Robert, I think Arthur de Sansal is a really good guess! That would be one of my top guesses, too. Eugene B should have some red new foliage growth showing China rose ancestry. Your rose looks closer to Arthur to my eye. I am doubting early Austins, too. There were only a handful of dark red-purple-magenta ones back in the day, and I don’t think your rose is a match for any of them. I’ll check my old Austin rose books tomorrow, though, and let you know if I spot something. Hopefully, others can confirm Arthur de S or point in another direction. Since you will be growing Arthur, you’ll be able to compare in person. That will be both fun and rewarding, and it’s a great excuse to try an Old Garden Rose!

I finally managed to load a few more photos above.

Isn’t Portland Nursery great? We may cross paths there someday.

Carol

@portlandmysteryrose, I live in Seattle and just got Souvenir de St. Anne's this spring. Do you know how tall it is? HCR says it's 3-4', but HMF says it's 5-7'. I'd like to know its size in coastal PNW to plant it in right place. Thanks in advance.

@PDXRobertZ8 Your deep garnet rose looks like 'Prospero' to me. It looks quite modern, not an OGR. Dates to 1982.

Thanks @User I have wondered the same. The owner did think it was an Austin and landscape designer Michael Schultz would have used the latest of Austin at the time of the rose garden install in the mid 80s. Now if I could only find one! :)

@PDXRobertZ8 Long Ago Roses has it in their catalog: http://www.longagoroses.com/Roses-by-Class.html

@User I saw that--but they don't ship to Oregon. :( I emailed anyway to see if there was another way to procure it, but it looks like it can't happen.

Ha, ha! Paul, I was just going to pop over here after Jeri posted that photo. Thank you, Jeri. Prospero. Yes! Carol

Robert, how cool that it’s a Michael Schultz garden!

Heirloom used to offer Prospero. You could try calling or emailing with an appeal. Heirloom did a special order Black Gold for me once a few years ago.

Carol

@portlandmysteryrose I have never met Michael myself, but he was/is good friends with Geof Beasley in Sherwood who has the most astounding garden. If I cannot find that mystery rose, I can at least take cuttings from his so that is good.

Oooooo! The Beasley garden. I toured that once. Incredible!

@portlandmysteryrose isn't it? Geof is a dear friend, and I feel SO FORTUNATE to know him and to see the garden frequently. It is divine.

@Feiy Lo,

Congratulations on your new Bourbon! I haven’t grown Souvenir de St. Anne's, but my Souvenir de la Malmaison, of which it is a sport, never got over 4’. Other bourbons get pretty big here. I am very excited for your SdSA! I’d love to hear how she behaves for you. Maybe you could post about her? SdlM has full blooms and would often ball in wetness, but her remontancy was very good, so I just removed the offending ick and waited for fresh buds. My potted one on a sunny porch handled wet weather much better. SdSA has fewer petals, so she may be completely tolerant of the rain. SdlM’s fragrance was deliciously divine!

Carol

Dear PDX

I've only had to shovel prune c. 5 roses (out of more than 120 cultivars) and M.I. P . was one.

M.I.P. appeared as though it was comprised of rust particles, in my garden c. 7 miles east of San Francisco. I have a no-spray rose garden and have grown c. 120 different Old Roses here.

In the same garden plot, however 'Portland from Glendora' is nearly as fragrant, and of a similar color and extremely healthy. I get 3 flushes a year from it, so rebloom is good. It and Grandmothers Hat are among two of my most disease resistant and best bloomers aside from my Tea rosebushes.

Best wishes,

Luxrosa

@PDXRobertZ8 - I also got rid of MIP d/t its poor disease resistance. You should consider Deuil de Dr. Reynaud. It’s a bourbon with similar color and form but has had great repeat and above average disease resistance. It also has an incredible old rose fragrance.

My AdL is only in it’s second year and so I can’t really recommend it or not.

@Dave5bWY that's a gorgeous rose--I would love to try that one. I'll see if I can find it available anywhere mail order. The color is exactly what I am looking for. Thank you for the rec!

@HU-284226487 the Portland from Glendora rose is a stunner. I need to find that one as well! It's funny, but I basically moved to Portland, Oregon from Glendora, California so the name really struck me as comical. But the rose itself is just lovely. I hope I can find it for sale somewhere!

I just got Portland from Glendora from Burlington Rose Nursery. I’m pretty sure she still has it. Her contact info is in helpmefind.com

Dave, where did you get Deuil de Dr. Reynaud from? What a pretty rose.

Burlingtonroses@aol.com
If you email Burling, she can send you the catalog of what she offers. She has some gems that are hard to find.

'Portland from Glendora's disease resistance is a VERY regional thing. It may be superb in SoCal, but here in the Willamette Valley, its crippled by persistent Blackspot. It copes, but just barely.

@User awwww thank you for that tip! I really appreciate it. I’m hoping that some of your creations at Rogue Valley will be available soon.

@PDXRobertZ8 I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you (RE: Rogue Valley Roses). In recent years they've had problems producing enough inventory (not to mention correctly labeled plants) of many of their roses listed, mine especially it seems. I doubt anything that's out-of-stock now will appear again till 2022. But I don't know who is propagating plants for them these days, so who knows what's possible.

@User oh no! That is disappointing. Ok, I will hope for a miracle.

Paul, it's really heartbreaking to see good roses lost because there is no one to propagate and sell them,

I agree - I keep trolling the Rogue Valley listings hoping for more Barden originals as well as other uncommon roses but I keep seeing the same things offered. I'm hoping that they're able to get more staff involved and recover their momentum.

On the original topic, I do feel the need to stick up for Madame Isaac Periere in my climate. I find that she is largely disease resistant to blackspot for me (we get very little rust) - particularly notable since she's next to the incredible damask crud of Yvonne d'Aragon. She puts out those lovely fragrant dark purple blooms in a spring flush and has peppery fragrance to her foliage. I find her to be pretty trouble free in my dry Midwestern plains.

My main complaint is that she's not often cane hardy and if she's pruned to the ground she can sulk and not bloom that year, like Madame Alfred Carriere. If she has at least some surviving cane and blooms, she's mostly a once bloomer for me, but we can't complain about once bloomers who earn their keep with an impressive bloom at their appointed times!

In my zone, Ardoisee de Lyon hasn't survived winters, nor has Eugene B, so that comparison isn't a fair one in my cold zone. Prospero is touch and go with my winters but Othello seems to be condescending to survive in a protected spot. Munstead Wood is fine with most winters but small, so if you're in a cold zone and looking for that dark purple punch the once bloomers are a much more reliable bet.

Cynthia

@jerijen @User @Nippstress Nebraska z5 I had a chat with owner Janet of RVR about two weeks ago, and she did tell me that they are struggling to keep the stock strong with the ongoing drought. I wonder if this is the cause of the management issues? The drought is severe there.

I cannot imagine trying to keep band roses safe and watered in this heat. Any nursery with potted plants would be having trouble.

@MasLovesRoses_z8a GA - I bought Deuil de Dr Raynaud from Joy Creek Nursey. It looks like they still have it listed, although out of stock as of right now. I also received Portland from Glendora from Burling this spring - I really like it so far.

@Dave5bWY oh Joy Creek is just "up the road" from me. I'll have to see if they might have it available soon. I did hear from Burling. They have it, but it's not ready yet.

Well after two years, my MIP put out a huge display, and then all the blooms fried (even with ample water) in the sun on her SE exposure. She has sat doing nothing except turn a celery green color for several months. I want to move her to a shadier location, but I read that she doesn’t bloom in shade. The fragrance is outstanding. But what a really annoying plant she is in my garden. I can’t decide whether to cull her or coddle her!

I grow Mme Isaac Pereire and other Bourbons in locations that don't receive all day sun. They seem to tolerate this. They take a number of years to have their best blooms, in my experience young Bourbon roses are prone to wilting.

Thanks, @Krista_5NY that is very helpful. Mine is definitely wilting despite ample water. Blooms were great this year until they fried. :)

@PDXRobertZ8

Hi, Robert,

I have Mme Isaac Perierre, Mme Dubost, Yolande de Aragon, Ardoise de Lyon & many OGRs. Check out my thread…

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6274114/2022-2023-my-favorite-old-garden-roses#28612149 Many photos of all my OGRs.

MIP blooms well 2nd year… has little mikdew, but I don’t worry about it in SE exposure. May wilt after couple days bright sun, but big beautiful blooms-outstanding & fragrance unbelievably the best! MIP can grow 8ft. Mme Dubost almost the same bloom & fragrance , but grows 5ft. My 2 favorite roses of my 140 roses due to big blooms, remontant ever blooming & super strong fragrance-THE BEST!

I had Zepherine D-mildew magnet-removed it.

May have done better in super south east afternoon sun.

I have rain all summer, a liitle weekly, so BS & mildew can happen.

Ardoise de Lyon has more mildew, smaller blooms than MIP & AdLyon has less blooms. But I love her beautiful blooms & fragrance! So little spray if needed. Yolanda de Aragon has a bigger bloom and maybe more than Ardoisee de Lyon-gorgeous bloom!-little mildew! Spray of needed. I just love these roses!!!!

Clotilde Soupert is amazing! I had her. I need to get another….. blooms a lot!

But Kitty, my MIP has not bloomed in over two months! Not any new growth either. No buds. Mine is not remontant. It is literally sitting there doing squat.

Robert, try to focus on your other treasures while MIP rests. She sounds like she is not really totally settled in yet.

@PDXRobertZ8

If it is first seasin for MIP, you may see only a few blooms and green leaves growing. . First year rosrs sometimes have only 1-3 buds all season. Second season MIP has a first flush & keeps blooming a little afterwards. Third year, roses are mature & perform at best if nurtured well, MIP will continual bloom.

I use organic soil, Espoma Rose Tone fertilizer , and liquid-Alaska Fish Fertilzer & Alaska Morbloom Fish Fertilizer.. And composts, water, manure and 6+ hrs. The best nurturing will bring on fruitful growth & blooms. And lots of rain water. (I just realized some of my roses get all day sun-they really oerform well.)

My MIP, 2nd year, gets sun morning & afternoon right now, July/August. Wow! Almost whole east /west south side of home & property has sun all day!!!

.

All of the above elements will bring in fruitful growth & blooms when a rose is mature.

Sheila, Do you have a MIP? Any photos? How old is she if you have one?

Does Anyone Else Have Mme Isaac Pereire photos?, Ardoisee de Lyon, Yolanda de Aragon photos? Gorgeous roses!!!

My Mme Isaac Pereire, 2nd year 2023

Ardoise de Lyon, 2023 first season

Ardoisee de Lyon has a flush then blooms occassional through season. (Smaller, but beautiful blooms!)

Yolande de Aragon is more showy, bigger bloom than Ardoisee de Lyon, both gorgeous!

Yolande de Aragon, 1st season 2023

@KittyNYz6 yes, I know all of those things. My MIP is in year three. It gets full sun and plenty of water and fertilizer. I just think it is too hot where it is. I’m trying to decide if I want to put up with the hot summer of no blooms that a lot of folks experience with her, cull her, or maybe see if I can find a better site with a bit less heat. We will see. Your MIP is lovely. Here are a few of mine from this spring:

My Mme Dubost is similar to Mme Isaac Pereire. Mme Dubost is just shorter, only 5ft, Lol! Strong fruity fragrance, contunal blooms always abloom! In 2nd year, but about 6 months older so more blooms. Maybe my favorite rose-at least strongest scent w/ Mme Isaac almost same! Like twins, except MIP can get 8ft.

Mme Dubost

Actually Mme Dubost & Mme Isaac Pereire have different bloom shapes, but sometimes it’s difficult to tell the blooms apart as petal shapes always change .

Robert, I am notoriously aggressive with the shovel. 3 years seems like plenty of time to do something.

If you are a more patient person than me you can pot her up and tell her firmly that this is the last stop before the dumpster and maybe she will surprise you.

@PDXRobertZ8

No worries. Some roses need a little tweaking if care. I see you grow MIP tall. Yours had beautiful blooms! . When you prune her so she’s shorter, more bushy, she may have bigger blooms. Ir bend her horizontal to grow so she sends up more shoots to bloom. If grown straight up, a climber rose blooms less & less.

Not sure how CA sun can slow her blooms down. I wonder if Paul Barden would know?

I’d give her fish fertilzer, too , Liquid Alaska Morbloom, which is best for potassium/phosphorous for blooming! Alaska Fish Fertilizer w/ Nitrogen promotes green growth, too. I use both Alaska fish fertilizer & Morbloom combined! Fish fertilizer really is the best on the market-jump starts any rose if used once a week-for a problem rose. Once a month fish fertilize for regular roses.

No growth of any kind in 2 months means it needs better nutrition and better growing conditions. . Does it get new soil, new compost each spring or have the roots grown into clay soil below ground? If you dug a small hole when planting, it outgrows the hole & hits poor soil below the ground eventually. Poor soil or roots from other plants/trees sliw and can stop growth. You can pot it and start over-eventually it recovers and will replenish itself. Or you can dig around it’s roots, way down, and replenish it’s soil.

Also, it needs good organic fertilizer every month or regular fertilizing.

Kristine, You are great w/ roses! You pot almost any rose that has problems & nurture it to health.

To each his own. I have patience, but others edit out roses and have more dramatic showy gardens and that is wonderful too.

I have space and can cope with resting roses along with bloomers. I hate to kill anything.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR I definitely enjoy my other roses. It's just that MIP has befuddled me this year. It was in a small pot for two years and did quite well and bloomed fine. Then I planted it in a larger pot last summer (in the same location, huge pot--3' tall by 2' wide) and she grew well. This summer she bloomed a LOT. The branches in my pics above (@KittyNYz6) don't show it, but they were completely covered in blooms. I just didn't get a photo because our dog died at the exact same time so I was not snapping photos. But yeah, they were covered in dozens and dozens of gorgeous blooms that then promptly fried in a heatwave in the 90s. Then it has sat for over two months with no new growth of any kind, and the darker blue gray leaves are a celery green color, so I know something isn't right. I just can't figure out what. Except that it is on a south wall of a house that is painted dark grey and just gets too much radiant heat? Not sure. In any case, I'm not losing any sleep over it, just was curious. And I know from others that MIP is not a regular re-bloomer so I wasn't even concerned about that. But I'm used to a lot of new growth by now and have had zilch. So it's intriguing. I assume it's resting, which is fine, but I've not seen a rose rest to the point where absolutely nothing is happening since its spring bloom.

@Kristine LeGault 8a pnw 100% I have no issues with the shovel either haha. In my tiny garden, things have to really perform for me to put up with it. I recently got rid of Laguna (monster), Caroline Victoria (bland), and Joan Fontaine. Not everything I like does well in my garden, and sometimes I have to try it out first to see and learn, if that makes sense. :)

PDXRobertZ8 What a heavy dose of gorgeous roses in this thread -

your photos of Madame Isaac Pereire show her exceptional beauty.

In a somewhat shady area my first year La Reine has mildew on some of the leaves which is distressing every time I survey the situation. A bit more sun would solve it, but I have read La Reine does not like heat. There are a few more precious blooms as time goes by. I remember my old Charles de Mills was horribly sickly the first year , and miraculously adapted with perfect health in it's second year.

This is my analysis after 10 years of roses that came and went in this small garden ; some Old Garden Roses are just worth it if you can stick with them long enough despite their faults, much like friendship.

Although for my front window I chose a modern super healthy , high bloom producing rose.

Thanks @berrypiez6b! So is the point with OGRs that they don't thrive in shade and need to be in sun, but that they may not perform well in the sun until well-established/mature specimens? Because if MIP needs to be in the sun and the blooms fry year after year, I would definitely take it out. But if it's just a matter of letting the plant mature for a few more years, that would be totally fine.

@KittyNYz6 yes, my MIP has terrific soil, gets proper nutrition and water. It gets fed every 4-5 weeks like all of my other roses. The only difference between it and the others is that it gets sun from morning until night and it's growing against a dark grey wall on concrete (it's a giant pot). So I think it's just too hot. I can experiment by trying to move it to a cooler spot with a lot of light (if I can find that goldilocks spot) and see if it helps. All the roses around it look superb tho--it's just this one.

That does sound right to me too, Robert. A cooler spot may help. That does sound curious that it is just this plant.

Here, between heat, soil quality, irrigation problems and gopher predation it can be a mystery too.

@PDXRobertZ8

It sounds like it did well in it’s other location and it does sound too hot 90F next to cement which radiates even more heat. My buds on many roses fry the tips of blooms-which I have to wait until it cools for better blooms. Since your MIP is 3 years and had a sensational spring cool bloom, defintely sounds like resting in this really hot location in summer heat. Why not just move her to a better cooler location? I just love her blooms so I wouldn’t shovel her-her blooms are the best!

My MIP gets all day sun this time of year, but it gets 75-89F w/ humidity and she’s next to other roses…. not as hot as yours & mine then blooms all summer.

I know you will decide what works best for you.

Best Wishes Gardening!

Now I'm wanting Madame Isaac.

@berrypiez6b

Mme Isaac Pereire s really considered one of the grandest OGR roses! It’s more popular than Mme Dubost. I think they are twins almost, except for height. MIP is taller so may have ultimately more blooms! MIP is a super fragrant beauty! They are my 2 best roses!!! Their big plump blooms are the best!