The traffic patterns created by this kitchen would be a concern for me. Despite the fact that there are two entrances from the family room to the kitchen, it looks like the flow from the patio and the "meat" of the family room will invite people to use the top entrance more frequently, meaning that they will walk all the way through the kitchen to reach the fridge (the highest-traffic location in my experience). Your 42" aisles are wide enough for general working, but not wide enough to accommodate that type of traffic.

I agree with Mamagoose that an island may not be ideal in your situation. The wider aisles she shows would help with the traffic issues, and having a prep sink would be nice since your current sink is quite far from your fridge (not optimal). You could also consider a peninsula starting at the top of the kitchen, creating a sort of large U shape, like this:

Well, Mamgoose and biondanonima, I agree with both of you. In fact, my personal "final" plan looked almost exactly like biondanonima's exept that the peninsula was shifted to the right a little into the family room (however, my husband has vetoed using any family room space). I like that this version keeps traffic out of the work area and I realize a peninsula means we don't use as much space for aisles.

I presented the peninsula version and the island version to my husband and our interior designer and both STRONGLY preferred the island version. My husband is against peninsulas on principal. For a while, I tried to sell him on mamagoose's layout, calling it an "anchored island" instead of a peninsula, but my PR campaign did not work on him. The interior designer said if we did the peninsula plan, we would have spent a lot of money and time, but things would still feel closed off and it would not be worth it.

FYI, the current layout is that there is a wall between the kitchen and family room with a pocket door at the bottom of that wall. Cabinets are in a U shape and the fridge is on the wall that is shared with the family room, just above the door to the family room. We have an eat-in area where the pantry is shown on the new plan and the area to the right is a wet bar. Let me know if I should try to post a pic of that. I think I have one.

My goal is to have a "social kitchen." Right now there is no place for someone to sit and talk to me and I can't interact with the family in the family room. I know most of my goals would be met with biondanonima's plan (except I don't think I would really have the ice, water, stone, fire flow). But I don't seem to be able to convince my husband to go through the pain of taking a wall out just to get a peninsula.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to improve the island layout (or talking points to sway my husband to our side)?

Thanks so much!

Blueskysunnyday

I don't know if you have tried this argument on your husband, but the feeling of being "closed in" has less to do with where you can walk/where doorways are than it does with how far your eyes can go in a space. Removing the wall between the family room and kitchen is going to give you the feeling of having a connection between those rooms whether there is a peninsula or an island there. Choosing one over the other is really more about controlling traffic flow and limiting the amount of space dedicated to aisles. Generally speaking I am not a fan of peninsulas, but they are the right choice for certain spaces and yours seems to be one of them.

Is it possible to entirely remove the stub wall that remains at the bottom of the kitchen? I am guessing it is load-bearing and probably expensive to get rid of, but without it there I think you'd have a MUCH better situation for an island. If it needs to remain, could it be converted into just a support post and integrated into the island design? Or is that what you tried with your "anchored island" campaign? :) IMO that would also help connect the main part of the kitchen with the new pantry/MW-freezer drawer section as well. As currently drawn, that section seems oddly separated and the hallway between it and the main kitchen just looks like wasted space.

If the island is a 'must-have' for your husband, skip the prep sink, and make the aisle in front of the range 48". There isn't enough prep space on either side of the prep sink, as drawn, so save your money and rinse items at the perimeter sink, then move to the island counter across from the range. Secondary prep will be in the corner, and if you don't feel like trucking items to the island, the corner becomes the primary prep area.

I really like @biondanonima (Zone 7a Hudson Valley) version. 7' counter run facing the family room is very nice for entertaining.

It should also keep the social people out of your way so you can cook and chat instead of wishing everyone would just get the h*ll out of your way. I had a walk through kitchen before so worked on eliminating it in our new house. While it is much better we have an island and everyone likes to gather all the way around it instead of the far side like I assumed.

Mama Goose, the way I envisioned using the prep sink is that I would place items from the fridge on the nearest corner, wash them in the prep sink and then set them behind the prep sink so they would be there for me to prep from the other side where the trash is. But now I am realizing that I would proobably need a trash can near the prep sink too so I can dispose of packaging, etc., before washing. I guess the prep sink does not make sense.

biondanonima, that weird stub wall has to stay. We had an architect and contractor look at it and both said they did not believe it could be changed ... I can't really remember why, but it had something to do with the fact that 2 beams would be meeting at that point. If we could change that, the island possibilities would open up dramatically. Also, I agree that the hallway seems like wasted space. It is aggravating. I have tried drawing it so that the kitchen extends further down, which moves the mudroom door down, but the architect says that is not a good idea because it messes up the sightlines/flow of the dining room, mudroom and garage doors, which are currently lined up. What do you all think of that objection? It does seem like it would be pain to wind through that area with groceries from the garage, but would it be worth it? Would I miss being able to see basically across the whole house?

aziline, I read your comment about keeping people the h*ll out of the kitchen while working to my husband and he was receptive. I'll let it marinate in his brain for a while.

I can't thank you enough for sharing your insights and comments! I'd love to hear more!

Blueskysunnyday

Here is a very messy (possibly confusing) drawing I did to see what it might look like to move the door to the mudroom down. I never intended this for public consumption, so it is not perfect, but it gives you an idea.

And, here is another one I drew that does not move the mud room door but I could not figure out how to get the freezer drawers into the main kitchen. I need to figure this out so I can get back to real life and stop secretively sketching all day! Again, it is messy and hard to read. Sorry.

I see what you mean about moving the mudroom door down. Personally moving the doors out of alignment wouldn't bother me from a sightline perspective, but I can see it being annoying to have to maneuver around to get groceries in from garage to kitchen. That thought actually leads me to another issue with your current plan - it doesn't look like you have a good dumping ground/staging area at the fridge end of the kitchen, which is where you will be coming in with groceries, etc. This would be solved by the anchored island layout.

Just out of curiosity, how much space is there on the back wall on the right side of the large window? And does the stub wall there have to stay?

biondanomina, from, the edge of the window moulding (not the sill, which sticks out a little farther) to the wall, the distance is 32". I have no idea if that stub wall drawn at the end of the 32" has to stay. It just has always been there in what the architect has drawn and I have been using his drawings as my starting place. What are you thinking for that area?

I also quickly sketched up another idea last night where I moved the mudroom door UP instead of down. This involves having the fridge a litte isolated from the rest of the kitchen, but does increase the size of the pantry. Do you think having the fridge all the way over there would get annoying? Would it be necessary or preferable to have a prep sink in this configuration? Do you like it? I am posting the sketch, but it is pretty messy and unfinished-looking. Sorry about that.

Thank you so much for your time! My husband cannot handle a single minute more of kitchen discussion and just wants to go with the architect's original plan and be done with it. I need to talk this through with someone and finally make a decision. He is still worried that peninsulas are dated, but he is so sick of my going back and forth, he might agree just to be done with the discussion.

I have made a neater version of what I posted above. Please let me know what works and does not with this plan. Thank you!!

"He is still worried that peninsulas are dated, but he is so sick of my going back and forth, he might agree just to be done with the discussion."

Everything comes back into style. For now it's islands. When you sell it might be peninsulas again. But regardless a good working work triangle should always be in style.

Some kitchens will function better with a peninsula than with an island, and some kitchens don't need a prep sink. I don't see that a prep sink adds function in this case, because zones are crossed. If a helper is trying to unload the DW or gather dishes to set the table, it seems he would be in your prep space/crossing behind you, between the prep zone and range.

If you move the DW to the right of the sink, prep would be to the left, if you have a helper loading or unloading the DW, or if no helper is in the kitchen, prep could move to the peninsula (green lines), but only one sink is needed.

I made the cabinet against the wall, under the peninsula, 27", to account for the filler:

If your heart is set on a prep sink, maybe it would work better if dish storage is relocated:

@blueskysunnyday, I asked about the space to the right of the window and that stub wall on the off chance that something like the fridge could go there in an island plan, but it sounds like there really isn't enough room.

Anyway, your new plan is interesting. At the risk of sounding crazy, I would put the main sink and DW on the peninsula and the prep sink in front of the window in this plan. Having the smaller sink would allow you to pull the peninsula in a bit, stealing less room from the family room and narrowing the space between the long sides of the U, which would tighten up your work triangle nicely. I do all of my prep next to the range, because I hate crossing an aisle with chopped vegetables or raw meat in my hands. Having the DW where you have it in your drawing would be an absolute NO for me, whereas if it were in the peninsula, you could easily have someone loading/unloading it while you prep or cook. The fridge is a bit far from the prep sink, but since there is no barrier between them it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Like this:

Thanks for the great feedback! I would say I DON'T have my heart set on a prep sink, but I DO have my heart set on using the peninsula as my main prep space because that will connect me to a kid doing homework at the counter, the family watching TV in the family room, or a friend sipping wine on a stool. I can see the problem of a dishwasher-emptier crossing paths with the cook and am not sure how to correct it. I also see how it makes much more sense to prep between the sink and range. I wish I could make this kitchen perfect, but I need to get over it. I have been drawing layouts for 3 years now and the current kitchen is falling apart around us. I would like to proceed with the assumption that I will prep at the peninsula and try to make things as logical and efficient as possible with that in mind. I welcome any and all suggestions!

One thing I am not sure about is where to store my glasses. In my latest plan, the ice maker will be over at the bar (lower right) and the fridge is nearby, but in a different "hallway." I wrote "glasses" in a cabinet next to the fridge, but now I don't actually think I will have room for them there. I think will only have 6-10 inches to spare once the fridge, freezer drawers and microwave over the freezers are there. What would you do? I could store all glasses at the bar (we will have filtered water there and mostly drink water), but that is relatively far from the dishwasher. I will note that this is our current set up and we live with it. The other option I see is using one of the drawers in the cabinet marked "dishes." I planned to use the top for flatware and at least one drawer for dishes, but maybe one drawer could be for everyday glasses.

Again, thank you to mama goose, biondanonima and aziline for your thoughtful comments. I really appreciate the feedback and the opportunity to have a sounding board.

There would be nothing stopping you from prepping on the peninsula with the main sink there, aside from less counter space than you might want due to the size of the sink. You would have the option of prepping on the peninsula when you have a kid or friend at the counter, as well as the option of prepping efficiently next to the range while someone is cleaning up. It would also bring the DW closer to the bar/ice/glasses.

Personally I would stick with one of your previous plans if you really want the main sink at the window. As mamagoose pointed out, there is a lot of crossing of work zones in the newest version as drawn, and I don't think it is a substantial improvement over the others.

OK, I have tried to address the very valid concerns of my helpers here regarding crossing paths of preppers/ cooks and dishwasher unloaders. I moved some things around. I know it looks like the DW door will interfere with the dishes drawer, but this is the set up now and it only impacts unloading into the bottom drawer, which would be pots. However, I am still unable to figure out where glasses would be stored. Anywhere they go, there will be paths crossing, I think.

NKBA recommends that no leg of the kitchen triangle should be longer than 9 ft. Without a prep sink, in the latest version, the distance from the refrigerator to the sink is close to 15’. Also, traffic (you have two dogs) will cross that leg of the work triangle. I think the plans where the refrigerator was on the other side of the aisle are more functional.

I see your point, Andrea C.

Going back to mama goose’s initial suggested layout, I think it looks very efficient and gives lots of cabinet space, but was concerned that it would funnel traffic through the work area. What do people think about that?

Family members can be trained to go around when you are in the primary prep/cooking space--one of my most-used phrases is 'Oven door's open--stay out of the kitchen!'--for the benefit of small grandsons.

I came up with this rough plan yesterday (or the day before?), but forgot to come back to post it. If you could split the large window and put the range on that wall, you could have a peninsula. with prep and a separate clean-up run, without the zone crossing. Secondary prep would be between the sink and range, in front of the smaller window. Glasses could go over the DW, with dishes where you had pots/pans. Pots and pans could go to the left of the prep sink, or in a corner susan.

Doing that much structural work might not be feasible, but I thought I'd mention it. A 36" range would fit the space better, so maybe another reason it won't work.

That makes a lot of sense, Mama Goose! I like the idea of moving the range, but we have an older brick home, so changing up the windows is relatively difficult. Also, we were planning to re-use the 48” range that is already here. It was in the house when we bought it 8 years ago, but it is a Wolf and still works great.

I really appreciate everyone’s input and help with the kitchen. We have a meeting with the architect next week and I need to get something figured out by then, but I feel like I just can’t see a clear winner in the options I have. I have accepted that the layout won’t be perfect, but I’m having trouble determining which concessions are the right ones to make for my family. Is there such a thing as a kitchen therapist? Or maybe that is what y’all do here!

I am going to take a few days to let things settle in my brain and see if anything becomes clear. I’m sure I will be back with more questions before too long. In the meantime, if you know of a good kitchen therapist, please send his/her number my way! Thank you again!!

I think kitchen therapy accurately describes what we do here! IMO, it's better to discuss options ad infinitum than to regret one of your decisions as soon as the paint is dry in the new kitchen.

So, brick complicates structural work, not to mention the added expense. If we go back to the peninsula attached to the bottom wall, but recess the fridge into the pantry space, you could direct traffic from family and dining rooms to fridge and nearby snack storage (orange oval)--in side-loading pantry to left of fridge and uppers over freezer drawers, and/or base cabinet under MW.

Fridge and MW would be in traffic aisle, but there's space to see anyone entering from garage, and vice versa. There are landing spaces beside fridge and on corners of island and perimeter; groceries can be dropped on end of peninsula for loading to fridge and pantries. I'd keep 36" between corner of fridge and freezer drawers, so this is just a rough plan. If you think trash is too far from clean-up sink, it can go on the corner of the island to the left, with another drawer base to the left of the prep sink.

Honestly? I don't like any of the options with the peninsula on the "top".

It does not create a well-thought out workflow of Refrigerator --> Prep Sink --> Prep Zone --> Cooking Zone. You're continually crossing through other zones just to make a simple meal.

The DW is in the way of the range

The "anchored island" creates a much better Kitchen workflow-wise.

If the range could go on the top wall, then the peninsula on the top would work better. But I assume you do not want to change the window (to windows flanking the range), so that's out.

FYI...I don't like the "detached island" in your original post either -- it's too small to be useful and there is no way 5 seats would fit!

• Each seat needs 24" x 15" of space (24" linear space & 15" of clear leg/knee overhang space)
• Two seats cannot share a corner as you cannot share leg/knee space
• For that design, you'd need an overhang of 15" + 24" + 1" = 40" (1" is for decorative door/end panel on the backs of the cabinets). If you have that much, then you have room for 4 seats (only 2 along the back, not 3) -- except you then need a 54" aisle b/w the island and the sink run of cabinets. While that aisle is not label, I don't think it's 54" (but it might be, I don't know for certain)
• So, a 4' island can only fit 2 seats.
• (I think you realize this as your layouts appear to have eliminated those extra seats.)

That small island also looks like it was plopped down just to say you have an island -- not a great look.

Why am I stating all this since you've (fortunately) backed off from the detached island? I'm hoping your husband can see the analysis and realize that his idea of the detached island, while nice to think about, is not feasible in reality.

This is a great idea, Mama Goose! You have convinced me that the anchored island is the way to go. I just need to decide if a bigger, more easily-accessed pantry is more important to me or keeping traffic out of the work area.

Do you happen to have any pictures of "anchored islands" handy that I could show my husband? I have faith the interior designer will be able to work her magic, but he worries it will look weird.

Thanks so much!!

Thanks, Buehl! I think we were posting at the same time, so I did not see your comment before I posted mine. I agree with you on all of what you said. What drives me crazy is that it is the architect who put 5 stools at that island! Shouldn't he know? And I also think the island looks like it is just there to say we have an island. I am sold on the lower peninsula or "anchored island" (plus prep sink) and would love to find some pictues of something similar to show my hubby if you know of any. That layout gives us the most counter and cabinet space and wastes the least amount on walking space (while still giving us 48" aisles). I know I will come back here for the down-and-dirty storage details once I have actual cabinet measurements from the architect or designer to work with, but in the meantime, I can't thank you all enough for helping me to get my thoughts straight! I felt like I was drowining in kitchen plans, but now I can see clearly. THAK YOU!!!!

If you are going to go with the anchored island (which I agree is the best of your options), I would push your contractor to find a way to turn that stub wall into a post, unless to want to keep the existing doorway between the family room and dining room. You would have many more design options that way.

Biondanonima, That would turn my anchored island into a true island, which would be awesome. The wall in question was originally the back wall of the house and is very thick (brick) and, I assume, load bearing. It still has the original floor-to-ceiling windows in it (flanking the large door between the rooms, which used to be French doors to the outside, I think). It is a cool design element that I would hate to lose, but having a true island might be worth it, depending on the cost. Thanks for the idea!

Regarding the architect -- most architects are poor at Kitchen design. They're good with structural interest, overall home flow, etc., but don't seem to understand what makes a functional Kitchen. The smart architects have a true Kitchen Designer on staff, but, most don't seem to.