misecretary, thanks so much. this is my first time playing with layouts of anything, so i appreciate your giving it a go.

and yes, the sectional is something i put in just as a placeholder....although, i can't say that i wouldn't want a huge sectional.

i agree that i need an architect, but this has been a useful exercise for me. not only have I created a list of what is and isn't important to me through the process, but now i will appreciate the architect's work more and won't be disappointed with the compromises they suggest.

tangerinedoor, i really appreciate the perspective from another 700sf'er, so thanks for all of your feedback, especially pointing out the unusable space. i can see that now.

maybe i need to go tour some condos, to see how i feel in smaller spaces that have the open kitchen and living room, which seems to be the norm for new developments. i think that i need to get thoughts like kitchen grime getting on my couch out of my head.

are there any guidelines on space between open kitchens and living room furniture?

i'm imagining that having your living room furniture too close to a cooktop would result in problems with heat or grime. is that a thing or just my imagination?

is it just a matter of having a great exhaust fan? or X number of feet?

i'm imagining that having your living room furniture too close to a cooktop would result in problems with heat or grime. is that a thing or just my imagination?

I can imagine the same but none of the plans you shared show that type of proximity. Agree seeing the current plan of your space would help with suggestions. Also, could you share your motivation for this reno? Why do you want a larger living room? Perhaps there are alternate ways to achieve your particular goals.

Hi again. For some reason I really, really wanted to swap the living room and bedroom. That would have utilized the widest space for LR and kitchen. Only thing that stopped it was that darn entry door and fireplace. LoL Well that and when I re-read your post for the 5th time I caught that you couldn't touch that brick wall. Ruined my entire thing. Anyway, I hope you keep us updated cuz it has definitely captured my imagination. Again, good luck.

I just do not dig the galley kitchen along the back. The windows and chases are a doozy, but I would try a version like this once an actual as-built is made. The a/c condenser chase wall needs verified, if you could slide it over you could gain another foot or so in the kitchen/living. And you can have a large bathroom with window version.

3onthetree, i hadn't tried that yet. i'm going to play with that.

i started to get used to that a/c/upstairs plumbing wall being thick because i figured i could stick a pocket door in there. i have doors and doorways all over the place, so the thought of tucking one away was appealing.

it definitely can't move by a foot....but now i'm interested to play with your layout, to see if i can do jogs around about 4', enclosing it in tall cabinets/a pantry.

The last posted layout has a separate door for the bathroom, which is critical. You don’t want people forced to walk through your bedroom when they’re visiting. And yes, a kitchen will feel like it’s part of the LR in a small apartment, but so what? Keep the range on the far wall so only your sink and d/w are in the island.

The bedroom window would be the limit of sliding that wall if you could. If it's just the A/C lineset + condensate those can be relocated somewhat cheaply, though not sure where upstairs unit is.

One thing I like about keeping the kitchen there is the "old bathroom window" would be in the kitchen, and bring light across to the office nook.

Something to clear up though, you said you own the building and rent out the upstairs? If so, you should design the entire rowhouse to optimum living and resale criteria, 2nd floor tenant be damned. When you are able to, financially and when vacant, remodel the upstairs the same as downstairs. All of the plumbing, HVAC, and electrical should be designed with both floor layouts (and basement) in mind. This is a gut - spending that much money, why would you cut a corner and limit yourself rather than moving a lineset, or bricking in a new lintel to enlarge a door opening?

tartanmeup...thanks for telling me that those alternatives aren't too close. i really wasn't sure.

i posted a quick layout of my current plan above, and i'm unsure of what that is missing, what it is that people are asking to see. i googled "as built," so now i know that is, and i don't have those yet.

my motivation for doing a gut (apart from the a/c units) is: a lot of my wiring is still the cloth-insulated; i need a heavy-up; much of the plaster is cracked and repairs don't last, especially the ceiling; my closet is 1930s small; i wanted a bathroom entry from my bedroom; it's time to update the kitchen cabinets and cracked tile floor anyway; the wood floor throughout needs to be redone/replaced anyway; the back french doors must be replaced.

outside of all the repairs and updates, my top priorities are a bigger closet and bigger bathroom.

and i don't need/use my office any longer, so i want to make that space usable, not just waste it.

as for why i want to make the living room bigger, i admit that could be influenced by the lockdowns. (but i'm happy with the size of my bedroom, except for the closet.)

My thoughts on your first option posted. 1. Why is that 2nd exterior door necessary, especially since it makes the laundry room a passthrough room? 2. Doors swing into bathroom. 3. Kitchen with a window is better. 4. No conversation area if you have visitor. 5. Window opposite TV puts glare on screen.

thanks, marylut.

1. the doorways in the brick wall are too narrow for things like a w/d. my w/d, boiler and water heater are in that back area, so i may as well put in a nice wide door, especially since i would have put a window for light back there anyway. once the old framing is removed and then replaced, maybe there'll be a way to make those openings wider...we'll see.

2, 3, 4, 5 noted. much appreciated.

FYI, If you make the first floor unit ADA accessible you may qualify for a tax credit. Kit is 10x10, DR is 5x9, LR is 10x12’6” with 8x10 rug, Bath is 5’6” x 8’4”, BR is 10’6” x 12, WIC and storage is 11’6” x 7’6”.

View from front door.

Ooops, left off 2nd window in BR (patio door becomes window), so BR gets sun from 2 directions like LR does now. This plan has hallway with zig zags unlike clean lines of plan posted above by 3onthetree

This a a whole lot of money spent, for essentially zero ”improvement” on paper to the home, and no corresponding bump in value for that big expense. You're not changing the number of bedrooms, or square footage. That is value added remodeling.

It’s basically what we call a vanity project. You're doing it for your own pleasure, and to improve how you experience the space only. That is certainly a valid reason to spend several hundred thousand, if that is not a burden to your financial future. :)

Just beware of the ”Covid crazy” renovation syndrome that seems to be sweeping the nation and helping to push construction costs to record highs. People want to throw money at home projects because they are simply sick of the same walls. You might want to pause, and see if something less invasive would satisfy the desire for change. Even a $900 haircut doesnt keep its fresh change appeal for long. But it’s a lot cheaper than trying to rearrange your house. HTH

You can’t simply “move” a bathroom and a kitchen. They both require water and waste lines which will be hidden behind cabinetry and inside walls, plus surface fixtures. Electric outlets need to be placed where needed. Plumbing from the upstairs apartment is probably located in the same areas as the plumbing for the lower apartment. Rearranging your plumbing may require you to rearrange the plumbing for the upstairs unit, and you may need to have it disconnected for a while, so do the work while the upstairs unit is vacant. As ABC said, you will gain nothing by moving the kitchen or bathroom. Maybe just update both spaces with new fixtures and cabinetry.

ABC Contracting, you are not wrong. I am doing this for me, not for resale value. But it is also true that every surface needs to replaced or repaired, so I may as well do it all at once and be happy with it. And I live in an area where, if I sold, flippers would buy and sell it for at least $300k more in a few months...more if they added sf with a popup on the roof...which also means I'm basically priced out of my own neighborhood. Plus, it's a property with good income, so if I do move in 10 years or whatever, I would try to keep the property as 2 rental units.

marylut, holy smokes....it's going to take me a bit to process what you've done...thank you!

I love what @marylut suggested! The last floor plan makes the most sense, especially moving the bedroom to the very back bed having the bathroom more forward.
I thought you made yourself perfectly clear as to why you were doing this renovation. And I’m also pretty convinced you know that your costs will be super-high due to COVID and the shipment issues around the world. Take your time, and absolutely get an architect and GC to help figure out your final floor plans and costs.

I am a complete ”newbie” when it comes to looking at floor layout plans! I apologize if I’m asking something stupid!

Without any dimemsions shown, it’s difficult to review the plan. How big is the closet now? It seems pretty big. Also, the plan says “801 sf” I thought this was a 700 sf space?

dmac1108, I think marylut's program added in sf from my patio area. And my current closet is 30x39...so that huge closet would be quite the change!

@gail_72 - right after I posted my comment, I had a feeling that the sf from your patio had been included. I may be confusing you with the OP on another thread - but I thought that I read somewhere in the above comments that you didnt need a huge closet? I’m too lazy right now to look back through them. Just took some new medicine that my dr prescribed - and it’s making me feel a little ”spacey” - that’s why I can’t rememeber whether you made that comment or not!

I feel like there has to be some way to put in a very small half bath/powder room which would provide guests with access to restroom facilities while allowing you to have a completely private bathroom/master bedroom. Adding a half bathroom would also add monetary value to the space.

dmac1108, you did read that here, but it was someone else who was saying she's not a clotheshorse so a reach-in closet would be fine. I need a bigger clothes closet than I have now, and even a small walk-in closet would be nice, but I also need just general household storage.

I can't imagine being able to squeeze in a half-bath, but I know I have been in some tiny ones, so maybe my imagination just isn't good enough.

Sorry about the confusion... you are right, the 800sq ft included the patio! Here is another option with small tweaks to the kitchen sink and tub/shower to keep plumbing costs down. Maybe a more efficient kitchen layout than you have now? Master closet is 7’x7’. I hope there is a way turning the patio double door into a window can be more centered on the BR wall side.

BTW, you explained several great reasons for a total gut job. Plus any safety and health issues with old wiring and plumbing and asbestos. I surely hope this house has some salvageable “old house character” like glass door knobs and tall baseboards and fancy window trim.

this talk about the importance of a separate master bath made me think about my neighbor's bath. she has her own entrance from her bedroom, and then a hallway door for guests....and the two halves are separated only by the sliding doors with the partially obscured glass (bubble glass?) on each side of the tub. it's the funniest thing.

marylut, right? as a tradeoff for the galvanized pipe (most of which i've been able to get to to replace), cloth-wrapped wiring and asbestos around the pipes in the crawlspace, you would think i'd also get some nice things to save. but i think because this was built as a 2-unit rental building, they seemed to have skipped all the fancy stuff....maybe the 1930s version of builder grade.

but in its defense, it's a sturdy thing, and its 1' brick walls will continue to stand for a long, long time....

Yours could look like this! I think as along as the 1/2 bath toilet is within 10 feet of the original toilet, the added toilet can be connected to the existing vent stack.

1\2 bath in the other plan. Not sure where dining spot would go.

@gail_72 - well, I am glad to know that someone wrote something about not needing much closet space - was worried that I might have been thinking about some other thread!

@marylut - without any dimensions, I wasnt sure how big the closet was - just knew it was larger than what she had - and I mistakenly thought she had posted something about not needing much closet space. Obviously, these meds are making me a little ”dizzy” - LOL . Also, I completely defer my opinions to others who actually have experience/training in this area.

It’s REALLY nice of you to spend so much time helping with possible layouts. This is what makes Houzz a great resource!

I think adding a 1/2 bath instead of more closet/storage space is unnecessary. Give me all that room for my stuff instead. I’d clean up my bathroom when guests arrive before letting that precious real estate go to such infrequent use. The main question is how much more room do you want for the bedroom vs. the living room. @Marylut has done a great job with the layout but I’m questioning the 20’ bedroom width. That’s a LARGE bedroom. I’d steal 2 or more feet from that for a narrow storage unit on the hallway side of the bedroom.

No closets were harmed in adding the half bath, lol. Red Ryder, the BR is only 13’ because 7’ of the Sq ft is the WIC. Great point about having more “non-apparel” storage. Here is my take on that and adding a dining area, 42” round table allowing 3’ behind each chair. The wall of Great Room built in storage (or hacked IKEA units) could be entirely enclosed with stylish doors and painted same color as wall, or could make inset for TV.

No one commented on prudence of people sitting on patio looking into BR. I was thinking a long horizontal window high up on the wall over the bed to let in natural light.

For WIC with out an entry door, you could put the closet organizer units behind doors.

my motivation for doing a gut (apart from the a/c units) is: a lot of my wiring is still the cloth-insulated; i need a heavy-up; much of the plaster is cracked and repairs don't last, especially the ceiling; my closet is 1930s small; i wanted a bathroom entry from my bedroom; it's time to update the kitchen cabinets and cracked tile floor anyway; the wood floor throughout needs to be redone/replaced anyway; the back french doors must be replaced.

outside of all the repairs and updates, my top priorities are a bigger closet and bigger bathroom.

and i don't need/use my office any longer, so i want to make that space usable, not just waste it.

as for why i want to make the living room bigger, i admit that could be influenced by the lockdowns. (but i'm happy with the size of my bedroom, except for the closet.)

@gail_72, I spotted your current plan posted now. The office is the whole patio area?

Agree with your idea to visit condos and other townhouses to get layout ideas! A walk through an actual living space (while you imagine moving furniture and bed from entry and room to room) is often more valuable than a two dimensional layout reworked a dozen times. Understanding and seeing space volume when looking at a graph layout is not obvious to everyone.

Lots of helpful people in this forum, pros and amateurs alike but if I were you, I'd also hire an experienced design pro to get on-site advice before moving forward with this gut. There's a lot to be said for how Pros can quickly evaluate a space's flow and light and think outside the box to optimize a living space. Experienced contractors are great allies but few of them are interior designers.

As someone else mentioned, if this gut is done to bring electrical, HVAC and plumbing up to current code, consider the whole building and not just your floor. In any case, don't underestimate your budget. Generously pad whatever estimates you receive, no matter how reputable and reliable your contractor. There are often surprises with such renos. (Apologies if I missed your budget.)

Now, your priorities are a bigger closet and a bigger bathroom. Your current bathroom is around 7'10" x 7' 3"? Not huge but not particularly "small" either. What's missing or not working here? Make sure whatever you build truly addresses functional needs. Not sure I understand the bathrooms in your proposed layouts. I see two tubs side by side? Where is your laundry area currently?

Do you have any other storage space in your building? Is there a basement? I hear you on the bigger closet in the bedroom but need to echo others in this thread: walk-in closets do waste space. A wall of reach-in storage is more space-efficient.

I imagine the current office could simply be refurnished to offer you functional storage now. Repurposing space in a home doesn't need to wait for a gut redo.

Should this gut job needs to simmer on the back burner for a while, replacing the two French doors at the back can be a stand alone project moved up the priority list.

For your living room, carefully consider how much space you truly need for how you use the space. If it's TV watching, for example, optimal viewing distances are shorter than many us estimate. If your current space feels too small, perhaps tricks to make it look and feel bigger would be worth your while. Lockdown fatigue with our interiors is only too real. Sometimes the best remedy is a good purge and reorganizing and a lick of paint.

Best of luck with your project!

Following, loving this dilemma.

Just out of curiosity, have you googled “700 square foot apartments” online? And @tartanmeup makes a ton of great points. My friends are looking to turn a garage into an ADU and between us we got a huge amount of great ideas on Google for small spaces. They are bringing all of them to their architect, who has seen the space iRL. @Marylut is terrific with space layouts, too. But none of us are THERE with you. Just keep us posted when you get to meet an architect so we can hear they’re ideas too.

Agree wholeheartedly with the last 2 comments! I am presenting space planning possibilities, not blue print for actual floor plan or kitchen layout. That being said, here is another layout option that might qualify for ADA tax credit (ignoring plumbing issues but trying to make best use of the windows). I think someone may have posted a similar layout? Is it feasible to do a tankless water heater? Is the stacked W/D working for you or would you dedicate space for side by side models?

@marylut: if you switch the bathroom and closet, Gail’s guests can access the bathroom without going through her bedroom. This is a great layout. Like where the eating area is.

"There's a lot to be said for how Pros can quickly evaluate a space's flow and light and think outside the box to optimize a living space."

Exactly, the non-pro designs presented thus far have started on the wrong foot. Even though the chit-chat is certainly helpful for the OP to gain knowledge, and commenters have donated a lot of valuable time, it seems the wheels are just aimlessly spinning at this point. A local architect should be hired to create an as-built (exact dimensional drawings with all MEP and structure located). Then the OP can make hard decisions about what to move (e.g. lineset), what to repair (e.g. 2x6@24"o.c. sagging joists) etc based on cost/difficulty, how that affects timeline and living there, all based on various schemes the architect comes up with.

@RedRyder, the last layout has a guest 1/2 bath btw DR and mech room! I assume since Gail wondered about adding a 1/2 bath and does not have 2 BRs that she does not need 2 full baths. But that location is further than 10’ from existing toilet and will require a new vent stack going through 2nd floor unit and roof. Because exterior walls can get cold even with insulation and ruin clothing, I purposely kept clothes closet on inside wall.
@3onthetree, you write words of wisdom and hopefully all Houzzers OPs gain value from the exchange of ideas from multiple viewpoints and experiences.

@Marylut I didn’t even see that! How fabulous to add a 1/2 bath! And yes, outside walls in closets can make them cold, but clothes prefer cold to too hot. Unless it’s too cold, of course.

@marylut - I had no idea about potential issues related to clothing in closets with exterior walls. My master bedroom closet has one exterior wall at the end. I’ve never thought about the type of clothing items that I store along that wall. Another item to add to the long list of things I’ve learned from reading posts/comments on Houzz!

Q - would a pocket door work better for the half bathroom? I’ve read comments on other posts about how doors that swing inward on half baths/water closets should be avoided. If someone collapses while in the bathroom, access may be blocked. I never thought about that before. The WC in my master bathroom has a door that swings inward - and, unfortunately, there is no way to replace it with a pocket door.

Also, what app/program do you use to create your layouts? Is there a big learning curve for the user? My daughter just purchased a new home and something like this would be helpful. She would be able to play around with furniture layouts + a few potential renovations prior to moving into the home. Thanks!

It really is very nice of you to donate so much time to helping the OP with this layout!

@dmac1108, Exterior wall in closet sometimes can’t be helped and isn’t a problem if the insulation is thick enough. Could be a problem in older homes. My program is limited and has no pocket door or barn door option, and yes a locking pocket door is a great option in tight spaces like that 1/2 bath, provided there is no hinderance inside the wall. Showing a swing door in the plan helps me understand the minimal room size. BTW, it is easy to reverse the swing on your WC door if there is space. Thanks for asking about the app/program. I use Interior Design app for ipad. It is free, has tutorial and is very easy to learn, has 3 ways to view (floor plan layout, furniture layout, 3D), let’s you save multiple versions, has limited furniture styles but very easy to adjust dimensions and rotate objects, let’s you import floor plan image but is up to you to add windows, doors, outlets, and light switches.

@dmac1108, congrats to your daughter on her home purchase, how exciting! The app helps discover possibilities. The essential knowledge the user must bring to the app for furniture placement is the spacing recommendations around each furniture piece and walking paths through the room. Renovations are much more complex, considering toilet stack, load bearing walls, plumbing and wiring, local building codes, etc.

@marylut - she will engage a professional contractor for the renovations - maybe it will be too difficult for her to ”play” around with different renovation layouts. I’m not sure that she wants to spend the amount of time needed in order to understand all of the plumbing/wiring/toilet stack/etc. issues. I’ve already told her about Houzz - but she hasn’t signed up yet. I think I’ll show her this thread so she will see how generous people are with posting ideas/recommendations/etc.

Recently found out that she’s going to need to add a nursery by Christmas!

Congrats to the Grands! Hope y’all live close by.

Congratulations on the new grandchild!