake, even the Coral Drifts, which are touted for amazing disease resistance - those too lost some leaves and have some BS. No rose alive, I don't care how "resistant," escapes the BS in this garden!

I wish I could promise that I will stick to a Spartan spray regimen, but I realized I can't.

One of my problems is that I get bitten with a vengeance by mosquitoes and all sorts of other microscopic creatures in the air.

In the summer so I don't exactly have a lot of incentive to be out there to fuss over roses, even when not much is going on. Never mind something always seems to happen.

So if I can make these roses stronger with better soil, so they can fight on their own, that would be really nice.

I am preparing to install Plum Perfect or Dee-LIsh in Rosie's old home (the large container), so info on soil for my area would be very much appreciated information. I thought I had figured it out with the "5:1:1 + lime + SRF", but apparently, not.

Also, do I REALLY, REALLY need to remove absolutely ALL existing soil from where Rosie lived for 2-3 years?

That container is SO large, I wouldn't mind getting away with just refreshing 2/3 of it or something.

But if you say: 'start perfectly anew' - I will comply. :)

Thank you in advance, straw!

I used Azomite to recondition previously used potting soil.

I can't remember which nursery grower recommended it but I always hate wasting soil so I thought that I would try it.

@Kristine LeGault 8a pnw,

What are the proportions? How much azomite is needed?

I just sprinkled some in.

The man showing this just used a handful . Maybe for your large planter a cup or 2.

This is my first time using it but the gardner I watched grows a lot of anuals and when he pulled the old plant, he put all of the soil from the pots into his wheelbarrow and added the Azomite to refresh it and added tbe new plants.

You can always take the old and mix a bag of new soil.

Agree with Kristine on Azomite. I tested it back in 2014 and posted pics of the results in Organic Rose forum. Back then Marie Pavie was 1.5 x 1.5', but with Azomite (1/2 cup around the bush) it grew to be 3' x 2.5', almost doubled in size. Azomite is mostly calcium with dozens of trace elements for growth.

Azomite was great for growth, but iffy on blooming. Since my clay is already alkaline dense clay, Azomite UP the pH more and made my soil harder, so I quit using it.

However, if your soil is fluffy & loamy that leaches out calcium, nitrogen, and trace elements, then Azomite is worth using for fast growth.

I find a cheaper source to re-vitalize soil: a bag of pea-gravel for $3 per 50 lb. It has different colors pebbles, rich in minerals from river-bed. Pea-gravel consists of mostly beige (calcium) & gray (dolomitic with magnesium), pink (potassium), and some rock phosphate (for phosphorus). Will post more on revitalizing old soil later.

I suppose the pea gravel would have to be quite fine/small - right?

@strawchicago z5,

Thank you so much, straw!

I'm not sure if you got a chance to take a look at that Soil3.

I am still not sure what proportions of what I should use in the next rose containers.

If not the much-talked-about 5:1:1 recipe because of our acidic rains, then what you use instead?

The guys at Soil3 tout it as being great for everything. Lawn, garden plants, and containers too.

Just plant in it, they say. Then again, they are the sellers - but neighbor uses it on everything and he does have a very nice yard. I haven't asked him if he used it in pots, but I suspect he does because I've never seen him with any other bag of soil mix.

He orders one huge yellow bag of Soil3 early in the Spring and that's it.

Here's what they mention under ingredients:

"Soil3 is humus compost comprised of grass clippings from our sod farm, wheat straw from our farm, and cow manure from a local dairy. We compost using a high heat method (160º) and add mycorrhizae. Beneficial microorganisms naturally colonize the compost as part of the process. You can use this compost as safe organic matter to improve your soil."

• Natural and safe way to build good soil structure
• Helps reduce compaction
• Improves aeration
• Neutralizes pH – that means the pH of an acidic soil will be raised into a better pH range; likewise an alkaline pH will be lowered into a better pH range for plant health
• Improves water retention in sandy soils; likewise improves drainage in compacted soils
• Increases nutrient retention
• Suppresses diseases in lawns and gardens by introducing microorganisms into the soil
• No sludge (a.k.a. biosolids, the new code word for human waste)
• No peanut hulls (peanut hulls carry a bacterial disease)
• No vermiculite, perlite, or bark fillers
• No peat filler (peat offers no benefits to plants, plus mining it destroys the fragile, ancient peat ecosystems)
• No large particles or mulch-like texture – Soil3 is thoroughly composted and finished by screening for a fine-grained texture
• No “killer compost” because the inputs were never treated with the class of persistent herbicides called pyridine carboxylic acids that contain picloram, clopyralid, aminopyralid, or aminocyclopyrachlor (Imprelis) – often found in horse manure

How much of this should I use for the container rose mix, if any? If none of this, then what?

Thank you so again, straw!

@Diane Brakefield,

I like Abbey, but I love EDI even more - which I already have.

Right now, I am thinking that the wisest thing would be to abstain from adding another orange and just place Easy Does It in Rosie's pot and call it a day. For now.

When I see a ton of blooms in the Spring and a reasonable amount in the summer too without terrible defoliation, maybe that's when I should add a second orange.

I took notes of all of suggestions and thank you all so much!

Severe - your pot is definitely not large. It's okay...but I would use a bigger pot. But, if it works for your other roses...then that's fine. :) I know we're in different areas/zones, etc...but I found that the gritty soil mixture didn't work for me. It killed a few of my roses.

This year, from all of my mistakes, I have 3 roses that still look like that. I hope for better for us next year. :)

rosecanadian,

If @strawchicago z5 gives me the green light :), I may use some of that Soil3 and some pine bark /soil conditioner as base in a 50/40 proportion, the rest perlite.

What kind of soil do you plant to use instead? I assume that when you say 'gritty,' you mean the texture the pine bark gives, right?

As for even bigger pot, 24" diameter is about as much as I can handle. :)

Sorry to hear about your challenges this year. Mine was, in fact, a better one compared to previous years (complete disaster and I almost gave up).

This year I made some progress, at least in Spring, just still not as good as I would hope, especially over the summer. Summers are brutal for roses here, and September very much counts as summer.

Severe - larger pots are easy with dollys (wheeled furniture moving things)...but no matter. :) :)

There's a forum here on Houzz for container growing (not just for roses)...and they have a gritty formula which basically lets the water flow through much faster...so roots don't rot. I tried a formula with peat moss and perlite...can't remember exactly...but there's even grittier formulas they have. Didn't do well at all. I keep trying different types of soil (great big 2 cubic yard bags that are delivered). The first such bag I got had all sorts of stuff in it that made the soil fluffy and rich. My roses did fabulous on that. Then they stopped making it, and I'm trying to find a place that replicates this to some extent. And this spring they brought it back...with some extra stuff in it. So...the ones I used that on are doing much better than m y other roses.

Hey, I'm glad to hear that you had a better year!! Yours sounds like mine this year...the year of rose hell. Truly disheartening. So I get what you mean about almost giving up. I had that conversation too. I'm hoping for better next year. :):)

@rosecanadian,

The Soil3 I mentioned above sounds very similar to the big bags with fluffy rich soil you mentioned. I just had one such big bag delivered the other day.

If you say they did so well in that kind of thing ... I look forward to using it on my roses too!

That's good news. Thank you.

Soil3 has composted grass clippings (NPK 5-1-1), wheat straw (NPK 1.3-0.3-2.3), and cow manure (highest in phosphorus plus lime added to deodorize). See excerpt from below link: "The actual amounts of N, P 2 O 5 and K 2 O contained in a ton of wheatstraw are 13, 3.3 and 23 pounds respectively, according to Michigan State University Extension bulletin."

Nutrients in wheat straw

I use grass clippings to break up my rock-hard clay, I also add pelletized lime, resulting in a fluffy mix. The high nitrogen in grass clippings and the lime made roses grow super tall (like 10 feet Princess Charlene de Monaco and 7 feet Sweet M.) Soil3 would be good for lawn due to its high-nitrogen and lime. Grass also has a good % of magnesium for moisture retention and magnesium is a co-factor for potassium to be available.

My experience of using both fresh bagged cow manure and dehydrated cow manure (Encap brand) is it's quite dry and high in phosphorus for tons of blooms, but the health isn't good. Potassium should be added when high phosphorus is used. Potassium is for disease-prevention.

Wheat straw has twice more potassium than nitrogen, and just a tiny bit of phosphorus. The biggest advantage of wheat straw is its fiber, which aerates soil and gives oxygen to roots. Wheat straw holds moisture longer than wood-chips, thus excellent in soil mix for roses.

CONCLUSION: Soil3 is high in organic matter and is balanced in nutrients, plus it's an airy & fluffy mix. Own-root roses will benefit from an airy & light mix. Roses grafted-on-Dr.Huey prefers fast draining soil, and will also benefit form this airy & fluffy mix. Roses grafted on Multiflora also prefer light & fluffy & airy soil, plus the added moisture of wheat straw.

Peat moss can hold water 10 times its weight. Texture of peat moss is dense for water-hog own-roots with glossy leaves, but bad for BS-prone own-roots. Too much peat moss is also bad grafted-on-Dr.Huey which prefers a faster-draining & drier mix.

The container which held roses grafted-on-Dr.Huey bought at store is mostly dry pine-bark (5 parts bark, 1 part peat moss, 1 part perlite, lime, plus slow-released granules).

The water-hog own-roots usually have glossy & shiny foliage and these like my soaking wet & very slow draining clay (Betty White, Savannah, Bolero, Evelyn, Orchid Romance, Pat Austin). Soil3 might be too dry for glossy leaves roses. Note the shiny & glossy foliage of Evelyn as 10th-year-own-root. Glossy leaves prefer a denser & wetter medium like clay or peat moss or alfalfa meal mix-in with Garden lime (has 12% magnesium for moisture retention).

Thank you, @strawchicago z5!

Much appreciated!

Oooh!!! What a beautiful Evelyn!!! Stunner!

I just wanted to add that I took Rosie out of the big pot and apparently, the reason she was not growing is because her roots were stunted and also had a bit of brown inside. Maybe rot?

She was slowly dying but I am not sure why. You can't have such small, undeveloped roots after 3 years.

I don't think the acidic pine bark in the soil mix killed her because at least one other rose has it too and all others are fine. Maybe she was a dud form the start because she never did well ?

I will never know.

Plum Perfect took her place. Given all the work I did to carry many lift-able batches of soil up the 5 steps of the raised deck ... this thing had better perform for his life in the Spring and hopefully, after that too, at leas to some extent.

A lesson learned:

- I refuse to grow anything in a container larger than 20 inches diameter on a raised deck.

The 24" may not even be considered very large for roses, but when you have to carry so much soil batch by batch up 5 steps, just so you can fill a monster pot, that's not exactly an incentive to grow roses in large pots.

What is the minimum diameter one can get away with for a floribunda on the smaller side?

What about small shrubs like Adobe Sunrise or Flower Carpet?

I read that roses like Belinda's Dream, Olivia Rose and Plum Perfect should work for pots but they still seem to grow big.

My Olivia is now getting close to 6ft, could be just fall growth? still annoying as they are on a front bed, maybe in pots it will be smaller.

how about moonlight in paris?! its such a beautiful rose

Your moonlight is gorgeous, @CeresMer Zone 7a NJ.

Is it in the front bed or in a pot? How tall does it grow?

My Olivia is certainly not 6 ft but she's still young. Yet she grew quite a bit for a pot:

long, lanky, spindly stems that can barely hold the bloom.

Next year it will get more lime. I wish I could promise more sun too, but I can't.

Then again, Belinda's Dream (own root) was like that too in her first year. This year she is sturdy, despite having been badly treated with three Supertunias in the same pot. Those lovely shameless invaders took over her almost completely. I finally yanked them out and I was able to see her - and she is holding tight and straight.

Your pretty petunias at the boom seem well behaved. What kind are they? :)

Severe - oh, you are so right!!! I wasn't thinking and thought that you were putting it on a ground-level patio. Hauling up pots/soils to a deck is not a fun thing to do. I can't think of sizes...I would only know by looking at a pot to see if it would work for a rose. Good question to ask on a new thread, because your question may get lost here. 20" sounds good...maybe you could even go smaller for a smaller rose??? Or you could try to grow miniature roses...and to get them to eye level...miniature climbers.

Ceres - beautiful, beautiful MiP rose bush!!! It's doing fabulously in your care!!