Stay tuned everyone. I will update everyone here if anything lessons learned and if I can help someone avoid my mistake I’d be happy with that !

Oh no!! More lawyer speak !! 😂😂😂

Now back to Wood Talk sponsored by Georgia Pacific. Kevin was telling us how he dealt with his stash....

homechef59, I haven't made any plans to sell any of the OSB. To be honest I paid closer to $8 and $9 including the tax but got an 11% rebate from Menards. I think I could get maybe 75% of the retail price but fear with the rate of inflation we're having the OSB will never come down anywhere near the price I originally paid so I may keep it.

I'm kind of strange and buy specific items based on low priced opportunity without a real present need for the items, (hoarder) with hopes of using the stuff at some point. I have 2000 sq, ft of storage full of dimensional lumber piled to the 10' ceilings. I guess I could sell the stuff and buy a car, but It's hard to let go.

Who would have thought that a couple of sheets of OSB, a few studs and a roll of Romex wire would be an alternative to an IRA retirement savings plan?

Kevin, Are you personally invested in the lumber? Does it love you back? An investment or trade isn't successful until you sell it. If you really are a hoarder, then nothing I could say will allow you to sell your investment. If you are a trader, I suggest that you sell enough of the stash to repay your original cost of purchase. This way, you are playing with the house's money. I doubt you can get much for the sawdust. But, you can try.

homechef59, I'll sell it but not at a discount below retail, and no one will pay me retail before going to the store and buying it, and then I'd have to turn around and buy it again. I still have some projects and the initial motivation for collecting the lumber for pennies on the dollar in the first place. I have a little hobby farm and I want a proper pole barn and something I want, but don't want to pay $60k+ for one because it's just a hobby. I have most of the materials (still need the trusses) and once completed will add more to the value of the property in the future then selling the lumber now.

So this is why it's hard to let go. I'm not a nut case hoarder and joking around and sorry If I gave you that impression.

Do you think a $60K+ barn on a hobby farm for about $5k in materials is a better investment than selling the stuff now to make $5k profit on just the lumber?

Here are the list of relevant questions...

1. How much can you sell the lumber for?
2. What would you do with the money once you sold the lumber and what would be the value of that when you are actually building a barn?
3. What will the price of the lumber be when you are actually building your barn?

A pile of wood does not a finished barn make, and comparing the value of a pile of wood to a finished barn doesn't work any more than comparing the value of some steel to the value of a car.

As for the investing... I have never had a single investment go up 80,000% and honestly would never intentionally invest in anything that could. I am a fan of generating equity returns by investing early and often into broad market mutual funds. My biggest investment only had ten year growth of 480% and I am quite thrilled with that return.

Bry911, #1- 75% of retail or $5K to $6K as a guess. #2- If I sold it I'd just stick it in the bank so the answer is nothing. And value of what, the money? #3- The lumber will be a hell of a lot more than I paid for the first piles.

A pile of wood is required to finish a barn, and a pole barn takes a lot of it. If I sell my stash I have no pile so the barn will never be built, and if I eat my seeds I can never grow a new crop.

As for investing, I edited out the 80,000% gain story about a minute after I submitted my comment because of the bragging. But so true it was, six cents to $48 bucks in ten years. The stock ticker symbol is UVE and in 2005 I threw $300 at it for 5K shares based on my contrarian approach and a screener. I rode it from 6 cents up to $25/sh or a 27,000% gain but it kept going to $48. It was a once in a life time trade and because it was such a small % of my portfolio I never came close to 480% over a 10 year period. It was just a small long shot that paid off well and i just consider it dumb luck.

Let me be more clear... A good rule of thumb is buy things you need when they are on sale, but never try to find a need for things because they are on sale. If you need the lumber to build a barn soon... great. If not, don't buy lumber for a barn you might one day build.

As for the investment, I am not a fan of penny stocks. I am generally not a fan of the OTC market system and the fees suck... For every person who turns dimes into dollars with penny stocks, twenty people turn dollars into dimes. It is just roulette without the free drinks.

Kevin, I just didn't want to hurt your feelings if you were a hoarder. If you have a use for the lumber, go for it.

Have you costed building your pole barn out of concrete block? At this point, concrete may be cheaper than wood.

@kevin9408 & @bry911

The key words here are "Hobby Farm". By definition this is more about the experience than the money. A pole barn will cost more to construct than you will gain upon sale of the property, but it may add functionality that makes your hobby more enjoyable.

For many years I owned horses. They were expensive, but I spent time with my horses every day and they brought great joy to my life.

Do people need Sub-Zero, Wolf or Gaggenau appliances, F&B paint for their walls, BMWs or even homes that are >1200 sf? Probably not.

I would feel safe stating that at least 50% of what the average person spends is unnecessary for sustaining life and therefore a luxury. How we choose to spend or not spend that money is extremely personal and there really isn't a right or wrong answer.

As for investments, again, it is a personal choice. How much risk are you comfortable taking? Some people seem to be better at this than others, but for the mass majority we don't know enough to regularly beat out the returns from a good mutual fund. If you have some money to blow and want to play the penny stocks, go to Vegas or buy a few scratch off tickets and this brings you joy then I guess it is okay. I would choose to spend my extra bucks on flowers for my garden or more pens for coloring, a new bedspread or a new painting. None of these things will make me rich, but they will bring me joy.

I agree that investments are a personal choice.

I saw a shift in homeowner attitudes after the "Great Recession" and another in 2020 amid the covid-19 pandemic. Many previously viewed their homes as part of their financial investment portfolio. Choices were often dictated by some imaginary future resale buyer-- even if they didn't suit the current occupants (e.g., a whirlpool tub in the master bath that never gets used by anyone.) Now many folks view their homes as an "investment" in their family's quality of life. It's a refreshing change. I do, however, miss playing the role of Carnac the Magnificent, but I found that needed a special hat which Johnny apparently took with him.

Stay tuned everyone. I will update everyone here if anything lessons learned and if I can help someone avoid my mistake I’d be happy with that !

This ordeal has been dragging on for 3 weeks, when the builder agreed to cancel the contract.

What exactly is the holdup, other than your continued consultation with multiple attorneys, in an effort to protect your ability to complain about the builder?

@Jennifer Hogan - Kevin9408 was talking about the decision to sell the lumber today versus keeping it. That is what I was addressing and that has nothing to do with pole barns or hobby farms or anything of the sort.

Kevin9408 purchased lumber some time ago, the lumber has gone up in value significantly. At some point in the future Kevin9408 will need lumber to build a pole barn. All of that is fine, but Kevin9408 said, "I think I could get maybe 75% of the retail price but fear with the rate of inflation we're having the OSB will never come down anywhere near the price I originally paid so I may keep it." [emphasis added].

I was specifically addressing his, "so I may keep it." Many people struggle with relevant decision making. They fail to properly understand both sunk costs and opportunity costs. Most commonly, people let details that are not relevant to a decision influence the decision. In Kevin's case the fact that he will one day build a pole barn and the fact that lumber may never go down to what he originally paid for this lumber are not relevant. Will the proceeds from the sale of this lumber be in excess of the price he will have to pay for it when he actually starts building the barn is all that matters financially.

Kevin paid approximately $1,000 for OSB. He could sell the OSB today for $5,200. Even if the OSB is three times what he originally paid when he goes to build the barn then it would still only cost him $3,000 to rebuy it. Noting that he will never again pay $1,000 for it or that one day he will need OSB to build a barn are not relevant to whether or not he should sell the OSB. Also, I didn't advise Kevin to sell his OSB, I simply advised that he not let things that are not relevant influence his decision.

bry911 makes a good point about relevancy. My dad has three bedrooms, two living rooms, a basement, garage and four storage units full of promise. kevin, I’m not saying you are a hoarder by any means. Just speaking to the notion that many of us do make decisions based on what-ifs and a skewed sense of ”savings“ or a worry of missing out on a good deal. I suspect you will put that wood to good use someday with the satisfaction of knowing you bought at a good time.

Jennifer, so true there is much waste on this planet. Hopefully the OP and/or contractor can salvage something from this construction project.

As for investments, again, it is a personal choice. How much risk are you comfortable taking?

I don't want to get into a big discussion on investments and I don't believe you are wrong, but I would like to add a bit to your explanation.

Everyone has their own risk appetite and that is certainly an individual choice. However, selecting investments that meet that risk appetite is a function of the investor's knowledge. Financial tragedy can, and quite regularly does, occur when an investor misaligns their risk appetite and their investment selection.

I do some work in a community financial literacy center. A few years ago an older man came to me because he made good income his entire working life, had great job security, and invested for retirement his entire life, however, he still didn't have sufficient funds to be comfortable in retirement. For more than 30 years he had been investing all his retirement money in Money Market mutual funds. He didn't even beat the inflation rate... So there is an element of personal choice, but there is also an element of knowledge in investing.

---

I am sorry for this next part, I was really trying to be more circumspect as I really don't want another fight. Someone using 80,000% returns as proof they are knowledgeable about financial matters is similar to someone claiming the home they built for $20 per square foot makes them a building expert. It is quite possible that someone built a house with lumber that fell off the back of the truck but that hardly means they are an expert in building.

If you get an 80,000% return on a penny stock investment, you gambled and got lucky, but that is not proof of your investment prowess. It is a bit of testament to a healthy risk appetite and sure there is nothing wrong with it at all. However, Kevin, in a now removed section of his post, used that as a testament to his expertise for lumber investing...

Jennifer Hogan, thank you so much, you are right and very well said. The barn wouldn't add much if any to the value of the property. I was using value to justify spending the money on something I desire, the barn. So I'm not selling any lumber, even if the frugal side of my brain is screaming "take the money"! The barn is the reason I bought the stuff in the first place. (cheap, a good majority at 5 cents on the dollar at today's prices)

After reading your comment I started to remembered when I bought my place decades ago which has a large concrete block building on the property, but I never considered it's value. My insurance agent inspected and ran the building through his software and told me it would cost $60,000 to replace it and I was shocked, I only paid $102K for the 5 acres and house. So I'm convinced, forget about added value and go with the desire but I'm still staying frugal on the project, it's in my blood.

About investing, and laugh if you want but I still hold a paper stock certificate for 595 shares of honeywell stock I bought in 1990. I'm I the only one still holding paper? Or is it common.

bry911, a lot of the lumber did fall off a truck, but it going into a barn. Others we're cull lumber and not suitable because of bowing but again going into a barn. The sheet metal came off a couple of hail damaged pole barns with no real damage, but for the third time it's a barn.

I deleted the investment part because it was bragging and for good reason, but you clicked it before the delete and you've became the prime example why.

Universal insurance holdings (UVE) insures homes. The company was in business for years making a small profit with 80 employee's, no debt and a solid business. But the company stock was flat lined because there was no growth. At the time many of the big insurance companies were pulling out of the market because of hurricanes, and the insiders were buying millions of shares. This is why I bought the stock. with the reasoning other companies would pick up the business, meaning growth and therefore a rise in stock price, and I was right.

I'm very knowledgeable of the stock market and this is just ONE example of my "investment prowess" which I elected a minute later to delete. Thanks buddy, and investing in mutual and index funds doesn't give you expertise or knowledge of the stock market. And in July 2007 you were sitting long in your mutual funds, and I was sitting 100% in inverse ETF index funds and went long in 09 at 770 on the S&P500. This was the past, now for the present.

You told that old man to jump into the market and out of a money markets at such a late date, and when the last fool buys in the prior fools sell. You may have decimated his life saving going forward because you shouldn't give advice and have NO expertise on the subject. As of March 2021 I'm 100% in a money market funds, the same thing you told the guy to get out of. I got out of UVE early because greed will kill you and I'd rather bank $125K.

Not much action going forward on the indexes is there Bry911. Markets are consolidating and bouncing up and down but effectively flat lined for a breakout or break down, and a sign of emotional indecision and comparable to my little wood dilemma . The trend is up but it's been up for years but doesn't support PE value and only the federal reserve support it right now. The direction will be determined with a little rational insight as I was by Jennifer, which in the stock market is a fairy tale land of human emotion. So tell me should I get back in and let greed eat my shorts or stay in the money market funds and be happy for what I have?

And after 30 years the Honeywell stock will be sold this month. It's a big one coming but not about to discuss why and start a big fight here, and I'm not giving stock market advice like bry911 thinks he has the know how to do. It's just my opinion.

B.S. Bry911. I can request a certificate from my broker for $75 but then they lose control and is into the hands of the transfer agent. Other then that everything is recorded electronically and no certificate is issued I need to send the certificate to the transfer agent listed on the certificate to verity it's good after getting a medallion signature guarantee stamp to verify the signature real. Again you don't know what your talking about and should leave advice to those who've actually done it. I haven't did it yet but know more than you, and didn't you say you've always invested in mutual funds? Last I checked you don't get certificates for mutual funds, another exaggeration of one's knowledge? If someone has actually sold or redeemed a paper certificate I'd love to here the process from someone who actually did it.

You don't get redeemed certificates back, they're cancelled by the transfer agent with a big red stamp and were stored but may now be destroyed from what I know. Those with certificates are of companies which usually went belly up or purchased as novelty items.

I see you edited your comment to remove some misinformation.

And another edit I see. you need to learn if you start throwing stones one may come back and hit you in the head. Remember these statements Bry911? "My biggest investment only had ten year growth of 480% and I am quite thrilled with that return." and "I generally just walk away when people start telling me how great they are at analyzing equity investments." Do you see the Irony here?

The stock market is a scam, and evolves around making money by taking other's money. The pyramid is exposed with every bear market drop but we have a short retention span and fall for it over and over. Your EMH is also a lie. Stock price reflect NO information but only basic human emotion which becomes irrational. It just means an owner of the stock found a bigger fool then him to pay more for it, and when the last fool buys in the pyramid collapses. I should charge or what I'm tell you.

This has gotten ridiculous again!

First, you may sell the wood. Then, you will only sell it if you can get full retail. Next, you need it for a barn....

All I did was point out if you are interested in selling the OSB (SOMETHING YOU SAID YOU WERE INTERESTED IN) then the value of the finished barn is not relevant. This is not the only OSB on the planet you can use to build your barn.

According to your posts, you will sell the OSB at $6,500 because that is retail, but will not sell the OSB at $5,000 because that is less than a $60,000 barn... I don't know what kind of bass ackwards logic that is but I do think I see a problem with it.

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So at first you are an awe shucks investor still not hip to this electronic era, then you are bragging about being invested in derivative hedges that certainly don't issue paper certificates. Which is it?

Please don't answer that!

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Here is my advice in a nutshell...

When making financial decisions don't let irrelevant information creep in. Many people are guilty of this and it is a killer.

Don't buy stuff only because it is on sale. First, because you end up with lots of money tied up into stuff you haven't gotten around to using yet. Next, because you might find expensive ways to use it. Many kitchens have been remodeled around a great deal on appliances.

Finally, for most people the best investment strategy is a consistent life-long commitment to average risk appropriate returns.

I didn't mean for this to be controversial but here we are.

You only get on shot in life Bry911 and can't edit out your mistakes, lies or failures like you do here. Your advice is as worthless as your edited posts so stop trying to be an autocrat. Good day MR. cry911.

@kevin9408 - Some people don't know what they don't know.

@bry911 - 29% of people who are retired or are of retirement age have zero retirement savings. 49% of households with a head of household over 55 have zero retirement savings.

37.6% of households headed by people age 65 to 74 have a mortgage on their primary residence as did 27.7% of those 75 and older.

Someone who invested in Money Market Mutual Funds may not be in as good of a place as they could have been, but they are way ahead of so many others I can't view this as a tragedy.

I am 60. My best friend didn't live long enough to retire. Another close friend retired early to care for her son who died from cancer. Another retired early when she was diagnosed with an aggressive form of Parkinson's and another was forced to retired after a heart attack where the ER ignored her for 45 minutes. She died in the waiting room and had to be revived. She lost oxygen to the brain and it damaged her short term memory. I was diagnosed with Cancer at age 55. Found out the cancer treatment weakened my bones a year later, so I break easily. At 57 I had a major heart attack (99% block in the widow maker).

No one plans for these things - they just happen. If you live long enough to retire at retirement age you are lucky. If your not among the 18% of deaths by suicide committed by seniors each year you are lucky. If you managed to enjoy life along the way you have won. No one leaves here alive.

@Jennifer Hogan - That is a fallacy relative privation. Just because he is better off than some people doesn't lessen his problem. When people work their whole lives planning to retire and then learn they can't do the things they wanted to in retirement because they misunderstood something, that is a tragedy.

The problem with relative privation is that you can rationalize any action or outcome just by finding a worse one.

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I wouldn't want to be dismissive of the tragedies you have suffered by finding someone who has suffered more.

@Jennifer Hogan In your first post I just felt something special about you and cracked a smile as I read on with a peaceful calm feeling. Your second post gave pause with wonder, and the third just made me want to cry with overwhelming compassion. I'm so sorry, and understand now. I lost two brothers 55 & 61, a special sister in law 65, a best friend 61, a step son 35 and another son had a heart attack at 35 requiring two stents, all in a 5 year time span.

Today you've given me some well placed wisdom and I'll always have a special memory of this encounter. I sincerely thank you, and wish you days filled with joy no matter how big or small.

@kevin9408 - I have been faced with tragedy, but I was also blessed with wonderful friends and a big, loving family. I talk to my sisters almost every day. I see or talk to my friends almost every day. I have stayed friends with a few people for more than 50 years, a few more for more than 40 years. We weren't allowed to not talk to each other or hold grudges as kids. My mother simply wouldn't put up with those types of behaviors.

I think back and remember how incredibly dumb my mother was when I was 16. She didn't know anything. I am still amazed at how much she learned by the time I was 26. In 10 years she learned the answers to all of life's questions.

I specifically remember those teenage tragic moments, when you had a bad day in school and came home, threw your books down, ran to your bedroom and threw yourself onto your bed and cried. My mom would let us go for about 15 minutes. Then she would knock on our door, come in and say "These are the little hurts in life that prepare you for the big ones yet to come. Dry your eyes. There is work to be done." She set us to task and we soon forgot our woes.

I was about 19 when the 6 year old granddaughter of the lady who babysat me as a child was killed in a buggy accident. I knew the little girl and was devastated. Bena (her grandmother), came in and reached out and held me in her arms for a few minutes. Then she took me by the shoulders, got out her handkerchief, wiped the tears from my cheeks and told me "God needed her more by his side than we needed her here." She took my by the hand and led me to the kitchen table. She pulled out a couple of bowls and a large bag of green beans, handed me a paring knife and I knew it was time to pull myself together and clean green beans.

At that age I didn't understand their strength. But these women had gone through things in their life that I was just beginning to experience. They didn't have the luxury of falling apart. They had children and grandchildren and a community that needed them.

You and I have both experienced all that life has to offer, both the good and the bad, but we were both blessed with having wonderful people in our lives. Losing them is hard, but not ever having these relationships would have been so much worse.

I don't know how long it has been since you suffered your losses, and it does take time for our hearts to heal, but I can tell you that when I think about my parents and my best friend I no longer feel sad. I think of them and I smile as I remember the love we shared and the fun we had. I am grateful that they were a part of my life.

I appreciate your kind words and thoughts and wish you days filled with joy as well.

Jennifer I had horses too, well my kids did!! Best years of my life

JR, I drove by some houses in the process of being built but work had stopped. and thought of you. Some framing up, banded floor trusses sitting all over the place and a few had some sub flooring in. The wood was turning gray from weathering in the rain for months and on it's way to become firewood.

You may not want to fight to get that house built if the wood has or may sit around for months.

@JR - Any updates?

Given how long this has drawn out, I assume your expanded team of attorneys have been diligently working on a Supreme Court case against this builder.

I guess JR has disappeared for good, with no resolution to this drama.

Like sand through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives...

😂😂😂😂

I was so looking forward to hearing how this drama played out. Where is JR?

He left a long time ago. He’s busy building a house…..

Hello everyone,

Sorry for the late update. I’ve been very busy with school, work and luckily remodeling our existing home. We decided to stay where we are at and remodel it to our liking. With the cost of a new home it just makes sense to stay here. Anyways……

The state attorney general was received our complaint and are working on it. A submitted my story to a large local news station and they are interested in covering it. The builder and their lawyer were made aware if they didn’t return my money they would be having the local station at their doorsteps. They didn’t care. They are still adamant on signing the NDA. I’m currently going to just wait it out and see if they list the property. If they list the property I will have to file suit and a lis pendens or see if they just return my money immediately before the transaction.

The state attorney general received our complaint.

Submitted my story to a large local news station.

If they list the property I will have to file suit and a lis pendens or see if they just return my money immediately before the transaction.

All of this time/effort/energy, just so you can maintain your ability to drag the builder through the mud? Even though the builder is a completely irrelevant part of your life?

Interesting hill to die on. Wouldn't you and your family be better served if you directed your efforts to something more fruitful and relevant?

Thank you for your insightful comment. If you forgot, they demanded extra agreements that were never ever part of the original contract. Why would I offer them to sign an NDA for free (which isn’t required to sign per our contract) that has value….for them. Not happening.

I offered to sign the NDA for a price or simply remove the NDA and I’ll sign. They didn’t budge. I’m not desperate for my money, I know it’s going back to me regardless per the contract. I’m not worried about that.

"Wouldn't you and your family be better served if you directed your efforts to something more fruitful and relevant?" Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! JR's thread was fruitful offering entertainment to a lot of people, and if I'm not mistaken a small outlet to vent and release some stress in such a stressful life event. What's interesting is the high hill you crawled up on.

Why would I offer them to sign an NDA for free (which isn’t required to sign per our contract) that has value….for them. Not happening.

Maybe to get on with your life??

How many total hours have you spent on this issue...going back/forth with the builder for several months, consulting multiple attorneys, submitting attorney general complaints, sending your "story" to news stations, ect?

How many hours have the multiple attorneys you've engaged with spent on this?

You say that signing an NDA "has value" for them.

But it should also have value for you...unless you place ZERO value on your time.

The only thing you gain by letting this drag on is the ability to complain about the builder's sloppy tape job on the ZIP wall system.

….and the giant foundation crack and 6in hole in the basement cement wall but that’s a minor issue :)

But it is not your house. You aren't buying it. Why do you care?

Just get your money back and move on with your life.

How much more of your time/effort are you willing to spend on this?

What is the point? Just so you can vent on the internet about sloppy tape jobs and concrete cracks/holes?

As long as it takes :)

thank you again for being so very thoughtful and insightful.

JR, any chance the contractor has the initials BB? I understand why you are so invested, but for the life of me, I am mystified why Booty is so concerned.

Thanks for starting this thread. It has been a very interesting read, and I hope it all works out for you

Hahaha I’m starting to think so ?!! We will see how this works out. For better or worse.

You know, honestly, I think it's kinda cool that someone is willing (and able) to stand on principle here.

There have been countless times where posters are advised to just walk away from a subpar (or really really poor) build, and I always think, "Yeah, well, that's all well and good for the OP, but what about the poor unsuspecting soul who ends up in that house?!?"

So, thank you, JR. :-)

Thank you ! Very kind words !

I don't have too many concerns for me, I am heading fast to retirement age, but I do worry about the young people I know and love. Our country is becoming more and more split between the haves and the have nots.

The have nots don't have the power or resources to stand up.

Those with the power and resources to stand up often don't bother. It isn't personally beneficial to them.

JR is the rare breed who is willing and able to stand up for what is right. He is essentially the hope of our future. I wish there were more like him and fewer booty bums.

Thank you Jennifer for the kind words of wisdom. It’s amazing how some few people in this world think it’s ok to just get stepped on and not stand up for what is right. I may not have updates anytime soon as things may move slow.

I commend JR for standing up for his principles. It may not be the easy road but it is definitely the right road.

I find it interesting in this era of keyboard Karens who feel empowered to post on social media and slam businesses about trivial issues. Yet when something as monumental as structural construction issues arise, it isn't worth the effort to pursue. So it is OK to complain over trivial issues because that takes no effort but let major issues slide because it takes too much effort?