It doesn’t look like there’s enough aisle space anywhere. Fridge would be better where microwave is.

You have a 20” deep fridge?

Good point. And I definitely should have clarified that point. It’s a full depth fridge. But I am able to recess it into that wall so that only the hinges will be exposed as necessary for it to open properly.

As for the aisle spaces - this layout is similar to what we currently have (some appliance moves- but island the same depth - a foot or so longer). The aisles are 36 all the way around now. I don’t think we can make it any bigger without sacrificing the island. My biggest concern is the fridge - but I think I can get that to 38 inches or so. That’s really why I put that 36 inch cabinet on the end of the island - to make sure the seating doesn’t wind up in front of the fridge.

Post a 2D floor plan showing all measurements clearly . The aisles from what I can guess are all too small. 36" is the min and you need more inforny of sinks, ranges and fridges WQho is designing this ?Cabinet sales people are not kitchen designers they are there to sell as many cabinets as possible That walkin pantry is useless .The cabinets should go to the ceiling for sure.

Seems like the island will constantly be in the way of getting to the fridge. Bending over for microwave doesn’t sound fun. If you put counter depth fridge where microwave is, you could do a pantry with built-in microwave where fridge is. You could also put oven where microwave is and put fridge where oven is. Perhaps make the island a little skinnier to ensure larger walkways. Minimum is 36, but 42 is more comfortable.

Thanks for your comments!

So I am working with some cabinet designers - agree not a kitchen designer. What you see here is me playing with some app on my iPad which is why it’s not 100% perfect. I didn’t want to go post their designs on here. The cabinets will go to the ceiling - or as close as I can to add crown. one place quoted 48”, the other 54” - but both are custom lines so I could adjust between that.

What do you propose for the pantry? Frankly that’s the one part of the kitchen I love currently - so interested in what other ideas you might have if this one is useless. I’m not against a change...but am very cautious of making one without another option I know I will equally love.

I’m also not a fan of a the countertop fridge. It seemed like a good idea - but I’m constantly putting sheet pans in mine - and they won’t fit in a counter depth. Turkey. Pizza boxes. None of that will fit. Some of that has work around - but I think it will just annoy me.

I’ll try to get something which more clearly defines the aisles. But it’s approx 36-38 all the way around. Which isn’t any different than what they currently are. The only difference is that the fridge is currently where the microwave is - but the island doesn’t go down as far. So I am concerned with the clearance in front of the fridge. Is 36 enough?

When you put the fridge where the microwave is, you can hopefully make the working aisles bigger. Are you measuring 36” from the fridge cabinet or the actual fridge? But I’m more concerned that the table doesn’t fit (and doesn’t fit centered on the bay window). The island isn’t really doing anything for you (no appliance, etc). You SHOULD sacrifice its size in order to fit necessary things (like people and table) in the kitchen.

I haven't had an issue with putting a large turkey or half sheet pan in a counter depth fridge. Left over pizza is always wrapped before being put away so no box problem for us. I see the large counter to the left of the sink as essentially wasted space. It's too far from the fridge to be a useful breakfast/snack bar. I think you can get a much better layout than the one above. Can you post a 2D floorplan with all measurments, no cabinets? I'm sure the creative folks here can come up with something better.

Thank you! I will post a blank plan later when I get back to my computer. I see that stretch to the left of the sink as helpful for all my countertop items - toaster oven, kitchen aid mixer, food processor, maybe a bowl of onions/garlic, knife block, utensil caddy (unless it’s in drawer), etc. we have a separate beverage center as well - that small run of cabinets opposite the fridge.

Agree this isn’t the ideal layout. Frankly I’ve been struggling for years to come up with a better layout. After talking with about 6 different cabinet salespeople and their designers - this is the best I’ve been able to wrangle.

Is your fridge recessed into the wall behind it? The 1'9" measurement is confusing, especially since you refer to a full-depth fridge.

If you omit the seating at the island and make it smaller in both dimensions, you can add the extra space to each aisle. You'll still need to account for overhangs of at least 1" on all sides, and a back cover panel for the cabinets.

Consider centering the sink on the left side of the window, which will give you a few more inches of prep space between the sink and range. You could put a drawer MW in the island, facing the fridge, so anyone using it wouldn't need to enter the prep/cooking zone, but it would be convenient to the fridge.

ETA island option with one seat:

NKBA guidelines

New to Kitchens? Read me first.

The struggle is real. LOL Total first world problem.

"Cabinets are 48" Stacked Cabinets w/ 2 doors...The cabinets will go to the ceiling - or as close as I can to add crown. one place quoted 48”, the other 54”"

I am confused by these statements about your upper cabinets. You mention they are stacked - that is usually expressed in terms of what the height of the bottom row of uppers is, and what the height of the top row of uppers is. These two heights are important. Since you have a 9' ceiling, and I think you are getting stacked cabinets from your drawings and what you said, a good proportion would be: 33" H bottom stack + 18" top stack + 3" crown. Other people like a thicker 6" crown, but I would rather have the 3" be in the cabinets.

Make sure you can open the fridge door that is against a wall. You'll need filler there.

I would add some lightness by making the bottom stack of upper cabinets that are to the left of the window have glass door fronts. Glass doors on those cabinets will reflect nicely with the windows, and lighten the wall of cabinets.

Here is the blank 2d layout.

When I say vertical stacked wall cabinets - this is what I mean. 1 cabinet 2 doors to give the look of stacked cabinets. Whether that’s 54 total inches, 51 or 48 I think is still open. I want to take it up to the ceiling.

Oops. Didn’t post the picture.

Also “current” configuration.

One more.

First impression: It's a Pac-man kitchen, and you'll act the part of Pac-man, running around the narrow aisles.

The aisle between the island and the table seems particularly too small. A round table could work better ... but also worse because you'd have chairs on four sides. Really I think you need to lose either the island seating OR the table ... you don't seem to have space for both. And do you need two seating areas literally within reach of one another?

- 36" Deep base cabinet in the island facing the range wall for Pots/Pans. This also prevents island seating from blocking the fridge opening since i only have ~36" walkway

You don't have the depth for seating here.

- Base corner has a 12" utensil Organizer cabinet & a Blind 24" cabinet with a 12" door.

A 12" door is very small ... almost worthless. Have your cabinet maker show you an example of just how small this is. I'd give up this space altogether to make the adjacent cabinets nicer.

- 36" Range w/ 36" Hood - could go to a 42" hood.

This board is kinda crazy about a larger hood, but I've never had any problem with a same-sized hood.

-Island has 18" pull out trash all the way on the right - nearest the table. Plus another 18" Drawer bank and a 24" drawer bank.

You want trash nearer the sink.

- Undercabinet microwave

How much do you use your microwave? If you don't use it much, could it go over to the other side of the kitchen /out of the main work area?

Any thoughts? Concerns? things maybe i can do better? One thought I had is that the fridge seems "lonely". What do you think about putting wall panels on the pantry and/or pantry door to make it look more "built-in"

Agree that the fridge is "lonely". It needs a "landing pad". Could you move the 13'2" opening to the right /scoot the planned cabinet next to the refrigerator?

I don’t think we can make it any bigger without sacrificing the island.

I hear what you're saying, but what you have here is an island-at-any-cost kitchen. Yes, islands are great, but they require a lot of space, and they don't fit into every space. If you want-want-want the island, something else needs to go.

Other options: go with an island without seating (narrower) or a shorter island.

they are there to sell as many cabinets as possible

Agree, and this plan has too many cabinets for the space.

That walkin pantry is useless .The cabinets should go to the ceiling for sure.

You can have a small L-shaped pantry here. Just be aware that you're looking at this:

Not this:

Keeping the fridge where it exists and moving the cooktop to the 98” wall improves the function immensely. Don’t make the island any bigger than it is. I like the stacked-look cabinets but don’t overdo it; 48” with a 2-piece crown to make up the 6” to the ceiling will account for the uneven ceiling. You’re sure all of the soffits can be removed?

Yes. I think all the soffits can be removed. We put an inspection camera up there and they look clear. The only potential concern is some supply line piping above the sink that sits below the rafters. I think we can disguise that - but may mean 48 or 51 inch cabinets.

Re: The Pantry comments here - this is what we currently have. It may not be a true "walk-in" but we really enjoy the storage this gives us.

Regarding the seating at the island - this may be something we can sacrifice if necessary. We dont sit there much, but my 6 year old daughter sits there for breakfast during the week and she likes to sit there and help me cook. Other than that - its not really used for seating at all. Only child. Might not last forever - but she sure loves to help in the kitchen.

Regarding 12 inch drawers - i know they are small. I hated them. But i kinda like this idea - which is what i was going for in my original post.

Here's why you should focus on drawers rather than shelves everywhere you can. The island seems to be the biggest issue here. It blocks you from direct access to the fridge which should be close to the sink and to the dining room (for when you forgot the mayo.)

At the very least, I would have the corner between the sink and range house what's called a Super Susan. It is a wooden lazy Susan on wood shelves with a hinged door. They're usually 36" from corner to each side, but if you can get the 39" cabinet, then all the better. This is a much better option than a blind cabinet and it utilizes the space better than some of those "kidney" pull-out cabinets and for less money. Center the sink in front of the window. My refrigerator seemed lonely too, so I was able to put a 6" deep pantry cabinet (think bookshelf with 4 doors) to back up to the side. I don't know if you have the room for it, but if that is a doorway next to the fridge you could possibly narrow it just a bit. My unit came with 5 shelves and I ordered 2 extra shelves for it -- it holds quite a bit. Regarding your island, I would seriously consider rounding the corners so you are not constantly getting bruised by bumping into them -- same with any other corners on the counter tops. I personally find "utensil organizer pullouts" to be an expensive waste because they don't hold enough. Instead, I bought large bins to hold my cooking utensils in one of the drawers and an expanding silverware organizer for another drawer. I also have a pull-out tray under my sink, which has been incredibly useful. No lower cabinets should be without pull out trays. I didn't like the under-counter microwave because it was too low for my comfort. For the opposite reason, I don't like the over-the-range built-in microwaves (too high up for my comfort). I went with a microwave wall cabinet set at a comfortable height for me. I have enough room between the counter and bottom shelf of the cabinet to have paper towel and a toaster. 12" cabinets are extremely narrow. The insides are only 9" - 10". I think you'll be sorry making that choice for utensils or anything much. Are you going to have an appliance garage for some of your countertop things so you don't have to look at them 24/7? The tambour doors tend to stick and the lift-up doors have 6" of the space devoted to hinges. Your 36" deep cabinets for pots and pans needs to be reconsidered. How are you going to access the stuff at the back if they aren't in pull-out trays or drawers? If they are in pull-out trays or drawers, then how are you going to stand in front of the cabinet and pull out the tray or drawer if your aisle is only ~36"? It's simply not convenient. If you went with the lazy Susan corner, many of your pots and pans will fit in that and then you could put back to back cabinets facing the fridge and sink. Depending on their width, you could bank a shallow cabinet facing the range for canned goods. Another concern (and perhaps I am misunderstanding): you say your ceilings are 9' and you're using 48" stacked cabinets. The numbers aren't making sense to me. a 9' ceiling = 108". A typical counter is 36" high. Then there's 18" of space between that and the bottom of the wall cabinets (at a minimum). If your wall cabinets are going to the ceiling, then you have 54" available for them (including any crown moulding). If you are having really tall wall cabinets, where will you put the ladder to reach things? Plan a space for it! If the space (walls) is built, consider putting tape on the floor to mimic your arrangement and then walk it to see what works or doesn't work before you order cabinets. If you have to, put cardboard boxes and folding tables in the spaces to check for it being too crowded or not convenient for your style of cooking/entertaining. Fewer, but larger, cabinets are more useful and less costly. Do not go with a 42" hood on a 36" range. You won't like the look and it will be too much venting (in my opinion). One more thought . . . how long do you plan to live in this home? What happens if one of you becomes wheelchair bound? Maybe think about wider aisles . . . and seriously consider your needs in the kitchen, not what the cabinet seller/designer says you need. I wish you joy in your new kitchen, but you can go with stock-sized cabinets with most manufacturers. Many of those cabinets can have depth changed or other alterations.

Not a pro so I won’t give further advice on the layout. I have my microwave on a shelf in my island. I am short and cannot stand high ones over my head. If your family will enjoy having it lower, then do it. Your little one can learn to use it later on to reheat her own food. My husband is taller than me and can’t stand it there but knows that I do most of the kitchen work and it has to be where I’m comfortable.
You’re getting lots of great ideas.

Wow! You guys are awesome. A few followups

Q: For those who say this is too many cabinets for the space - where would you cut?

Q: If you feel this is an "island at all costs" kitchen - what options do you see for adding some counter space without an island?

- the proposed 36" pots and pans drawer is 36" wide, but only 24" deep. Error on my part in my original post.

- this is our forever home.

- interesting idea on moving teh doorway and putting a 6" dept pantry cabinet in. Right now - with the exiting trim, we only have about 41". Assuming a 36" fridge, we can probably play with the trim and/or close down the walkway by a couple inches and get that pantry cabinet in there. Interesting thought.

- Agree on Drawers! I want lots of drawers! Or at least pullouts in every cabinet.

- We want to take cabinets up to the ceiling. With 9 foot ceilings - we have 54" to play with. So 33+18 with 3" filler/trim, or 30+18 (or 33+15) with 6" filler/trim, something like that is what we are looking at.

- I think you all are right and my island is a little too long. I'll pull it back a bit. Right not we ahve an island, and a trash can at the end of it. So by moving to undercounter trash, i think we can at least extend it the 1 foot that is currently occupied by our trash can. But more than that may be a stretch.

I think where i am struggling most here is that most people seem to think the kitchen is too crowded with only 36" walkways. But that is what we have been living with for 4 years - and don't really see an issue. And the kitchen is still relatively small, so moving the fridge "far away" from the dining table adds 1.5-2.0 steps (yes - i counted!). So im having trouble seeing the real impact. But then again - there are lots of experts here - so i really appreciate the input.

I will definitely need to think about the undercounter microwave. I like the idea of it - but I need to see a drawer microwave to make sure it will be functional for us. I am not a huge fan of the undercounter "regular" microwaves - they are just too low. Its also something I dont use alot (but others in the house do) - so I may defer to them.

I do not think this is an island at any cost situation. However, 36” deep island gives you room for standard 24” deep drawers/trash bin pullout, but only 12” overhang. That is fine for prep counter. 24” deep island is better because it gives you wider aisles. But 36” island for seating means for knee room you want really tall bar stools and 12” overhang, not standard counter height stools that need 15” overhang. That 3” makes a difference. Will your family enjoy sitting that high up? As for 6” deep pantry cab, you can save money by not moving doors…you have room where fridge is now if you move the fridge. 36” aisle works in your current layout and with one cook, but if your child starts helping prep meals you will need 42” aisles. With your new layout please ensure when appliance door is fully open you can stand directly in front of the door (avoid standing beside it and twisting) and bend down to bottom fridge bin, pull out lowest oven rack or open broiling pan storage drawer, load and unload bottom DW rack, open microwave. Also ensure you can bend down to reach bottom pantry shelf and open bottom drawer in bank of drawers.

Sitting at counter height is definitely most comfortable with a 15" overhang but 12" is tolerable. We have seating for 5 at a 12" overhang and I get no complaints.

After taking into consideration the comments here - I have made some more edits. What do you all think about this general layout? I shrunk the island back down. Put the wall oven back in (i'm thinking a 240V Advantium for MW plus an oven). We'll go to a counter depth refrigerator in this design. We currently have a 33" full depth, so 36" counterdepth is simliar in size. Sticking with 36" hood & Induction range (although 30" might be enough - i do cook a lot - but rarely use more than 2 burners). This keeps the triangle a little cleaner.

I do feel like this limits my counter space a bit - for things like a toaster oven, KA mixer, etc. But maybe if i put my knives and utensils in a cabinet/drawer it might not be too bad. Although there always seems to be an Instapot, Air Fryer, Food Processor or some other appliance out as well.

Considering trash in the island vs. next to the DW. thinking in the island for ease of prep cleanup and the fridge.

Thoughts? on the right track? Anything else you see here?

Is the table and four chairs your dining room or your breakfast area? It leaves very little space for walking around the table. Can the chairs be tucked under the table and out of the way when not in use? Have you considered placing the table running the other direction? If it is the breakfast area, you don’t need chairs/stools at the island. The light pendants are not spaced right over the island.

This is better. Where’s the wall oven, next to pantry? Plan storage spaces for your small appliances.

The table and 4 chairs is a breakfast area. Although honestly its where we eat all our meals. We have a formal dining room (through the door by the range/cooktop) - but we only use that for holidays and when guests come over. The table can go either way. We move it once in a while. in fact, right now its 90 degrees from what is pictured. Its essentially this table below - 54x54 with a built in 18 inch leaf. we usually have the leaf removed, so its 36x54.

I am not totally convinced we need seating at the island either - but my other wife is pretty strong on it as its where my daughter sits a lot and helps cook and eats breakfast. She might outgrow that pretty soon - but its hard to eliminate at this point. Maybe we can get some stools to tuck under the countertop instead of the chairs (same chairs as below for the table and island now)

Yes - wall oven is next to pantry.

and yes - the lights arent centered....i shrunk the island, but didnt move the lights. This is just a rough sketch...details will be worked out once i finalize the rough layout

What if you move island and eat your daily sit down meals in DR? I am always sad to hear people say they pay real estate taxes on square footage in a room they rarely use.

Ha. Yep. We actually have 3 rooms we don’t use - so fully aware of the issue. Huge house. Relatively small kitchen. If the dining room was more open - I’d be more inclined to do as you suggested.

If it is not load-bearing, it may be worth the counter space you gain to tear down the DR wall (cooktop wall) and expand your kitchen into DR.

I’ve thought about that. It’s an option. I don’t think that wall is load bearing as it runs parallel with the floor joists. But I’d certainly get an assessment done before doing it. This is a crude sketch of my first floor. I can certainly move the DR to the wasted room and expand the kitchen. But what does that really gain? It’s just a longer narrow kitchen. I’d probably be at 25x12 at that point. Open to the idea - and it solves a few issues - I just haven’t been able to sketch it out. And my wife also likes the idea of not seeing the messy kitchen from the formal dining room.

Btw - that’s a curved staircase. Didn’t have that option in my cheap app :)

Here is a possible layout using LR as new DR, using DR as new Kitchen with 2 islands for small appliances storage (4’ wide aisles). Don’t see kitchen mess from front hall or formal DR. The bay could either stay casual dining or be a small seating area.

Ok, my 2 cents. I liked your original change better for several reasons….

You will get a deeper fridge that you seem to prefer.

You will have more counter space to the left of the sink (which you seem to want/need).

It gets the huge, bulky fridge away from your bay window. Personal preference here, but I don’t care for any large appliance so close to a window…. it creates more of a closed-in feeling. A nice open counter with normal depth uppers will definitely open up the space and make it more airy and roomy feeling….but maybe that’s not part of your goal?

And although this was stated as a positive, I don’t like having the fridge so close to the eating area…makes me feel like I’m eating in my prep space. I like a separation. Again….personal preference.

But you did question somewhere if 36” is enough space in front of a fridge. That to me is quite cramped. Our pantry/scullery has 40” between a little movable island and the fridge, and it’s pretty much the minimum I would want. It’s fine for one person standing there in front of an open fridge figuring out what they want to snack on, but no room for anyone else to get by.

As far as the location (and convenience) of where your fridge is now, closer to the sink is definitely better and you’re not crossing any isles bringing food to your prep area near the sink. So, there are positives and negatives wherever you locate the fridge. You have to decide what things are more important to you. Honestly though, looking at it again, as far as distance from fridge to sink/prep area both scenarios are almost equal.

Just want to mention also that the generally accepted idea that it’s necessary to have landing space NEXT to a refrigerator always leaves me scratching my head. IMO it’s not actually the best option. This is mentioned all the time here on Houzz and IMO, it doesn’t work well at all in many cases.

Here is a photo of our pantry with the fridge doors open. The truly convenient landing spot is immediately behind where one would be when standing in front of the fridge (landing spot on our little island). The open fridge doors actually act as barriers and prevent one from using any adjacent counter space that’s directly next to the fridge because the doors are in the way. In order to put items on the counter you have to walk around the doors. And depending on how much counter-space one actually has, you would potentially have to close or move the door out of the way in order to place things on the counter….not very convenient. And if you’re loading the fridge with lots of groceries, adjacent counter space is even less convenient. The fridge doors are fully extended here BTW.

And if one has a particularly small landing space next to a refrigerator, it simply doesn’t work at all. With a French door fridge, you are normally opening both doors at the same time so even if you have counters on both sides of the fridge, you are blocked by the doors. I think the landing space next to fridge option only works well with a single door fridge with the hinges on the opposite side of your landing space.

Here is our built-in fridge in our kitchen with small landing space next to it. It’s useless as a landing space because the door blocks everything. Usable landing space would have to be much further down the line beyond the wall oven, and even at that would not be nearly as convienient as the island which is in front of the fridge.

So, I do think the landing space issue in general needs to be revisited taking into account the actual configuration of the specific refrigerator as well as counter length adjacent to the refrigerator.

You also mentioned you will most likely get rid of the soffits, but this particular spot has duct work…

Thank you so much. I dont understand the landing thing next to the fridge at all. You just need a lay down area to put stuff as you shuffle it in/out of the fridge. An island behind the open fridge seems just as good (even better) than one next to it - especially with a french door fridge!

And thanks for your other comments too. I keep going back and forth with where to put the fridge - and my acceptability of a counter depth fridge. The one "pro" to leaving it where it is - is that its also right next to the trash - so its easier to throw stuff away.

I'm also growing on the idea of a cooktop with pots/pans storage in the base cabinet below it. And the idea of an Advantium oven for a MW so we get that "double oven" we had been wanting but didnt really have room for it. I understand the Advantium cannot be installed under counter.

I could always swap the fridge/MW-Oven so I can get the full depth fridge. Still impacts the site line, but not sure there is much more I can do with the space I have.

As for the duct work - I'm tracking. It can be relocated in the ceiling. Either that, or i can leave a soffit in that one spot since it will be over the fridge/range anyway - but ill probably just move it to the ceiling. The ductwork runs in the wall behind it. I've poked some holes in there and had some people look at it. It doesnt appear to be a big deal. Thanks for the eye though!

I mean this with love. Hire a designer. I haven't read through the posts here but it will be money well spent. The designs I have seen are not ideal. A good designer will be well worth the small cost against your total project cost.

Here are a few renderings for your kitchen that I whipped up in 20 minutes. They aren't meant for critiquing as 20 minutes of work isnt even worth a consideration. Instead, maybe be inspired that your kitchen could be so much more.