@bethesdabeth

Horizontal measurement, unless gratuitously out, will not tell you about square. That is most aptly determined from diagonal measurements and comparison in conjunction with the level measurements of the horizontal and vertical.

Trying to avoid the classic contractor trap here of picking on another person's work...but confirming squareness of installation is really pretty easy and it does NOT start and stop with a level check of the horizontal.

level and square are starting points, fine tuning of the reveals is often done visually. Make sure the frame and sash are square , if not it will be futile .

@Windows on Washington Ltd Good point you've made here. Obviously I'm not the expert -- I guess if I were I'd be installing windows myself. The supervisor who was watching the installers held the level horizontally and said, "See, it's square." So maybe he was being disingenuous, or maybe he's clueless about proper installation. Definitely insinuating that me making a stink of things being off 1/8 on a 4' vertical is being inordinately nitpicky.

"Definitely insinuating that me making a stink of things being off 1/8 on a 4' vertical is being inordinately nitpicky."

That is not being "notpicky", that can be the difference between the window operation properly or closing properly and sealing. This is a quick and east trick to check if the unit it installed square

@millworkman Thanks for your input. Now waiting for Marvin technician to replace weatherstripping and will reach out to the installer again after that is done regarding installation. The installers came by and said that that gap was reasonable. Seems like I need to hold my ground. Again, if there were a "pocket engagement" on this style of window (and I don't see why there isn't, to be honest) slight inaccuracies in the install wouldn't be so obvious. The design of these windows makes it important to have 100% accuracy in the install.

@bethesdabeth

It's a large window, make no mistake, but if a 6'8" was out as much as indicated in your one picture, it would miss proper engagement with the weatherstripping as well. I don't think, so far, this is a product issue with regards to "design". If it was made out of square, yes...it's a product issue. But taller swing doors have similar weatherstripping engagement (i.e. not pocketed), and are pretty darn airtight.

1/8" is very small indeed. That looks like a bit more than 1/8" to my eye, at least from the picture.

@Windows on Washington Ltd It's 3/16" at its widest, as best as I can measure. Feels like more to me, as well, because my eye is drawn to that black gap between the white. Just looks sloppy, like the window is slightly cracked open on one side.

"The installers came by and said that that gap was reasonable"

Reasonable by their tolerances. The manufacturer instructions will dictate if the gap is truly "reasonable".

See this link Window square

Good video reference @lkbum_gw

@bethesdabeth take a look at the video above and see if you, with an extra set of hands because of the window size, can confirm some of those measurements.

As stated before, if the window was made out of square (certainly possible), you can confirm or rule that out via some measurements. If the window was installed out of square, that will be determinable via proper measurements as well.

Nothing about more weatherstripping is going to "fix" that run out gap of 3/16" in this case. Please post back as you determine the source of the issue as I think that the record should reflect what the actual cause of the issue is. The echo chamber of who is at fault is really strong with some folks so the record should hopefully be accurate for future posters.

@dottt1

Safe to assume you were referring to me? Hilarious that you would toss around that term for someone else when all anyone has to do is post the tiniest negative tidbit on Marvin and you are salivating like Pavlov's Dog. All of this negativity in your spirit just because you didn't actually go and look at the window that you were going to put into your home before you released the order. And folks wonder what is wrong in this world when we have abdicated personal responsibility as long as you are upset about something.

So, once again -- I went and looked at what was shown in the showroom. For what wasn't shown, I had to rely on the salesperson to fill in the blanks. It was unfortunate that I couldn't rely on the salesperson to be responsible, honest and know the product. I also double checked certain things with Marvin windows whose customer service person didn't know or deliberately misrepresented some aspects of the product. But winston1man knows better -- he was there, of course, standing next to me through the whole process lol! He obviously has some connection to Marvin windows -- probably sells them. Shame he can't just admit that Marvin windows have a lot of problems and stop trying to make it personal about me and invalidating my experience when he wasn't there. He does a disservice to this site and to the others who have issues with their Marvin windows. No amount of trashing me is going to change or even deflect from the fact that Marvin windows have serious issues in design, quality control and the use of cheap materials that just don't hold up. I will continue to comment as others share their negative experiences with Marvin so they know they were not the only ones. Winston1man's comments just show the sleazy side of window sales that someone would troll and invalidate the experience of a consumer on sites like Houzz. He hopes by being a bully to me that others will feel too intimidated to share their negative experiences with Marvin windows. I'm glad that bethesdabeth and others have shared their negative experiences, too.

SD Rob The frames are actually ABS plastic. The only part of the window that is fiberglass is the part around the glass except for the lower sash top which is also ABS plastic. And again, I was told the windows were all fiberglass except for seals and a few small parts.

That is interesting, how do you know the frames are ABS? If so I would say it is a bit deceptive.

toddinmn I found out from another window dealer. I was shocked. He found it out from some paperwork he had (regarding installation if my memory serves me). I should add here that I did call Marvin at that point and they verified the information was true.

Would you please share your opinion on having different window brands in a home? I really hate the thought of putting more of those Marvins on the north side. But I'm not sure anything is really going to look close. Because the house is site situated for passive solar, it was very important to maximize glass space on the south. For the north that won't be as important. Right now, the north has old Anderson windows. They held up pretty well on the north side, but disintegrated in the high-altitude strong sun on the south. But they really do need to be replaced.

It would be nice if a thread could just be about the question that was being asked vs. derailment.

Windows on Washington Ltd Exactly. The original post asked for "Feedback on Marvin Essential (Owners or Installers)." Those are the windows I unfortunately bought. And I have given feedback on them.

@dottt1 Regarding having different brands in a house I don't think it really matters. From the exterior, the Anderson Renewals look similar enough to the Essentials (except for the screens perhaps) that it would take some real scrutiny to notice the difference. I've done the north side of my house now, which isn't visible from the street. The whole west side of my house is floor-to-ceiling windows, with fixed panes, sliders, and trapezoids, most of it single-pane glass. There's nothing on the market that would mimic the look of those aluminum-framed windows without going for steel-framed commercial grade which I might do if I win the lottery. I've seen people in my neighborhood with similar houses (all MCM style) who've tried to replace the moving windows with insulated windows from places like Marvin, et. al. and it just looks really incongruous. I picked the Essentials partially because they are low-profile, but they're not low-profile enough to not stick out like a sore thumb in a wall of glass.

bethesdabeth Well, I've got the winter to figure it out. I wonder if you saw this comparison: https://www.ebyexteriors.com/blog/windows-and-doors/marvin-vs-andersen-windows. It really is food for thought. (there are also comparisons on Pella and Marvin. https://www.ebyexteriors.com/blog/windows-and-doors/marvin-vs-pella-windows-brand-comparison ) So, as I read through the comparisons, there are problems with all of the windows!! Andersen's fibrex has longetivity issues, Pella has finish issues, we both know all too well what the Marvin Essential issues are. You mentioned aluminum windows. My basement has those aluminum sliders on six window wells. They are really nice and have never had any issues at all. But I hesitated putting them on the rest of the house even with a thermal break because of possible seal failure. Where I live the temperature wildly fluctuates over short periods of time. The metal can't keep up with the change in glass temps sometimes resulting in seal failure in theory on aluminum windows (though the basement ones have not had seal failure since they were installed in 1983 -- maybe because they are protected by the window wells).

"The metal can't keep up with the change in glass temps sometimes resulting in seal failure in theory on aluminum windows"

Commercial units use thee same seals and the same glass in thermally broken, thermally enhanced and non-thermal frames every day all over the world. That "theory" is nonexistent.

Those are not "blogs", those are one installers opinion with nothing to backup any of it other than there opinions, nothing anyone can backup. And this statement proves it:

"While Pella made their name with their high-quality, custom, all-wood windows,"

However, that installer's comparison seems backed up by other reports (especially those of fibrex problems). And the Pella finish problems I actually saw. That's why I did not go with Pella. The salesperson who sold me the Marvin essentials used the aluminum window seal failure issue to discourage me from getting thermal-break aluminum. I also see it mentioned a great deal online as a disadvantage of aluminum windows (even with the thermal break) in locations like mine. The temperature here can be 60-70 degrees in the day time after snow fell the previous night. But it wouldn't surprise me if that's just a tactic to push fiberglass windows.

"Marvin doesn't build junk."

Perhaps they've changed in 20 years.

Maybe that was before the Essential line?

The justification for fiberglass on the basis that it "moves" with the glass is both flatly incorrect as well as completely worthless, if it were even true. The other claim of tensile strength having ANY contribution to the function, strength, or longevity of a glazing product is also completely untrue. A class action lawsuit from 21 years ago is hardly a condemnation of a product line of company. You build and make as much stuff as they have, you are bound to have some junk go out from time to time. Nobody is perfect over the course of their history.

Windows on Washington Ltd Actually, fibrex failures are recent and ongoing. There is even a discussion on this site with pictures. Pretty sure the class action lawsuit was for a different reason (I have the class action lawsuit Andersen windows on the north side of my home still). I don't think anyone is saying the fiberglass "moves." It just changes temperature at nearly the same rate as the glass. I don't claim to understand all of it, but in an attempt to do thorough research before purchasing, I ran into that again and again (and it was reinforced by the sales person, for what that's worth). So much for thorough research. I might as well have flipped a coin or consulted the runes lol. I did learn that fiberglass windows were the number one selling window for my area because of the extreme temperature shifts here.

The idea of the fiberglass "changing temperature" is with regards to its claimed coefficient of expansion being close to that of glass. The temperature of the substrate is of no consequence except as it pertains to its linear expansion or contraction.

Again, the idea that temperature "extremes" create failures in other windows that are properly designed is simply not true. If fiberglass is the best selling window material in your area, it's because they have some good salespersons there that are good at exploiting a fact and making it seem important to the design of the window.

With regards to Fibrex, I don't recall saying that they weren't ongoing. Not sure what the reference is.

The Marvin class action lawsuit was the result of the "Woodlife" preservative used causing premature rot, Marvin made good on the claims and the payouts almost put them out of business if I recall correctly.

Windows on Washington Ltd Thought you were referring to my comment about Andersen Fibrex failures. Andersen did have a class action lawsuit, but I do not think it was due to Fibrex. So what lawsuit were you referring to 20 years ago that the company should be forgiven for since the problem no longer exists? Which company? What lawsuit?

I'm sad but not at all surprised to hear that the whole fiberglass temperature thing is just a marketing ploy. I read and was told so much that over time proved to be false. There really is no way for a consumer to make a completely informed decision on windows with so much false information in the literature and from salespeople.

Another reason why fiberglass outsells other products where I live is hail. My vinyl Andersen windows became brittle over time, and hail went right through. It is doubtful the same would happen with fiberglass. Unless it's toughness is also a marketing ploy lol.

@dottt1 I was referring to the article linked by Joseph Corlett that is about 7 posts up from this one here.

With regards to unbiased information, forums such as think and the other window discussion forums are great ways to get access to professional level and quality information from folks that have been doing this for years and aren't trying to sell you anything.

Windows on Washington Ltd Thanks for clarifying about the lawsuit. Yes, I agree to an extent. Some of the experts on this site seem somewhat brand loyal to windows they sell and/or install. If I had it to do all over again, I would have started with posting here and on Green Building Advisor asking for the best window for my area of the country -- high altitude, sun that is very harsh to houses/windows, hail storm alley, high winds, rapid extreme changes in temperature, arid/dry most of the time. And I would have asked about the returns (if that's the right term) -- specifically what are they made of. And screen quality, etc. And, of course, energy efficiency. Marvin makes energy efficiency claims that I don't think are true. Deciding not to get Pella was easy because I got to see the finish problems. Like someone else in this discussion, I was turned off by Andersen Renewal sales people. And it was easy to decide against vinyl because I had already experienced how fast it gets brittle here and hail punches through. In the future, I will NEVER rely on window sales people OR the manufacturer's customer service people. Both proved to know next to nothing about the product they are selling/manufacturing. Sometimes they were outright deceptive. And I will never go by what is in the showroom. The samples are often incomplete or otherwise not as they will be in your home. As a first-time window buyer, it has been an expensive learning experience. In the end, I've got little choice but to accept as good enough what I did purchase. Marvin dropped the ball on quality (without dropping the price).

@dottt1

Don't mistake "brand loyalty" for favoring a particular product because of a distinct and documented history with a given product. I don't recommend product "X" or product "Y" because of some underlying agenda. I do so, in the case of our company, because we have a long and observable history with a given product or company. At the end of the day, we, like most of the contractors on here, recommend the suite of products that we do because of their performance track records and deliverable quality.

As to your point of vinyl, probably don't want to make such an overarching review of the material in total because of a bad experience with a product that was never engineered to stand up. The vinyl in their cladding was never designed to last and outside of the base material namesake of PVC, does NOT share anything with its more well engineered brethren material substrates.

For example, my buddy had Hyundai in HS and it was a total piece of crap car. I would not be safe to assume that all cars are the same kind of crap.

As it stands now, Hyundai and Kia make some of the nicest cars on the planet now. But you get the point.

Windows on Washington Ltd I get the point, and it is valid. That cladding may have been what the class action lawsuit was about. I'm not sure because we missed being a part of the lawsuit. But I do know that it's still happening here with hail breaking through vinyl (other homes, other window brands). This is a tough environment for a vinyl product. Fiberglass has an advantage here for that reason. And that's coming from homeowners, not window salespeople.

@dottt1

The class of vinyl product that would be used by track builders in a new construction capacity would fall into the same class of product that the cladding you mentioned.

Very thin on the mill thickness, lacking proper UV inhibitors and stabilizing agents, and and overall weak product.

The vast majority of Impact rated products that are used in hurricane alley and in the islands (i.e. harsh UV exposure + flying projectiles) are vinyl.

Properly engineered vinyl will hold up just as well as a fiberglass product will in this comparison (i.e. UV and hail). The reality is that anything that hits hard enough to approach the point where it would penetrate, will so disastrously damage the finish that the window will be rendered for replacement anyway.

You lost me at Hyundai.

@toddinmn You ain't exactly Magellan when it comes to navigating a point though.

There have been some interesting comments here. I'm not sure why a sliding window would be built to be obsolete. There's not much that can break on them. (As much as I like the clean look of casements I've yet to encounter a house without a stripped crank.) My Anderson Renewal windows (made from Fibrex) have worked flawlessly for up to 20 years (bought at different intervals) and the seals have held. My former house from 1922 had the original six-over one single paned glass wooden windows with lead sash weights -- they still worked and I could replace panes if needed since I know how to glaze. Admittedly not energy efficient. Still waiting on the final word from the technician from the company that installed my Essentials. They know I'm not happy with the design of that weatherstripping. I could buy rope caulk from Home Depot that would be more insulating.

@dottt1 My aluminum framed windows, which date to 1961, are single-paned. They still "work" as in open and close but are highly inefficient (sometimes ice up on the inside). I do love the way they look, though, because they are essentially frameless. Now have insulated windows on the north exposure of my house. Not racing to replace the others right now. I live in the DC area so winter is relatively short.

Who said that sliders were "obsolete"? The design of the product being a separate conversation, the window is not installed square to my eye.

@Windows on Washington Ltd referring to a comment that implies windows are now designed to fall apart. Seems like a pretty basic product that should last for decades if not centuries.

Windows on Washington Ltd You mention vinyl windows holding up well in the islands. High-altitude sun is a whole different ball game. But even if one could find a vinyl window that would withstand the elements in a climate like the one in which my house is located, there would still be the disadvantage of loss of glass space. I'm not familiar with a vinyl window that is as streamlined as fiberglass. Anyway, I want to ask you two questions. 1) Is Marvin Essential a bad window in your opinion? And 2) What's the best window in your opinion?

@bethesdabeth We don't deal in any products that deliberately engage in an engineered obsolescence foundation, but pretty much every product that is used in track built new construction willfully does. Combine that with every appliance (as high end as you want to go with sub zero and beyond) in the home as well as every other material except the wiring, framing, and concrete...they all have dramatically shorter predictions than you reference.

As does everything these days. The windows that lasted over 100 years from before don't exist. Mostly because the missing calculus from that lifespan is MAINTENANCE. Yes, that 100 year old window was harvested from a very dense timber strand...but it only makes it that long when its covered in about 17 coats of paint. Same with the siding. You leave any uncovered or finished wood exposed in a climate with any wet season, it's gonna fail. Obviously...you know this. But I feel like basic realism in the projections is worthy for context. Even that aluminum window, in climate with some rain, will experience some sort of finish degradation over time that would make it visually an eyesore.

@dottt1 My college stays were spent at a school at over 7,000 feet so I understand the strength of the sun. The sun is stronger at that altitude but the overall strength (i.e. seasonal exposure) is less. I would say that the windows that are closer to the Equator still get more UV exposure in aggregate than most high altitude applications.

Fiberglass, based on the ability to pultrude narrow and heavy mill thickness profiles, does have the ability to run some narrow frames. Most vinyl manufactures will not attempt to design a narrow profile with attention to profile width and visible glass because it is cheaper and easier to use a larger profile for profile stability. That said, there are several vinyl suppliers that will provide similar VT (visible transmittance) numbers as fiberglass windows (Ex. VT of 62 for both the Elevate with clear glass as well as Okna and Sunrise).

To your question, is the Marvin Essentials a "bad" windows, no. Obviously it missed the mark for you in several capacities and I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion if those criteria in question, are of importance. That said, in the larger comparison to the products available in the marketplace, the Marvin Essentials in not a bad window. Is the Elevate a better looking window, yes. Do I recommend the Essentials over the Elevate, no. Before the accusations of being Marvin "homer" are levied, I don't know when the last Marvin job we sold was as a point of reference.

The "best" window depends solely on the needs, necessities, and aesthetics of the client. That is as varied and diverse as the construction out there. There are good products in every category and if folks spent the same amount of time researching less "sexy" products like windows, siding, etc....as they did kitchen countertops...they'd probably land on better products. On the average, of course.

Hope this helps. Happy Thursday.

@Windows on Washington Ltd Yeah, you sound knowledgeable. Would definitely consider working with your company next time around since you're in my area.

Sounds good. Hope you get it figured out with them.

Windows on Washington Ltd "My college stays were spent at a school at over 7,000 feet so I understand the strength of the sun. The sun is stronger at that altitude but the overall strength (i.e. seasonal exposure) is less."

My high-altitude city has more sunny days in winter than San Diego!

"There are good products in every category and if folks spent the same amount of time researching less "sexy" products like windows, siding, etc....as they did kitchen countertops...they'd probably land on better products."

I spent more time researching windows than I did any large purchase I've ever made in my life thus far. I considered windows to be the most important purchase I would make for my home's renovation. What I discovered was that windows have to be researched differently than one would research roofing, a new furnace, flooring or whatever. With windows, what appeared to be reliable sources of information just weren't.

I am very glad to hear you say my windows are not bad windows.

@dottt1

I don't doubt that, but not necessarily as many as the islands in the Caribbean and probably not as "strong" in the winter months given the tilt of the Earth. Point being is that well engineered vinyl does quite well in those situations.

With regards to your research, I am sure you did spend a good amount of time on it. I am not sure what the standard for research on building products is, but it's hard for me to look through the lens of someone that doesn't do it all day at this point. I will concede that many supply house persons can unintentionally represent themselves as experts when they are lacking the breath of knowledge to truly be as such.

I think the arid nature of this place may play a part in the vinyl drying out and becoming brittle rather quickly vs. the moist air of the islands. But I just have to ask: Andersen (Renewal or other line) vs. Marvin Essentials -- who wins in your humble opinion?

@dottt1

Don't mistake my input as being argumentative, but relative humidity has nothing to do with vinyl "drying" out. Builder's grade vinyl and cheap vinyl in a clad wood option, will have far less of the UV stabilizing agents that will keep the vinyl from being degraded by the sun. If you put a piece of PVC piping (intended for interstitial wall spaces) in the sunlight, regardless of altitude or moisture, it will become brittle and compromised rather quickly. A poorly engineered vinyl that lacks those additional materials, is not designed for longevity.

The windows that are recommended on here are designed for longevity and include those things in the extrusions.

If my choice is binary in this case...its a 50/50 split for me. That said, those two choices usually have significantly more complexity and considerations (i.e. price, vendor, etc.). I can see an argument for both and I can see drawbacks in both. Based on your voiced concerns, the RBA was obviously the better choice. Better than that would probably have been the Elevate or a different fiberglass manufacturer altogether. Hope this helps.

Windows on Washington Ltd That does help. After everything, I've concluded pretty much the same thing -- it's a split with drawbacks and advantages to both.