Well, I just cancelled my order with them. I had wanted to try Gabriel Oak, but I don't love what they are doing, and there is no shortage of other interesting roses that I haven't grown.

For those looking for these off-patent or never-patented roses: Hummingbird Roses in Clare, MI is producing own-root vintage Austin roses at at very reasonable price. This company has re-located to a new location that will allow the production of more roses than was possible at the former site. It may take a season before the inventory levels will be enough to meet current demand, but Mindy is determined to overcome this issue in time.

Some things to remember:

Back when Pickering Roses existed, the owner of Pickering approached David Austin about selling Austin's roses because, for many of us, roses on Dr. Huey rootstock don't do well in acidic soils, and Pickering grafted their roses onto R. multiflora rootstock, which thrives in acidic soil. A good source for Austin's on multiflora emerged from that.

Now DA is deceased. DA roses more recently charged propagators by the bud, whether it took or not, whether the rose sold or not.

DA Roses did have a show garden north of NYC which was pay for entrance. I never did hear what happened to it, but I couldn't find it recently in net searches.

Pickering had a way around the inability to use a well known name. (DA hasn't been the only one trademarking names). If you wanted to buy Altissimo from Pickering (and it looks most excellent with the closely related Fourth of July), you knew to buy it as Sublimely Single from Pickering.

Thank you John. Linda from long ago roses also carries quite a few as does Peter Schneider at Freedom Gardens. Good to keep all of these growers in mind. It might be a good thread to start i e. What nurseries are growing older David Austin's?

Good for you, KS8b. I totally agree with Paul Barden, eff'em. There really ARE plenty of great roses around.Taken as an entire group, IMO ,Austins tend to be highly over-rated, as a consequence of the aggressive marketing practised by the company. Even on these rose forums, many times I see posts from people who explain that they have no experience with roses, but their "go to" response is to start with some Austins,which is really, really sad-especially when the people in question are gardening in areas where all kinds of roses would be happy-including the Teas,Noisettes, and Chinas.These non-commercialized roses are so much better in so many ways, but since they are not publicized like the Austins,a lot of people just don't know about them. Obviously, there are some good Austins out there,and there are some places and people who can and do grow them with outstanding results, but it's a real shame that, in a world where water is becoming ever more scarce and precious, roses bred in rainy, grey England are encouraged onto novice gardeners in hot, dry areas.And that's only the tip of the iceberg...

Hear! Hear!

Hi Vaporvac,

At the recommendation of Aaron Rosarian, I have been in touch with Linda from Long Ago Roses; I may be sending her cuttings of more vintage, off- or never-patented Austin roses later this spring.

Austin hyped Olivia Rose Austin as perhaps their best introduction ever so I requested it at a garden center and grew it long enough to get the measure of it. And did not think it lived up to the depiction at all.

I have it coming this spring - live in Texas. Can you tell me the pros and cons of it? Thanks.....

Petals kind of thin and delicate looking so I don't know about Texas - maybe plant it in some shade. Otherwise the fragrance didn't seem that interesting to me personally. But it did flower readily.

Olivia Rose Austin was a winner here in Central California.( Sunset Zone 14; USDA Zone 9) By the end of its second year, it grew into a dense shrub 5 ft. high x 5 feet across. It was covered in flowers from the top all the way to the bottom. Most all of the Austins do well in our area, even many of the ones that do poorly in other areas.

I'm not as enamored of the English Roses as I once was. In my experience most of the collection, both old and new, are problematic. Not all of them have a strong fragrance or grow well on their own roots. For example, they've yet to introduce a strongly fragrant, pure white rose with enough vigor to grow well on its own roots while also repeating like a modern rose should. The only true red they've got has a weak fragrance. Many also have hideous thorns. A good example is GERTRUDE JEKYLL. Hideously thorny and not as good as its parent COMTE DE CHAMBORD. I can't stand ABRAHAM DARBY because of the thorns. And don't get me started about myrrh. That "fragrance" only smells good in an herb garden. Others have blooms that drop their petals in the blink of an eye or nod the blooms into the mulch so nobody can appreciate them. IMHO only a handful are worth growing. LADY OF SHALOTT for example is impressive in Mid-Atlantic USDA Zone 7a. Better get it while you can.

David Austin achieved things few rose hybridizers could even dream of, but the man is dead. These cut throat business tactics should elicit no loyalty from experienced rosarians. I'm to the point of suggesting sellers start assigning agreed upon new commercial names to the handful of older - and proven - cultivars that are out of patent.

There are lots of available reproduction roses from other sources. My advice, look for Earthkind Roses, classic roses that have proven their worth in your particular region, and those created by Kordes and others like John Clements, Mike Shoup, Paul Barden and Tom Carruth.

Well said Patrick! Also the older roses whose scents cant be duplicated often in today's roses......I just ordered Mirandy and Crimson Glory. Look at Mr. Lincoln, Tiffany, Fragrant Cloud, Double Delight, etc. And I still swoon over Chicago Peace and buy another one every year, Austin has certainly not duplicated that color! No rose is perfect......and though I like Austins, they are not the only show in town. Their marketing is excellent however.

Their marketing is a force to be reckoned with, but I can literally count on one hand the cultivars that I like. I don't know why we get so hung up on a particular "style" of rose. I've learned through living long enough to appreciate different flower forms, colors and textures. For example, the simplicity of single and semi-double roses is beautiful, especially contrasted in a bouquet with fuller flowers like QUIETNESS. BTW, Climbing Crimson Glory is on my short list of must have climbing roses. Tiffany is about as close to perfection as a Hybrid Tea gets. Both are gloriously fragrant.

I too like all kinds of roses - each one has its own beauty and charm. I love the whole range of roses that can be grown in my climate. I couldnt pick one class over another. Austins are lovely and interesting to me and I can grow them pretty well, but what a boring garden it would be without the Scottsville Rose, supposedly the oldest rose in Texas found in Jefferson, fragrant, once bloomer and all the other beautiful old garden roses that are such historical treasures, and all the new and exciting roses coming out that I want to try.
That being said........I can hardly stand it to have to start all over after last week's snow and ice - all the beautiful new growth frozen and who knows how long before roses will start growing again.......Keep telling myself.......spring will not be denied.......

What an absolutely abhorrent company.

I guess some Brits never gave up entirely on the idea of world domination, eh?

I especially LOVE the apologist attitude and excuse made by members. It is appalling, and it is GREED. Excuses do not change that.

I've touched on this before, but I am fairly convinced that with the passing of David Austin Sr. in 2018, David Austin Roses are a doomed entity.

-The can't make deliveries on time

-They got rid of their traditional discount that used to be included in the catalogue

-They're blaming COVID even though it's been a year, and I feel that they have had ample time to prepare. LAST March-June with the initial shutdowns and lock-ins (house arrest, really and no more than today's "Duck and Cover") should have made a bigger impact. Not now. Most other businesses are carrying on as usual but DAR-USA seems to have a Chicken Little organization mentality.

-They treat their stockists with disdain and indifference (and there are multiple reports of this)

-Prices continue creeping up year over year (not outrageous like Heirloom Roses, but definitely getting there; other nurseries for other plants are actively gouging their loyal customers in the name of COVID (Stark Bros for example feature an increase in pricing of around 45% for some of their products such as the primocane raspberry 'Anne' over last year, and many listings dropped))

-Attempts to control the market for selfish gains

-Planned obsolescence for PLANTS which can never actually be obsolete unless they're truly garbage. Maybe DAR is telling us their roses truly are TRASH and that's where they belong

-The 2021 DA Handbook of Roses? It's literally less than 2020's in thickness. It is less in actual content. It's incredibly spammy and filled with useless and annoying boxes and bubbles. It looks like it was designed by a focus group riddled with ADHD. At the current rate of decline, the catalogue could be eliminated within 5 years or less. It could be a single sheet flyer with only one introduction on one side, one on the other, and an overly enthusiastic "Please visit our website for full varietal listings and ordering".

+If every plantsman had the outlook and took the type of action DAR is, we would have NO, NONE, ZERO, NADDA for any plants worthy of some garden somewhere and no history. No romantic connections and connotations, no true link to the past. People's memories are very short.

I love the idea of their roses and I wish to try several because there are bound to be at least a few beyond Chianti that perform well for me, but I probably won't order from DAR-USA ever again moving forward.

In fact, I'm contemplating at this point of cancelling all my orders from them that I have placed for 2021, especially since mine are nowhere near ready to be shipped. (Not my order through Palatine though). I don't need roses or DAR's in particular; I want(ed) them, and that's the difference.

After all, nothing speaks louder than money for to a business regardless of other claims.

Happy gardening and resisting ruthlessness!

Steven

I wouldn't want to be running a labor intensive business right now.

I wouldn't want to be running a labor intensive business right now

Yes: inability to get stock propagated and grown on in time for the current season due to labor related problems caused by the PANDEMIC is in fact why "greedy" Austin roses is not able to meet the demand this year.

Commercial availability of nursery stock from other sources is also being affected, for the same reason. In addition here on the West Coast there has been a recent history of representatives of Eastern concerns touring production operations and buying up entire fields before the plants are even up to size. So that some companies are sold out of their entire inventories of particular items going into the future. As in the 2022 crop is already sold and so on.

And if these poor Texas roses dont make it after last week's polar vortex, bet there will be a bunch of Texans out rose shopping - and I will be one!! And heaven help us, I heard today that March 12-15 we are due another one - 16 degrees and snow. Hope the almanac is wrong or we get a reprieve!

I've never been a big DA fan; neither the roses nor the business...

I feel bad for the small growers and nurseries that will be hurt. But hopefully the shortage of DA roses will encourage the public to try other options....

#Embothrium Syl Arena complained several times years ago when Ashdown was still around and i was in Wasco with him and Paul Zimmerman about Austin Roses inquiring whether Arena was propagating particular cultivars. When he asked how many they were interested in, they responded "ALL of them". He explained he could not sell them the entire supply of the varieties they inquired about because he had committed quantities to other sources and his catalog showed he was offering them for sale. That was of no consequence to them. They wanted EVERYTHING he had and weren't happy when he denied them. The other bad faith customer of the time was Wally World. They had signed a contract with Arena to produce their bare roots, then they shopped around for a better price, which they then took to him and demanded he BEAT. Some companies' demises I wouldn't mourn.

The roses I got from Arena many years ago were spectacular. Is Syl doing anything these days with roses? Beautiful catalog also.

I remember Arena roses - yes, a beautiful catalog and it was sad when Arena Roses were gone, like so many others. Wally is long known for taking plants to sell - if they die from lack of water [which was often the case] they would return the dead plants without paying.

I have no idea what Syl is doing these days. His catalogs were works of art and well worth retaining for reference works. They were part of his demise as he did everything, the photography, separations, selections, all of it as graphic design was his forte. They cost him BIG BUCKS and he handed them out like peanuts. His plants were gorgeous, too. Did you know he maintained fields of virus indexed mother plants of multiflora and Huey for root stock so he could cut all he needed for his crops? He did is best not to cross contaminate varieties with RMV. There were some which showed symptoms but that was because the source material was virused. He budded them all to virus indexed stocks. He experimented like crazy. He had his fields ripped deeply and laser leveled so the flood irrigation should work perfectly. It didn't always work perfectly, as evidenced by dry areas in otherwise muddy fields. He spent thousands inoculating his fields with mycorrhizal fungi to see the difference between treated and untreated fields. He lamented he'd spent that money for nothing, other than to find out it wasn't necessary as there was no observable difference. He's also laugh how people would demand he leave long roots on the bare roots he shipped because it was "better" and how he would pull plants from the fields, cut off all but a few inches of roots and top growth, take them home, plant them and they'd explode. As long as they aren't allowed to try out and the tops and roots are fairly balanced, root and cane length mean very little.

Walmart isn't the only one who never pays for plants. That's been a Home Despot business model for years. I know they had what they called SCAN. No plant was paid for until it went through the register. Not that the money changed hands then, as every plant is guaranteed for a year and if it is refunded, it is credited against the money owed to that grower or supplier. If the plant died due to never being watered or a freeze, it is never paid for. If it sells and comes back as "dead", it's never paid for. I've been told by sales reps for growers who tried the HD route that it could take three and four YEARS to collect what the decided to pay for on a shipment of plants. There wasn't much choice for the growers as so many independent nurseries had gone out of business so they had to sell to the big box outlets if they wanted to sell to anyone.

Thats what I heard - the growers were forced to do business with these stores - dont see how it kept them staying in business, not getting paid for years and I am sure they were cheated, at that. Sad situation. When I see bozo employees standing around in the garden center while plants are dying from lack of water, I point it out to them and try to get them to water. My local Lowe's seems better than most.

Our new Lowe's has the most wonderful "racks of death". They get all sorts of really neat things which don't do well here. Their garden dept. is on the south west corner of the building, surrounded by LOTS of concrete, asphalt and block walls so if there is any warmth, it gets HOT. Add the ever present ocean wind and it's a lose-lose situation for root bound plants which don't stand a good chance here anyway. So, you find wind burned, sun burned, neglected neat stuff at half off as "dead". If only I was in need....

He's also laugh how people would demand he leave long roots on the bare roots he shipped because it was "better" and how he would pull plants from the fields, cut off all but a few inches of roots and top growth, take them home, plant them and they'd explode. As long as they aren't allowed to try out and the tops and roots are fairly balanced, root and cane length mean very little.

Unless and until the mention of a control group being involved is made the lack of one makes this yet another anecdotal account where a conclusion is reached without a solid basis for doing so being present.

Whereas an organized trial including a control group would show whether or not the hard pruned roses were growing the same amount afterward as if they had been pruned less severely.

Also a phenomenon that has been seen in pruning experiments conducted using other kinds of woody plants and where control groups were used is long shoots being produced from hard cut branches. But with the overall increase in volume of plant tops being less than when the pruning is less severe. So even though these tops did come roaring back in response to the treatment they were not as big overall as they would have been if more top had been left in place during the pruning.

Similarly a pruning experiment done by the Royal National Rose Society in Britain some years ago revealed that non selectively pruning bush roses flat across the top in the manner of a hedge - instead of the customary "opening up of the center" and so forth -resulted in heavier flowering.

This was because a larger overall volume of stem tissue was left in place after the buzz cut. So that more energy was present to fuel flower production afterward.

I avoid WM and HD as much as possible. I do find cool, unusual plants at Fred Meyer, so in the spring I often swing through their garden aisles to satisfy my garden cravings....Other than that I go to Diamond Home Improvement (which carries LOTS of unusual varieties in the spring), local nurseries, and online.

Makes me mad as a wet hornet to hear about how these big corporations abuse the little guy! It should be illegal!!

If they had to conduct business like most people, they would buy the plants at the time they were delivered. Then they might take better care of them. Wonder if they do that with their fresh produce or refrigerated products - what doesnt sell and spoils, they dont pay for? They should have to abide by the same rules as everyone else.

It has been stated that HInes Horticulture went out of business because of entering into a supply contract with Home Depot where it was agreed to furnish the plants for what was actually less than it cost to produce them. Hines was something like the oldest independently owned and operated nursery in the US still in operation at the time.

At least one of the two documentaries about Wal Mart that has been shown on television (including one titled Is Wal Mart Good for America?) shows and talks about how the mega retailer has offices with cubicles where supplier representatives are expected to appear and get told what the terms are going to be. Like it was a tax audit or something.

Here in later years I have observed supplier employees stocking and tending plant displays at Home Depot and Lowe's.

A woman I went to high school with, some time later worked with at an independent garden center (in different departments) and eventually encountered at a Fred Meyer informed me at that much later time in our lives that she was the Fred Meyer garden center plant buyer for pretty much all of the western US store locations. So unless she has retired by now (we are in our 60s) the plant mix slumgullion has been encountering at Fred Meyer has probably all been getting chosen and ordered by my schoolmate of 48 years ago.

That is so cool to know!! LOL I hope she keeps at it, I like what she brings in!

....Not that Fred Meyer (aka Kroger) is free of abusive practices either. Sigh. We need national legislation to keep things fair, but it's been deregulation-at-any-cost for decades now. Hopefully this is changing. I'm sick of watching the consequences: the rich get richer and the rest of us get screwed.

Otto&Sons here in California sent out this email yesterday.

Wow! Very costly. Don't know if I could do that.

I would not pay 60 dollars for a rose.

I will not either. That's crazy.

Not when DA offers it for $30.

Maybe Otto and Sons paid Austin nearly 30 dollars themselves, hence the 60 dollars they are asking. This kind of sequence does happen a percentage of the time in the nursery business, that is one where growers charge retailers what amounts to a retail price so that the final purchaser ends up paying the equivalent of double retail.

I *have* paid (almost) $60 for a rose, but it sure wasn't a DA, lol. It was for the very rare, unicorn-of-the-rose-world, almost unattainable spinosissima hybrid 'Prairie Peace'. A great deal of the cost was shipping, too, since it was a huge 3' rooted sucker. It was worth every dollar.

Anyone else can keep their $60 roses.

In SoCal most nursery outlets price their mature 5 gallon potted roses at about $40 so $60 is probably the DA markup.

I'd pay $60 for "William III" spin.

I think the most I've paid is $45/plant for custom propagation from Freedom Gardens (5 plants propagated to order and being shipped to several different locations).

But these are memorial roses commemorating my MIL so definitely worth it. I'm extremely pleased that Freedom Gardens was available providing this service! (Of course, I'm assuming they come through with the propagated plants 2 years from now...but I have every expectation that they will...)

I would of course pay it for a rare rose, that I really wanted, with good size, but everything else...Also we have to think. We never know tor sure who will do well in any given area, and us zone pushers as well.

In the past, I've paid way more than that for plants but not roses lol.. I wouldn't pay it nowdays.

With Covid and the shut downs etc came a huge movement to become more self sustainable. The housing market has gone berzerk and more people are moving out of crowded city apartments and into homes. Many are starting their first gardens. There is also a HUGE homesteading movement in this coutry. Back to basics and farming on a small scale. So many people while exploring vegetable gardening, have also discovered a new love for flowers and America's best known and probably favorite flowers are roses!

This is why seed companies and other plant companies can't keep up with the demand.

We've been doing some building projects around the farm and have noticed the prices of lumber have gone crazy. Every few weeks 2x4x8's and plywood increase. I used to find cheaper plywood here (pre covid) for about $13..that same plywood today is $28. Houses are being built like crazy in our area and across the US causing wood prices to soar.

Why did David Austin limit small nurseries this year from selling their roses? This article explains it. Probably due to pandemic... they no longer have enough roses to sell...Pray their business grows again...improves...

Kitty they are limiting these businesses ability to propagate their roses -- they don't need stock to license other people to propagate plants.

. Yes. They already have the mother plants to propagate own root roses.

The article does seem more than a little self-serving. I wouldn't put it past DA to demand YOU provide them with all of your bud wood for THEM to produce their roses. They have demanded sources sell them 100% of their stock previously, so why not? Do the current contracts prohibit you from growing your own stock plants of the licensed varieties, forcing you to purchase the buds from Austin annually? That would be terribly inefficient for most, but it would give them the ability to absolutely police their royalties.

Not good!

Another article says in UK David Austin was closed due to pandemic ....now reopening...

Each nursery every year buys occasionally new stock to propagate from DA. Although, the nurseries also propagate the old stock yearly too. I can’t say how they’d have to change their contracts to continue propagating old stock only...I am not sure how they could continue forward w/this pandemic dent in DA and their wholesale nurseries businesses.

The pandemic is taking its toll. We pray for the day we all recover!

Well, we are helping the recovery... by buying lots of new roses from all over and DA.. Putting $$$$ back in circulation! Woohoo! How many of us have bought 3-6-10-50 new roses for this spring! Go for it!!!!!!