SHOP BY DEPARTMENT
shipp62

I’m Just About Done…

SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
2 months ago
last modified: 2 months ago

Hi all,

After 4 years of waiting I’m just about done. If none of these 7 Adenium produce flowers this Summer, I’ll be getting rid of them. I’m tired of having to baby them and bring them indoors in the Winter from November through March with ZERO flowers to show year after year. Some people like them for the caudex alone but thats not me. They are taking up too much real estate at this point to be non-producers.

I just took some pictures so you can see what they look like now. If I don’t see buds or blooms between now & November I can send to you bareroot (US only) for postage from 92123.

I’ll post pictures & more details below in comments. 5 I grew from seeds I purchased online & sowed in 2017. The other 2 I purchased as plants in either 2016 or 2017.

Thank you,

Tyler

Comments (84)

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    Probably not a coincidence that after a dedicated fertilizer was used- made to promote flowering,you got flowers.😁

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    2 months ago

    I got tired of my King palms looking a flat camo green. So I bought a palm fertilizer and sure enough,they are getting a darker green. Some plants need a few extra dollars and an extra trip to the store to get going.

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
  • Related Discussions

    Largest worthwhile flower?

    Q

    Comments (16)
    I have a thing for the larger ones... In my garden blooming now that are 7" or larger (minus spiders): SPANISH MASQUERADE (not crazy about the crepe texture, but this one is fabulous!) BAFFIN BAY BEAUTY (and a beauty it is!) In my garden blooming in the next few days that are 7" or larger(minus spiders): BEAUTIFUL EDGINGS (tons of branches and buds, can't wait for this one!) JOHN ALLGOOD (I've heard some mighty good things about this one, and the way it's been growing in my garden, I'm betting it lives up to it's name!) In my garden blooming in the next few weeks that are 7" or larger(minus spiders): RUTH WHITTEN (double!) WISPY RAYS (this one is relatively new for me, but see loveofmylife's post above) On my wish list that are 7" or larger (minus spiders): CALL OF UNIQUENESS CARNIVAL MASK (UFO) CAT CLAWS (UFO) CHRISTINE DIXON GIANT ON THE MOUNTAIN JUMBO SHRIMP LAUGHING CLOWN (UFO) NEON EMBERS (UFO) OVERSIZED LOAD (UFO) ROLL UP CANDY (UFO) SILVER SPOON (UFO) SPEEDO TIJUANA TREASURE TROPICAL SENSATION WIND UP TOY (UFO) WHIRLPOOL GALAXY (UFO) YO BIG MOUTH
    ...See More

    What's in your garden notebook?

    Q

    Comments (5)
    I have a desk that's bursting at the seams with 20 years worth of sketches, garden maps, receipts, plant tags, assorted small notebooks, notes on the backs of envelopes, on the backs of old bills, and on the backs of other notes. I never had a spreadsheet, but I had a text document on my old PC where I wrote notes about what needed to be done and sometimes, about what actually got done. When that computer crashed, I lost the file, so I'm back to shoving my gardening info into the desk. I do have a lot of digital pics covering the past 3 or 4 years, and I keep copies on our web server, so I won't lose them if my current computer crashes. I work with computers all day every day, and like to have my garden notes hand-written on paper; looking back at the old assorted jottings I can really get a sense of what I was doing/thinking when I wrote or sketched out plans. That has a sort of physical component that computer files don't quite capture. Just a personal preference, and of course it depends on your tolerance for chaos - mine's quite high! BUT - if you're documenting your garden on your computer, remember to get a back up of the files somewhere. I should know better than to store anything on a single disk drive, but ... I'm also lazy.
    ...See More

    anyone have/ever installed/know anything about Q SEAL?

    Q

    Comments (5)
    The downside is there are way too many variables that would give the manufacturer a way out of any warranty claim. ph too high in your soaps? sorry, warranty's void. ph too high or low in your cleaners? Sorry, warranty's void. You used a semi abrasive cleaner/brush/rag/whatever to clean your stone? Sorry, warranty's void. These are just a few off the top of my head. Believe me when I tell you-- there's a million of em.
    ...See More

    Dishwasher: can't decide. Miele, Asko, JennAir, Viking, Bosch

    Q

    Comments (29)
    So I got the Miele Diamante Plus G2143SC installed yesterday. I ran it through two Rinse & Hold cycles first and then did a Pot Scrubber with detergent added so that the inside was clean of any manufacturing residue. I loaded it up with lunch and dinner dishes and pans that evening and ran it on the Normal program (the Turbo mode was off). I stayed near the kitchen the entire time and it sounded like it filled with water, pre-washed, drained, filled, pre-washed again (why?), drained, filled, washed (heard detergent door open), drained, filled, rinsed, drained, dried. Also, during the end rinse (which took about 30 minutes total), the last 15 minutes it sounded louder, like it was using higher water pressure. The entire time using the Normal cycle from start to end when it drained the final rinse water was 2 hours! The original GE Profile I had 3 years ago took about an hour using Normal, and the Electrolux from 2 years ago was about 1.5 hours. Tonight I going to use Normal again, but also with the Turbo mode turned on and see if there is any difference. Whenever it starts to fill with water, there is a slight is slight gurgling sound, but it only last for about 5 seconds and then fills pretty quite. During the pre-wash, wash, and rinse, it was very quite while running (more so than the GE and Electrolux I owned). I did hear (at the local Miele showroom) a Optima in use a few weeks ago (it has Q3 noise level) and I think it was a tad bit quieter than this Diamante (Q2 noise level) but not by much. When we checked it this morning, everything was perfectly clean (dishes, posts, pans, plastic cups (we don't use real glass glasses too often), and silverware. The plastic cups were dry except on a few that concave on the top where there was some water puddle. There was also a plastic storage container that was used to store left-overs. It was clean, but also has some water on the top part. Everything else was dry and spotless. So with only 1 use down, we're relatively happy with our purchase, and baring any problems down the road, I'd consider buying Miele again. A few other nice things about the way it's made, unlike most other dishwashers (including the GE and Electrolux we had), is that the exterior has it's own sealed enclosure on the sides and top, where most other brands you can see the fiber-insulation on the sides and top. This unit was side mounted (due to granite counters). The way it works is there's two screws on each side top and bottom, right before the water-seal. But instead of it drilling into the sides of the cabinet, they instead push a piece of metal onto the side of the cabinet that hold the dishwasher in place. This is nice, as it eliminates any drilling into the wood, but still holds it very firmly.
    ...See More
  • niksouthafrica
    2 months ago

    Yay!


    High N is never good for succulents, they evolved to grow in low N soils. You are setting the plant up for problems whenever there is rampant growth, for whatever reason.


    Tapla's comments about sexual maturity are relevant: for example, Pachypodium Saundersii only blooms at 4-5 years old. The seasonal triggers of changing light levels and temperatures are also important. This is always a problem with winter- rainfall areas if you have to overwinter the plant inside - the temperatures can be too high at night and the light levels affected by human activity, confusing the plant.


    I hope your blooms live up to expectations. Afaik, the fancy blooms are A. arabicum cultivars/hybrids. Your leaves certainly look different enough.


    Having said all that, I also have an adenium that I wish would do it's thing. And hope I haven't killed parts of by leaving out one night in the coldest winter in more than 10 years.

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked niksouthafrica
  • tapla
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    "Probably not a coincidence that after a dedicated fertilizer was used- made to promote flowering,you got flowers." Non, au contraire! The fertilizer used was a high quality fertilizer by Dyna-Gro called Foliage-Pro 9-3-6, not Bloom-Pro or Flower-Pro, so definitely not one that to the detriment of the plant supplies many times the amount of P the plant can or will use. The ProTeKt 0-0-3 SoCal mentioned also has nothing to do with blooms as all it contains is potassium and opalene silicon. Finally, buds do not form and produce blooms within a week's time, so there is no chance it was related to the fertilizer.

    "I got tired of my King palms looking a flat camo green. So I bought a palm fertilizer and sure enough,they are getting a darker green. Some plants need a few extra dollars and an extra trip to the store to get going." You're buying into the same type of advertising hype that has the uninformed running to buy high-P fertilizers that end up being seriously counter-productive.

    The average plant uses about 6X as much N as P. Fertilizers with NPK % of 9-3-6 supply 7X as much N as P, making it a low-P product by your metric, yet it's all I use and have no trouble achieving a high profusion of blooms and deep green foliage on everything I grow, including some 200 bonsai covering 50-75 different species.







    Note the unopen buds ^^^^









































    Keep in mind what Dave Neal, CEO of Dyna-Gro Nutrition Solutions thinks of High-P fertilizers:

    "You are correct. We market a high-P (Liquid Bloom) and the less informed "believe" they need this. As you have noted, our Foliage-Pro does a great job start to finish. However, it is simpler to give the market what they think they need than to try to reeducate it. There is some evidence to believe that low N helps to convince a plant to stop its vegetative growth and move into its reproductive phase (flowering), but environmental factors are probably more important. P is typically 5th or 6th in order of importance of the six macronutrients. There is little scientific justification for higher P formulas, but marketing does come into play for the vast majority of users who lack any real understanding of plant nutritional requirements. Therefore, the market is flooded with a plethora of snake oil products that provide little benefit and can actually do harm. For example, one exhibitor at a hydroponic trade show had a calcium supplement with 2% calcium derived from calcium chloride. Can you guess what continued application of 2% chloride would do to plants?'
    I hope this answers your question and am sorry for Zina's inaccurate response."
    Cordially,
    Dave Neal, CEO
    Dyna-Gro Nutrition Solutions
    2775 Giant Rd.
    Richmond, CA 94806
    800-Dyna-Gro, Fax: 510-233-0198
    grodave@aol.com
    www.dyna-gro.com

    Just trying to keep it real.

    Al

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked tapla
  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    2 months ago

    I like real. So I went to HD and bought Vigoro palm,et al fert. 8-4-8. As i write the bag is in the tool shed so I can't list the micros or amount of. But I haven't heard of bad results from using it,maybe some better results with hard to find ferts?

  • tapla
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    In all honesty, adopting Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 as your go to fertilizer for containerized plants is a good move. It has ALL the nutrients plants normally get by way of the root pathway, in the ratio at which the average plant actually uses the nutrients, and it gets >2/3 of its nitrogen from nitrate sources, which helps to keep internodes short and the plant compact and full. It really is top shelf stuff.

    Al

  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    Al, your plants are GORGEOUS! So healthy and such a profusion of blooms. To any doubters out there, proof that you, clearly, ”know your stuff”.


    stanofh, to clarify, I had used Foliage-Pro only once so far and it was earlier this past Spring once I brought them back outside in late March and potted up. Not immediately, but maybe a week or two later. I’ve been busy since then so had little time to do much else besides watering with the hose. Horrible San Diego tap, I know, but it was what I needed to do to keep them alive at the time.


    Only when I finally had some time last weekend was I able to properly water & fertilize and at that time the buds on the first two plants were already visible.

  • tapla
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    Thanks for the kind words, SoCal. Suggestions: If you habitually flush the medium when you water, you can fertilize the DRs about every 4th watering with a maintenance dose of 9-3-6. It makes better sense to tie your fertilizing frequency to the frequency with which you water, as the flushing of the medium to prevent a build-up of dissolved solids in the medium and to prevent the ratio of nutrients (each to the others) from becoming badly skewed, which causes antagonistic deficiencies even when there would be an ample supply of the nutrient showing up as deficient. Example - too much P in the medium causes a deficiency of (primarily) Fe, but several other nutrients as well.

    Plants other than cacti and most succulents will require more fertilizer. To keep track of how many times each planting has been watered, drop a marble or other object into the pot at each watering. Using a fertilizing interval of every 5th watering as an example, when you're about to drop in the 5th marble, instead you retrieve the other 4 marbles and fertilize that plant. Make sure plants are not dry when you fertilize. Unless the plant you're fertilizing blooms all summer or winter, try to avoid fertilizing when the plant is in bloom. The ProTeKt 0-0-3 requires a low pH to keep it from precipitating out of solution to a form inaccessible to the plant. So, if using any acid-forming soluble synthetic fertilizer (best for containerized plants) like 9-3-6, it's best to apply the ProTeKt as a separate solution. At a minimum, you should never mix the ProTeKt and the 9-3-6 together as a first step; instead, make the fertilizer solution and only then add the ProTeKt to that solution.

    ProTeKt 0-0-3 is a product that holds much value for plants. I'm providing for any with interest, part of an email re plants/ silicon, rec'd from Jianjun Chen, Ph,D, a professor of plant physiology in the Department of Environmental Horticulture, at U of FL.

    (Sorry about the formatting. I couldn't remove it for some reason.)

    Page 1

    GPN-Si

    Jianjun Chen, Russell D. Caldwell,

    Cynthia A. Robinson and Robert Steinkamp

    There is an expressed doctrine that plants need 16 essential nutrient elements to grow.

    These include macronutrients: carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus,

    potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, and micronutrients: boron, chlorine, copper,

    iron, manganese, molybdenum and zinc. In reality, however, plant growth requires far

    more than 16 elements. Of the elements, not included in the 16 but proven a

    quantitatively major inorganic constituent of plants, is silicon (Si). Silicon is the second

    most abundant element on the surface of the earth and accounts for up to 31% of the

    earth’s crust by weight, 3 to 17 ppm in soil solution. It is most commonly found in soil

    solution as silicic acid, H 4 SiO 4 , which is readily absorbed by plants.

    Tissue analyses from a wide variety of plants found Si concentrations in those plants to

    range from 0.2% to 10% of dry weights depending on plant species. This concentration

    range is equivalent to those (in tissue) of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and sulfur,

    four of the included essential elements. Despite this prominence of Si found within a

    plant’s physical makeup, Si has not been considered as an essential element, and not

    been included in any standard formulation of nutrient solutions and fertilizers. However,

    continuing evidence suggests that Si does enhance the growth of a wide range of crops,

    from rice, sugarcane and wheat, to citrus, strawberry, cucumber, tomato and rose.

    Expressly, Si supplements have been widely used in China, Japan and Korea in rice

    and sugarcane production and in Europe for the production of greenhouse crops.

    Subsequently, Si is now considered a “quasi-essential” element for plant growth and

    development.

    In the ornamental plant industry, most plants are grown in containers using organic

    substrates such as peat, bark and coir dust combinations as growing media, in which

    soil is almost completely excluded. Naturally, Si in those media is quite limited. In order

    to determine if Si had ornamental applications, we first tested a series of some widely

    used potting media and found that extractable Si concentrations in those media ranged

    from 10 to 25 ppm where sand or soil was not incorporated (Table 1 shows three of

    tested media). We also measured the Si concentration in shoots of container-grown

    foliage plants and found that the Si concentrations in those plants ranged from 30 to

    500 ppm, suggesting that foliage plant roots absorb Si from the organic substrate based

    media, and apparently translocate a great fraction of the absorbed Si from roots to

    shoots.

    Do Si applications improve the growth of containerized plants? This question prompted

    a series of experiments using containerized foliage plants as models. The specific

    findings were presented at the First International Symposium entitled “Silicon in

    Agriculture” held in Fort Lauderdale, Florida 1999. General findings are discussed here.

    All experimentation was done using a completely randomized design. Note that only

    one cultivar of each evaluated species was used in these studies. Therefore, results

    may vary significantly according to cultivar. J. Chen

    Page 2

    GPN-Si

    Foliage plant responses to Si application

    Liners of 39 ornamental plant species (Table 2) were transplanted into 4” (10 cm), 6”

    (15 cm) or 8” (20 cm) pots containing 60% Canadian peat, 20% vermiculite and 20%

    perlite or a 1:1 mix of Canadian peat: pine bark (orchids only). Plants were fertigated

    with (1) a Peter’s water-soluble fertilizer 24N-8P 2 O 4 -16K 2 O containing micronutrients (1

    gram dissolved in 1 liter of deionized water) and 47 ppm Si (K 2 SiO 3 , Dyna-Gro, Co. San

    Pablo, CA), or (2) the same Peter’s fertilizer with the addition of 20 ppm K (control) once

    a week. Plants were grown in a glasshouse under species required light levels and

    temperature ranges. Medium pH and soluble salts were monitored monthly. Plant

    quality was graded after marketable sizes were reached; plants were then harvested

    and fresh and dry weights were measured. Silicon and other nutrient elements in roots

    and shoots were determined.

    At the time of harvest, all plants were of marketable quality regardless of the addition of

    Si or not. We found that 32 of the 39 evaluated species were able to absorb additional

    Si when Si was supplied, but the remaining 7 showed no response to Si addition. We

    have classified the 32 responding species as Si-responsive and the remaining 7 as Si-

    nonresponsive, i.e. no Si increase in shoots when fertigated with additional Si (Table 2).

    Among the 32 responsive species, 17 showed an increased concentration of Si in

    shoots and had corresponding dry weight increases, whereas the remaining 15

    exhibited Si increases in shoots only with no differences in dry weight as compared to

    the plants grown in no Si-treated media. The dry weight increase in those Si-responsive

    plants ranged from 6 to 80% depending on species. Among them, Dendrobium nobile,

    Anthurium, Spathiphyllum, Chlorophytum comosum and Aechmea fasciata showed an

    18% or more increase compared to their corresponding control. Silicon concentration in

    shoots ranged from 39 to 700 ppm for control plants and 74 to 1498 ppm for plants

    fertigated with Si. In addition, Si responsive plants had greater leaf thickness when Si

    was supplied which could constitute structurally or physically stronger plants.

    The exact roles of Si in plant metabolism are still not completely understood, but a

    general notion is that Si addition improves plant growth, or Si is responsible for the

    improved growth” of plants. Silicon application has been shown to (1) increase leaf

    chlorophyll content and plant metabolism, (2) enhance plant tolerance to environmental

    stresses such as cold, heat and drought, (3) mitigate nutrient imbalance and metal

    toxicity in plants and (4) reinforce cell walls, increase plant mechanical strength thereby

    protecting plants against pathogens and insects.

    Silicon balances plant nutrient uptake

    The use of peat and bark based media often encounters pH related problems, of which

    medium acidification is foremost. With the release of organic compounds from roots to

    the growing medium combined with continuous fertigation/irrigation, the medium

    gradually loses its buffering power and cation exchange capacity; the pH often drops to

    5.0 or lower. Once the pH reaches to this level, aluminum (Al) and manganese (Mn)

    become available.

    Aluminum is extremely toxic to plants, mainly inhibiting growth. We have found that

    without K 2 SiO 3 application, Al in shoots of Anthurium reached 150 ppm, whereas, the

    addition of Si reduced Al to only 41 ppm. This Al uptake reduction is most likely J. Chen

    Page 3

    GPN-Si

    attributed to (1) the increased pH of the potting media after Si application, (2) Si

    adsorption onto aluminum hydroxides which impair Al mobility, and/or (3) the adsorption

    of the mobile Al onto Si-rich compounds.

    Available Mn in media, however, can be readily absorbed by roots wherein great

    amounts of the absorbed Mn will be translocated to shoots. The excess Mn in the

    shoots then often leads to the development of Mn toxicity symptoms manifested by dark

    brown necrotic spots on leaves caused by the accumulation of manganese oxides.

    Golden Pothos (Epipremnum aureum) and several other popular foliage plants fall

    victim to Mn toxicity. Our study with Golden Pothos showed that Si applications did not

    reduce the Mn concentration within the shoots but did mitigate Mn toxicity symptoms in

    the plants. This is because Si promotes the homogeneous distribution of Mn in leaves

    and prevents the heavy deposition of Mn into selected confined areas. Nevertheless, a

    great benefit of Si application is that Si can balance nutrient elements in plant tissue

    through the suppression of Al, Mn and Na and by mediating the uptake of others such

    as P, Mg, K, Fe, Cu and Zn.

    Si improves plant resistance to pests

    In 1814, the scientist Sir Humphery Davy wrote: “The siliceous epidermis of plants

    serves as support, protects the bark from the action of insects and seems to perform a

    part in the economy of these feeble vegetable tribes (Grasses and Equisetales) similar

    to that performed in the animal kingdom by the shell of crustaceous insects”. Collective

    early twentieth century evidence has demonstrated that Si application protects cereals

    from powdery mildew (Erysiphe graminis) infections, and increases the resistance of

    wheat to Hessian fly (Mayetiola destructor) and rice to stem borer (Chilo suppressalis).

    Within the last 30 years, Si application has been shown to reduce disease incidences of

    blast (Magnaportha grisea), brown spot (Cochliobolus miyabeanus), sheath blight

    (Thanatephorus cucumeris) and leaf scald (Monographella albescens) in rice, and

    powdery mildew (Sphaerotheca fulginea), damping-off (Pythium), root rot (Fusarium

    oxysporum), botrytis blight (Botrytis cinerea) and black mold (colletotrichum

    gloeosporioides) in fruit and vegetable crops.

    In 1998, we studied the effects of Si on rooting of ivy (Hedera helix) cuttings. Trays

    were filled with 50% Canadian peat and 50% pine bark. Half of the total number of

    trays were drenched with either 0, 64.6, 132, 261 or 393 ppm of Si solution. Unrooted

    ivy cuttings were immediately stuck into the Si saturated medium. The remaining trays

    were drenched with deionized water only. The second set of designated ivy cuttings

    were soaked in the aforementioned solutions for 24 hours before sticking. All trays

    were placed into a glasshouse under recommended production conditions. Root rot

    occurred due to Phytophthora infection in the water-drenched only treatment. No

    disease symptoms were observed in the cuttings stuck in Si-drenched medium. The

    results suggest that Si has the potential for controlling some ornamental plant diseases.

    The mechanism(s) underlying Si-mediated disease prevention is not entirely known.

    However, its prominent presence in the cell walls, in the form of solid amorphous silica

    and its association with some cell wall proteins does not support Si inertia, as originally

    thought, but does indicate an active biochemical function(s). J. Chen

    Page 4

    GPN-Si

    Silicon application improves plant growth through balancing nutrient uptake, transport

    and distribution in plants, and enhancing the resistance of plants to diseases. We are

    currently generating data on how silicon’s effects on the rooting of cuttings and the

    extension of the shelf life of cut flowers and cut greens.

    About authors: Jianjun Chen, Ph,D. is a Professor, Russell D. Caldwell and

    Cynthia A. Robinson are Biological Scientists at the University of Florida’s Mid-Florida

    Research and Education Center, Apopka, FL. Robert Steinkamp is the Florida

    Technical Service Manager for Conrad Fafard, Inc. Apopka, FL.

    Al

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked tapla
  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    Al, very interesting. I’d heard that silicon was beneficial to plants in helping them to become stronger against pests & disease but have never seen anything this extensive. I do have a question about something, though and I’m hoping you can help clear it up.

    A few months ago I posted a question about the Dyna-Gro products Foliage-Pro & Pro-tekt and wondering whether the order in which they were added to the water mattered. I got varying respnses, one of which was to read the manufacturers instructions on the container (DUH, Tyler!). The instructions on the Pro-tekt bottle I have says to add Pro-tekt to the water first before adding other nutrients. If I understand you correctly, my interpretation of your instructions seem to say something different. Maybe I misunderstood you, though…?


    Sorry the picture posts blurry. If you click on the image, it enlarges & is clear.


  • tapla
    2 months ago

    Your interpretation of what I said is accurate. I think the most important take-away is that one should never mix the concentrates; and, while I have never had any precipitation issues when adding ProTeKt to a solution already containing 9-3-6, I still plan on rearranging the sequence so the ProTeKt goes into the water first, quick mix, then add the FP 9-3-6. Better to follow the advice from those with lots of letters after their names. I'll also make sure any advice I give in the future re this particular matter reflects the directions given on the label.

    Al

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked tapla
  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    Thanks, Al. It looks like your method has been working. I know that occasionally maufacturer labels/instructions do change & wasn’t sure if this was a case of that or not.


    The reason I had asked the question in the first place was because I thought I’d seen some prior posts saying that if added in the wrong order nutrients were bound up making them unavailable to the plants. I didn’t want to waste either product.

  • tapla
    2 months ago

    Their messaging is mixed. My guess is what I originally said was fine, according to the bullet points under the Quick Tips heading below. Here's a screenshot taken minutes ago from their website:


    Solubility is the relative ability of a solute to dissolve into a solvent to form a solution, and the solubility of many compounds depends strongly on the pH of the solution. Temperature also plays a significant role, which is why a precipitate forms if you allow FP 9-3-6 to get too cold. Warming the fertilizer and agitating the solution will put the precipitate back into solution ..... but now I've strayed.

    A precipitation reaction refers to the formation of an insoluble salt which occurs when two solutions containing soluble salts are combined. The insoluble salt that falls out of solution is known as the precipitate. When you mix ProTeKt with an acid-forming fertilizer containing Calcium, like FP 9-3-6, the precipitation reaction produces Ca3(PO4)2.

    My reasoning: Since the only form of soluble Calcium is CaNO3 (calcium nitrate) we know that FP 9-3-6 has CaNO3. CaNO3 and monopotassium phosphate (source of the potassium in ProTeKt) cannot be mixed in the same stock solution at high concentrations w/o a precipitate of insoluble Ca3(PO4)2 (calcium phosphate) forming. So while the term 'bound-up' very well conveys the idea that something is unavailable, it sort of implies that the 'something' was in the ProTekt, but both of the elements/ nutrients that precipitated were ingredients in the FP 9-3-6. Whoda thought it?

    Al


    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked tapla
  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    2 months ago

    Chelates also can be a big difference. Chelated iron being most famous as opposed to the old wives tales of iron nails tossed around a plant. All you really get for that is a ring of rusty nails and possible tetanus!

  • tapla
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    I'm not sure how that applies to this conversation, but I can say that if someone thinks they need to use an Fe (iron) chelate, probably all they need to do is A) ditch the high-P fertilizer they're using because phosphorous is iron's #1 antagonist. IOW, too much phosphorous causes an iron deficiency, which is only 1 of several good reasons to avoid high-P fertilizers, or B) add enough white vinegar or citric acid to the irrigation water to bring the pH down to 5.0. The lower pH will allow the Fe already in the soil to go back into solution and become available for plant uptake.

    It's generally a very poor idea for a grower to focus on supplying 1 or 2 nutrients because (s)he thinks the plant might be suffering a deficiency. Generally, if someone finds need for a chelate it's because of A) a high pH issue, or B) an antagonistic deficiency is in play. In either case, it makes much more sense (and it's cheaper/ easier) to correct the cause than pile on more nutrients. If the fertilizer being used is appropriate and the grower isn't all caught up in trying everything they hear about, hoping it will be the magic elixir that turns a lackluster growing experience around, and the grower is actually using the appropriate fertilizer appropriately, there should be no reason for using chelates for conventional container culture.

    Nutrient Supplementation - Objective

    Whenever we discuss what is or isn't an appropriate part of the methodology we use to make certain our containerized plants get all the nutrients essential to normal growth and good health, it would be best to consider what the objective actually IS in order to be sure our objectives are on target. It's difficult to argue with the idea that our focus in supplying supplemental nutrition to our plants should be on ensuring all the nutrients plants normally assimilate from the soil are A) IN the soil and available for uptake at all times, B) in the soil in a favorable ratio - that is to say in a ratio that, as close as possible, mimics the ratio at which the plant actually uses the nutrient, C) at a concentration high enough to ensure no nutritional deficiencies, yet still low enough to ensure the plant's ability to take up water, and the nutrients dissolved in that water won't be impeded (by a high concentration of solubles in the soil solution).

    At this point, we can accept these premises as worthy goals or argue against them. If accepted, we should then necessarily examine our efforts at supplementation in the light of whether or not our efforts bring us closer to or limit our ability to see these goals implemented.

    We'll never arrive at our goals by approaching delivery of nutrients in an 'a little of this and a little of that' fashion, or by using a chelate. Think 'big picture'. If someone 'thinks' they need to supply more magnesium, don't dump enough Epsom salts on the plant to cause a calcium deficiency. Flush the soil of ALL nutrients and apply a high quality fertilizer like FP 9-3-6. In all likelihood, that would leave the grower closer than they've ever been to reaching the real objective of nutritional supplementation for plants.

    Al

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    2 months ago

    Palm people you might have noticed push high Magnesium use as the answer for certain palms like the Majesty,Ravenea rivularis.

    Later will look at the label of Vigoro to see if it matches up with FP 9-3-6.

  • tapla
    2 months ago

    Most "palm" fertilizers contain more K than usual, not Mg. It's also true that many people swear by Superthrive, but that doesn't change the fact that Superthrive has essentially been called and proven to be snake oil by virtually all who have actually tested it. Many also swear by dosing with Epsom salts for its Mg whenever a plant looks chlorotic. The Epsom salts will cure the symptom of chlorosis, but will not fix the deficiency underlying the chlorosis if the chlorosis is caused by lack of N or Fe, the most common causes of chlorotic foliage. In fact, it will MASK the symptoms of actual deficiencies, leaving the grower and plant in a more tenuous state than before dosing with Mg. If dosing with anything meant to increase the level of Mg (or any other nutrient) w/o increasing the level of all other nutrients so the o/a ratio of nutrients in the soil solution mimics as closely as possible the ratio at which the plant actually USES the nutrients, is to be considered helpful, the most serious limiting factor must be a Mg deficiency, or, the Ca:Mg ratio must favor Ca by a ratio greater than 5:1. Unfortunately, not 1 in 10,000 hobby growers is capable of making that determination w/o sending plant parts to a testing lab for a tissue analysis, and that's probably being generous.

    I'm not sure why you keep introducing all these new off-the-wall topics that don't make sense, but I am sure you're operating at well beyond the limits of your knowledge, and that benefits no one.

    Al

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    2 months ago

    Sorry Dr. Manhattan. But you just said Superthrive is junk and yet the palm experts don't agree with you and then of course Vigoro is nearly the same as the much more expensive fert you are pushing as a cure all for every plant species. THAT is a little suspicious.

    But hey, it America.

  • tapla
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    The Superthrive label lists only ".09% Vitamin B1; .048% 1-Napthyl acetic acid." You needn't take my word for the snake oil status of the product, you can see what Linda Chalker-Scott Ph,D says about it. Linda has made her reputation dispelling the horticultural myths parroted by those who know not of what they speak. You can compare what she says Right Here or see more shots fired across the product's bowin this PDF file(even though it's not mentioned specifically), then compare what I wrote about it upthread ..... and keep in mind I wrote the article upthread before she published her's. It seems we both came down on the same page.

    "Vigoro is nearly the same as the much more expensive fert you are pushing as a cure all for every plant species." Funny - not even close. First, It costs less than $.02 (two cents) for enough 9-3-6 to make a gallon of solution. How much cheaper can it get and how much can you save? Then, the term 'Vigoro' is ambiguous because it covers dozens of different fertilizers. IF you're talking about Vigoro's PALM fertilizer, as you were upthread, the striking differences are Foliage-Pro's NPK %s are 9-3-6 where V-palm 8-4-8, V-palm entirely lacks calcium, none there, and it derives all of it's N from urea or ammoniacal sources, both of which put any plants that get over-watered at risk for ammonium toxicity; whereas, Foliage-Pro contains ALL nutrients essential to normal growth, and derives more than 2/3 of its N from nitrate sources and none from urea. Those are very significant set-aparts that anyone with a basic working knowledge of the nutritional needs of plants should have been aware of before making misleading statements.

    Al

    The destroyer of weeds, thistles and thorns is a benefactor, whether he soweth grain or not. ~ Robert Ingersoll

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    2 months ago

    Urea has since ancient times been used to fertilize plants. In fact, North Korea has asked its people in now 2021, to donate urine to make fertilisers to feed the country.

    Many roads to the same place.

  • tapla
    2 months ago

    Looks like we've come to the point where, if I said that 20 foot chasm should be crossed in a single leap, you'd be compelled to argue it should be done in two.

    Al

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    last month

    By coincidence a fellow plant guy told me that he likes Carl's pool palm fertilizer and if he can't get that,he will use Palmgain.

    I have to ask him if he's heard of Foliage pro.

    You have to admit- telling people that ONE type or brand fertilizer is good for the whole horticultural world of plants is going to get some scepticism.

  • niksouthafrica
    last month

    Apologies for hijacking your thread Tyler but a closer reading of everything Al has written makes me need to ask one question: I've noticed chlorosis in my roses but reading the internet a while back, I came to the conclusion that soil pH is wrong, mostly because I built the bed with bricks and mortar a few years ago before I knew how bad of an alkaliniser cement is for soil and didn't clean excess or treat the mortar before adding the soil and roses.

    Al, you said something about vinegar and water - would this be appropriate to use for my roses and at what concentration? I haven't fertilised or added the obligatory epsom salts "because roses love Epsom salts" as I see the effect of the mortar as being the biggest problem there

  • tapla
    last month

    Instead of twisting and misrepresenting my words to your benefit in order to save face, let's look at what I actually said:

    "I'm actually grateful FP 9-3-6 is available, and recommend it highly as the 'go to' fertilizer for containerized plants. If you run across a plant (hibiscus, tomato, ....) that is known to do better with a seriously different ratio, it's easy to doctor. Usually, the only thing needed to cover all bases is Dyna-Gro's ProTeKt 0-0-3, which provides potassium, and silicon in opalescent form, which makes a remarkable difference insofar as how well the plant tolerates heat cold, moisture extremes, and insect/ disease pathogens."

    I've NEVER said FP 9-3-6 is appropriate for all plants, not once in all the years I've recommended it. It's not my habit to make vague, general, or all-encompassing statements in order to provide myself with plenty of wiggle room in case I'm questioned, and you've witnessed my willingness to qualify and explain to the nth degree anything I say. I'm always happy to take complete responsibility for what I say, but I can't be responsible for what you understand. You prefer to keep changing the subject in hope no one will notice you provided nothing in the way of support for your claims.

    I do commonly mention that Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 IS appropriate for a very high % of the plants we normally grow as houseplants; and, that is absolutely true. I DO use it for everything I grow because it's a superb product, but that I use it for everything should not be taken to mean I don't modify it when it's appropriate to do so.

    And why would you insist on continuing to circle around to "palm" fertilizers in a thread about DRs?

    Al

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    last month

    First test the soil PH. Because it's possible rains and watering has leached the cement after a few years. It could very well be the cause,but test to make sure.

  • tapla
    last month

    White vinegar works great for container media which has a low bulk density (BD) compared to mineral soils. The high BD of mineral soils has a large influence on mineral soils' buffering capacity, so it's unlikely you'll gain any appreciable reduction in pH using vinegar. You'll likely need to use elemental sulfur or whatever sulfide is most appropriate. If you really have a soft spot for the roses, it would be a good idea to take several soil samples from the bed, combine them, mix well, and send in a sample of the combination of the several samples. You'll get definitive directions insofar as how much of what chemicals are required to balance the soil's nutritional contents and pH.

    I've had the same pH issues with the hypertufa troughs/ containers I make. I generally make them in the summer, then allow them to sit out in the weather until the following spring. That strategy hasn't yet left me wondering about pH issues because of visual cues the plants provide, so given the length of time between building the bed and now, it would seem like you should be close to the potential for upward creep of pH being neutralized. It almost makes me wonder if something else (other than soil pH) might be the spoiler. A lot of cultural influences can cause chlorosis.

    I just noticed the "S Africa" part of your username, which leaves me wondering how arid it is where you live?

    Al

  • niksouthafrica
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Thanks, Al. I'm in Johannesburg, we actually have high summer rainfall but like the southwestern desert areas in USA, it all falls at once because most of our rain comes from thunderstorms. Runoff is extremely high. The desert is also only 5-600kms away on the Western side but on the other hand, if tropical cyclones hit the East, it can rain for a few weeks at a time so we alternate between severe heat and desert winds and tropical rainforest conditions in summer. DRs are native to the Eastern half of my country.

    Are you suggesting then that it's not the mortar but perhaps excessive nutrient leaching? Our native soils are poor and acidic because the underlying geology is shale and quartzite. I prefer to fertilise roses with organic compost, tea leaves and coffee grounds but maybe I should just use a rose fertiliser

  • tapla
    last month

    I meant to mention this in my post above, but got sidetracked by company. I was going to ask if you were sure it isn't a case of low fertility o/a, or perhaps a case where using a high-P fertilizer has caused an antagonistic deficiency of Fe, Mn, or both?

    Quartzite has a low CEC and CEC of shale depends a lot on how silty it is, the more silt the lower the CEC, so it really does sound like there is a case for a general lack of fertility due to leaching, a potential theory that's easy to validate.

    Be careful about adding too much old coffee grounds or tea leaves. Something I wrote about the alkaloids they contain unless they are well-composted. It's primarily written to keep container gardeners from incorporating it into their media, but you CAN use too much in gardens and beds, too:

    Coffee/Tea Grounds

    Forum discussions frequently center on the question of adding dilute coffee/tea or grounds to plants as a 'tonic', but Arabica (coffee) and Camellia (tea) are known for their toxic alkaloid (caffeine) content and their allelopathic affect on plants as well as autotoxic (poison to their own seedlings) effects on future generations. Caffeine interferes with root development by impairing protein metabolism. This affects activity of an important bio-compound (PPO) and lignification (the process of becoming woody), crucial steps for root formation.

    We also know that the tannins in both coffee and tea are known allelopaths (growth inhibitors). There are ongoing experiments to develop herbicides using extracts from both coffee and tea that cause me to want to say they might serve better as a nonselective herbicide than as a tonic. I would not use either (stale coffee or tea) by applying directly to my plants - especially containerized plants; nor would I add tea bag contents/coffee grounds to my container media.

    Al


  • niksouthafrica
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Thank you! I think I'll add the tea and coffee to the compost bin instead and try conventional fertiliser. I haven't used any up to now so if there's a mineral imbalance, it's not related to fertiliser. I will look for something in the 9:3:6 ratio you recommend

  • tapla
    last month
    last modified: last month

    9-3-6 is appropriate for a hug % of containerized plants because the medium is pretty much devoid of nutrients, or at least it should be if the focus is on the medium's structure and long-term serviceability. Pine or fir bark is rich in lignin and suberin. Lignin makes woof hard/strong and suberin is one of nature's best waterproofer if not THE best, so pine/fir bark as the foundation for container media limits soil biota's ability to cleave the hydrocarbon chains in which nutrients are locked; whereas, 9-3-6 is more apt to be inappropriate for use on plants in mineral soil gardens/beds because the "perfect" fertilizer for mineral soil applications will always take into account those nutrients currently/ naturally/ already in the soil when formulating the perfect plan. It's not just Foliage-Pro that would more likely be inappropriate than appropriate, the same is true of all the 'off-the-shelf' fertilizer products because w/o a soil test, adopting any supplementation program is pretty much a wing and a prayer - a wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse.

    Not that it matters much to this conversation, but a fertilizer's RATIO is different than its NPK %s. The RATIO is the more important aspect to consider when choosing a fertilizer for container culture. 24-8-16, 12-4-8, and 9-3-6 are all 3:1:2 ratios. 20-20-20 and 14-14-14 are 1:1:1 ratios. Within a very narrow tolerance, all 3:1:2 and 1:1:1 ratios will deliver the same dosages after mixing. The difference is, you would need to mix twice as much 12-4-8 as 24-8-16 to make an equal strength solution.

    Adding OM to the shale/quartzite native soil will contribute significantly to the soils ability to hold nutrients because on a per bulk density basis the OM is much more capable at nutrient retention. The soil test/ analysis will very likely be what puts your supplementation program back onto an even keel.

    Al

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    last month

    So,your go- to needs adjustment? Well,that's true of any fertilizer for all plants.

    I haven't changed a thing.

    You've written reams and must have forgot you said magnesium salts are worthless for palms. The palm board people recommend it all the time.

    Your favorite fert is probably a good one..but I have met long timers who only use liquid Kelp or seaweeds,others bat guano. There is more science than one product can have in it seems to me.

    Roundup is a concentrated plant auxin. First used to promote root growth. Probably the same with tea or coffee- in super concentrated amounts its toxic..in leftover grounds amounts,not dangerous.

  • tapla
    last month


    Al

  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    last month

    When you fall back to others opinions as "trawling"..then no point going on. Good luck with your perfect formula.

  • niksouthafrica
    last month

    Thank you Al, This has been very educational

  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Bloom from #2. This plant has the soft, furry leaves.






  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Bloom from #1, Pink Panther. Looks nothing like the seed sellers photo above. Please click on the images to see the whole picture.







  • stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
    last month

    Good growing Stewart.

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked stanofh 10a Hayward,Ca S.F. bay area
  • niksouthafrica
    last month
    last modified: last month

    They are pretty in their own right but it's disappointing that the seller sold you them dishonestly - and this thread confirms what I thought: that adenium cultivars are not stable, your seeds can turn into anything, like growing tomato seeds from a tomato you bought at the supermarket will not turn out like the tomato you had

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked niksouthafrica
  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    last month

    YES! EXACTLY! Tomatoes is what I was thinking when I bought the seeds, ignorant Adenium seed newbie I was at the time. You buy beefsteak or cherry tomato seeds and when the fruit develops that’s what you get.

    I only found out how wrong that thinking was after I made the purchase. Still, I was kind of hoping I’d luck out. LOL! I know better now.

    The flowers on a plant can change from one year to the next & I think I have another Pink Panther so I’ll see what happens with that one, if I decide to hang on to them & wait to see.

  • niksouthafrica
    last month

    Yes, I would wait and see what happens over another season. They are well-grown plants

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked niksouthafrica
  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    #6. The seeds were labeled as Black Diamond but it looks remarkably like Pink Panther. If you click on the image you can see the entire picture.







  • cactusmcharris, interior BC Z4/5
    24 days ago

    Tyler,


    I've got just the plant for you, graciously photographed and shared by Mahad Jebiye.


    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked cactusmcharris, interior BC Z4/5
  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    24 days ago

    WOW! Thanks for the image, Jeff. Gorgeous. That is some Adenium alright.

    Let’s see…Flowers…mostly bare limbs…few leaves….Multiflorum?

    I’ve lost a few plants in my day. Never a good feeling, but I think if I lost my A. Multiflorum I’d be more than a little upset.

  • cactusmcharris, interior BC Z4/5
    23 days ago

    That's A. somalense. Puntland, Somalia.

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked cactusmcharris, interior BC Z4/5
  • niksouthafrica
    22 days ago

    Nice flowers Tyler! Even if it wasn't what you expected, still good looking

    SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B) thanked niksouthafrica
  • niksouthafrica
    22 days ago
    last modified: 22 days ago

    cactusmcharris' picture reminded me of this and I was looking for it since last night. Not Adenium but Adenia spinosa. Also highly toxic, I just love this caudex


  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    22 days ago

    Lots of character in both caudexs (caudices?) in their natural environments.

  • cactusmcharris, interior BC Z4/5
    22 days ago

    'Caudices' is correct, Ms. Stewart. You've just won on Succulent Jeopardy.'


    Nik, yeah, I've seen pics like those - aren't they just the most monstery things!


  • niksouthafrica
    22 days ago

    Reminds me of Jabba the Hut haha

  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    22 days ago

    YES! EXACTLY what I was thinking!

  • SoCal Stewart (San Diego, Ca Zone 10A/10B)
    Original Author
    7 days ago

    #4 A. Obesum Pink Panther





Sponsored
Bull Run Kitchen and Bath
Average rating: 5 out of 5 stars174 Reviews
Loudoun County's Expert Kitchen & Bath Renovation Firm | Best of Houzz