Nothing occurs to me at the moment, bart, but dang, your garden sounds a lot like mine.

You couldn't just cultivate a lot of agreeable weeds that would tend to dominate the flora? Saponaria officinalis, sweet violets, pepper thyme (T. longicaulis)--this will form a mat; I don't know how weed-proof it is. There are some attractive bedstraws, NOT including the odious Galium aperina. I refuse to recommend ivy. Some attractive, tallish, clumping perennial grasses: there are native kinds. Iris orientale will form tall clumps, and bulb-devouring animals don't bother it. Prostrate rosemary? Catmint? Japanese iris, plain or :variegated? Mine grows in half sun; I don't know how it would do in full sun.

In shadier areas, if you have any such, Ruscus hypoglossum is low-growing and pretty dense; there are the perennial, thick clumps of garden hellebores (H. orientalis). If you know anybody who grows some of these, very likely they have babies.

Good luck. Weeds are a pain.

Wow, a garden 20 minutes from your house! That sounds like a difficult situation!

I don't think I'm familiar enough with Tuscany to make a recommendation other than perhaps prostrate rosemary or creeping thyme, both of which are quite drought tolerant and form dense mats (especially the creeping thyme).

I think if you can research what is native in your area, that type of plant will have the greatest chance of success in terms of surviving without a lot of extra care.

Bart, what is your equivalent hardiness zone? Z8, at least, I would think? I know you saw the recommendation for Star Jasmine as a ground cover on Melissa's fragrance thread. The warmer your winters, the more suggestions we can make.

I have a garden that is partially woodland, myself, and I COMPLETELY understand where you're coming from, lol.

I'm lucky that my woodland is in my backyard. But I STILL need ground covers. Whatever you do, don't get English ivy started. I'm battling it right now, and I think I'm going to need an atomic bomb to get rid of it. Sigh.

Right now, my best ground eating, evergreen weed preventer is thousands of hellebores. I bred them for several years, and they pretty much take over any area where I start them. Soooo easy from seed. Some people would consider them a nuisance, but they're perfect for our purpose. All you need to do is collect the seed pods just before they open, place them in a paper bag, give it a vigorous shake daily, and the seeds will collect in the bottom. Sow the seed in situ when fresh. They'll sprout the next Fall or Spring, and that's all.

English Ivy ie Hedera helix is native in Italy and is not an invasive species there. There’s a subspecies poetarum which has orange berries.

Bart, THANK YOU for this thread that is of great value to all of us. No matter what kind of rose season I have, the weeds are always abundant.

I've seen photos of feverfew (or is it chamomile) grown around the base of roses and loved the look.

I'm in a rural area surrounded by open fields and meadows of weeds. The seeds blow in all season. I can't wait to hear some good advice and put it into practice.

Photo from google, but I think it originally came from Garden Web. If you know who this photo belongs to, please let me know so I can credit them. I think it's lovely.

Ajuga is evergreen in 6a, although it does get a somewhat tattered looking on a steep slope next to my driveway covered in the snow bank. But it bounces back in spring with a thick carpet of beautiful purple flowers and then a solid mat of really lush vegetation. It can be a little aggressive though.

Early last summer, planted prior fall.

This spring after bad drought last summer. It will fill in solid again by June.

I have a sloping bed that is covered with veronica pedicularis. Evergreen, fabulous blue bloom in Mid -April to late May here. It seems to do very well to prevent random weeds (perhaps because I had mulched well with newspaper and wood chips before it was put in), but it does allow perennials such as bulbs and iris (and others) to come up through . I have several roses in that bed also that cohabit happily with it. You would have to do some research to determine if it would be good in your conditions.

Like bart bart I garden in Italy. English ivy is native here, so not invasive in the technical sense, but I've spent a lot of time pulling it, and I keep a sharp eye out for it to keep it from getting re-established. (I do have one small patch of yellow-variegated ivy close to the house.) It tears down trees with its weight and smothers the ground, not good if you want anything else but ivy. Well, bart bart does want a ground cover, but in her situation I'd just go with all the interesting plants that grow in Italian meadows, i.e., weeds, plus various subshrubs and possibly low-growing shrubs. Ivy is just too dank and heavy to look right, though it's a handsome plant under the right circumstances.

By the way, bart, exactly what weeds are your worst offenders? A lot of the spring annuals and small perennials are attractive plants--I just cleaned out a couple of beds to plant a few tomatoes and herbs, but couldn't bear to eliminate the poppies and a pair of mulleins. Looking around the place, I was admiring some bedstraws, veronicas, tall buttercups, a pretty pink annual geranium, and the extremely handsome field sage, currently in bloom. It does all get out of hand and is a struggle to keep in order, and there are any number of weeds I hate the sight of--also right now I'm sick of the chickweed that's going to seed--but there's a great deal of beauty this time of year as well.

Hi Bart! Question, don't ground cover masses increase the water requirements of the garden? Just asking... Can you obtain Myoporum parvifolium 'Pink'? It's finer and more dwarf than other forms. I know it survives very high heat, very low water and even dips into the "teens" of short duration, from experience. The landscraping company which owned a nursery I managed used to joke that when they took over properties in which Myoporum struggled, they would turn off the water for a month and it exploded. I planted it in a number of my own gardening clients' gardens where evergreen, dense, weed suppressing mats were desired. One had ornamental strawberry the builder planted and it was NOT suitable for the conditions. Instead of paying to have it removed and replaced, I simply sprigged the Myoporum into the holes the strawberry didn't like and within two years there was no more strawberry!

Would creeping rosemary provide you any benefit? It's used everywhere here. Some refer to it as "poor man's ceanothus" as when happy, it nearly resembles the lower growing ceanothus (at a distance, when you squint...). Those are the two which immediately come to mind. Good luck!

I have a few in my garden. The 1st one can take over a piece of land in no time. I can't remember the name right now, but I think you know the name when you see the pic. The 2nd one is new to me at our new property, it's called Drooping Star of Bethlehem. Thanks to Steve, he pointed out the name. I was going to kill it, but I thought it could make a nice ground cover. the 2nd one looks like normal grass or chive when it's not in bloom.

Here in cool, coastal WA my groundcover of choice is lamium(spotted dead nettle).It is evergreen here but dormant. I grow both the white & the lilac-pink kind. I seldom water it even in our dry but cool summers.It segues from shade to sun (our version of sun)and the only thing I do is cut it back when ratty looking.

I meant to say it's dormant in our short winter but still in leaf.

Thank you all so much-this gives me plenty mto think about.@smithdale I think I do have a clump of wild lamium that somehow volunteered and is doing a great job in one corner,so that's one to try transplanting. @ summers sadly, I don't recognize the plant in your first photo-can anyone help with naming it, please? @ roseseek Kim, the weeds are already competing with the roses,so I want to replace the ugly ones with cuties, lol. I never heard of Myoporum parvifolium-that is something to look into, though I wonder if it would be hardy. I do have some prostrate rosemary-can you divide it to get new plants? because one of the issues here is limiting the cost of "carpeting" very large areas quickly. Prostrate rosemary is not expensive, at about 3.50 per plant, but I have to be careful about money-how much area could I cover, and how quickly, with only 10 plants, for example? Something to consider carefully before acting.

@melissa I love ivy, but wouldn't want it as a groundcover, since it would need constant vigilance to keep it in it's place. Sad to say, I don't know the name of most of my worst enemy weeds; this year I'm taking a "zero tolerance" approach to bindweed (I hate that sh*t-so sneaky!) Another is Canadian thistle, though fortunatley that's in a pretty limited area. I have dandelions, of course, and stinking hellebores that are beginning to sprout more and more as I improve my soil, however, though I do like them, they get too big; I want something more carpet-like. You mention Japanese iris, but I thought that that neede wet conditions? I do want to try catmint eventually, but I'll have to look up ruscus hypoglossum-never heard of it. @ John-I have to look up several of the plants you mention. I did think of pachysandra, but it's good to know that it's not uber-fast. Again, something to consider with care. I LOVE ajuga,and definitely plan to try that,first in somewhat shadier spots however. It does grow wild here, but only in small, rare clumps,but this fact does encourage me to try it-if it can survive as a wild plant, chances are that with minimal coddling when it's young it will adapt to my garden. So that seems like a good bet. As for my zone, I guess it's 8 or 9; since my garden is at about 600 meters above sea level,it does get colder up there than it does here in town, so it's hard to say. In any case, the main problem remains the heat and drought of summer... @raee OMG!!! that veronica pendularis is splendid! I do have wild veronicas in areas where I've done a reasonale job in soil improvement, so that might work-I sure hope it will. Must research... @Gregg-great to know that ajuge can handle drought; looks like a winner. @ flowers and floral-thank you for your comments!@ slumgullion I love the look of creeping thyme,and would love to use it in my garden paths. My only worry is would it tolerate my heavy clay soil? perhaps I should amend with sand?

RE the veronica - here it tolerated long dry spells (only 2-3 shallow rains over 6-8 weeks) the past two summers without being watered (although I did give water to the bases of the roses).

Bart, The one in my last post is called "Vinca Vine 'Variegata'"

https://www.gardencrossings.com/product/vinca-vine-variegata-vinca-vine/

And I also have this groundcover at my current place. I think it's Creeping Myrtle Periwinkle Vinca

Bart, I have creeping thyme growing in heavy clay-ish soil (but in an area with good drainage), it does fine, I think it probably helps with the drought tolerance.

Some comments on the comments: bart, prostrate rosemary will spread widely, especially where adapted, but grows readily from cuttings--I say this as a person who is not particularly brilliant at propagation. I imagine it would benefit from having the soil lightened and would grow faster, but it's pretty tolerant. A vastly creeping thyme is the one I mentioned in my first post, T. longicaulis, "timo al pepe". I have this in various spots in the garden and it's a great goer everywhere. One good association is with the prostrate rosemary, the thyme filling in any gaps in the taller rosemary. It, too, probably would like a somewhat lighter soil than clay, but it's a tough plant.

My japanese iris may be a different plant than what you're thinking of....this just occurred to me. Iris japonica grows in part shade, heavy soil, no water, our summer drought probably just like your summer drought. Ajuga/bugleweed grows wild here, in sun or shade, in the dankest, heaviest soil it can find. It likes wettish areas, but lives placidly through any amount of summer drought. I don't know whether it's evergreen: it's a plant I notice mainly when it's in bloom. I have Lamium/spotted deadnettle/yellow emperor, and am trying to get rid of it, as it's VERY invasive, and hard to dig out: you can't just pull it. Of course this might suit you. This can take dense clay.

Various veronicas are native here, I believe annual and reseeding. They're pretty in their season but I'm not sure they're evergreen.

I have to stop here; may have more to add later.

Dianthus is probably evergreen to you. Not as fast spreading as some things but a very consistent mat as it does spread. This is dianthus 'white frost' just about to erupt if you can see all the small purple buds. It looked pretty healthy all winter long in zone 6.

Bart, as I said, your gardening conditions and situation sound very similar to mine. I would love to see pictures of your place, out of simple curiosity, and also to make comparisons. We're further north, but at a lower elevation: 450 meters at the highest point.

Maintenance is ALWAYS an issue. My strategy, if it can be called that, is to leave the garden as meadow interrupted with shrubs--the roses, various hedges and groupings--and with the trees we've been planting and that are growing as the years pass. I'm still hoping that, as the trees take hold, they'll somewhat curb the exurberance of the meadow and allow for plants that like semi-shade and, gasp, shade; however, we're a long, long way from that deep duff of fallen leaves and organic detritus that woodland plants need. Well, the meadow. Currently DH is mowing the paths, running behind the heavy, chugging motor scythe up and down our steep paths. He's eighty-six, and what we'll do when he gets too old to mow, which should be absolutely now, but isn't, I don't know. The meadow is annual and perennial grasses, clovers, vetches, wild peas, geraniums, dandelions (I tend not to want these in the more groomed parts of the garden, but allow them elsewhere), hawkweeds, and chicory, cinquefoil, poppies, English and oxeye daisies, veronicas, sweet violets, wild gladiolus, members of the mustard family (Brassicaceae), members of the parsely family (Apiaceae), buttercups, field sage, bedstraws, and such inconvenient or unwelcome plants as Bermuda grass, bindweed, Galium aperine, nettles in the ditches, and that ubiquitous, infernal annual member of the parsley family (I don't know its name) that makes millions of seeds that stick to your clothes and have to be picked off one by one.

I use a lot of subshrubs, mainly as an intermediate level between the roses and the paths and between roses. Phlomis is a big one for me, as it seems to be able to take anything short of a swamp or deep shade. It's big enough to get its head above the grass and shade it out, is easy to propagate, handsome in every season, and just keeps getting bigger and better with every year. There are a number of species and varieties available, though it gets bigger than what you're talking about, up to 3'-5'. Rosemary is a little more sensitive, suffering during dry chilly polluted winters like some we've had recently. Still, grass and other meadow plants grow everywhere in our garden.

Several years ago I had an epiphany, that the annual grass growing in the garden beds was putting organic matter (roots) in the soil without my having to dig it in. When I realized that, I stopped pulling it. I think--I don't know--that leaving the meadow growth largely undisturbed encourages a more varied growth of annuals and small perennials that offer competition to thugs like bindweed. (Of course, some desirable plants, like poppies, need disturbed soil to sprout.) Plants tend to grow where conditions allow. I have extremely heavy, rather wet, rocky soil in one area of the garden: chicory, quite a handsome plant, grows thickly there, as its taproot can get down in this difficult soil. Again, and like dock, for example, in time the taproot dies and remains as organic matter in the soil. When I can't stand the mess any longer I shear the meadow growth, which is time-consuming, but I don't pull the plants, except for the obnoxious ones. Many of the plants I listed above are attractive. They grow over a long season; many have flowers and provide nectar for pollinating insects. A good meadow is beautiful. Its growth makes a healthier soil and environment. But it does need some maintenance.

Even obnoxious plants have their uses. Nettles, for example, grow thickly in our first ditch. I want the ditch to capture sediment coming down it; plants growing in the ditch help that. I don't try to eliminate nettle in the ditch entirely, just pulling the tops and part of the roots, which I then spread over the grass as amendment. It's a way of transferring nutrients from the ditch to the grass. I even leave the Bermuda grass, which I hate, in the ditch, as there can be no better capturer of sediment. Even Bermuda grass has its uses! The plant composition of an area changes as conditions change, and obnoxious plants tend, I think, to get outcompeted where soil quality is good and the ground is undisturbed. Also, many nasty weeds are sun lovers, and once shrubs get up some size, the shade and root competition discourage them.

About the Ruscus hypoglossum. It's in the same genus as R. aculeatus/"pungitopo"/butcher's broom, a prickly, low-growing, shade-loving shrub native to Italy. R. hypoglossum is an un-spiny, low-growing--about a foot tall--evergreen shrubby perennial, a handsome foliage plant that spreads slowly out by stolons. It likes part shade to deep shade, does fine in clay soil on a slope, and is perfectly drought tolerant. I doubt it's a plant for full sun. I saw it years ago in a garden surrounding a specimen box, was instantly smitten, and kept an eye out for it. I eventually found an overgrown, but sturdy-looking pot of it in the back lot of a local nursery, took it home, divided it and grew it on, and so got a supply of plants for the garden. Specialist nurseries carry it, or you trust to luck and keeping an eye open like I did. I never have enough evergreen in my garden, and this is a good plant. Another plant, similar but taller growing, is Danae racemosa, also called Ruscus racemosus. It gets up to about a meter tall and is a handsome plant, needing conditions similar to those of the Ruscus species. This is another one you find here and there in commerce, easier to locate than the R. hypoglossum.

I hope some of this is useful, and that I haven't wasted your time and mine writing about things you already know or that are irrelevant to your situation. As I said, I'm not acquainted with your garden, which makes it hard to know what might be helpful.

Thanks again, all. Melissa, it sounds to me like you are working on a much larger portion of your property than that which I am doing! My own DH likes weed-whacking, but works full-time and so has not yet been out at the property to whack. He did manage to do a bit last year; I gave up on that long ago. It's SO difficult for me to get the thing to start up; I am no good at all with motors that you have to start up by pulling on a cord.

I don't know the names of plants the way you do, so I'll have to look up some of the weeds you mention...however your meadow sounds rather nice!

I definitely will try creeping thyme,and dianthus-I forgot about them. I love the idea of carpets of flowers.

Another beautiful weed is anthemis (this may be the old name, with a new one courtesy of the botanists), and I forgot deadnettle. Another spreading subshrub is Salvia greggii. This may be too tall for you, as it gets up to two or three feet in height. It's a fine-textured mass of green dotted with, usually, rose pink little blooms, is completely drought proof, but can be damaged in an unusually cold winter, or one that doesn't suit its weather patterns (I didn't think that last winter was drastically cold, but a lot of plants disliked something about it.) Anyway, the sage goes out and out, rooting as it travels. Very easy.

I like the creeping thyme not only for its ease of care (remarkable drought tolerance in my garden) but also because it forms a mat of pink flowers.

Another one I like to let spread is Prunella vulgaris - it's native here and in Europe (and elsewhere), is very drought tolerant, seeds itself around easily, forms a low mat with purple flowers, plus its edible and medicinal.

"He did manage to do a bit last year; I gave up on that long ago. It's SO difficult for me to get the thing to start up; I am no good at all with motors that you have to start up by pulling on a cord."

Do you have greenworks products there? We purchased a greenworks battery operated weed eater last year and I love it. I hated weed eating because of the same reasons you noted - hard to start, loud, gas smell, etc. The battery one has been worth every penny (not cheap). Now my 9 year old son can even do it. I am slowly transitioning all our power tools to battery. once you have the battery, it is interchangeable. The products without the battery are not so $$$$$.

Sounds like a fun property ! can you post any photos?

Don’t know if anyone mentioned St.Johns Wart...spreads .. covers.. great on solidifying hillsides... does not need watering or lots of sun ..stays at about 12-15” high... and can be easily contained from spreading and taking over... as it has shallow spreading root system that can contain it to area you like ...with plastic edging about 6” deep

Does not need water after established..but will takeover if not contained..crowds out weeds and brush

See coverage on hillside over several years from minimal plants installed

Hi Bart:-) Question for you; Do you have trouble with any underground animals that would eat the roots of a tasty ground cover? I’m hoping the answer is no, and that’s not something you have to worry about for your ground cover AND your roses. I’m looking for something similar for my slope, but gophers are a problem here. I also have hot and dry conditions with water restrictions. I’ve had some success with yarrow, erigeron, and as a larger plant, Acacia cognata ‘Cousin Itt’.

John, what fabulous space to garden in! Lisa

@Lisa Adams Off topic: Thanks, Lisa. I subscribe to the theory that there's a "genius of place" to any large garden. If you listen, it will tell you what it wants to be. I'm lucky AND blessed to be able to garden right on the edge of where cool season plants and warm season plants will tolerate the other extreme. I can grow delphiniums (as annuals), and tea roses; tulips and camellias; lilacs and illicium; arctostaphylos and yuccas. I also have a large enough garden that I can "waste" space on single season displays. I won't post it again here, but there's a photo (from a few years ago) of my "daffodil glen" on Melissa's fragrance thread. It shines for about six weeks, then it's just a swathe of shady grass. But it's one soul-satisfying sight while it's at its prime.

OT: Frangrance in your garden

The daffodil glen pic is about 1/4 of the way down the page.

Agree about yarrow (Achillea): it grows wild at my place and is very much at home.

@Lisa Adams: I'm afraid to answer your question, Lisa; don't want to jinx things, LOL! Actually I think that gophers may not exist in Italy; maybe they are only in the USA? I do have voles-cute little buggers,but many seem rather suicidal; often I find them drownded in ollas that I forgot to cover, or in buckets after a rain. I think that cats and foxes visit my garden...

There's plenty of wild yarrow in my garden, too. It's one reason why-for now-I don't seriously consider buying any fancy cultivars; I'm worried that I'd get confused, and wind up weeding out the cultivars and leaving the wild ones...