So I guess my question is - have you ever consciously decided to end a friendship and if so did you feel better or worse afterwards?

Yes. Very much like Jeb wrote about. I was somewhere, somehow, trained to love people as they are. Bad training. I finally had enough of the bad (after many years of giving years-in credence--you don't want to dump a friend, after all).

I had a friend who was prone to feeding off of, and creating dramatics, I suppose one could say; a vanilla way of putting it for public consumption. Through many years of dread on my part (screening phone calls for many years should have been a tip-off for me it’s time to let this one go), I finally learned the lesson I needed to: when you are around someone who makes you feel consistantly drained, bad and sad, end it. Don’t give your attention to them anymore. I’m a slow learn apparently.

When I ended the friendship I felt so much better. I felt lighter and free. I was not expecting that as I tossed and turned over this for too many years. I did go through a period of mourning as I did love this friend, but there was no making this work with myself intact as this was someone who needed to dwell and seemingly meditate on the five bad things going on in my or her life and refuse to focus, or even talk about the 95 good things happening—out of 100. It’s been three years now and I sorely regret not snuffing it out in the beginning. In the begining, we gave her the nick-name of Chicken Little, of "the sky is falling" fame. Hard lesson I had to learn. So much for loving people unconditionally. Perhaps unconditionally might mean, within reason? Or from a distance? Not sure. Still working through that part. I wish her well and also wish things could have been different, but she was stubborn and would not meet me half-way to having a positive discussion about anything under the sun.

Never say never. Hubby has 'friends' just as described above and hasn't eliminated them from his life.

People have different levels of tolerance, IMPE.

My MIL and a "friend" that took me a long time to recognize was a user of people. With my MIL I waited until my kids were in their late teens before I told my DH I no longer wanted to see her. For me she was toxic and if she was coming over to our house my parents always were there to act as a buffer for me. But I waited until the kids were older as I wanted them to be old enough to build their own relationship with her if they so choose. As was noted above as soon as I cut ties it was like a great weight was lifted and I could physically and mentally feel the difference.

Most of my friends used to be university friends but now most of them are neighbourhood friends and yes, our social time (especially during covid) consists of running and hiking together with lots of talking.

I am ending one right now, or at least for the past month. I gave her a place to live, only charging her what it cost me to have her here, I loaned her money when she needed it, gave her things, my family helped her get a car, plus more. When I finally had all I could stand I told her if she didn't like it she can get out. Now a big feud is happening and its costing me money for her to be here. She is very vindictive person. And it seems like the law is on her side (squatters right) I am at wits end!

Five years ago, I also ended a long friendship with an immature, negative "victim", I'd known for four years during high school fifty years ago. I'd felt bad for her as she is lonely (never married/no kids) and has very little money (her choice) to do anything. A year and a half earlier she emailed five of us who are still a close group that she now understand why we never return her calls or texts, we just don't like her because she has no money, she is the loser of the group. Several emailed back telling her politely to go out make new friends, get involved, find hobbies, volunteer that she is reponsible for her own happiness and also we don't choose friends by their bank account. Because I felt bad for her I continued the friendship Not too long after that she stopped talking my phone calls or responding to my emails, out of concern I asked a mutual friend to call her, they talked five minutes after I'd called, that made it clear she was mad about something, I couldn't think of anything, worrying I'd offended her, one friend told me she was upset about me tagging her in a group picture (to be nice) on FB. Her pettiness and neediness told me I couldn't continue this friendship, any friendship with her was not possible. I never contacted her again. After months she texted me wishing me well at a "girls get-together", I responded, surprised as I had concluded she didn't want a firendship, which she replied with nonsensical excuses. Becasue I didn't like her not telling me directly what she was mad about, I composed a clear email explaining I cannot mentally or physically continue trying to maintain such a difficult friendship asking her not to contact me anymore. I did make it clear it was not done out of anger, but self preservation. I didn't mention my email to our group of friends but within a day I got two phone calls asking what went on. Anyway, I also feel good and smart for finally ending a toxic "friendship", I can better spend my time with my family and friends who I enjoy and return their friendship to me.

I still have the same best friend I had in junior high, so that's about 60 years. We live thousands of miles apart (Canada vs Australia), we do not call one another (just for Elmer's info, not all women call their friends on a regular, or even sporadic, basis), but we do email. She visited us a few years ago and the two of us took road trips together that were a delight - two ladies of advanced years travelling around in a little red sports car! She has never asked anything of me, nor I of her.

My other best friend is of course my better half. And through him, I've made other friends, male and female, though not so close. Sadly, given the age range, some of those, including his own best friend from high school, have passed away in the last year or so. That's been tough. He misses his talks with Bobby.

The other good friends, and this is important, are my husband's three adult children. They were all very supportive when he had a recent (mild)heart attack - concerned about him, but also about me. That mattered (and hubby is back home and quite chopper, with new meds).

I have a few childhood friends that I still keep in touch with. One almost weekly with messaging (neither of us likes to talk on the phone), one with maybe monthly texting sometimes the chatting will go on off and on for part of a day, third one is long letters, usually only at Christmas and each other's birthdays. My other friends are ones nearby mostly who are old neighbors or I worked with. I used to go out and shop or eat with them before Covid every so often. I work with one now and she hurt my feelings the other day at work. She is a very negative person and has had a rough life but I'm thinking I just need to not be around her anymore. It's hard being some people's friend.

Maria Sirois did a wonderful piece on this called Off My Land. It's about setting boundaries and wishing others well as you ask them to leave...others are waiting to enter who will better meet you where you are.

I think you have to register to view the video but it's free. She has a whole series of tone poems as she calls them available and they are all wonderful. https://www.mariasiroisprograms.com/

I have not deliberately ended any friendships, although I did de-friend my sister in law in Texas on Facebook, but this was before I learned how to put people on "ignore," which is a useful tool in Facebook. I have very little to do with my brother in Texas either, but he is still my friend on Facebook, although his wife is not.

It's pretty easy to ignore people that are 1500 miles away.

I find it more difficult to keep friends in California, and especially in L.A. So many just seem to drift away. I did have one friend that I made a conscious effort to distance myself from, but that was only when he appeared to be doing coke, which changed his personality. I've never had to tell anyone that I no longer wanted to be friends with them or never have anything to do with them.

When I lived in San Francisco, some of my best friends were those that I had met in Mexico City and Vancouver, and I would visit them as often as I could, and they always welcomed me. I think they found me entertaining for some reason, but I think also that they may have considered it to be a status symbol to have a house guest from San Francisco. Of course I invited them to visit me in SF as well. I recently reconnected with one in Vancouver on FB, but others I have lost contact with, although I would really like to see them again.

It might be easier to have distant friends than ones who live close by.

I have recently found it easier to become friends with women than with men, through no particular choice of my own.

I have one friend from college that I have known since we were 20, and we had stopped communicating for a few years, but then I found him again and contacted him. He told me that I had told him that I never wanted to speak to him again, but I do not remember saying this to him. I think he must have just gotten me especially irritated at one time, and I may have said this for dramatic effect without really meaning it.

I in no way try to avoid drama, but I know that it bothers some people, and then there are some people who seem to entertain themselves by trying to get me upset. They have admitted this and said that they do it because I become very funny (to them) when I get upset. I have sometimes caught myself saying drastic things when I become upset that later seem funny to me as well, and so I can sort of understand this. However, it does bother me that people would entertain themselves at my expense. Some of my relatives do this also, and I've learned just not to react when they try to provoke me. I'm not vicious when I get provoked, but I do often say extreme and sometimes absurd things in response, and so I have to control this.

It's better when I write letters when I get upset, and I always make copies of them, so that I can read them later and be amused myself. It's easier now just to take videos.

"(just for Elmer's info, not all women call their friends on a regular, or even sporadic, basis)"

That's an inaccurate portrayal of what I said. My comment that you've misstated, which you may want to note has 2 "likes" and with which my wife agrees, is perhaps a unique phenomenon of American social culture. Something that you, as a non-American apparently without significant experience living in the US, are unfamiliar with.

Another interesting observation concerning apparent gender differences concerning relationships and interactions with friends, is that I've never heard a male refer to a male friend as being "needy". Or describing a relationship as being dramatic or toxic. Or about there being jealousies, dependencies, or other overtly emotional aspects to deal with. Though I have heard such things with women describing people in their lives. Whether this because of the differences in how gender tendencies or how interactions with others differ, or for some other reasons, I don't know.

Speaking in generalities; what have you observed in men describing such a relationship? What is the language?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?

Maybe to take a guess - my experience is that male friendships do not typically have an emotional or overtly personal dimension to them. They may sometimes extend to a light conversation to personal matters, at a high level of generalization, but in a non-emotional way and perhaps more superficially? Rarely to emote, rarely to get advice on how to cope or what to do. The "talk about it and feel better" tactic, outside of professional counselling, seems to be less common for men than for others. For whatever reason I don't know. I've heard women say "I have to talk to X to get some things off my chest", I've never heard a male say that unless the reference was the need to speak to someone directly about a problem involving that second person directly. Rarely a need to talk to Person A, about Person B, to offload feelings.

It does change over the years, immature young adults most certainly talk about personal things and more typically in a bragging way.

I've definitely had male friends who were needy and dramatic, and they could be jealous as well. Women do not have a monopoly on these traits.

Not meaning to start any controversy here....but I see you refer to women using such terms as dramatic, needy or toxic but that you have not heard men use these terms. I wondered, in general, what terms do you think men use.?

Elmer, it may be because things can be viewed differently by men and women. EG, Tom and Mary go to visit John and Jane and they both sit through the same conversation. On the way home, Mary is all concerned that John and Jane might get a divorce while Tom didn't pick up on it at all. Men tend to take things in a straightforward way whereas women tend to pick up on the subtle cues and the emotions behind the words....didn't you see the way he looked at her? Didn't you hear how sharply she answered him? I think it's those subtle cues that may or may not be misread that lead to so much drama or toxicity in a relationship.

Here's a short piece on marketing to men vs women: https://growthdot.com/6-dead-simple-tips-succeed-marketing-men-vs-women/ 

FTA: I found this interesting and it may go towards explaining why women communicate more with each other than men: ...women often speak around 20 000 words per day whereas men usually tend to speak only 7 000 words.

I'm not offended if your question has honest intentions. I was repeating words and expressions I've heard women use to describe situations they faced or had heard of. My point was, I don't hear men use such words and perhaps it's because the nature of their relationships with other males is different, or perhaps they just don't talk about problems with friends or family with others. Maybe it's both.

If my words were unclear, I was talking about my experiences of what I hear, not what exists.

What about the so called friends that never call you unless you keep calling them or texting to see how they are? Is it worth even keeping up with someone that doesn't care? I have so few left and that's the problem, so I keep reaching out.

I had diminishing phone calls with friends . I finally caught on that I was the one doing all the calling and suggesting we get together sometime. Although they seemed friendly enough, the phone calls and gatherings never happened. I eventually got the hint and stopped contacting them. I never heard from them again. I felt rather foolish I did not catch on earlier.

I cut off all my "friends" a decade ago. The fact was, I met them at various jobs, and they were nice enough, but as the years went on, I found i did not like them. They were users and had,it seemed, very little values. One of them is actually SOs cousin, though I did not meet SO until very shortly before I stopped talking to her, and it was not through her that I met him.

I have some ladies at work that I like and we have fun while we are here if we are working the same shift,but i have never socialized with them outside of here. I have lots of fun with the people at work, though not my direct coworkers. But again, no close friendships with anyone. I am good with that. I am happy with my SO and my pets and my family. I have always been just fine,even happy by myself, so even if I did not have them I would be content. I like myself. I think it is easy to pick up new friends. Its difficult to find good ones who truly want to be your friend, who want the best for you and want nothing from you other than your presence in their life.

"I eventually got the hint and stopped contacting them. I never heard from them again. I felt rather foolish I did not catch on earlier."

I think this has happened to most of us at one time or another, in various different contexts. Is this maybe a type of passive/aggressive behavior? Trying to comunicate a message, by not communicating? A form of passive resistance?

My comments were directed towards anyone in case you think they were directed towards you Lucille! Personally I thought what you advised Jim was very good advice.

I value your comments and ideas.

I was merely adding to the conversation in saying that I don't have any stories to tell because my friendships are few and far between if at all.

I don't count DH as a friend directly. He and I are night and day different in so many ways. I'm the night and he's the day :-). I don't know where he gets his energy from but he still works long hours at a hard job in his 60s. I on the other hand do not work as hard as I should right now.

A minor example among numerous samples examples would be our sleeping schedules. I go to sleep at 12:30. He can crash anywhere between 7:30 and 9:00 pm. I get up at 7:30 he gets up at around 5 a.m.

Yeonassky, my comments were made so that you would not feel left out that I did not address your post, but I deemed advice to you as unneeded because you seem happy to be where you are.

"That's an inaccurate portrayal of what I said. My comment that you've misstated, which you may want to note has 2 "likes" and with which my wife agrees, is perhaps a unique phenomenon of American social culture. Something that you, as a non-American apparently without significant experience living in the US, are unfamiliar with."

Wow, just wow. I fear someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning ;)

For the record, I may be unfamiliar with "American social culture" but I'm quite familiar with women, enough to know that one shouldn't try to generalize about us, especially when one has so little experience of living anywhere except the US.

Joan Fl what is squatters rights? I would think if it's your home you have every right to get her out. An I wrong?

Yes, I think my former friends just did not have the courage to say it out loud. The real issue was that they sided with my ex at the time. They claimed that they did not want to take sides. ( translated: we are not on YOUR side )

I guess I am not everyone's "cup of tea". But then, I drink coffee.

"For the record, I may be unfamiliar with "American social culture" but I'm quite familiar with women, enough to know that one shouldn't try to generalize about us, especially when one has so little experience of living anywhere except the US."

The several years I spent living in Western Europe, with a private sector job that required my being functionally capable with a non-English language, a similar capability with a 2nd non-mother tongue, the more than 24 months my business and personal travel have allowed me to spend abroad all over (an estimate, the real number is larger), and the many multinational relationships I developed (and a number, maintained) over all of these years, taught me this: When looking across a border at a a social, cultural, ethnic or other national practice or tendency, assume nothing. Ask, don't guess. A guess about something of this nature is more likely to be wrong as right. If you yourself had "international" experiences as broad as I have, you'd have the same humility to hold you back from making assumptions about such things as I have.

I'm sure you were as charming in Europe as you are in the forum, Elmer.

There's exceptions to every generality.

I've always found it easy to walk away from 'work friends' when I changed jobs. Maybe a phonecall or two but no desire or effort on my part to keep up with coworkers I was formerly friendly with. Undoubtedly my loss, but it's too late to do anything about that now.

I can only remember deliberately cutting off contact with one actual friend. He was getting too emotionally deep for me, so zero contact was the only way I could maintain a boundary.

In college I had a group of friends, male and female. A few months before graduation, one of the key people in this group confided to me that she regretted how she'd spent her four years -- that she's always dreamed of joining a sorority and having lots of "greek sisters" for life. Instead, all she had ... was us? Our little group wasn't good enough? Made me feel low. I never told any of the others what she'd said, just allowed her to fade away. I sent her a "friend request" on facebook a while back but she never responded. Oh, most of the rest of us are in contact, some more closely than others, but still contact.

"I'm sure you were as charming in Europe as you are in the forum, Elmer."

Another snark attack, eh.

I'll give you an answer your impolite comment doesn't deserve. Three non-American couples have remained close friends of ours over the decades since we lived there. Close enough that we've gotten invited to (and have attended) family events they've had in their home countries and they've been invited to (and have attended) family events we've had here.

How many non-work, non-school, non-neighborhood friends, that you met socially and live far away, have you had for the majority of your life as these have been for us? These aren't our only ones, just the ones from our time in Europe.

Why must so many threads become a debate over who has the right thought?

sal 60 Hanzlik, no your not right. As an example..... If I came to you and asked it I could spent the night or a few days in my camper or in a room at your place and it was ok with you. Then a few days go by and I say I don't want to go, you will have to get an eviction notice, ($$) have it served ($) then go to court$ . It could cost a ton of $$ plus the damages they do. You also can't touch me or I will have you arrested. The law STINKS, its for the criminal. So never let anyone at you place even family can do this to you. Lesson learned. :^ (

"If you yourself had "international" experiences as broad as I have, you'd have the same humility to hold you back from making assumptions about such things as I have."

Elmer - I wonder if you see the inherent self-contradiction in that comment. On the one hand you're touting your own humility in not making assumptions, and on the other you're making a very large (and totally misplaced) assumption about my presumed lack of international experience. You regularly make similar assumptions about Canadians' lack of familiarity with US culture, politics and use of the English language. Maybe you should learn to walk your own talk.

No, I think you're assuming something that isn't there to find.

Without knowing where your point of reference is today, I'll cover at least two bases I know may apply for you. I've been to Canada many, many times, for both business and personal trips. As far east as the Saguenay River at the St Lawrence, the two major cities of PQ, a week in the Laurentian mountains, visits to the Quebecois south bank of the St Lawrence, Toronto, Windsor, Calgary, a different trip to drive the highway from Banff to Jasper and back, several visits to Vancouver, and nearly a week in Whistler the year before the Olympics. I've also known a fair number of Canadians here, you surely know there has been a lot of southward migration over the years.

From these experiences and the people I've known, my takeaway is unambiguous- Canada is a foreign country to the US. Attitudes, cultural practices, traditions and values, national habits, can be quite different between here and there, nothing should be assumed. Yet many Canadians wrongly assume there are more similarities than there are. I've seen many, many occasions when Canadians here and there have made boneheaded and embarrassing mistakes because of wrongly presupposing they understood or could anticipate an American's expectations or reactions to things. Very many.

Australia. A nice country with nice people. I've been there a handful of times. I have Aussie friends here and there whom I'm in regular contact with. Oz is also a foreign country to the US. Many things I've experienced on my own. And many amusing anecdotes I've been told about, when an Aussie describes some unexpected or surprising experiences they've had in the US or in dealing with Americans. The ones I've met, including those who have visited here, view the US as a foreign country. The ones I've spoken to about it also view their (former) Commonwealth partners as foreign countries. Rightly so.

I'll throw something else in, a mistake many Americans who travel abroad (yes, it's a minority) make concerning the UK. Forget the mostly common language between the US and the UK. it's also a foreign country, no less foreign than the major countries in Western Europe (that don't use English) are to the US. To assume values, practices, attitudes, and the rest, between the US and UK are the same is to fall into a hugely wrong assumption.

Differences are neither good nor bad, they're just differences. Are there commonalities, sure. BUt assuming anything is a mistake. That was what my years in Europe, with a very multinational group of friends and work colleagues, taught me. I assume nothing and caution others who do.

"I assume nothing and caution others who do."

Then don't assume that I have less international experience than you do. In fact, I have considerably more, and in a much wider range of cultures.

I assume nothing about you but have seen a pattern with your comments of your thinking you understand more than you seem to. I've seen that often as described above.

That is very much a case of the pot and the kettle. Some of your comments are demonstrably wrong, and lead me to question even the limited international experience you claim to have.

jmm, I have read your posts for many years. I have found your comments to be really interesting and your knowledge of other countries and cultures amazing. One can tell that you have truly had many diverse experiences in your life.

Your unassuming posts and points of view are always a pleasure to read.

"lead me to question even the limited international experience you claim to have"

You must do so in self defense. My comments here and always are truthful. My experiences are as they are, most especially with Canadians, who I generally like. I generally like most people and enjoy knowing people of diverse backgrounds.

Accept the praise of your fellow Canadian who in this regard may or may not have the same blind spot or certainly knows others who do. No big deal. These are my experiences, others may have different ones. Please don't accuse me of saying things that are untruthful as regards myself, that's something I never do. Opinions are opinions, everyone has them

Cultural differences are real. Enjoy them.

Oh the irony.

I had to cut ties with 2 of my best friends and a neighbour who moved away. One friend I knew from Grade 9 and the other a real close male friend. I had to get their negativity and anger out of my life. My neighbour was really negative. I couldn't stand being around them anymore.

I finally stopped seeing or talking to a friend of almost 20 years. I found myself walking on eggshells never knowing how she might react to almost any conversation or perceived slight. I really did like her and we had much in common including travel which we did often. I knew that at some point there would there would be a break in our friendship because this had happened with her and her sister, her son, many friends etc. She would get angry about something and would go for weeks or months not speaking to that person. When it happened to me I decided that I had had enough. As it happens we have a mutual friend so I have seen her several times always with others present. She always speaks and asks about my family etc. Never again will I put myself in that position.

So I guess my question is - have you ever consciously decided to end a friendship and if so did you feel better or worse afterwards?

yes x 3...and yes, I too, am "free".

Yes, only one and in the last couple of years. We had been workmates and became friends probably 20 years ago I was at a point in my life where I was so hurt and foggy I would let a friend lead me around and put up with anything. As I became more healthy and perky, I resented the strong arming of this friend , but I put up with it. The one habit that became the breaking point was her never showing up on time, or changing our plans to suit her wants. We had a couple of tiffs about it, but nothing ever changed. Finally when she showed up 30 minutes late to lunch, I broke our friendship off. She did not believe me, and kept coming around but not changing or apologizing. Kept saying it was me in a bad mood. After many turn downs to join her, she finally got the hint. We see each other in a group, and are friendly and polite, but she knows I will not run around with her. It is soooo freeing.

Joan fl I am so sorry you are going through this. I never knew that there were squatters rights.

Doesn't sound right to me. And thanks for the information.

Friends don’t have to fill the same space in your life. I have some friends the I enjoy spending time with and others that I confide in. When I finally understood the differences in my early 20’s, I stopped expecting the same thing from everyone.

Doing so allowed me to have better engagements with people based on how they fit into my life. I tend to walk away from narcissistic people and those who constantly see the darker side of things. There are three that come to mind over the past 15+ years.

She is GONE!!!! Still has to clean up the mess but out of my life!

joann....I'm sorry that happened to you.....and glad it's over.

During the pandemic, when there were no evictions, I paid a tenant two months rent to get her/family to leave by the following Saturday. "They" got a lawyer, who advised them to take my offer. ☺ Then my property management company and I parted ways. (They didn't check how much $ she made, just took her word for it. and sided with the tenant saying the damage was "normal wear & tear". She killed the lawn, said she couldn't afford to water it, even tho it was in her contract. I had to put in gravel on one side, but was able to save the rest. And...the house had ants, it was so greasy/dirty! I used a putty knife to scrape the grease off the wood floors. Grease was dripping down the cabinet over the stove. Gross! I had to sand all the oak floors & restain. The tan carpet on the stairs was black. I spent hours cleaning the stove, then ended up throwing it out anyway, the electronics were fried. She said she pounded on the OTR microwave, broke it off the wall.....because she was trying to get the turn table to turn. She thought it was stuck. There was an on/off button for the turntable. ☺ I was glad to see her go as well.

BTW I've never evicted anyone. This was my 1st time....asking someone to leave.

nicole__ I guess I was lucky, it was HER Camper she was in. She was just being very spiteful and running up my electric bill and not paying anything for 3 months. She is a real con, we all believed her sad stories. She has bite off her last had that will feed her, too many people have finally figured her out. It took me 10 years!

Sometimes the best way to help people, is to not help them.

You want to borrow money? Park your camper in my driveway? Sorry, no, that won't work for me. Sorry I can't help you.