If it were me, I would use as little peatmoss as possible and no compost at all..This is the reason why plants would decline in such a short time in these soils, unless you can repot every other month or so, before the compaction occurs. I would buy a "farfard" mix with more bark than peat. I would find a way to strain out most peat moss from any bagged mix and use the left over bark, perlite and very lttle peat. I would make my own of course, which is what I always do. Or, if you do not want to do all this work, you could mix half and half soil mix and perlite, and hope your mix does not hold water too long and compact just to get you to square one.. Your goal is to use a mix that holds its structure and allows the roots to move and breath as long as possible. It is to use a very course mix, porous and one that drains well. I would also fertilize with a water soluable fertilizer with the major and minor nutrients, or use Foiliage Pro what is what I use.. If you use an organic mix, watch for "fungus gnats", soil compaction which can suffocate roots quickly which causes decline. Watch for spider mites or others pest that like weaked plants, and watch for root rot. You could avoid the root rot from over watering, by placing the plant in a pot just big enough for the roots, but then too it can stunt the growth of your plant by keeping it root bound.. pebbles on the bottom are better left out. They impeded draining and only take up room in the pot. better is it to have more than a couple holes on the bottom of your containers for great drainage.. Mike..:-)

if you looked at mix ratio pdf i posted - the conclusion is that coir can be used instead of peat and actually performs better for a lot of plants - nothing to do with political correctness. all mediums have shortcomings that need to be coped with: if taken 100% by themselves. clearly a mix of sorts performs better. personally i do not use coir as a total substitute for peat, i use half peat half coir peat in a mix that is roughly 35%'peaty' 35% perlite 21%fine orchid bark. i had no problems with the plants that i grow that i listed above (most of them in this mix and on wicks) - using reg fertilizers, not special coir fertilizers. here's a quote from an interesting post i found: I have concluded that coir is by far the best all-around organic potting medium that I have ever encountered. Succulents that have performed superbly in media consisting of from 30% to 100% coir include: Adenium, Pachypodium, Plumeria, Aloe, Agave, Sansevieria, Trichocereus, Mammillaria, Stapeliads, Caralluma, Bursera, Boswellia, Fouquieria, Haworthia, terrestrial and epiphytic bromeliads, terrestrial orchids, and some Euphorbia (I have only a few). Nonsucculents have done excellently too, such as citrus, figs, peaches, blackberries, melons, tomatoes, corn, Asclepias, Hibiscus, and many bulbs including Gladiolus, Lachanalia, Scadoxus, Hippeastrum, and Boophone. I have been using 2/3 to pure coir for tropicals, including tropical succulents such as adeniums. For more xerophytic species I use 25-30% coir, with the rest being perlite and/ or pumice. The only plants that have not done well are some extreme xerophytes such as Mohave Desert cacti, Ariocarpus, many mesembs, and Caralluma socotrana. But I have never had much success with these plants in any medium. (see link at the bottom for more). - 'avoiding its use in combination with these plants' i totally agree with that. any extremely acid and humus loving plant probably should not be grown in it. i do not use it with begonias or african violets (only peat mixes for them). the list of plants that prefer highly acidic soils with large amts of humus (peat as subs) can be easily found, it's not arcane knowledge. -'pH too high to allow the use of lime as a Ca/Mg source' gypsum is recommended instead of lime, as i already mentioned. and that is mostly as initial treatment of the mix (same as lime usage). i'll get a link that explains in detail what happens with calcium in coir, just not today - it's a bit involved; but not more involved then what happens with N in bark ;). there are readily available fertilizers that are formulated for use with coir: they are usually sold by sites selling coir. some coir is already sold pre-treated with calcium (after that no extra supplementation is necessary for the same batch). again, in the above study the same fertilizer was used for both peat and coir. the studies i found indicate only initial 1st month 10% extra Ca req. after that you can switch to a reg. fertilizer. clearly coir is very popular for hydroculture: and the fertilizers are not hard to get. hydro-forum has plenty of info and recommendations. i do not consider it my responsibility to find fertilizers for posters: they have to exercise a bit of initiative after all. i am not here to baby-sit everybody. that is to say, there is no rule that says unless i fully educate ev. interested and provide ind. guidance i should not be even talking about the subject! -coir's proclivity for compaction when watering from the top please, provide at least sev links on the subject for reference. i have not come across anything supporting this statement. preferably as compared with peat. most research that i see indicates that even coir dust (=coir peat) compacts less then peat. it also decomposes slower then peat. -'keeping in mind that watering from the bottom ensures a build-up of dissolved solids in media, unless you do water from the top occasionally to flush the medium' i'll get a link to a study i found recently: on top vs sub-irrigation in coir/peat. it stated the following: coir is often used in sub-irrigation which results in most roots developing at the bottom, not the surface of the mix, as with top watering. minor salt-build-up on top therefore does not cause a problem and can be easily resolved with occasional top-watering with pure water. not copious flushing that bark regularly needs, just a reg watering. so can't see a problem . -'unless its advocates offer clear instruction that allows the individual grower to avoid the inherent potential limitations regularly associated with coir' there are plenty of reg limitations of gritty and bark-based 5-1-1 and lots of pics of dried up plants on this forum, despite all the individual instruction given ;). here's my view: each grower NEEDS to experiment. I am experimenting - so far with no adverse effects AT ALL. but i don't grow ALL the possible plants either. but if there's an interest, i can surely discuss in more detail what and how i grow (but not in this thread). perhaps some new growers prefer clear instruction. it does not mean that unless i provide this clear instruction i cannot discuss the coir topic. -'Individual growers won't find value in coir as a significant fraction of container media ' fantastic generalization, al! so you are speaking with confidence for the rest of readers :). guess what, i don't buy it. but i myself only used it as a fraction together with peat: about 17-20% of the mix. i never suggested 100% coir for home-grower either. i don't even think anybody these days grows anything in 100% peat for that matter. and do i need to provide a dissertation on the subject with clear references, if i want my post to be considered 'useful for readers'? - that would disqualify 99% of posts here :). and so i feel free to continue looking for links AND posting them for others. of course, i actually want to discuss it with other growers, those who tried it and when and how and with what. for me it's not a theoretical issue. and if it's complex (which i think it's not) - it certainly won't deter me from looking into it. in any case, i even read that coir chips are better'n bark! would you believe it! a statement like that just riveted me on the spot! what can be more intriguing then that!?!:))))) Here is a link that might be useful: tucson cactus soc coir praise

In all honesty, I cannot take credit for the wonderful examples and analogies quoted above... they belong to Al. They are important, interconnecting parts of the entire article on container soils and water retention he offers, but they serve to get the point across in a way we can all visualize, which sometimes works better. I recently mentioned in another forum... it might even have been this one... that the gardening industry as a whole exists for one purpose, and one purpose only... that being profit. They found a niche to fill, one where consumers are less likely to take the time and expend the effort to learn the basic science of plant culture and the physics of how water reacts in soils, or mediums... not to mention proper watering technique and nutrition regimens, and other variables that allow us to grow our plants to their genetic optimum. The general public has been sold the same methods and supplies for so long that the whole thing has become rather... stagnant, I guess would be the word I'm looking for... but our automatic reaction is to trust that the industry is offering us what we need, what works. It might work for us, the consumers... but we're not the ones planted in such mediums... our plants are! It also might work from the viewpoint of convenience, because we only have to water or feed so often with the heavier, peat based soils... but that doesn't mean our plants are happy or healthy residing in such soils, and more often than not, we are not getting them to grow anywhere near their genetic potential. An expert, or someone with an understanding of such heavy mediums, who has the experience and know how to properly water and feed to the best advantage they offer might have a fair level of success... but most of us are just average, everyday, weekend gardeners who don't really know what is happening under the surface of our soils. A lot of growers throw out the axiom "it works for me"... and it very well may... but no one else has their exact environment, climate, level of experience and knowledge, plant material, schedule of care, or other variables that could make a small or large difference. It's also kind of a sentence or argument ender for some. They may not want to explore the depths of container growing as thoroughly as someone else, and may feel that the convenience is ok for them. Not everyone is so devoted to growing well. Under the surface of that heavy soil, however, where there is a perched water table, and moisture is held for long periods of time before drying out... roots literally drown due to lack of oxygen, and they die. As the soil dries out, new live roots are then able to re-colonize those areas... and then we come along and water again... and the cycle replays. As this cycle continues to replay, decaying root matter accumulates, causing toxic gasses to form... and the plant is weakened by this continual cycle of death and regeneration, and an inadequate exchange of fresh oxygen and gasses at the root zone. All this prevents our plants from growing as they should... as they could. If we didn't re-pot on a very regular basis, those plants would surely meet their demise. I'd also like to touch briefly on something else we don't talk about nearly enough... the vast differences between growing in the confined space of containers... and growing in the ground. Once you understand the science of growing plants in pots, you understand why a more inorganic approach works best... one where we are in control of the moisture, nutrition, PH, and we're using a medium that holds its structure well, etc. We wouldn't really want to use organic methods with pots because the two environments, that within a pot and that in the ground, are so uniquely different. In the ground, Mother Nature has an entire army of tiny insects, worms, microscopic creatures, fungi and bacterias that all work in unison, decomposing organic matter into usable nutrition, and maintaining and balancing the environment, keeping it aerated, nutrition rich, and drained well. We don't have that same natural army within our containers doing all that work, actually maintaining the environment and keeping it all in perfect balance, and trying to duplicate Mother Nature within our pots would be next to impossible! Therefore, it makes sense to reserve organic gardening methods for the garden outside, and stick with a more inorganic approach for our containerized growing. Outdoors, in my vegetable garden and perennial beds, I use mostly organic methods. I fertilize using composted goat and horse manure, and the used pool water from a group of Muscovy Ducks. For pest control, I try to stick with natural predators and encourage beneficial insects to stick around, like praying mantises, spiders, toads, snakes, and other critters that eat the bad bugs. I use aged natural wood mulch to help protect roots from our frigid winters, and I generally try not to use chemicals or anything unnatural. With my containerized plants, whether I grow them indoors or outdoors, I realize that they depend on me to ensure proper moisture levels, aeration, drainage, protection from damaging insects, the proper amount of light, humidity and temperature... and they need a nutrition regimen in which the food is in a form that is immediately usable for uptake by the roots, and doesn't require anything to break it down further into usable form. Often, fertilizers like fish emulsion and other natural items aren't really broken down enough for immediate uptake, so it pays to check into that when shopping for a container plant food. The garden has a pretty steady food supply going on, so I try to maintain that type of buffet for my potted plants, by offering them a weakened solution of liquid fertilizer that's ready to be up-taken by the roots, and complete with the micro-nutrients needed. I offer it every time watering is necessary. There was more I wanted to mention, but I can't remember what it was, now... oh, well... it'll come to me later. Frank, there's nothing wrong with a grown man, or woman for that matter, getting excited over the pending arrival of new plants! I'd call it enthusiasm for something you enjoy greatly... and part of life is about attaining that state of happiness! I'm happy for you! :-) And I can't wait until next spring, when I'll be in the very same euphoric state, awaiting the arrival of whatever I decide to order! And don't worry so much about getting everything exactly perfect with the Gritty Mix... once you really grasp the concepts entailed, when you reach that epiphany moment, when the light bulb goes on and you think, "aha!"... you'll find that you will begin slightly adjusting the various ingredient ratios you use in a batch of mix to suit different plants, pots, and situations. And I think you've reached that point. Instead of using a topsoil or a manure compost as your "extra moisture retention ingredient", though, I would get a bag of high grade potting soil that doesn't have anything added, like those nasty moisture crystals, or extra feed. Miracle Gro potting soil has really tanked in quality over the past few years, so I pass on that. We use a different brand, though I can't recall the name at the moment. Sunshine is a good brand, too. You want something fairly even and nice in quality. And remember... turface holds a decent amount of moisture, so take care when adding anything else. Eddie Haskell?! No, no, no... you're much too intelligent and funny to play a secondary sidekick role like that! ;-) Thanksgiving... I know... time flies faster the older we get. Remember when you couldn't wait to be old enough to ride a two wheeled bike? And you couldn't wait to go from grade school to middle or high school... to be able to earn your own money... to get your driver's license... to be approved to drink alcohol... so many milestones. Every time I turn around, another decade is gone. I'm only 50, but I feel ancient sometimes. In fact, this has tired me... I'm thinking a nap sounds good. ;-) Have a nice day!

I disagree with nearly all you said, except for a couple of facts: 1) that highly aerated fast draining soils are far easier to grow in and offer plants significantly better opportunity to realize as much of their genetic potential as possible, and 2) roots are the heart of the plant, and w/o a healthy root system, a healthy plant is only a dream. I disagree because the basic premise upon which your claims rest are faulty ..... and I'm sure we can agree you needn't be a bus driver to know what makes the wheels go 'round and 'round. I didn't say that anyone is having trouble growing in high porosity substrates, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. What I said, basically, was what it says on a bag/bale of potting substrate has little to do with what's in the bag. Every packager of retail grow media seriously pushes the limits of veracity in order to capture the unsuspecting buyer, and this extends to fertilizers and hundreds and hundreds of other products which target hobby growers. In my considerable experience, I've come to recognize it's not possible to build a highly aerated medium based on large fractions of fine ingredients. Example - start with a pint of peat in a quart jar, then add a pint of perlite. One would think the o/a air porosity would increase significantly ...... but it doesn't. Perlite is not internally porous. IOW, it is a glass foam which has solidified and trapped air inside internal cells, and the internal cells are not gas or water permeable. A ping pong ball is full of air. Add a dozen to a pint of peat - see if the o/a air porosity increases or decreases. A PP ball cannot ADD porosity because the cell at its center is closed. Let's say the dozen PP balls filled the half jar of peat, so you now have a quart of soil, but the volume of air porosity in the new mix created by the combination of the 2 ingredients is limited to the volume of air space between the original volume of peat particles. When you double the volume of a medium w/o increasing air porosity, you reduce o/a air porosity by 50%. To be fair, perlite has an uneven surface, which would add some air porosity, but the small fraction of air porosity added due to perlites irregular surface can never be even close the the volume displaced by the particle because of its closed cell nature. There is something called a "threshold proportion" that needs to be considered. Lets start with a pint of peat again and start adding pine bark with a 1/8- 3/8" size gradient. When we reach a 50/50 mixture of peat/bark, there is still more than enough peat to fill every all space between bark particles with peat. Where is the advantage in adding the bark. Like the perlite, it simply decreased o/a air porosity, but to a lesser degree than perlite would because barks internal pores are open and gas/water permeable to some degree. Even at 75% bark and 25% peat, the roots will essentially be growing only in the peat, and the air porosity of the usable fraction of medium available for root colonization provides the air porosity of peat alone. In rteality it will be less because the weight of the bark diminishes the loft of the peat, but we needn't rely on that fact to complete the thought. At some point, by continually adding more bark, we'll arrive at the threshold proportion, where there is exactly the volume of peat needed to fill all air spaces between the bark particles. From that point forward, increasing the ratio between the bark and peat rapidly increases air porosity; so, if you really want to take advantage of media which are ACTUALLY highly aerated and fast draining, you'll always be working with media that have a very large fraction of ingredients larger than about .100". which is the particle size gradient at which it is not possible for a medium to hold water in the spaces between particles. Since this is only true when particles are uniform in size/shape, the actual size at which perched water disappears in practical applications will be closer to .125". Perched water is a thief that always flies below the radar until you learn how water behaves in grow media. Substrates based on large fractions of fine products like peat, coir, compost, composted forest products, sand, topsoil, are going to support lots of perched water. An experienced grower can look at the soil, feel the texture, and predict within 1/2" how tall will be the PWT (perched water table) the substrate will support at container capacity. Most bagged media supports in the range of 3-6", with 4-6" being the norm. I can't say how tall the PWT will be in the medium you discuss, but I can say with a good deal of certainty, if the medium is indeed comprised of large fractions of peat/coir, it will be too much for you to make the claims you made. How about we compare. You show me what your healthy root systems look like, and I'll show you what mine look like. Seem fair/reasonable? Al