Octopus Canes - Cultivar Dependant / Growing out of it - Munstead
Comments (22)
Aaron Rosarian Zone 5b
2 years ago
Diane Brakefield
2 years agoRelated Discussions
Re: 2 older msgs., Young Lycidas & Munstead Wood Bare Root
Comments (6)HI Andrea, I'm sorry, I missed this one until your other post about the bands. Yes ma'am, you can leave it as you've repotted until more new growth begins, or, if it's raining with any regularity, or quite cool and damp, remove the collar and soil. It depends mostly on the condition of the plant when received and the conditions under which it is being held. We had a brief period here last week of temps in the high 80s, very low humidity, brilliant sun with wind. Now, we're back into the high 60s to mid 70s, relatively higher humidity with fog and high clouds. If I'd planted a bare root under the hotter, windier, drier weather, I would have collared it here. Under what we're experiencing now, I'd likely just plant it, presuming it was well hydrated and in great shape when I received it. I'd collared quite a few of the longer cuttings I removed from the wraps for the same reason. They kept right on developing and new roots were evident at the cup and band bottoms, so I have removed the collars from those showing roots to let them harden off during this milder weather. They weren't pushing well during the hot, sunny, dry, windy period but are now they aren't stressed by the harsher weather they endured. Now, roots are pushing rather quickly. I actually lifted nearly fifty higher in their bands and cups this morning, providing them greater soil room under them to continue pushing roots in to. So, if pots aren't drying out quickly in the conditions you're experiencing now, don't worry about it. Either way is probably fine. If it's hotter and sunnier, just keep it collared and watered then begin removing the soil an inch or two at a time once the plant is pushing new leaves and canes vigorously. I hope it helps! Thank you! Kim...See MoreIs anyone growing Munstead Wood?
Comments (13)I have not taken full bush shots of mine yet - but will make sure I do it this year - Seing pics of full plants is much needed on HMF too ...but if you search online you can see a good specimen of Munstead Wood - On this Italian blog - it gives you a good idea of the size. See link below. In this picture - I think there are 3-5 plants together: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-j--D3jEUDX8/TqwCh2KN5gI/AAAAAAAACGI/r2TRFEi8xfA/s1600/Munstead+Wood+in+border.jpg Earlier Austins became almost 2-3 times bigger plants in most parts of USA -than here in cool Northern Europe. In California I have seen the puny Tradescant become a fence climber .. - but the newer introductions - have a much nicer growth habit - and does not seem to grow that much bigger - only time and experience will teach us. I think we all have been amazed seeing Olgas - Abraham Darby - Hoovbs Evelyn sigh ...and Jeri's Golden Celebration In sunnier, warmer, southern parts of Europe some Austins becomes spectacular: Take a look at these: Pat Austin: http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg122/CC_Schnuppe/?action=view&current=pataustinphoto.jpg Shropshire Lad http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg122/CC_Schnuppe/?action=view&current=aslphoto.jpg I would not have room for many of those ._) Here is a link that might be useful: Munstead Wood...See MoreOctopus Canes and David Austins-A photo request
Comments (37)Unleash many of Mr. Austin's creations in environments more benign than even the best of the British types and watch out! I lived through the experience of discovering his newly introduced to our country, "mannerly five foot shrubs" quickly becoming house eaters in Southern California. Remember, the first bastion of "English Roses" and the initial push to introduce them to American gardens began right here. One of the first American collections of them was planted at The Huntington Library where I was an active volunteer at that time. We were all amazed at the intense vigor the majority exhibited. Mr. Austin was reportedly amazed when he witnessed the proportions his roses achieved in their first season (and even more so with subsequent seasons!) here. I battled Golden Celebration for far too many years, first attempting to encourage it to develop into a large, free standing shrub, then to constrict it to a house wall when it demonstrated its complete resistance to being "shrub like". It refused to be contained in either situation, rapidly throwing itself in every direction and refusing to provide any color until it fully blocked access to any point past its position. Not even the stiff winds experienced on occasion in its situation could keep its exuberance in check. Perhaps, had there been a huge lawn with a very tall, long fence to permit it to eat, it might have succeeded, but in that normal sized, suburban garden in a fairly typical, upscale, Los Angeles bedroom community, it was much too enthusiastic and demanded far too much space and water. It sulked if not provided regular flooding. It made extremely efficient use of increased water when it was provided. Crown Princess Mag. was the same, as is Graham Thomas, Pilgrim, Charles Austin, Yellow Charles Austin, Leander (10' X 10' or NO bloom), and far too many others to list here. All of this on the same fertilizing and watering all the other garden roses were provided and none of the others (assorted OGRs, moderns, polys, shrubs, HTs, etc.) demanded more nor responded in similar bad behavior. I don't plant nor suggest many OGR types, as so many of them require much more winter chill, rain, humidity and much less heat and intensity of sun than we can provide. Many once flowering European OGRs simply will NOT flower here. Many Damasks, Centifolias, Hybrid Chinas, Gallicas are as successful as stone fruit with 400+ hours of winter chill requirement. We can frequently succeed with those which require no more than 150, in good years, 200 hours of winter chill. Short season foliage too frequently does not remain viable and healthy when exposed to double and longer of their suitable season length. Just as more tender roses frequently fail when exposed to the colder, wetter, shorter and less intense British 'summer'. I don't expect the roses to develop themselves into the desired framework, however, selecting those which DO (and, there are actually a rather large number which WILL), creates a significantly easier, pleasing garden in which to enjoy your time, and goes a very long way toward significantly more successful plants. Perhaps, if I had Mr. Hearst's land area and water budget, more of the Austin roses may be permitted to develop into what they demand to be in this climate? Yes, absolutely, they CAN be pruned and I have removed MANY yards of Austin roses to be sent to the green waste processing sites, but that much too frequently turns them in to thorny junipers, with the same level of 'garden color' junipers afford. Actually, perhaps a bit less than junipers. At least they provide a much more varied palette of green, are without the flesh ripping prickles, and they don't experience the foliage issues too many of the Austins have here, particularly when maintained in malnourished states from being forbidden the foliage mass they demand in this endless growing season to remain healthy. A large, thorny green plant with no flowers is disappointing in your own garden. It is completely unacceptable in gardens for which you are being paid to provide the required bloom. Kim...See MoreLets see those octopus arms!
Comments (5)The hard thing about photographing 'octopus arms' is that by nature they don't fit well into the frame of the picture. Also, they're hardly the most attractive thing about most bushes, so I don't tend to keep those photos around. The closest I can come at the moment is a bush shot of Teasing Georgia, who is notorious for octopus arms for me, as I grow her freestanding. She's at least 6' tall with maybe 10' canes, and she loves to put out random long canes all summer that I tend to ruthlessly cut back. In this photo, there's one shooting up from the center to the left top of the photo, and it goes on for at least as long out of the picture as you see here. It tends to make Teasing Georgia look lopsided even at the best of times, so I prune them back when I catch her at it. A better shot of some octopus arms is from a modern rose shot. Sunrise Sunset is an Easy Elegance rose that is listed as 2-3' high. It might be that high, but it wants to be 10' wide at least. This year, it has totally covered the trellis behind it after I started tucking all these octopus arms into the structure to keep them out of the way. I think it wants to be a groundcover rose, but in this intermediate stage you can see two octopus arms shooting off to the right and left of the main bush, one of which is threatening the sidewalk. Not ideal pictures, but I hope this helps you picture the phenomenon. Cynthia...See More
a1an
2 years agoDiane Brakefield
2 years ago
MiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoDiane Brakefield
2 years agoDiane Brakefield
2 years agoa1an
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoMiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoMiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet
2 years agolast modified: 2 years ago
strawchicago z5
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoa1an: Is your Munstead Wood grafted on Dr.Huey, grafted-on-multiflora, or own-root? Also what is the NPK of the fertiizer you are using? Also how many inch. do you prune off after the last flush? Also what type of soil do you have: loamy, sandy, or dense clay. Does the octopus cane occur after heavy rain, or does it occur with alkaline-tap water? Is your soil tested high in calcium? Someone with soil test high in calcium reported THIN canes and small blooms on her roses.
My hard well tap water at pH 9 is high in calcium, and roses got big & stingy when watered with tap-water. In contrast, my roses are shorter &more compact with rain-water.
Is your Munstead Wood in full-sun or in partial shade? I get much less sun in late summer and fall so my roses throw out thin canes trying to reach for the sun. Thank you for the info.
Below is own-root Munstead Wood in full sun with shorter canes in hot July, soil was heavy clay:
I moved Munstead Wood next to my house, and put more fluffy & loamy soil in planting hole. Below is Munstead Wood in late Oct when the house shaded it, note the long side-cane reaching out for sun at bottom of pic. Mine is 7th-year-own-root. An experienced rose grower in Pakistan (Tahir Khan) told me both Golden Celebration and Munstead Wood do best in full-sun (more compact growth).We don't have much sun in my zone 5 in late fall, so I UP potassium to thicken canes. In contrast, Calcium & sulfur gives growth spurt but thin canes. Munstead Wood as 1st year-own-root used to throw a 3 feet long octopus cane when it was a dinky pot with fluffy potting soil, fertilized with gypsum (calcium sulfate):
MiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet
2 years agoOthello demonstrating what is the octopus behaviour.
Steven
Diane Brakefield
2 years agoMiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agostrawchicago z5
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoann beck 8a ruralish WA
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agostrawchicago z5
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agostrawchicago z5
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoa1an
2 years agostrawchicago z5
last yearlast modified: last yearMy own-root roses with canes longer than 5 feet in late summer/fall:
James Galway, Lavender Crush, Princess Charlene de Monaco, L.D. Braithwaite (octopus cane), Sweet Mademoiselle, Savannah, Dee-lish, Radio Times (octopus cane), Zeph Drouhin (octopus cane), Crown Princess Magareta (octopus cane).
Canes over 3 feet: Kiss me Kate (octoopus cane), Climbing Crimson glory, Excellenz von Schubert, Golden Celebration (octoopus cane), Lady of Shalott.
Canes over 2 feet: Perfume Breeze (irregular shooting canes). Ardoise de Lyon, Cornelia, Evelyn (octopus cane but more upright), Poseidon (very compact bush).
Below are compact OWN-ROOT roses which stay under 2' x 2' with ZERO OCTOPUS CANES:
Below 11th-year-own-root W.S. 2000 stays small at 1.5' x 1.5"
Below 2nd-year own-root Well-being is compact at 2' x 2'
Munstead Wood is 8th-year own-root, and it stays small 2' x 2'
Own-root Marie Pavie is a round & compact bush at 2' x 2' at below edge of the pic. Upper white is Mary Magdalene is always small at 2' x 2' as 12th-year-own-root:
Own-root 12th-year Pat Austin is also small & compact
Below Christopher Marlowe is also compact & small as 12th-year-own-root:
The Dark Lady is also compact as 8th-year own root:
Moonlight Romantica is compact at 2' x 1.5' as 2nd-year own-root:
Twilight Zone is always compact & constant blooming in 4 hrs. of morning sun, it's an 8th-year own-root:
7th-year-own-root Prairie Harvest is compact at 2' x 2' and constant blooming in partial shade:
11th-year own-root Carding Mill is compact at 2.5' x 2'. Pic. taken end of July.
I post above pic. to decide if I should kill L.D. Braithwaite for its 5 feet tall octopus' canes & not much scent and stingy in partial shade. At least Firefighter is compact with zero octopus canes even as 3rd-year-own-root back in 2015.I need to sacrifice L.D. Braithwaite's best spot for Firefighter (died on me 3 times & bought again this year). Anyone here grow a compact L.D. Braithwaite as own-root? If it doesn't stop its octopus cane habit, I'll take it out so Firefighter below can take its prime spot:
Diane Brakefield