What you describe is not uncommon. Adding refrigerant seems to be the norm, finding a minute leak is difficult at best. IMO, you will get nowhere pushing back to 'find the leak'.

The way I see it, the real bottom line is that you knew you were buying a house with a 20 year old system. You should have known that 20 years is beyond the system's useful life and in need of replacing.

A 20 year old system which is low in refrigerant has a leak. You are correct adding refrigerant is a temporary repair. It is the the equivalent of adding air to a tire which has a nail in it except R22 refrigerant is much more expensive than air.

My advice is to negotiate as for as much money as possible and then put that money towards the installation of a new system once you close on the house. You could get an HVAC company to give you a quote to find the leak and do a proper repair. However HVAC companies would rather replace than repair a 20 year old system. If you can't get a quote, then at least get a budget quote from an HVAC company and ask the seller to give you that amount as credit.

@HU-867564120 Most home buyers are not aware that ac life is only 15 years specially when in disclosure t stated that ac is not working and they are going to repair it. Repairs should not be temporary fix. I also feel deceived by the fact that they didnt ptovide repair receipt till the last 5 minutes of addendum time (I only have 2 days after that to get reinspection done) when they already had receipt 15 days ago. They also misled us by telling that hvac work is being scheduled on future dates so they cant still provide the receipts but the actual work was already done.

Do you want the house or not? Actually, most home buyers with Google in their pocket, are very aware, or have little trouble discovering that AC life is 15 years. If you still want the house, try to negotiate for more $$$, but be fully aware that in a sellers market, they may drop you and relist. Otherwise, you can bite the bullet and get the new system or you can nickel and dime yourself on stop gap repairs. Or you can walk.

Hi Christy,

I understand your point. When I bought my house I wasn't aware that AC life is only 15 years unless inspection report point that out and that ac worked for 40 years with regular maintainenace none of which was refilling Freon. No, seller can not drop you and relist if they signed contract for repairs. Most real estate laws favor buyers not seller. You can easily put lien on house and buyer won't be able to sell the house but I would advice you against it. I would suggest you negotiate $$$ credit for properly fixing the ac.

need some guidance and help here since our agent is of no help

Are you being represented by a real estate attorney? If yes, then ask to review the contract to determine what is a definition of a repair. In some real estate contracts, their is a dollar limit for the repair. If the repair estimate exceeds that limit the buyer or the seller can choose to back out of the contract.

If you don't have an attorney, then be careful of the advice from the real estate agent. Real estate agents are only paid on commissions and will do whatever they can to close the deal. What ever that is may not be in your best interest.

This real estate market is hot right now. It is interesting this house had no other offers. Don't feel pressured into anything you are not comfortable doing.

I have two immediate thoughts - you're buying a house as is in all respects. The seller perhaps should have been more forthcoming about disclosing an issue but that's not uncommon. If you didn't previously know that a 20 year old AC unit is living on borrowed time, perhaps you should have but you do know now. Water heaters also have finite lives that are often shorter, in case that's relevant.

and

You have a lousy agent. I'd talk to the office manager if there is one and reach out for help. Or, give your agent a piece of your mind.

The bottom line is - you can try to negotiate an adjustment of the price (don't let them suggest doing more work) and that may or may not changes things. After that, you have a take it or leave it choice to make.

PS- mike, you may know, in much of the US, real estate transactions don't involve attorneys. That's very much the case in my large state - a transaction involves a seller's agent, a buyer's agent, and then ultimately an escrow company that handles the money and applies costs to the parties as the contract specifies, closes the transaction, and takes care of local filing requirements.

The HVAC is DOA. Adding refrigerant is like putting a band-aid on a bleeding wound. It will work for a week and then nothing. It must be fully replaced.

Essentially you have a home with no air-conditioning. Repair is out of the question. Chances are the seller cannot come up with enough cash to replace the unit. That is why they were living in a home without air-conditioning. They were literally sweating the closing date.

You need to be very careful about a few other items in light of their inability to replace the air-conditioning and coil units. How old is the hot water heater? How old is the furnace? How old is the roof? If the answer is 20 years on any of those items, I'd walk away. The house suffers from deferred maintenance and that is money out of your pocket. You home inspection should have these ages of the the items I listed.

Their repair is unacceptable. You have a choice. You can walk away right now because of their failure to provide a working unit and get your deposit back. Or you can negotiate if you still want the house.

If you still want the house, you need to get your agent to work up an extension addendum of the inspection period agreement. In today's environment, it will take at least 14 days to get someone out and get you a estimate to replace the deficient items. You don't need an inspector at this point, you need a specialist from an HVAC company that you hire to inspect both heating units and air-conditioning units. You need them to calculate a replacement estimate in writing. I would get the roofer out and get an estimate on the price for that, too. Roofing materials have gone out of sight.

Present copies of the written estimates from the experts to the sellers. Request that they reduce the sales amount in the amount of the replacement items. If they baulk at this, you might meet them at 85% or 90% of the cost. Otherwise, walk away. There are no other buyers. You are in a position of relative strength.

Don't be afraid to walk. The property isn't worth the amount you are about to pay. There will be another house. Your agent should be concerned about your being a satisfied customer. The reduction in the sales amount won't be that much in commission. But, stick to your guns and insist on getting what you were paying for, a working air-conditioning unit and any of the other deficient items.

Let us know how it turns out.

The age of the AC unit is somewhat irrelevant in my opinion. Yes the older the equipment the more likely the equipment will fail. However for those who are regulars on the HVAC forum, we see posts from people with equipment that is 10 years old reports significant problems.

Buying a house is always a risky business. That is why people hire inspectors to find out if there are any big ticket items which need to be addressed.

The seller disclosed a problem which they are supposed to do and committed to fixing it. The seller may have dragged their feet to provide the proof of the fix, but they made the deadline. The seller's fix is adding refrigerant which will allow the AC to operate. The legal debate is whether that is an acceptable fix under the term of the sales agreement. The seller thinks it is, the buy thinks it is not. I don't see anything done incorrectly so far on the side of the seller or the buyer. This is part of the negotiation that is done after the inspection.

In the NJ and NY area almost everyone hires a real estate attorney when buying a house even though it is not required by law. I know this is not the practice in other areas. I am not familiar what the buying and selling agents are supposed to do in situations like this when no attorneys are involved. Are these agents trained in contract law? If there a dispute does one of them hold money in escrow until the matter is resolved? Do they have a real estate attorney at their broker's office which they can consult?

mike, my experience from a bit of a distance (with clients who've bought property in the area you've described) is that lawyers engaged in residential real estate transactions are often not that profession's best and brightest. Far from it. It's a place that attracts a lot of hacks who can do little else, as with plaintiff contingent fee injury lawyers.

Unless dealing with a very complicated transaction, a problematic situation, or a rather pricey piece of property, reputable experienced realtors are very satisfactory in the nature and depth of the advice they can offer. Are they trained in contract law? Sure, and busy ones write and read a good number every week. Bar admission does permit lawyers to act as real estate brokers and some do. The contract forms are preprinted anyway, only exceptional situations require draftsmanship or strategic thinking and maybe the ones in larger firms have resources to help. For negotiations, a bit of cleverness and a lot of experience makes an expert.

Personal differences of opinion and friction between parties are common. These are not legal complexities, a degree in psychology goes farther in negotiations than one in law.

Disputes? Sure, I had one a few decades ago with a sleazy seller and listing agent. I sued them when an undisclosed problem came up after close, after discussions were fruitless. I won. Need a lawyer to bring suit.

Who gave you an estimate of $10-$15k for a new unit?

The system has a leak. Topping up the refrigerant is not a "repair". Advise your agent that closing will be postponed until the leak is identified, repaired properly or, if that is not possible, the AC condenser and/or evaporator coil are replaced.

Problem is back in the sellers court.

"Problem is back in the sellers court."

Not necessarily. Real estate is sold as is. Only new real estate has a limited implied warranty either under law or by contract

If a problem has been disclosed, whether something is done or not done depends on the outcome of discussions/negotiations. The seller is usually under no obligation to pay for things to conform to a buyer's desires.

With the experience I have buying 2 homes in CA, I can say Real estate is not sold as is, especially when seller signs the repair addendum. This will be called seller defaulting.

"Not necessarily. Real estate is sold as is."

Only if you close. Delaying the closing puts pressure on the seller to fix things. Buyers can walk if they so choose.

"Not necessarily. Real estate is sold as is."

Only if you close.

There's no warranty, express or implied, from a seller to a buyer. Known defects are supposed to be disclosed and that's it. There's no requirement to remediate them. other than basic functional things that should be as what you'd assume. Water pipes should be expected to not leak, roofs should keep out the rain, doors should lock and windows should close. What remains is what's negotiated or not negotiated. .

I am in the opposite position right now. I have an older property with two hvac units. One AC compressor was replaced
last summer, before I was thinking of selling. The upstairs unit had a new furnace installed this year but we kept the same AC unit. I listed the property on an is-is basis and received several offers. Inspection found condensate leak so today I had the AC serviced and found a cracked pan under the a coil. System was also low on refrigerant so he added some.
If my buyer chooses to walk away from the deal, I won't be happy but I am not going to replace the unit. I agreed to fix the condensate leak and that will be fixed. Sure the system should be replaced but age and condition is why the house price per sq ft is lowest on the market. If the buyer wants a new AC unit, they can raise their offer to cover the price and leave the money in escrow until after closing or take a credit. If handled this way, they can put the expense on their low interest mortgage rather than need to come up with the money in the next year or two. The house had a higher amount FHA appraised but first buyer didn't get approved for mortgage. Of course, that plan only works if the house will appraise at the higher amount. Sometimes buying for the lowest possible price isn't the best approach

"Problem is back in the sellers court."

Not necessarily. Real estate is sold as is. Only new real estate has a limited implied warranty either under law or by contract

If a problem has been disclosed, whether something is done or not done depends on the outcome of discussions/negotiations. The seller is usually under no obligation to pay for things to conform to a buyer's desires.

A real estate contract to buy a home is an agreement "more or less" to decide what the home is worth in dollars between two parties. Repair(s) no matter how they are done to a 20 year old unit doesn't negate the fact it's 20 years old. If you really want this house, the better way is to figure it's worth in dollars as it sits today. In this RE market forget about putting a $15K price tag on a new HVAC system unless you don't care about getting the house.

The time it might take you to find another home you like, is time you're not getting back. The same could be said to the seller, but only if we were in a buyer's market.

Freon 22 is old, out of date. We are in pandemic era --- where certain things are lucky to be had at all. --- so there are complications being to "repair" a system that uses R22 Freon, right now. Maybe this changes later on. Right now... it's ugly.

Some manufacturer's are requiring multi piece repair / replace schemes and in some cases higher end equipment.

The original home owner (seller) owns something that is "also" in short supply.

Being a buyer of a home that didn't get any offers this time... doesn't put you in that great of a spot. If the seller thinks they might have trouble getting another offer, only then might they concede.

Just realize any work the buyer does for you, will be in their name not yours. Once you take ownership warranty length "typically" reverts to 5 year part. This is why it's truly in your best interest to place an offer to what you think the home is worth as it stands now.

Time: you're not getting that back. The common theme I here from sellers vs buyers right now... is the sellers tell you if you want new everything, go buy yourself a "new" house. The buyers (now) may have had a home under contract and the builder cancelled it... thus putting more buying pressure on older homes.

Things are far from what is considered "normal" in RE buying right now.

Also it varies as to how long it takes freon to leak back out of a system. The recharge could last as long as a year. It could last as short as a few weeks. to a few days. Not the proper way to do things, but choices as to what to do or not do --- are limited.

You can't buy something that doesn't exist. If you think this is bubble terrority keep renting... or shell out the money. Right now there are no signs this is going to stop. In a few months, maybe something brings down this house of cards? Your guess is as good as mine.

I own two homes. None are for sale. Bubble Yum, Bubblicious, Hubba Bubba, Double Bubble, Bazooka Joe... all of which could define a RE market near you.

Elmer,

I have worked with three real estate lawyers. Two of them were very good, and the third was mediocre. On the other hand I have terrible experiences with unprofessional and unethical real estate agents. This is why I cringe when someone states they are asking their agent on advice on buying a house. In my mind the broker has a conflict of interest. Brokers only get paid their commission if the deal closes. They are motivated to do whatever they need to do to get paid even if it may not be in the best interest of their client. Perhaps it is different in places where real estate attorneys are not used. But this has been my experience so far.

I am interested in seeing how this situation gets resolved where the seller has paid for a repair agreed in an addendum, but the buyer says the fix is not sufficient and demanding an additional fix.

Mike it's really pointless to involve real estate lawyers at the residential level.

You do your due diligence checking mechanicals, roof, plumbing, electrical primarily to come to a "price" as to what the place is worth "today" as it sits or as is.

If two parties (buyer & seller) can't come to terms: There is "no deal". In a tight supply market, you may lose the house and have to start over again. What is that worth?

There is reality and there is purple farts and unicorn confetti. What's real now, may change next month, next year or 2 years from now.

A flipper will buy a house, put lipstick on a pig and sell it for a fat profit. So take your pick.

"Mike it's really pointless to involve real estate lawyers at the residential level."

Stick to what you know, whatever that might be. It's not apparently this topic.

"This is why I cringe when someone states they are asking their agent on advice on buying a house."

mike, there can be many different ways to do the same thing. A buyer or seller is no more protected from problems or given hope to expect to achieve their goals when using a hack lawyer than when using a hack realtor. There are plenty of both around.

When misrepresentation or other problems or fraud occurs, only an attorney (no matter where or what) should be consulted to remedy problems.

The prevailing practice here for the vast majority of property transactions works fine. My experience is that good realtors do much more than smile and show properties. Their experience dealing with problems and solutions, negotiating (and doing back door consultations) with the other party, providing readily available skilled tradesmen to address or assess issues, is really invaluable. 3% or 6% of our prevailing property values is a lot of money and they're expected to work for it.

Having spent a career working together with my clients' lawyers of specialties away from real estate taught me that really capable and trustworthy lawyers are incredibly valuable but also few and far between. It's not a profession that necessarily attracts or cultivates the same kind of ethics, selflessness and client service that other endeavors do. The bell curve is there to an extent as elsewhere except I think the distribution is skewed downwards.

Thanks everyone for chiming in! I have an update. After fighting with both my and seller agents I was able to get the ac inspected. There was leak in condenser coil and few minor stuff, total cost to fix it is ~2k. Seller has agreed for repairs but hvac repair company mentioned that they cant get coil till Mid September. Owner has signed the bill to pay the hvac contractor directly in September.

Sounds like a favorable outcome. Congrats, enjoy your new home. Hopefully the wait until September won't be in uncomfortable one if you move in.

Good for you for standing up to both real estate agents. Good luck in your new home!

Thanks everyone for chiming in! I have an update. After fighting with both my and seller agents I was able to get the ac inspected. There was leak in condenser coil and few minor stuff, total cost to fix it is ~2k. Seller has agreed for repairs but hvac repair company mentioned that they cant get coil till Mid September.

Yes, that is how you do it. No need for real estate lawyers over $2k repair.

Two parties in agreement is all you need for Residential Real Estate.

Congratulations on the new home.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

So, there you go. Problem solved. Everyone lives happily ever after.

For a new buyer or seller reading this thread, here is the take away. You get an inspection by an generalist inspector. Depending upon the results, the inspection process isn't finished. Between your inspector, your agent and your commonsense, you will need to get a specialist to determine if there is a real issue and find out the way and cost to to remediate the issue. It may be nothing, it may be a small something or it may be a big problem waiting to crush you. Knowledge is power.

As you can see from the discussion, there are million different ways to handle a resolution. The one thing you must remember as a buyer is to be prepared to walk away to prevent acquiring a hidden money pit. As a seller, you must try to be as cooperative as possible while keeping an eye on your profit or loss. All of this requires credible information and eventually some cooperation.

It is always buyer beware. Real estate is the last of the great horse trades. Know what you are getting yourself into. Don't be pennywise and pound foolish. Hire subject matter experts to give you useful information.

homechef59 - you give some good advice but I question your negative view. Yes, it is wise to get credible information, be prepared to walk, but in my view the AC issue wouldn't make me walk even if I needed to install a new unit. I do question those that get thrown on small isuues, they don't appear ready to buy a house, they all require maintenance.

Buyer beware, but "the great horse trade"?

Ask that the cost of repair or replacement be held escrow...meaning the seller doesn't get his full amount UNTIL ac is up and running and passes another inspection (paid for by seller). Easy.

CMarlin, I don't think homechef59's comments are all that negative. No two houses or horses are exactly the same, so due diligence is necessary. It's a big purchase, and one where prices are subject to negotiation. I'm glad it was resolved to OP's satisfaction.

I was under the impression that defects known to the seller must be disclosed to the buyer. When I sold my house recently, the buyer had an inspector look for problems, and he found a few electrical issues (such as one hidden receptacle with the hot and neutral wires reversed). I told him that I would reduce the price by the amount it cost to fix them, but he couldn't find an electrician in this competitive market, so we settled on a "guestimate" on the cost. A few of the problems were easy for me to repair, and we closed a month ago.

I want someone who has never purchased a home to fully understand the process. I was counting it up the other day. Thus far, I've purchased nine homes. I've purchased homes in Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, New York, and Georgia. I've renovated historic properties, built from the ground up and purchased new construction. I've appraised in Georgia and Virginia. I've acted as my own GC. As an appraiser, I've reviewed thousands of purchase contracts. I've overseen hundreds of construction to perm projects. That's a lot more experience than the general home purchaser will ever experience.

Because every home is unique, every purchase and sales experience is unique. You encounter lots of very honest people, lots of very clueless people and a few outright crooks. People spend more time selecting their next car and cell phone than they do when selecting a home.

Because of the size of the expense and responsibility, it is incumbent on the buyer to be very careful. They should always be willing to withdraw their offer to purchase and walk away after they determine that something isn't to their satisfaction. This is why they should be advised consult a subject matter expert if an issue appears.

HVAC is the most complex system in a home with lots of moving parts. It involves plumbing, electrical and engineering. Typically, a home inspector will not have sufficient expertise to fully diagnose an issue and project a cost to repair or replace. I generalize when I say that that a home inspector won't have this type of expertise, I'm sure that there are exceptions.

If water or foundation issues are identified, an inspection and advice of a structural engineer may be a prudent move. The same goes with plumbers, electricians and roofers. It's good advice to get good advice before the sale, not after.

Once all that is done, the buyer will know whether to proceed or not proceed. I've walked after inspections. I've purchased after getting expert advice, too. As long as you make this a business process and not an emotional decision, the buyer will be in good shape.

In this particular example, an issue was identified and the seller attempted to provide a temporary solution. That R22 that was pissed into the wind was expensive. It's hard to find. I know, I had to make a similar decision on my current home last summer. At 20 years, it was time to replace rather than fill up with refrigerant and calculate the rate of loss over time. I've got a second unit that is on it's last year or two. I'll replace it when it goes DOA.

The buyer had questions. We educated them and advised further actions. It looks like everyone is satisfied with the outcome. There will be little buyer's remorse. That's a good thing.

The local market is important. I am in a moderately priced market which means dirt cheap to California, PNW, NYC, DC etc property owners. In this market, small older houses can be bought for less than $200k, median list is $250k, and $350k will buy most any existing house under 2500 sq ft.
If the price is $200,000, asking the seller to cover several thousand in fixes is a bigger issue than the same amount on a $650,000 house. For a buyer looking below the area median price, expecting sellers to come up with cash to fix issues may kill a deal. In those cases, higher selling price with credits for repairs may save a deal. For a buyer, putting another 10k in the price adds only a few dollars per month but taking that amount from a seller is a lot bigger deal, especially if they are paying off an existing mortgage. My agent warned me that some buyers here are bidding high prices to get a contract then trying to renegotiate the deal on inspection.

If I may repeat...ESCROW. Go to closing with funds held in escrow...$4,350-$12,095 is a good range. Until seller makes the proper repair or replacement he doesn't get the money held back . You own the house and that escrow money is yours.

Honestly, I don't get why this is such a big deal.

You should ask them to do the repairs. If the gas is filled it is going to leak as well. Get the repairs done and you can think about replacing the system as it seems past it efficiency age.