When you were watering, how wet was your mix? What, specifically, went into your 5-1-1, what is in the potting soil you used? Are you growing in a window or 100% under lights? How deep do you check watering.

Hello bonsai citrus and indoor gardening, I have experience with succulents so I tend to water very deeply and infrequently (obviously not as infrequently for non-succulents). My 5-1-1 was 5 parts 3/8 pine bark fines, 1 part coarse perlite and 1 part FoxFarm Happy Frog potting soil. I have to admit I was somewhat confused about how often to water with 5-1-1 because it seemed like a few days after watering the mixture would be dry. I usually ended up watering about once a week. Here is the potting soil I was using:

Not sure why the picture came out so large. I was growing 100% under lights because I didn't think it would get much sun from the window but I know better now, I should have placed it by the window AND used lights. I plan to do so going forward.

I would dip my fingers in to test the moisture level and also use a wooden dowel inserted into the pot at various depths. I can usually tell by lifting the pot too. Hope this helps.

Especially with something fast draining, like a 5-1-1, you may not want to let it get completely dry. Measuring how dry by lifting the pot is a good indicator. As for growing under lights 100%, that can be tricky. Especially in LED where light level can vary, you have to keep a close eye on what level your LED is at and how much coverage your tree is getting. What direction does your window face? It is always better, especially for citrus, to give them as much natural light as you can. If your room is at 70, that is plenty warm enough for citrus. I wouldn't use a heat mat to make it warmer.( I grow a number of trees 100% indoors at a large window and provide some supplemental light on dark days with an LED and a fluorescent lamp. ) My growing area can vary from 50 in winter to 80 in summer, and there is always at least a 10 degree dip in temp at night. It has never been a problem. Something else to consider is the humidity in your home. If your air is on the dry side, your pot will dry out faster and you'll need to water more. If it is more humid, your pots will dry slower and you can get away with watering less. Don't change everything all at once. Remember, citrus grow slowly, especially indoors. It can take weeks to see any results. So once you change something, just water and observe. Let the tree do its thing, and give it a chance to adjust.

FoxFarm Happy Frog Citrus & Avocado fertilizer, 7-3-3. I put in half the amount they recommended for container trees, about 1/2 cup.

====

you put a half cup of fertilizer in that small pot at the time of repotting???

note they dont say what pot size for said amount: https://foxfarm.com/product/happy-frog-citrus-avocado-fertilizer-7-3-3

i dont think i would have put a half cup in a 5 gallon pot ...

you may have burned the roots ...

ken

Ken, I didn't catch the half a cup of fertilizer. That would definitely be a contributing factor. Also, how do you water?

Hi Ken, no I had intially put in 1/2 cup when I had it in the 10inch pot. I got rid of most of it when I placed it in the 5 inch pot. The bag on the fertilizer says for newly planted trees either in-ground or container, use 1 cup 3x per growing season. That's why I used 1/2 cup but I see now how that might have been too much. I thought I was doing the right thing by using half the amount. I've made lots of mistakes along the way!

I'm trying to get the hang of this forum so I'm not sure how to use the quote function, but Bonsai you asked me how humid it was in the apartment (north-facing), I keep an eye on it so it's usually around low 40's. Bit higher today since it's so hot outside.

My biggest concern right now is about the brown branches. Should I be cutting them to stop the spreading? I have the tree against the wall right now for photo purposes but I will be moving it to the window soon.

To show that they're not all brown:

Am I right in thinking I need to deal with this first? Should I also remove the soil entirely into new 5-1-1 mix so that the last of the fertilizer is gone? As to the 'how I water' question. I fill a watering can and slowly pour it all around into the pot. Let it drain, then about 5 minutes later, water it again. It has a saucer but it doesn't sit in water, I have risers that lift it above the saucer. This tree is making me question everything I ever thought I knew, maybe I'm not even watering right.

Thanks for your help, Ken and Bonsai. Really appreciate it.

If it's elevated above the saucer, then your watering should be ok. It does seem that your saucer is a little small, which may lead to watering less than your tree needs. I usually go very oversized on my saucers, for example: I use a 16 inch saucer for my 10 inch pot. This gives me the comfort to run as much water as my plants need through the roots, in place, without worrying about overflowing my saucer. Then I just leave it. It usually dries before the next watering and helps the humidity around the plants, though I think your humidity may be fine. Another thing that might help is checking out your irrigation water. You can find a report on this from your local municipality. If your PH is high, or there are a lot of added chemicals, your water can be a stumbling block. PH is easy to test with a bit of vinegar or baking soda added to a clean cup of water. Depending on which one fizzes will tell the PH. Alternatively you can use leftover water from boiling purple cabbage to test it. If blue, your water is alkaline, more reddish, acid. I would cut back the black branches about a half inch into the healthy tissue for such a small tree. Then give your tree some time. Don't overthink it. Trees need light, water, soil, oxygen, and fertilizer to give them the nutrients they need to grow. It can take some time to fine tune the requirements in your own environment, and keep in mind that every environment is different (so what works for one person may not work for another. Always take advice with a grain of salt). But if you can provide the basics, you'll be fine. Try not to overcomplicate. Make it as simple as possible, then add complication as you learn what you need.

If I were an artist I would paint up a bag of happy frog product with a frog with a death like look on his face and a snake with the butt of the frog in his mouth and call it unhappy frog.

Steve, interesting that you mention that about happy frog. I hadn't heard of it before, so I looked it up. I was a bit surprised that I can't find any information on what is in it, though it claims to be organic. And the fact that it doesn't differentiate between in ground or container for how much fertilizer to use, seems to be cause for concern.

If I were an artist I would paint up a bag of happy frog product with a frog with a death like look on his face and a snake with the butt of the frog in his mouth and call it unhappy frog.

Oh no, I didn't know they had a bad rep! I thought I was doing better than buying a bag of Miracle-Gro but I admit I bought the soil and fertilizer before I found this forum. It's in 5-1-1 now and a minimal amount of Happy Frog. I won't be using the fertilizer again.

Bonsai - may I ask, are you able to successfully grow citrus trees indoors? As in, have them blossom and fruit? And I understand, I need to learn not to worry so much and overcomplicate things. Getting into citrus has been a great distraction with all the craziness of last year so I may have gotten a little over-invested. I'll make some small changes at a time and see how the tree responds. Hope to have an update in a few weeks. Thanks so much for your help.

Regarding the other citrus trees I just got from a different place, I'm going to try not to stress them out as much as I can. They're bigger and look more robust than the ones I already have. Can I just repot them (without disturbing the root ball) into a 5-1-1 mix? Or is it bad to have 2 different types of 'soil' in one pot? One has blossoms so I don't want to disturb it but the nursery shipped them in a tall and very very narrow rectangular pot. I don't know if I should just leave it until the growing season is done or what. They're from Four Winds Growers if that helps.

Annieplantsny, yes I have successfully grown citrus indoors for the last few years. I had my first harvest of fukushu kumquats last January. So it is possible. Both of my fruiting-age trees are very large for potted trees. And the Fukushu actually came from four winds. I've posted photos of my trees on various discussions here. I hear you about trees being a great distraction. I think my indoor garden has tripled in size in the last year. :D

If you're new to growing citrus I might caution against making your own mix. There are a lot of places to get hung up, and various little things that can add up. I, personally, would find a good bagged citrus mix and start there. You can usually tell a good bagged mix because they tell you exactly what is in the mix. And they're not labeled miracle gro. My favorites usually contain pumice, bark fines, and forest products. But there are other good mixes out there. It usually takes the mix out as a factor. Figure out how to water and fertilize and all from there, then, once you're more confident, try making your own mix. Keep it as simple as you can to start.

As for the trees, I'm assuming they're entry size? Yes, you do want to repot from their shipping pot. If they're premium, they can stay in that pot up to a year. Usually you can pull them out, shake as much of their mix off as you can, and then just repot into a new pot with some fresh soil. Four winds uses a pretty good mix, so I wouldn't worry about it. If your soil mixes are very different is when you can have problems. Hope this helps.

It's not that happy frog is a bad potting soil, it's just bad for citrus. It's great for tomatoes, its was created for growing pot which likes the same type of soil as tomatoes. Citrus likes a much different medium.

I guess that is why that nefarious frog is so happy.

Steve

Thanks Bonsai and Josh.

I've heard kumquats were a bit easier to grow amongst the types of citrus. I'm not sure if I enjoy the fruit, I haven't had one in ages but do really like the way they look, so ornamental. I'll definitely look up your photos. I've been sucked into the Meyer because I just LOVE lemons and cooking/baking with lemons. I also wanted a variety that I couldn't readily find in stores hence the Meyer. :)

Josh, I think you might be right. In not wanting to overwater, i think i went too far in the other direction.

I've been watering every few days with a little vinegar added. I cut the brown parts back and I'm just waiting now. Should I be fertilizing at all? There is a tiny amount of the Fox Farm fertilizer left in the 5-1-1 mix but should I use Dyna Gro Pro or just wait until leaves hopefully grow back?

As for the other trees, I got the premium Meyer (redemption), an entry size Key Lime and an entry size Calamondin (heard they were easier). Thanks for confirming that I can keep the Meyer in the pot for now Bonsai, I think I will do just that. I'm curious about what kind of mix Four Winds uses.

How will I know when to add Osmocote Plus? The trees already have some tiny fertilizer beads in the pots but I don't know how long they last.

Lastly, for the entry size, what size pot would you recommend? I'm thinking of going plastic at Josh's suggestion. Does it have to be as tall as the pot they came in?

Sorry for all the questions but these trees look great and I don't want my apt to become known as the place where citrus come to die. :)

Just tried adding some photos of the new guys but nothing is happening...will try again later.

I mix Osmocote directly into my potting mix, and I fertilize normally with Foliage Pro. A couple months after a repotting, I top dress with more Osmocote. So, my advice is to add the Osmocote, and resume fertilization with Foliage Pro.

I don't have a clear sense of what size container you're using, so i don't know what size you should use. With a well draining potting mix, though, you are free to use any larger size container you like. Don't go smaller, however, unless you are adept at managing the watering and nutrient needs of bonsai.

My Meyer is a standard #5 nursery container, which is roughly 3.5 true gallons, one of these:

Four winds uses a lighter citrus mix with wood shavings, they have a good write up in their growing tips for growing trees indoors: https://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/pages/growing-dwarf-citrus

They have a short blurb on soil. They're also fairly good about answering questions via e-mail about things such as soil/light. Depending on your mix, I would be careful about fertilizing too much, too soon. If you use a mix without added fertilizer, I would definitely add some when I pot the tree, if your soil has fertilizer, I might hold off as you don't want to risk overfertilizing and burning roots.

Your pot doesn't have to be the same height as the containers they send the entry level tree in. A decent 10 inch pot should be just fine for the entry level trees.

This is the 10 inch pot I used for an entry level makrut lime I bought a few months ago. For size reference, the tray is 16 inches in diameter. I wouldn't go much bigger for their entry level trees.

Personally, I would give the trees a few weeks to adapt to their new environment before I fertilized them. But I also tend to be of the school of thought that says not to fertilize a stressed tree, (in general unless I'm dealing with specific circumstances). Four winds trees, especially the premium ones, usually seem to be good for a few weeks with what they pot them in. I'd pot the entry ones, get them set up where I plan to grow them, and then water them normally.

Don't apologize for asking questions! If we don't ask questions, we can't learn.

Personally, I don't really ascribe to the easy/not easy. I would say that kumquats seem to be able to handle cold a lot better and tend to like it cooler. (I usually pull the blinds on hot, over 95 outside, days and rely on lights as they tend to get a bit droopy if they're too hot). Meanwhile my Rangpur has the opposite problem, droops on cold days, doesn't mind the heat. So whether or not a tree is "easy" is less dependent on the tree and more dependent on your environment. But you can really grow any tree so long as you provide for its needs.

I have found the Meiwa kumquat to be very difficult to grow while the Fukushu kumquat is much easier.

Steve, I think it's environmental. Last year I would say my Nagami was fairly difficult to grow, while the fukushu was somewhat easier. This year, my fukushu is being the temperamental one, while my Nagami doesn't seem to care. Though last year was a bit warmer this time of year, and this year it's been a lot cooler. Then again, maybe the fukushu noticed the attention the Nagami got last year and got jealous ;). Haha.

Hello,

I'm here to give an update on my tree. Strange, I didn't see the last few posts, I don't think i got a email notification.I last posted about 2 weeks ago and here is my tree as of today. I've actually kept it in the same spot for now, I've been trying to make changes slowly. The heat pad in the picture is not on, and I've been watering every 6-7 days.

There's one branch (mayber the leader) that is doing all the improving and another one that has some green little shoots. I think I have to cut more brown branches though so there's a little progress but also setbacks.

I think watering is what I'm having real trouble with. Not just with this little tree but the other newer ones that are somehow thriving. I have some questions about those too but not sure if I should make a new post?

I have too many plants to remember how light they all feel when they're in need of watering. Using the knuckle or dowel is not too helpful either because it's hard to know when 5-1-1 feels dry. Lately, the humidity has been very high in the apartment but it seems like the pots are drying faster. I can tell by looking at it for a day or two after I've watered the bark looks damp, but then I just have no clue how to tell.

Worried about the future of my trees if I can't figure it out. Bonsai - I know you advised finding a different, more beginner-friendly soil but I'm wary of most bagged potting soils. I would like to try to make the 5-1-1 work but I'm worried about drying out the trees.

I honestly have no idea why my post gets so long. Thanks for reading!

Just tried including photos but it won't let me submit the post with them...is there a limit that I'm not aware of?

Maybe this will work? Is there an image size limit?

*Nope didn't work. Off to do some reading on how this forum works...or doesn't work...

Annieplantsny, on posting - are you using a phone or a computer? If you're using a phone, sometimes it can be helpful to use the website in desktop mode. It works more like a computer and has fewer problems.

As for the soil, it is very much personal preference. Lifting the pots works for some people, but it doesn't always work for everyone. And some trees get too big/heavy. Soil is typically dry when the soil is more loose and your dowel slides through easily. This isn't always true, (if a tree has a dense root system it doesn't work) but it works ok for smaller trees. Sometimes, if ambient conditions are more bright/warm, you'll need to water more often. If you want a more retentive mix, or don't want the anxiety, there are bagged mixes that aren't as worrisome. (Don't worry, I've had my own issues with bagged soils), but what I've learned is that the better mixes tell you exactly what is in them. If they're vague, then don't buy it. I would avoid anything with moisture crystals or synthetic additives, and ideally look for a mix that contains pumice. You can also pay attention to the leaves, when they start getting a little droopy, water the tree. Eventually you'll get a feel for it.

Well, I just typed up a whole response and Houzz ate it. I'll log in tomorrow and try again. Thanks for listening Bonsai!

Let's try this again!

Latest photos:

How strange that I can post photos again. I've always posted from my computer so I have no idea what happened but it seems to be working for now.

So as you can see, I have one branch that is alive and growing leaves, some are brown which I need to cut and some are green but the little green shoots that were on them have died back.

Is there hope for this tree? I'm not sure why some branches have gone brown. I'm worried I'll end up with a trunk and one branch! Where would additional branches grow from?

I've marked in red where I plan to cut. Do you think that will be enough? I'm just not sure what the tree is trying to tell me. If it wanted to be put out of its misery then why the new leaves??

I would say that the tree is trying to recover. Personally, I would keep watering it as normal and let it do its thing. I might get a bigger saucer and elevate it up on rocks so that I wouldn't be worried about overflowing the saucer when I watered, but that's personal preference. You'd be surprised where you can get new growth. I'd just make sure no rootstock tries to take over.

Thanks Bonsai, it's so helpful to get your thoughts. I actually take it to the sink to water. No way the saucer could hold all the water that comes out, it's just there to catch any drops. Advantages of having a small pot, not sure how everyone who has those huge pots water indoors.

This is from Logee's and I thought that their trees were grown from cuttings? I thought I read that somewhere. If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any rootstock, right?

If it's a cutting, then you should be good and new growth will be your original plant.

As for watering plants in huge pots, I keep mine internally elevated and on a huge drip tray that can hold at least a gallon of water. Then I don't need to move the tree or worry about runoff as the tray can handle it. Mine even have a little drain underneath so I can drain it to a bucket if necessary.

Bonsai, always a big help. Love reading your posts))