What the heck indeed! This changes my opinion of David Austin.

Is there any more info on this or proof?

I can only tell you that I have read the entire letter from David Austin sent to the small businesses. They have decided to not give liscenses to any small business anymore. . I promise you it is true. Cannot reveal my source, but it is official.

Just saw this on Facebook: From a grower, not from me.

After being a licensed grower of David Austin roses for a n of years and promoting their roses that we grow on fortuniana rootstock, ealways paying my royalties on time and always giving them the benefits of doubt, I was informed today that they will no longer let me grow their roses, they are no longer letting small growers have licenses to grow their roses. It is just one more nail in the coffin of a small independent grower. I am extremely angry and shocked. I was always taught take care of the small person and you will be taken care of.

Gee. I was hoping this was just some misunderstanding with DA not distributing roses to any independent growers this year due to Covid. I wonder if its related.

That’s absurd - they are shooting themselves in the foot! Well, at least now that can’t dictate what off patent varieties these small growers can and cannot propagate and sell (Evelyn, etc).

Disappointing, but not surprising. David Austin has long been heavy handed in protecting their profits, for example by forbidding use of trademark names long after the patent expired. I would think these growers can still sell the patent-expired Austins (eg Ausaucer) , just not named as their trademarked name (Evelyn).

Hope you are right about the trademark names, but the impression I got was not hopeful.

I see this is a good thing, i prefer the discontinued/out of patent varities to the newer ones (like st.cecilia or the prince) . So at least now the nurseries can propagate whatever they want as long as it's out of patent. Hopefully this'll keep those old varieties alive.

Just read on the Antique rose forum that they also notified ROSES UNLIMITED that they are removing their liscense also. I guess they want to be the only one to sell their roses. So unfair to the little guy who has so much invested. I am guessing that Heirloom roses got a notification also.

The Rosarium had to order a much smaller supply of new Austins from another wholesaler at inflated prices ($59 retail) and Northland will not have Austins this year.

Update - All Austins have been pulled from the Rosarium's online catalog. I don't know what wholesaler they planned to use, but what becomes of all those plants? Will they just trash them?

I prefer Austins because they grow exceptionally well in this climate. Meilland roses do pretty well, but Kordes are a gamble. I agree that the older Austin varieties are just as desirable as the new offerings, and buying those propagated by smaller growers will benefit the smaller nurseries.

Such a pity that greed will be associated with the Austin brand.

I'm surprised they still have not released a rose in memory of David Austin.

Flowers hit on one of my main concerns for the nurseries...they’ve been raising and building Austin inventory for some time, that product is in the pipeline for sale at least this year and next. Seems they should be at least given a grace period to sell what they’ve raised while under license.

I’m glad Austins mostly suck in my climate, so I won’t have the dilemma of wanting their stuff while abhorring their greed. (Austin even helped sponsor this huge public garden in my area where most of theit roses grow embarrassingly bad).

Here’s Mill on the Floss growing in Austin trial grounds near Dallas during peak spring flush:

Nope, I don’t need this big thorny new weed. I'll stick with Aussaucer and Auscot ;-)

Well this sucks. I love my Austins from K&M, but once they are out of commerce, these small growers can do what they like. Maybe I can get another Prince on Fortuniana now.

So what happens to all of the roses that these small nurseries have either rooted or grafted.... is David Austin purchasing them back or do they expect the small nurseries to through them away... are they allowing these nurseries to sell their current inventory.... This REALLY ticks me off.... I can understand if they want to keep future sells to themselves... though I think that is a bad business decision.... but I think it is TOTALLY wrong to hurt the companies that have supported them for years.... I have my own computer company. I was a reseller for a large computer manufacturer that did not sell direct (this was years ago). I had a large county order .... I went to the manufacturer about what they could do in delivery terms.... I did the leg work... set up the demos.... and then the company sold them directly ... Pissed me off.... I never sold another computer of that brand again.... at the end of the year the company wanted to know why I was making sales... I said Oh I am making sell.s. In fact I doubled my sells but I am using your competitors brand.,,,

I hope these nurseries can find DA english replacements that are just as fragrant.... Good luck to the nurseries.

Good thing David Austin roses don't grow well for me in central FL . I have s/p a lot !

I only have 2 left which are thriving : Sharifa Asma & Munstead Woods .

Does anyone know if already paid for orders will be fulfilled this year?

I ordered 5 Austins from Roses Unlimited because they offer own root stock. At least two of those are recent introductions, The Ancient Mariner and Roald Dahl. I can’t get the Ancient Mariner as an own root from DA, so I’d be stuck with their grated rose, ugh, and I am not a fan of grafted roses for my own garden.

This is really fairly disappointing, especially since DA US has been pretty much a mess all season because of Covid and now the awful situation in TX.

I posted this thread to Facebook and in a comment was informed that Heirloom is still licensed to carry DA. So I guess some growers will keep their licenses.

Now that I think about it, I bet this is to compensate for the losses they will have with Brexit. I guess they can no longer ship to Europe? Some people in our FB Rose groups have been looking to source DAs in Europe so I’m sure they’ll be losing quite a lot of money from the loss of the EU market. Guess they’re trying to make it up elsewhere?

Probably because of restrictions in UK.

Brexit causing businesses terrible problems here. Already can’t trade with EU. Get Boris and his cronies out.

They can still grow the out of patent ones (those over 20 years old)

I asked Pat at Roses Unlimited about availability of several Austins and she said they're available and they have a good inventory so I'm sure they can sell the plants they currently have.

That is good to know eramus_gw.... it would NOT be right for someone to spend the time and money to produce plants only to have someone from keeping them from being sold.... There is a lot that goes into producing the plants and getting them ready for sale.

From what I heard, the lady who is the so-called marketing manager for Heirloom is telling people on Facebook that they are still licensed to sell DAs, altho they will be limited to only the patented and newer ones. She also supposedly "threatened" someone when they suggested propagating the out of patent ones! Not sure what that means. But apparently DA does not want any of their old non-patented ones propagated by anyone. I don't see how they can enforce that!! I say too bad! I have about 52 DAs that are no longer patented. I will be more than happy to root them or send cuttings to anyone who wants them!! I just potted up a bunch of CYMBALINE stems yesterday. Will see how quickly they root....

DA cannot prevent people from propagating or selling their out-of-patent roses. A plant patent lasts for 20 yers, then anyone can propagate it. I also never understood why people like Palatine had to use the code names for their out-of-patent roses, unless DA has some weird copyright thing on the names, that no other rose breeder has!

@susan9santabarbara DA trademarked the names that you normally see. That is the reason PalatineRoses has to use a code name of a rose (ex: AUSlight) instead its common name (ex: Claire Rose). With HMF, matching a rose‘s code name to its common name is a small inconvenience to have access to a hard to find DA rose. Helen

It could be brexit, it could be that many of their older roses don’t have the disease resistance that they’re working towards in the future and the reviews (The Right Roses) seem to rate DA’s as a bad buy. It could be that they’re coming out with a disease resistant improved Munstead Wood and if the original is off the market a few years before introduction to a new breed people may not compare them. Maybe they want a reputation for disease resistant roses and need to purge to get there. It wasn’t that long ago that I saw a posting on Houzz making fun of DA roses, I’m sure a man who dedicated his time, life and passion to developing the roses we hate to see discontinued surely deserved better.

I just cancelled my order with them for this year.

Nola, you make some good points. We don't know all their reasons. I do think highly of their roses and don't see how anyone could dedicate their life to breeding that many beautiful ones if they don't love roses. I also have read things about David Austin the man that I like .

I am a pro business person. I think they have a right to do what is profitable as long as they're ethical. I think they had the right from the start to never allow anyone else to sell their patented plants. But that is not what they did. They farmed it out, got the licensees , and i do think it's a hardship on the licensees to revoke it.

I think about a high end clothing designer. A lot of times you can't buy their creations any old place...you have to go to the source. They don't want their stuff mass produced. They have that right. If they farmed it out and got into a contract with manufacturers and then rescinded the contract, that would be another matter.

People at DA roses that I have had contact with were pleasant and considerate. I do think that breeders aught to be graceful about letting go of the right to propagate unpatented ones because that's how the law works.

I really liked Erasmus's comments... spot on. They don't need to give permission to propagate their out-of-patent roses, but they should be graceful (to use Erasmus's word) about letting people use the actual name. I don't mean to be cynical, but I'd say follow the money, if you're trying to figure out why they're doing what they're doing. They know their legacy roses have a large fan-base, and they're trying to eradicate them to maximize future income, which is in their best interest bottom line.

Helen, in the 20+ years I've grown Austins, I never noticed the TM next to each name, so thanks for the info! And yes, I am aware of using the code name to find them. In fact, before Palatine's last offering in January, I looked up every single code name on HMF. At least now I have a hard copy reference for ~60 of them!

KS, why did you cancel your order? For what it's worth, not all of their roses are trademarked. And many other roses have trademarks. This is the reason some breeders such as Kordes Etc, will name roses reusing the same name as an old Rose. It is a way to keep the trademark intact without reapplying.

Vapor - that is very interesting, I didn't know that about reusing the same name.

Hi Vaporvac, I cancelled my order because I wanted them to know that this bothers me. I don't begrudge them the right to control and profit from the propagation of their plants, but it strikes me as greedy to cut off these small rose nurseries when this model obviously worked for them in the past. DA knows, I think, that their roses are "gateway roses" and people seek them out. Someone might only find Roses Unlimited because they are looking for a sold-out Austin. Of course when they order the box fits more than one, so maybe they add an old tea rose or some interesting China, or a modern Barni rose to their order at Pat's suggestion and suddenly a savvy rose grower is born. I care too much about the future of rose growing and rose availability in the USA to take this lightly since these small growers are also the ones offering the greatest variety. It is possible that these small growers will be fine (I hope so) but I don't like this. And as much as I'd like to try Gabriel Oak, there are so many other wonderful roses to grow that I'll have no problem thinking of another rose I want (in fact, there are too many for me to grow all of the roses that interest me, so not ordering DA roses is no hardship).

KS, that's exactly the case for me when I order from Roses Unlimited, an Austin, a Barni, and a bunch of on sale wild cards to make it 6. I remember the time when they last offered The Squire, and I didn't get it. I regretted later, and resulted in now I'm making more irresponsible purchase.

I bought the Squire from Roses Unlimited, but regret NOT getting Young Lycidas as own-root when Roses Unlimited offered it. Young Lycidas as grafted died through my zone 5 winter. The Squire has the best vase life (1 week) and can take 90 F heat. In hot July it's the prettiest bush in my garden. The Squire is a 6th-year-own-root:

The older & out-of-patent Austin have spectacular, pure heaven scent like Radio Times (it rooted itself through my zone 5 winter, and I killed the baby Radio Times since I have no room for a 2nd one), same with killing many baby Evelyn's (root very easily):

Every fragrant garden should have a Radio Times, I consider it as the most heavenly scent besides Comte de Chambord among my 140+ own-root Austin roses. My Radio Times is 11th-year own-root bought from Roses Unlimited. I should buy more own-root Austins from Roses Unlimited. Is Roses Unlimited still selling Austins for next year? Thanks for the info.

It's amazing how many DA cuttings drop on the ground and root Just amazing.

Straw, two weeks ago, i struck 3 cuttings of Radio Times. It's one of the maybe 15-20 out-of-commerce DAs I'm intending to propagate from my garden to share. I love Radio Times, and I've had it for ~ 20 years.

I would love to have Radio Time and Bishop Castle ownroot (not cutting, I couldn't get anything to root). Please let me know if you have any to share. I will pay for the cost of the plant and shipping.

Lek Arun, I also grow Bishop's Castle, but when I did my survey about which of my Austins I should prioritize for rooting, no one said Bishop's Castle, so I assumed it was still available. Honestly, it's not that great.

Noseometer grows both Radio Times and Bishop Castle and I recall his mentioning that Radio Times has a better scent than Bishop Castle, but Bishop Castle wafts better. Radio Times' scent is consistently strong if the pH is alkaline. I can stick my nose into Radio Times 24/7 if I have more time. With other roses, a few sniffs is enough.

I find Bishop's Castle to have a nice medium generic sweet fragrance, while Radio Times has a much stronger, more complex, fragrance (NOT myrrh) that I love. I also like the form of the blooms of Radio Times better than Bishop's Castle. Straw, I'm all alkaline, all the time, LOL.

This discussion about David Austin Roses is so interesting. I certainly go back and forth on liking them or not. The nodding blooms are just not as nice as more upright blooms, but often the scent makes up for it. I am wondering what is going on with them and interested to see. I hate to have roses bred in England hard to get, because they usually do well here. (Harkness Chandos Beauty seems like she is going to be hard to get for a while.)

Meanwhile I want to get a couple of older ones that I think are pretty unique. (Summer Song, Heritage and Radio Times sound divine too!) I also got Lady Emma Hamilton this year because of her scent and look, plus Wollerton Old Hall because I wanted one myrrh scent (I can't smell anything on it)...Both are grafted and I may try to "easy own root" both of them.

Hate what DA has done to small growers.....Covid has been hard enough on them.

Where can I get a full a full list of all the existing patented DA flowers?

Thanks

Go to DA breeder on HMF. Youll have to go through them yourself to check the patent date.

Lek Arun Radio Times is super easy to root. Message me so I can root one for you next year 2023. All the money goes to charity, I make zero profit, and even chip in my own money. This month, Oct 2022, I sent a check for $300 to Missionaries of Charity (Mother Teresa's nuns) in Chicago from the money received by rooting out-of-patent roses to friends & family.

Years ago, my sister started it first, she gave me a check for the 3 roses I rooted, so I donated that to the nuns in Chicago, they run a homeless shelter for women and children.

In rooting roses in my humid garden, the easiest to root are: Golden Celebration, Spirit of Freedom, Radio Times, Evelyn, Abraham Darby, Christopher Marlowe, the Dark Lady, the Squire, James Galway, W.S. 2000, Mary Magdalene, Pat Austin.

Gertrude Jekyll is slow to root (only 2 out of 10 made it). Jubilee Celebration, Ambridge rose and St. Cecilia are hardest to root since the stem is so thin.

Beth Hana I'm interested in BUYING your cuttings of the Prince & Cymbaline and any Austin that smell good from you. I almost bought the Prince back in 2012 from Chamblee's Nursery in Texas but my daughter didn't like its color !! Now I regret it. Few years ago I bought Young Lycidas and it died in its first winter in my zone 5a as grafted-on-Dr.Huey.

Grafted roses don't survive freezing rain in my poor drainage clay. Get tired of $3,000 worth of roses dying through my zone 5a winter for the past 3 decades, so I get into rooting roses to donate to charity instead.

pricklycuttingnoca I rooted a few The Squire this year, it's drought & heat tolerant.

Here's the list of the year introduced from Facebook David Austin group. Patent expires after 20 yrs. of introduction.

1963 : Constance Spry

1967 : Chianti

1968 : Shropshire Lass, Scintillation

1969 : Wife of Bath, Canterbury, Dame Prudence, The Friar, The Knight, The Prioress, The Yeoman

1970 : Chaucer, The Miller

1973 : Charles Austin, Lilian Austin, Red Coat

1974 : Glastonbury

1977 : The Squire

1979 : The Countryman, The Reeve

1982 : Admired Miranda, Charmian, Fair Bianca, Hero, Leander, Prospero, Proud Titania, Wise Portia

1983 : Graham Thomas, Mary Rose, Cressida, Cymbaline, Jaquenetta, Lordly Oberon, Lucetta, Moonbeam, Perdita, Pretty Jessica, Sir Clough, Tamora, Troilus

1984 : Belle Story, Bredon, Dove, Ellen, Heritage, Hilda Murrell, Mary Webb, Wenlock, Windrush

1985 : Abraham Darby, Emanuel, Mountain Snow, Sir Walter Raleigh

1986 : Symphony, Claire Rose, English Garden, Gertrude Jekyll, Othello, Robbie Burns, Warwick Castle, Wild Flower

1987 : Doctor Jackson, Fisherman's Friend, St. Cecelia, Swan, The Nun, William Shakespeare

1988 : Charles Rennie Mackintosh, Financial Times Centenary, Francine Austin, Leonard Dudley Braithwaite, Potter and Moore, Queen Nefertiti, Snowdon, Winchester Cathedral.

1989 : Sharifa Asma, Sweet Juliet, Bibi Maizoon

1990 : Jayne Austin, Ambridge Rose, Brother Cadfael, Kathryn Morley, Lilac Rose, Peach Blossom, The Prince

1991 : Bow Bells, Evelyn, Cottage Rose, Country Living, The Dark Lady, The Pilgrim

1992 : Sir Edward Elgar, Emily, Glamis Castle, Golden Celebration, Immortal Juno, Redouté , The Alexandra Rose, Tradescant

1993 : Happy Child, Mrs. Doreen Pike, Radio Times, St. Swithun, Proud Bride

1994 : Charlotte, Eglantyne, John Clare, Molineux, The Herbalist

1995 : Pat Austin, Noble Anthony, Jude the Obscure, Pegasus, English Elegance, Heavenly Rosalind

1996 : Morning mist

1997 : Tess of the D'Urbervilles, Sophy's Rose, Scepter'd Isle, Ann, Trevor Griffith, Barbara Austin, Charity, Geoff Hamilton, Mayor Of Casterbridge, Heather Austin, Mistress Quickly, A Shropshire Lad, Snow Goose, Marinette, Rushing Stream, Windflower

1998 : Buttercup, Dr. Herbert Gray, Mary Magdalene, William Morris, Teasing Georgia

1999 : Falstaff, Anne Boleyn, Blythe Spirit, Portmeiron

2000 : Crocus Rose (Syn Emanuel) , William Shakespeare 2000, Crown Princess Margareta, Cordelia, Miss Alice, James Galway, Malvern Hills, Ludlow Castle (syn. England's Rose)

2001 : Benjamin Britten, Alnwick Castle, Charles Darwin, Comtes des Champagne, Corvedale, Grace, The Mayflower

2002 : Christopher Marlowe, Jubilee Celebration, Lochinvar, Mortimer Sackler, Spirit of Freedom, The Generous Gardener

2003 : Janet, Rose-Marie, Scarborough Fair, Wildeve

2004 : Queen of Sweden, Harlow Carr, Rose of Picardy, Rosemoor, Hyde Hall, St. Alban, Wisley, The Ingenious Mr.Fairchild, Carding Mill

2005 : Wild Edric, Summer Song, Gentle Hermione, Darcey Bussell, Lady Emma Hamilton, The Endeavour

2006 : Sister Elizabeth, Strawberry Hill, Tea Clipper, Lichfield Angel, Windermere

2007 : Skylark, Port Sunlight, Munstead Wood, Claire Austin, Princess Alexandra of Kent, Bishop's Castle, The Shepardess, Alan Titchmarch, Lady of Megginch

2008 : Sir John Betjeman, Wisley 2008, Young Lycidas

2009 : The Wedgewood Rose, Kew Gardens, Lady of Shalott, Tam O'Shanter

2010 : Maid Marion, Cariad, Englands Rose, Princess Anne, Susan Williams-Ellis, The Lady's Blush

2011 : Fighting Temeraire, Lady Salisbury, William and Katherine, Queen Anne, Wollerton Old Hall

2012 : Heathcliff, Tranquillity, Boscobel, Royal Jubilee, The Lark Ascending

2013 : Carolyn Knight, The Albrighton Rambler, The Lady Gardener, Thomas`a Becket

2014 : Olivia Rose Austin, The Lady of the Lake, The Poet's Wife

2015 : Desdemona, Sir Walter Scott, The Ancient Mariner

2016 : Bathsheba, Imogen, Roald Dahl

2017 : James L. Austin, Dame Judi Dench, Vanessa Bell

2018 : Emily Bronte, The Mill on the Floss, Tottering-on-Gently

2019 : Eustacia Vue, Gabriel Oak

2020: Silas Marner, The Country Parson

2021: Nye Bevan

Thank you for the list Straw! What is the name of the group on Facebook? I've been looking for a few and that could be very helpful.

It's David Austin group on Facebook. It's a public group.

What strawchicago's list doesn't show is which names still have a valid registered trademark. This is Austin's way of draining every drop of blood out of the turnip. Their greed is unlimited.

Austin is a business, and I don't see them as any greedier than other successful businesses. Too many rose "businesses" are no longer in business. We want to keep what rose breeders and sellers that have managed to survive in the aftermath of a pandemic, and who are dealing with a general feeling the gardening public has that growing roses is too difficult. Diane