A to scal e floor plan of the kitchen showing all windows doorways , where the doorways lead to then no cabinets just the plumbing if it can't be moved and the gas line. IMO you need an interior designer who has good experience for kitchen design too IMO a good kitchen is designed for how you cook just the same as you choose appliances for how you cook. The PKBA is a guideline not written in stone. Fr instance my hubby and I cook together he preps I cook we have back to back sinks at one end of the island we store utensils on both sides since they are sometimes need there , I spent a lot of time figuring out exactly what we needed for us I am kitchen designer and I stronly suggest you get one . I always tell my clients ,when we are working on a new layout , to imagine making a s imple past and sald dinner . How many steps to do this and where are all the things you need to make the meal If you have to backtrack or cross in front of the range to do any of this then rethink your layout. You do have the right idea about stroage but it still needs to work in the right place for how you cook. IMO min walkways are 48" and behind stools at least 60" .

@Patricia Colwell Consulting -- Thank you for your thoughts. I'd seen your note elsewhere about providing a to-scale floor plan, and tried to include that here.

We do plan to engage a designer, but we want to have a reasonably good feel for what we want & need in advance to facilitate the process.

Noted on more space is better behind island seating. We agree -- after all, people often don't sit with their chair pulled up snug and square to the counter -- which is why they're currently at 54": PKBA min of 44" + 10". (It's possible my PBKA reference is out of date and should reflect a min of 48" as you note.)

At any rate, more is better in this case, generally. We'll think about potentially shrinking the island width to gain some additional walking-aisle space, and consider the trade-off with narrower island seating for two (or even scaling it back to one).

I like the idea of mentally stepping through preparing a meal in the planned space. We've gone by feel so far based on our current frustrations and general ideas, but see the value in that exercise. And, it will inform our storage planning, too. Thanks!

@mama goose_gw zn6OH -- Not a Kosher kitchen. Good thought on smaller sink for the island, though my brain is stuck on being able to clean large pots in both sinks...even though that's not at all necessary. Thanks -- I think we'll end up with a smaller island sink. That'll increase working counterpsace a bit, too.

As for moving the DW, a bit more on our rationale...

When we entertain large groups today -- every 3-4 months -- the single sink serves as both tableware cleanup and cookware cleanup. We typically divide and conquer on cleanup -- one person tableware cleanup, one person cookware cleanup (and incidentally, one person leftovers putaway).

For whomever is cleaning cookware, they're basically pausing their work every time the tableware cleaner wants to rinse a plate, bowl, or glass before placing in the DW. This is also true for more frequent, small or medium gatherings, but with fewer people it's less of an issue.

So we positioned the primary DW in the island to allow tableware cleanup and putaway into DW without interfering with cookware cleanup. The cookware cleanup area DW simply serves as overflow, since we don't generally clean our cookware in the DW. And in the case of overflow, the tableware cleaner could rinse & stack at island, and then shuttle items to the overflow DW.

BUT, you've read our mind on where we plan to put dishes -- upper cabinets on the short wall. So it definitely makes sense to have both DWs on the short wall for proximity to putaway. I guess our large group gatherings every 3-4 months is really an exception to the rule, and we should treat it as such.

With both DW on the short wall, it will make our daly / weekly tableware cleanup, DWing, and putaway easier. And for the large group exceptions, we could still rinse & stack on the island and shuttle to the short wall DWs. The extra effort of stacking & shuttling is only an exception, and it makes more sense to incur the effort in the exception case, rather than the daily & weekly putaway.

Took me a while to think through it, but I like it -- I think I'm sold. Thank you! We would lose the secondary trash & recycling in the cleanup / secondary prep area, but maybe there's still a way to fit it in somewhere. Hmmm...

Looks really good. I’d incorporate the microwave not in the middle of the work triangle - maybe built in to the pantry next to the refrigerator?

Or, as mama goose shows. Just not front and center.

Not completely thought out, but...

@emilyam819 -- Thanks for revisiting the microwave. I thought I wanted it near the fridge and its landing zone, since we're typically just gently warming up leftovers. But you and @mama goose_gw zn6OH make a good point about removing it from the middle of the primary work triangle.

Incorporating the mw into the pantry cabinets may make the most sense, since it's still close to the fridge and its landing zone.

Putting it in the island end, closest to the short wall, means we'd have to pass through the work triangle to use it, which I'd like to avoid. Unless...we use the fridge near the primary work triangle for cooking / raw ingredients of one kind or another, and the other fridge for pre-packaged, ready-to-eat or -drink items and leftovers.

Hmmm...I suspect that may make it tough to keep track of where everything is. Maybe using the secondary fridge as overflow, like we do with the one in the basement, makes most sense. And that takes me back to the mw in the pantry cabinet or island to the right of the sink (though the latter would require moving the trash & recycling, which I don't think I want to do, since in that position the trash & recycling is accessible to others in the kitchen without entering the working aisle).

You've given me more to think about, thanks! And now I've found an old thread about having, rather than two fridge/freezer combos, one all-fridge and one all-freezer. Definitely need to cool / cold storage space more thought.

@bmorepanic -- I appreciate the rough layout with larger pantry. My sense is a larger pantry, anywhere, will eat into valuable counterspace, and we're probably best keeping the bulk storage pantry on the wall opposite the main work aisle. As long as we make it reac-in or bat-wing, should still be plenty easy to use vs. the not quite as convenient roll-outs next to the primary fridge.

I assumed one was all fridge and the other was all freezer.

Have you looked at your existing structure and MEP? The 2nd floor framing may require a HUGE beam, and under the floor (not flush), for the open length you show. The chase for flue, and the wet wall which probably carries the 2nd floor plumbing as well (as opposed to the north exterior wall of Kitchen). These may affect your kitchen layout.

Also, what exactly is a "Flex/Dining?" You either have a fixed table size, or don't. Lay out the furniture, as this space is very long once you open up the old Dining Room wall (and is there plumbing/HVAC in those walls?). How you interact with the Family Room may affect that long space as well.

@3onthetree -- Great questions & comments.

Yes, floor joists run as you note in yellow.

No MEP in the LR/DR partitions and no vertical HVAC runs in any of the walls (1st F has furnace in basement, 2nd F has separate furnace upstairs).

Yes, current kitchen's south wall includes MEP: plumbing (source lines and drain stack), electrical, and NG. We will need to re-route all to to the east or north exterior walls to accommodate the remodel.

Your purple box is the flue for the sole, small water heater in the house. We'll need to move the water heater near the basement furnace and join it to the existing flue in the south chimney (if possible), or switch to 220v electric heater (static or on demand), or...dunno, still thinking about options.

As for the beam...yeah, BIG. I'm guessing both north-south interior walls are structural, if the two 8"x8" beams and multiple brick columns supporting them in the basement are any indication.

Flex FR / DR I now realize is a bit of a misnomer. The typical family room is the existing west addition, which will include permanent seating, TV, etc. The flex space is more like Sitting / DR space. The intent is to allow for configurable space by moving furniture around when we host large gatherings.

For day to day, we plan to have meals at the kitchen island, but would have the flex sitting / DR configured something like this for weekly dinners of 6-8:

(diagonal-ish lines are just my reference)

For larger dinners every couple / few weeks of 10-12, we'd simply extend the DR table:

And for our largest gatherings only a few times a year, we'd rearrange and expand the DR table to seat 20-22 (we'll store nice-enough wood folding chairs in the basement):

The Dining layouts are great. The reason I was asking about the Family Room and extra unassigned space in the long 'flex' was investigating whether the Kitchen should be there. Sometimes DIYers rush to cabinet sizes and tile patterns but neglect the big picture of adjacencies and flow.

So regarding the beam and plumbing, try to picture in 3D. The reason the beam will probably not be built flush within the 2nd floor is 1.) depth will probably be greater than the existing floor joist depth for ~20.5' span; 2.) there could be wiring and plumbing vents along that 20.5' that will still need to travel across the joist space above the beam, and relocating vents or rewiring electrical homeruns is usually not in budgets. Your ceiling is 8'-4", so picture walking into the Kitchen along the stair Pantry cabs. You will be walking under the beam, which may be 7'-8" (partial flush), 7', or 6'-8"AFF, since there is only 1'-11" between the cabs and beam. How does that feel, look, affect the lighting, and does that make the stair Pantry cabs disconnected. Should that hall be clear all the way to the back?

When relocating the main plumbing stack, realize a 2nd floor toilet has a min 3" line which, even if the joist is deep enough (2x12) for one hole, can not route through multiple floor joists at an angle to get to the north wall. So either it would have to run under the joists to the north wall, or within the joists laterally to the east wall. To the east wall, based on distance there will be a minimum depth the 90d El(bow) and 1/4" slope to get to that east wall will determine if it can fit within the floor joists or your 8'-4" ceiling will be lower as well. Also, running a 4" vertical stack within the exterior wall, if 2x4 studs, means it will stick out. And, once you hit the wider foundation wall below the 1st floor joists, you have to turn the 4" stack to clear it, where sometimes that has to happen above the 1st floor (depending on foundation detailing and basement piping). So, the east wall may need furred out along the entire length.

Most people, including designers, will think these issues can be worked out in the field (if they even realize them). For many simple projects it just luckily works out. But for older houses with an historical mess of a structure/MEP, where you install a detailed, high-end remodel befitting of it's prominence (read: $$), it should be addressed in design to avoid wrong size cabinets and other headaches. I'm guessing your house is the latter situation.

Once again, thank you, @3onthetree.

Great point about adjacencies and flow, both of which are very important to us. Going so big on the kitchen remodel -- including the big beam -- is, at least in part, to improve flow as best we can.

So is other stuff that is not kitchen-specific like opening up the wall / doorway between hall at north side of 2F/basement stairs and the flex / DR area: we'll nearly double the width of the walkway from hallway to flex / DR and raise it to near-full ceiling height. My wife initially thought opening / raising that wall / doorway wasn't worth the trouble, while I said it would be a big improvement in flow (though not perfect). Fortunately, I think I've convinced her on this note. (It helps I made a similar suggestion of opening / raising doorways at our old house, to which she finally acquiesced, and the results of which she eventually agreed made a huge difference.)

We originally crafted a layout similar to the alternative you note: moving the kitchen to the flex / dining area, turning the existing kitchen into a laundry & mud room, and converting the huge BR / office & closet into a dedicated dining room. With limited space upstairs, we don't want to lose the BR / office, don't want to incur the even greater expense of an addition or raising the 2F roof to gain more space upstairs, and we really want to open the whole north side of the house to a ravine that runs just outside our back door.

We even went so far as to get a quote on the above option to inform whether to remodel or buy. It was not cheap (nor, of course, are the very few available new houses that suit our preferences.)

I didn't include it in my original post, but it's worth noting given the discussion's turn: The whole 1F has 9'4" ceilings, but the kitchen ceiling is dropped to 8'4"...I assume to accommodate 2F bathroom plumbing. Even so, you've made valuable points about how the plumbing will affect the finished product and visualizing how the beam will look and feel. I'm guessing (hoping, really) we can get away with at worst a partial flush beam.

The main stack in the basement is 4" and sits ~12" inwards of the east foundation wall, and there's also a 3" branch that runs up only ~6" inwards from the foundation / basement wall studs. They must both go up to 2F, since the line for the 1F ties in to the stack separately. The two 2F bathrooms are on either side of the wet wall (current kitchen's south wall) and the toilets are ~60" from the east wall. My initial guess is the toilet lines currently run east between joists to the main stack.

BUT...there must be something else going on: if the above was true, I can't figure out why the kitchen ceiling is dropped a full 12" from 9'4" to 8'4". If the 2F joists are same as 1F (no idea if they are or not), they'll be 2" x 9"-ish. If they're the same, and my arithmetic is right, the joists would provide 9" of depth for plumbing and the dropped ceiling would offer another 12", for a total of 21". What, in the 2F baths, could possibly take up nearly ~21" of depth? Even if the joists are only 6-8"D, the kitchen ceiling is still dropped more than I would have thought necessary. I'm stumped.

I'd not considered how the stack might affect the kitchen's east wall...great point. I'd probably want to bump out just a small (maybe ~24") section of the east wall and customize the cabinetry around it, rather than furr out the whole east wall. (What's the point of custom cabinets if you can't make them, well...custom?). We'll need to think about that one more.

You're right, our house is mostly the latter -- old (1910), historical mess, with a likely whole-house gut remodel in the '70s and a garage / 1F addition + additional remodel in the '90s. (Sigh...during one of those, they replaced the plaster with drywall and the solid core doors with hollow...baffling to me).

We've gone back and forth quite a lot on whether or not to remodel. Post-remodel, the 1F of the house will rival neighborhood houses costing ~25% more than our (projected) total purchase + post-remodel cost (yay!), but the 2F will lack in comparison (boo!) with only 3 BR, 2 BA (one of which is a small master), reach-in rather than walk-in master closet, etc.) vs. the more common luxe, apartment-sized master suites at that higher price point in this area.

Not sure if anyone had suggested, but what about flipping the kitchen and dining

Shorten the office/bedroom, but still keeping it a good size and keeping a full bath with it. This way you can still have a large dining room/flex space. Now the kitchen can be very social for large parties so you are not sectioned off in the kitchen while your guests are watching tv or enjoying the fireplace.

Just a thought

@Debbi Washburn -- Good thought! Sometimes I get so caught up in the details, I neglect to revisit the big picture.

A social kitchen is a big driver for the remodel and I like the idea of incorporating the kitchen into the more social space in the middle of the house. Though even if we maximize the east side for flex / DR, I still think it would mean we could seat ~4 fewer at the extended DR table. Hmmm.

And sometimes, I want to escape from the broader crowd!

IF I do some rough calculating - make the front bedroom 13 ft deep, the closet 2 ft deep inside ( plus the thickness of the walls ) , the bathroom at 5 ft - that should leave you a huge 16 12/ ft x 16 1/2 ft dining room . If you had a 10 ft x 44" table that can seat up to 12 people. You can easily add 2 more round tables and have a sit down for 20. Here is a quick mock up

Just something to think about