@Aglitter The moment you have been waiting for. I tested the Badujet Turbo Pro today.

Overall the Turbo Pro was as expected. The unit was very quiet, I’m sure it would satisfy even the most discerning user. You only hear the flow of the water past your ears, no motor sound at all. It was also quiet out of the pool, so you would not disturb the neighbors. The current was very smooth. Visually there appeared to be a slight chop on top at high speeds, but it was a non issue while swimming. The current was very easy to stay centered in, with one caveat. The current starts fairly narrow where it exits the nozzle (8 inches in diameter) at fans out the length of the pool. The test pool was 20 feet long and 12-15 feet wide. The current slows down as it fans out as would be expected. My sweet spot was with my head 5-6 feet from the nozzle with the my hands entering the water 3-4 feet from the nozzle. I don’t know if it would have been hard to stay centered if I got closer to the nozzle but I suspect it would. If you let yourself drift back, the current slows and it is a good way to catch a breather. I’m not sure if the current would fan out quite so much in a narrower pool. This widening of the current is not a problem, just something to be aware of. I like having the control buttons on the grate, to me that is best location of any of the pools I looked at. However the current varies from 650 gpm to 1500 gpm with only 10 steps. If you need finer control, you can vary your position in the current. You can also control the current at the control box in one gpm increments, but you have to get out of the pool to do that. You can also vary the current in one gpm increments using their app. The current at the highest level was faster than any of the pools I tested and I’m sure it would satisfy most competitive swimmers.

So, am I going to get one? Right now I would say I’m leaning toward the PDC TSX17. While the current of the Badujet was better for serious swimming, the PDC was more than adequate for me. The PDC was a bit smoother, and wider from the beginning. The Badujet was quieter and stronger. However, the big advantage to me of the PDC is that you can just set it in place, connect the electricity and go. The Badujet would require building a pool or installing a fiberglass pool. Don’t get me wrong, the Badujet itself is very easy to install. The challenge for me is getting the pool itself built. Plus, the Badujet would require a larger pool. They recommend a minimum of 10 ft wide and 20 ft long. The width recommendation is in case you want to do butterfly but he said you could do 8 ft if you’re comfortable staying centered in the current. The 20 ft recommendation is to keep the current from going over the back wall at higher settings. This could be solved with a higher back wall. However, since you’ll be swimming a ways back from the front wall, I think 16 ft minimum, probably slightly more, with no seats or steps at your feet. BTW, the unit is flush with the front wall, so there’s that.

Let me know if you have any questions.

@Mike Wrob Thank you, thank you, thank you! You are the best! In the 5 years I have been participating in the Houzz forums, I have to my recollection never before printed out a comment, but I just printed out a hard copy of your Badu Turbo Pro test results so I can save them securely! The combination of noise reduction plus good swim current is exactly what I had hoped the unit would provide but could not be sure about given the limited material online, and your test results are magnificent. Thank you so much for making the trip to Florida and sharing the experience with all of us. I'm so excited now that maybe I can have a swim spa after all with the Badu Turbo Pro!

Here are a few reactions to each point, as follows:

• Win on Noise! - I'm loving your description of "no motor sound at all" both in and out of the water. At present, the solitary live audio video available from an Irish Badu dealer on YouTube seems to indicate some sound in addition to water flow, but this was with one of the newest Turbo Pro models in an enclosed facility with a cell phone microphone that amplified any noise like a sonar. Improvements in the unit could have been made since then, and at least three people including yourself have said the unit is "very quiet" in person. Win, win win!!! Noise level and current quality are the two problems that very few swim current manufacturers have solved in tandem, and both are so critical to me personally that I would not embark upon installing a swim spa unless both issues had been addressed to near-perfection. My installation would be outdoors, and the open air would help mitigate every noise, including operational noises like filter circulation.
• Current Relatively Smooth - Thanks for your observation on the smoothness of the current. Videos had shown some turbulence, which must be the "slight chop on top at high speeds" you noted. Those Turbo Pro videos I've seen must be demonstrating speeds higher than would be necessary for an extended fitness session at moderate to low speeds, based on your report. It's good to know that any turbulence produced was a non-issue while swimming.
• Sweet Spot Fairly Far Back - Your finding the sweet spot with head 5 to 6 feet back (hands entering 3 to 4 feet back) is unsurprising based on similar patterns of demonstrators in the Turbo Pro videos online, and it is good to have your confirmation. On a side note, being able to swim a bit further back from the source of the wave probably also helps with noise reduction.
• Question of How Long to Make the Pool - Knowing the sweet spot is fairly far back rules out a 15-foot or less minimum-length pool for all but maybe children, in my opinion. You suggested a "16-foot minimum, probably slightly more with no seats or steps at your feet." I think the 20-foot minimum rule suggested by one of the Badu techs to whom you spoke is probably the safest advice to allow for a range of heights of potential swimmers. At a height of 5 feet 7 inches, my body length with arms and toes fully extended is about 8 feet, so the gap needed between hands and feet to pool walls would be right on the line of requiring more than 15 feet for someone my height. By the time you build a 17- or 18-foot pool, why not be roomy and go for 20? The number differences sound big on paper, but in the field, it's not that much difference. Some strokes like breaststroke and butterfly will probably see the swimmer moving forward and back a little in a swim current, and as you said, it is good to be able to float further back for a slower pace from time to time as needed.
• Width of Test Pool Surprising - I'm surprised by the width of the test pool, at 12 to 15 feet wide. That certainly brings more considerations into planning an installation and may even point to a round pool. I've always thought a round pool would facilitate the intake design of the Turbo Pro beautifully since intake is at both sides. You said the reps recommended a minimum of 10 feet in width but that 8 feet would qualify. Again, if you are going to the trouble of building a pool, I think the extra 2 feet will be negligible in cost, and you might as well go for the space. You'll have a little extra energy costs maintaining and heating the extra gallons, so that would be the only reason to reduce the space. Once again, a round pool would shine here because you would have the extra width right where you needed it but without the maintenance of the extra gallons of a square pool. Notably, a round pool can be safely installed above-ground due to the engineering of the shape resisting water pressure, while a square pool is usually in-ground for support. Some above-ground pool suppliers like Crestwood also offer both oval and round pools, but the ovals require side supports that the round pools do not.
• Badu Should Step Up Its Game on Controls? - It could be that Badu is running into technical limitations making more fine-grained control available while inside the pool, but the 10-step control falls behind its competitors' offerings at the high end of the swim spa market, and needing to get out of the pool for additional control sounds messy. It could be that someone who swims regularly would be able to adjust the flow satisfactorily at a set speed, but I really love the programmable workouts you can get with Master Spas, and that would be a great addition to the Badu Turbo Pro some day. Doing that would probably introduce the problematic touch pad system, though, so until that technology improves, maybe the knob is preferable due to reliability. For competitive athletes, they will love knowing they cannot max out the Badu Turbo Pro to train at their desired speed, a problem with most other swim spas on the market (in addition to noise and current drag) and one of the reasons more competitive athletes aren't shopping for residential swim spas.

It's natural you would be leaning toward the PDC TruSwim TSX17 because that is what you originally wanted, a ready-to-go, freestanding unit to place next to your existing deck. Also, the TruSwim current is wider and smoother than the Turbo Pro and offers plenty of power for your needs. The only drawback is the lack of second therapy seat. PDC could probably add some standing therapy jets to the unit at side back (similar to Endless Pools' and Master Spas' standing therapy jets) for you as a custom order, but I'm not sure it would be worth it if you have a secondary hot tub. By the time you get a TSX17 set, including having a foundation poured, hiring street-to-site movers, and electrical work done (bonding perimeter conductive materials in accordance with the National Electrical Code standards is a must for safety, and beware that not all contractors automatically do this for a swim spa), you will be beyond the $50K mark, and that is a lot of money, but whether or not you could get a pool built for the same amount is questionable. Not too long ago, $50K was an entry-level price point for an in-ground pool, but I spoke with a retired pool builder recently who told me current entry prices are closer to $80K to get an in-ground pool built these days, which wouldn't surprise me with inflation.

Pros and cons of freestanding vs. in-ground swim spa are something that only you can gauge as to importance, but if I were making a list personally, the foremost item would be which swim current I favored. All else would pale in comparison to how well I liked each facet of the swim experience. Assuming the swim experiences, site requirements, and building permit accommodations were equal, then I would want to consider the probability of how long I would be at the location (freestanding swim spas can be moved with you), how upset I would be when the freestanding exterior cabinet started to fade or warp from sun exposure (it will happen in time, but most of those swim spa cabinets can be repainted with special paint), and what my anticipated budget would be if I ended up needing to replace the swim spa down the road, since an in-ground pool usually has a longer life expectancy than a portable swim spa. Longevity between in-ground vs. freestanding swim spas becomes irrelevant if a move is expected before 20 years elapses. How well energy costs could be controlled between the two types of installations would also be important for me personally. Some people would place beauty as a factor, which isn't high on my list, but to illustrate that point, here are a few photos of what your backyard could look like with an in-ground swim lane and water features like an infinity edge:

You didn't want a liner pool, but just for fun I'm throwing in a photo of an above-ground liner pool from Crestwood made of Grade 1 Southern Yellow Pine. If you could create a mount for the Badu Turbo Pro, I think a pool like this including the Badu Turbo Pro unit would come in under $20K, so it is the least expensive option of any we have discussed for a decent swim lane experience. Crestwood uses high-quality liners that need replacement about every 10 years. Other options for wood pools exist including from water tower manufacturers using cedar and planks thicker than Crestwood uses. Wood is an excellent insulator, and foam is placed between the wood and the liner in these above-ground models for added insulation. All told, however, a wood pool will not conserve heat in the wintertime as well as a TruSwim would if you plan to swim all year.

Your review was thorough, and I don't have questions at the moment. If I do go forward building a Badu Turbo Pro pool, I'll be heading to Florida myself to test the unit, and one of the things I'd like to check is how far down the unit is set from the water's edge. It looks low to me in demonstration videos, and I would want to be sure there wasn't any dead space on top of the current due to placement such as is rumored to be present with the Master Spas Michael Phelps' line of swim spas where the propeller is set too low and the current doesn't reach the top soon enough. It could be that if swimmers could swim further back in the MP units, they would get the proper effect as the current had more room to rise to the top, but that is impossible due to the limitations of the acrylic shells in the MP line.

It's impossible to thank you enough for your reviews. Thank you so much, and happy swimming whatever setup you end up choosing!

@Aglitter No worries. Your posts have been extremely helpful and it’s the least I can do to return the favor.

A few comments or clarifications. I think the TruSwim current is better than the Badujet current. It is a little smoother and it is wider at the source so it is consistent for the length of the pool. The Badujet is without a question quieter. Although I thought the Truswim was pretty quiet, if you thought the E700 is too loud, you won’t be satisfied with the Truswim, it is a little louder than the E700. By the way, the Master Spa was very quiet as well, as quiet or quieter than the Turbo Pro.

After experiencing the hydro seats, they’re nice but hardly critical for me. I will be just fine with the one seat of the TruSwim.

I think most people would be satisfied with either the Turbo Pro or the TruSwim. It comes down to what you are looking for in a pool. The TruSwim is good because you can pretty much drop it in place and be ready to go. You also get the other bells and whistles like a hydro seat, LED lighting, etc. The Badujet is going to apeal to the person that wants their own pool design or wants an in ground pool.

In my case the cost is not the issue as much as the availabilty of someone to build a pool for me.

As far as the durability of the complete units, I’m not really worried. The structural part of the acrylic shell is warrantied for 35 years and the surface finish is warrantied for 15 years. Since I will be keeping the pool covered and maintaining good water quality, I think the surface will hold up fine. The sun is relentless where I will be installing the pool, so I expect the cover and cabinet will need periodic replacement. The cover problem will be the same regardless of which pool I install. The cabinet will just require replacing the Trex every few years. The pumps etc. will have the same life regardless, they don’t know whether they’re serving a swim spa or in ground pool. The electrical work will be the same for a swim spa or in ground pool. Again, I think it comes down to personal preference.

Thanks again for the great discussion.

@Mike Wrob Well, it was a HUGE favor for you to give such a comprehensive review of the Badu Turbo Pro, and thanks for these clarifications! I'm glad to know the information I've shared has been helpful, but as you have experienced, it really all comes down to how the wet testing performs for each individual swimmer as to which swim spa emerges at the top of the list for each installation. Different users prioritize varying elements of the swim spa experience, and body size and type of strokes also play roles in interfacing with the interior dimensions of different brands.

It would make sense based on size alone that TruSwim would have the better current. Turbo Pro has smaller output and intake grates, and they are concentrated together in that rectangle shape. TruSwim's output and intake cover the entire front of the spa, probably nearly 30 square feet. If noise is all the same to you and you prefer the TruSwim current, the decision sounds like it is made right there. All the other factors are peripheral to those two things, in my view, swim quality and noise.

Plenty of little swim spa tidbits that we haven't covered here are archived in my notes, but forum threads like this aren't designed to cover every item that might be applicable to the gamut of shoppers, so I've tried to respond mainly to points that have come up. One of those bits of information that I feel sure is saved in my notes somewhere is about the type of paint you can use to recoat Trex or other materials like Monarch poly of which the typical swim spa cabinetry is made. That poly fades in the sun and can even warp over time. Some people have reported problems with Master Spas cabinetry warping in as few as three years, but hopefully PDC's Trex will last much longer. Replacing the cabinet, as you suggested, is the best way to refresh the look, but you can get special paint to adhere if fading is a problem, and it seems I recall that the paint needs to be heat resistant to stand up to the sun exposure. If you are interested in those details, please let me know, and I will search for the specifics of what properties the paint needs to have.

It would be unfair for me to call Endless Pools E Series "loud." The Endless Pools E Series I tested was on the border of being quiet enough yet just over the line that I felt I would have been unhappy with the noise, particularly in combination with its current problems. The E Series created some sort of popping or drumming noise to my hearing which was maybe from the way the water flowed so directly, and that drumming was louder than any motor noise. I felt the Master Spas Challenger was quieter, enough that I could have tolerated it long term, but again I ultimately decided against Challenger due to current drag. The EP had a high-pitched whine that the Challenger did not, and I have been told the high-pitched whine comes from all swim spa wave machines that are driven by hydraulics, so that would include all SwimEx spas, PDC's TruSwim line, and all EPs. Challenger and Badu Turbo Pro units do not incorporate any hydraulics, thus the absence of whine noise with them. So, as I understand, you have listed the brands in order of noise level, quietest to loudest as you perceived them, as follows:

1. Master Spas Challenger
2. Badu Turbo Pro (close second)
3. Endless Pools E Series
4. PDC TruSwim
5. Endless Pools Originals

This is incredibly helpful, and thank you again! Low noise is one of my non-negotiables, and I appreciate having someone like you wet test all these models and compare them.

It sounds like you're the future owner of a PDC TruSwim, and you must be excited! Actually I'm excited for you! You're going to love that spa and hopefully get a couple of decades of use out of it, maybe more.

@Tom If you are still with us, I think these reports from @Mike Wrob should help direct your focus to a PDC TruSwim for serious consideration for your swim spa project. Pricing will be higher than the Master Spas Trainer you were quoted, but the TruSwim current is so superior that it may be just the thing you need to support you in actually being able to swim for extended periods. At your height of six feet, I would not recommend going any smaller than the TruSwim TSX17 that @Mike Wrob tested yesterday. Having a good, drag-free current will mean the world to you embarking upon your swimming exercise journey. If you think that you and your wife will primarily prefer to do aerobics or treadmill work in the water rather than swimming, check out the standing water exercises that SwimEx publishes on their YouTube channel (which can be done in any pool with a waterline at chest level or below), and also consider the two-person Endless Pools Originals setup, pictured below, which comes with two propulsion units and can be fitted with two treadmills as well.

@Aglitter I think that’s how I would rank them as far as sound level. I didn’t listen to them side by side and I suspect our memory for sound level is pretty malleable. In addition, conditions were different for each observation. For example the Badu was outside while my other tests were inside. I tested the TruSwim first thing in the morning, the E700 was 3.5 hours later after interstate driving the whole way. I can tell you the following with certainty:

• The Master Spas Challenger and Badujet Turbo Pro are definitely quieter than the others. I think the Challenger is the quieter of the two.
• The TruSwim TSX17 and the Endless Pools E700 are the next step up in noise level and very similar. I think the E700 is a little quieter.
• My original Endless Pool is definitely louder than the others. I’ve got the hydraulic pump 30-40 feet from the pool, otherwise it would be even worse. The pool is 15-20 feet from our bedroom. My partner, who is a light sleeper, asks me to keep the window closed when I swim in the morning or else it wakes her up.

The Badujet rep said that the San Jaun Sea Isle would not work with the Turbo Pro because of the little step downs on the wall. He said most fiberglass pools have the same issue.

Facebook must be tracking what I’m doing because this ad showed up in my feed, Plungie Pools. It’s a 10 x 20 concrete pool and could even be used above ground. I don’t know that they could cast an opening for the Turbo Pro, but I suspect they could.

@Mike Wrob Thanks for the concrete pool tips. I am always looking for unique, freestanding pool ideas and have over the years run across several brands that offer precast concrete. On further inspection, the Plungie pool and other precast, concrete pool forms I have researched seem to have poor longevity reviews. They look adorable, and the concept sounds ideal, but people deal with chipping, cracking, and even worse problems once they are set. If it is a low-hassle experience someone wants with a swim spa, a TruSwim is a universe ahead of precast concrete pool products. Concrete products that are cast on site, even freestanding concrete pools cast on site, tend to fare much better. Sadly, plenty of unsuspecting customers continue to purchase these portable concrete products because, as we've discussed throughout this thread, unbiased reviews of swim spas and freestanding pools are hard to find. You must search all the potential places for online reviews to learn about some of these flaws.

Simply based on my own swim spa testing as well as videos with live audio online, I can believe that your lineup of noise levels is accurate. We know that hydraulic products will usually be louder than jets in a swim spa, though I am sure exceptions exist. A PDC rep told me that his Synergy and Summit swim spa lines with jets are quieter than TruSwim because TruSwim has a hydraulic motor. That was a smart move to put your hydraulic Endless Pools motor 30 to 40 feet away. People are doing that with the old Badu Jet motors as well to try to reduce noise, and at least some of those are hydraulic. When I swim, my sessions are usually an hour, and over that length of time with my sensitive hearing, it's just not feasible for me to purchase a swim spa with a running level over the 70 decibel range. I wish swim spa companies would give decibel rankings on their swim spas, but even much larger industries like the vacuum cleaner industry rarely do this even though it's an important factor for the purchaser when dealing with a product that could impact hearing.

If @Tom can deal with a noise level higher than the Master Spas Challenger, he'll get a better current from the TruSwim, but if noise is his priority, I don't know what to suggest because anything in the Master Spas H2X line will promote sinking feet during the swim. A stronger swimmer might not feel it so much, but someone just getting back into swimming might have trouble with it. He might want to try TruSwim's jetted Synergy or Summit lines to see if they have a better current than the Challenger. Whether he could tolerate an air-injected jet stream as well as Challenger's airless jets remains to be seen. I still think the Artesian TidalFit might be a good option for him, as well. They specialize in dual temp units, and their premium therapy seats would offer his wife that warmer soaking temperature she was hoping to get.

It is still sinking in that I have a quality review on the Badu Turbo Pro now thanks to you. You truly have made my year by doing this. Thank you, thank you!

For anyone still following this thread, the Master Spas dealer in Oklahoma City, named Aqua Haven, currently has a Master Spas Michael Phelps Force swim spa model set up for west testing. I plan to travel there to test it on Monday and will try to report back. This comment applies to the week of February 13, 2023. The Michael Phelps line is the only swim spa line Master Spas offers that is powered by propeller. We have discussed the MP swim spa line extensively in previous comments, and I'll be interested to know if the pros and cons in the reviews I've read apply to my own wet testing experience.

Looking forward to yiur review!

Although my PDC TruSwim is on order, I too am curious as to how it goes for you.

@Mike Wrob My opinion after testing a Master Spas Michael Phelps (MP) Force swim spa, the smallest in the lineup, is that you picked the better swim spa going with the PDC TruSwim based on everything we have discussed—with the one exception being noise level, as the MP Force is very quiet while swimming in the water at about 30% power, a leisurely pace suitable for most fitness-level swimmers. The PDC TruSwims are presumably louder than the MP swim spas based on live audio footage and other reviews. Following is a more complete report listed by topic of my wet testing experience on February 13, 2023, at Aqua Haven in Oklahoma City, assisted by the helpful sales representative Justin:

• Wet testing a Master Spas MP swim spa is a rare opportunity—I’m not sure if the Master Spas headquarters maintains a full range of models for wet testing as do other manufacturers at their respective headquarters, and my rep wasn’t sure about this either. Master Spas has an extensive dealer network, so the company relies primarily on local dealers to have swim spa models set up for wet testing. Despite that, it is still more common to see an H2X Trainer or Challenger set up for wet testing in a local dealer’s showroom than it is an MP. The prices are a little higher for the MP line than the H2X models, so that is probably why. The MP model I tested was used, so the dealer wanted to clearance it and had set it up for wet testing to help with that. Lead time is 52 days for new units down from a year during the pandemic, so that’s great news.
• The MP swim spa was very quiet while swimming with head underwater–The most impressive element to me of my wet test was how quiet the MP swim spa was when my ears were underwater. Silent wouldn’t be the correct description, but the noise was very low while underwater and easily tolerable for the most discerning of noise-sensitive people like myself. I did not hear any high-pitched whine like I heard during my test of an Endless Pools acrylic model nor such as is reported to exist on PDC TruSwims and SwimEx Originals and Tritons. I even feel the MP noise level while swimming was a touch quieter than the Challenger, though the rep wasn’t sure he agreed with me on that. In my opinion, both the Challenger and MP swim spa lines are sufficiently quiet enough to be safe for the ears while running at low to moderate speeds. When standing upright in the MP, I could hear more of the motor noise than when underwater, but it was plenty quiet in or out of the water at speeds around 30% to 40%. Once the swim generator was revved up to 50% and beyond, the noise level became significantly higher, but few people would be using an MP swim spa to train at those speeds on a daily basis. The top level of 100% was so powerful that it was like a huge therapy jet while standing with my back to it.
• Dead water zone exists and wave quality was mediocre—It is true as other reviewers have noted that there is a dead zone on top of the MP swim current, but this exists only within the first two feet or so from the wall to where the current surfaces. Previous reps had told me the “dead zone is by design and you are supposed to swim through it,” but I found it difficult to swim in the dead zone, and my rep today said the ideal positioning is to swim farther back to catch point where the current surfaces. The problem is that swimming farther back can sometimes make the feet touch the steps and the fingertips brush the concave curves of the walls, at least on the Force model. The Signature model is slightly longer with a different step configuration so would allow more foot room to swim farther back. The model I tested had a low water level, so fully filled, one would need to swim even farther back than I did. As to the wave quality, I found the MP to be more turbulent overall than the Challenger. At speeds of 40% and higher, the turbulence was great enough that it made side breathing difficult and the overall swim experience annoying. Endless Pools still reigns king of the smooth current, and MP isn’t even in the same league. Someone looking for a pleasant current alone among Master Spas offerings should probably drop back to a Challenger. With a few tweaks, I feel Master Spas could create a smoother current without a dead zone, similar to what other manufacturers are doing, that would greatly improve the MP line. Due to turbulence, I could only recommend the MP line for swimming at a leisurely pace where the turbulence would be lowest.
• Foot drag was minimal but present—Although the Challenger seemed to have a more tolerable wave quality than the MP, the MP definitely wins over the Challenger and Trainer when it comes to amount of foot drag. Sadly, foot drag is still slightly perceptible on the MP, particularly on freestyle. If the four intake vents located at front were positioned higher, a bullnose added at back to split the current to the sides, and the walls made straight instead of concave, it is possible this issue might be improved. Ideally, intake vents should be located high at back for the best design.
• Reliability and other quick notes—I asked today’s rep if he had seen warranty issues with the touchpads going out, and he said he was not aware of any problems with that issue. The touchpads weren’t easy to operate, the electronic input “buttons” were too small for average-sized fingers, and I had to press hard several times to get the input to register for some adjustments. The used model I tested had several gouges out of the soft step liner material, so for best longevity, I would recommend skipping that add-on feature. The acrylic shell and the cabinet material both seemed sturdy and in excellent condition even on a used model, so I would expect good wear from those. The therapy jets were fun, but the seating was a bit ridiculous in terms of depth. At a height of 5’7”, which not far from an average height for a woman in the USA, I had to crunch my body a lot and slide forward in the seats to get my back and neck properly positioned in relationship to the therapy seat jets. It is almost as if the therapy seats were made for a child. A person much taller than myself simply wouldn’t fit into the configuration. The therapy jets were louder than the swim wave generator, similar to what you might hear with jets in an average hot tub. Artesian still holds the top prize, in my opinion, for the quietest therapy jets on the market. Pricing on an MP swim spa was surprisingly competitive. As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, many swim spa manufacturers engage in regional pricing, so the price of a new MP swim spa in the smaller city where I wet tested it was about the same as the going rate for a Challenger in the larger city where I live. Some dealers are willing to deliver out of area, so it may pay to shop around.

The takeaway is that I wanted to love the MP swim spa and be able to select it for my backyard swim spa project, but I think I’m still on the hunt. The biggest complaint for me is the foot drag. I still don’t feel Master Spas has the current perfected enough to make the MP experience meet my standards. The Badu Turbo Pro is still on my list, though, and after @Mike Wrob provided his excellent review, I am eager to get to Florida and try it some day for myself. Thanks again for your help @Mike Wrob! I hope you get many wonderful years of use out of your PDC TruSwim, and congratulations on making a great choice!

@Aglitter. I’ve come to the conclusion that swim spas are like treadmills. There is no way a treadmill can 100% replicate actual running. That being said, some are better than others. The same with swim spas. I think you have to be willing to accept some compromise. In return, you get unmatched convenience and enjoyment of the pool for other activities. It may also be that some of the things that bother you in a test swim may be things you can easily adjust to over time. That being said, there are also issues that will never improve no matter how much you use the spa. I think that space/clearance issues will never improve no matter how much you use the pool. Certain current characteristics I feel can be gotten used to. A too narrow current is probably too much to ever adjust to. Noise level will depend on the individual. Are earplugs an option for you? I hate to see you dismiss an otherwise viable choice.

I’ve had my original endless pool for 24 years. I purchased it because I moved to an area where there are no year round swimming options or organized swimming programs. At the time I was near the end of my participation in events. I did however do a few triathlons and open water swims and felt I was very well prepared. Not at quite the same level as when I swam with a Masters swim group, but not far from it. I have zero regrets about my purchase and look forward to my Truswim.

I will be receiving my Truswim the second week of March. After I use it for a period of time, I will report back with my satisfaction level.

Thanks for the encouragement, @Mike Wrob. As I was testing the Master Spas Michael Phelps Force swim spa today, I was thinking that if anyone gave me one for free, I'd take it, as the foot drag was slight enough that I could probably adjust to it over time. It was definitely the best swim experience of any wet test I have done thus far. However, to spend what would be probably at least $60K USD by the time the project was said and done, the opportunity cost is real. For $60K, it's possible I could get a custom pool built with a Badu Turbo Pro which might not only be just as quiet as the MP--based on your review--but also possibly completely eliminate the foot drag. I definitely haven't given up on the dream! I think a round pool would be ideal for the way the Badu Turbo Pro current circulates.

I do wear earplugs on many occasions and frequently carry full-fledged, over-the-head hearing protection headphones with me as well for various activities (David Clark with the gel earpad accessories are my favorites), so I am familiar with their use, but even the best earplugs only attenuate about 25 decibels at best in practice, and wearing ear plugs for as long as I would normally swim at a time which is about an hour can make me nauseous. I tolerate the over-the-head hearing protection head sets much better for long periods, and clearly you cannot swim with those. As long as an option exists like the Badu Turbo Pro that would be quiet enough and drag-free enough to satisfy my needs, I think I'll keep up the hunt.

My hope is that some of the manufacturers we have discussed in this thread might find this information some day and use it to improve their swim spas. The idea of an at-home swimming "treadmill," as you put it, is fabulous, and I feel that so many of these companies are just a feature or two away from perfecting their products to make them attractive to a much larger market. Noise and/or drag-free current seem to be the critical sticking points for many manufacturers.

So your TruSwim is almost here then, just a month out! How exciting!!! I've been wondering if someone would come up with an after-market noise reduction package on a TruSwim to eliminate that hydraulic whine. A rep from SwimEx told me that several customers had done something similar with the SwimEx paddlewheel models to reduce noise, so I know it's possible.

PDC Review

I received my PDC TSX17 swim spa and Fiji hot tub last week and thought I’d share my experience.

I chose the Truswim for the quality of the swim experience and it has not disappointed. It is superior to my original Endless Pool in every way. The current is much smoother. It also a wider current as well, very easy to swim in. It is also very quiet. Although not a problem in my endless pool, the protrusions on the sides of the other pools I tested detracted from the swim experience. I have no space/clearance issues with the Truswim.

There are no PDC dealers in my area, so I purchased direct from the factory. This meant I was responsible for unloading and setting up the swim spa and hot tub. This was not difficult but did require a fair amount of legwork on my end. PDC has good literature and videos. They are helpful for the most part but hesitant to step outside of their comfort zone. Two examples: If you watch their installation video, they show cutting a hole in the bottom of the cabinet for the power leads to come in. I asked them to do that at the factory for me and they wouldn’t do it. One side of my swim spa was going up against a deck and I asked them to cut the panels on that side horizontally in case I ever had to remove them, again they declined to do that. Other than that, they were good.

Communication was good and adjusting of the delivery date for my needs was easy.

My installation location was at the end of a 1/4 mile long gravel road. None of their transportation providers wanted to go to the end of this road so we had to meet them and transfer the swim spa to another trailer to take it to the final location. We used a construction style forklift to lift it off the truck and put on a trailer used for transporting a backhoe. After driving the trailer to my place, we lifted the swim spa off with the same forklift and set it on some 3” schedule 40 pvc pipes. The 5 of us then pushed about 75 ft to the final location. It took a little elbow grease but wasn’t too bad because the ground was mostly level. I think it would be a challenge to go uphill. I had no significant problems or issues.

Other points:

I opted for the End2End roll cover for the swim spa. I think it is the lesser of evils available. It is still heavy to roll on and off. I find it easiest to do while in the pool and impossible to do from the side like they show in the videos.

I am concerned the heaters may be undersized. Not as much an issue in the swim spa as is in the hot tub. The heater raises the tub about 3 degrees an hour with the cover on. With the cover off it maintains temperature but can not raise it in 60 degree weather. I worry it may fall behind in cooler weather.

The control panel is a little hard to see for an older adult who needs reading glasses, especially since I don’t wear reading glasses in the pool. I also think it would make more sense to have the control panel up by your head when you’re swimming rather than at your feet. I look forward to programming some workouts as I gain more experience.

Overall I am very happy with my purchase and am convinced I made the right choice in choosing the TruSwim.

@Mike Wrob We could have lined up a television documentary team if you had let us know your unloading project was going to be so interesting! I'm glad you got the job done safely. It sounds from your description as though PDC would have worked with local crews to arrange setting your spas if your road had been paved. I'm so sorry they left all the work on you to arrange that simply due to a gravel road. I personally don't see how that should have made much of a difference. These big equipment providers work on dirt and construction sites all the time. Everyone seems too concerned about liability these days, which is probably the reason PDC shifted the responsibility for setting the spas across a gravel road and also probably the reason they wouldn't make any cuts or turn any panels for you out of the standard factory design. It would be easy for someone to come back and sue them for a job done not quite to specification, but I really wish they offered more customization options with a good legal contract, perhaps, to protect themselves. Hiring good labor is becoming more difficult these days, too, and it could be PDC didn't trust its own employees to follow precise instructions for a non-standard build, who knows?

It seems puzzling that a PDC spa which has a large distribution system set up not only in the northern parts of the USA but also Canada would be letting any hot tub leave its factory unable to raise water temperature in weather below 60⁰ F. Wintertime is the prime hot tubbing season for most users. I'd be back on the phone with PDC complaining if it were my delivery, because that sounds completely unacceptable to me.

During my last wet test on the Master Spas Michael Phelps Force swim spa, I also felt that the digital control panel was too small, in my case not necessarily to see but to operate the tiny control touch points. For such an expensive piece of equipment, I feel the control panel should be vastly bigger and better. Many of these swim spa manufacturers use Balboa brand touch control pads, so the ability to select a different configuration must be limited because so many of these control pads on different brands of spas look exactly the same. It is also well-known that Balboa touch control pads tend to malfunction when in contact with moisture, so my guess is that PDC put the control pad toward the back to minimize water contact from splashy strokes at the front.

It's good to hear you are happy with the swim spa as a whole, and I'm especially glad for the sake of preserving your hearing and being more rested after your workouts that you finally have a quiet swim spa. Thanks so much for giving us an update! I was wondering about your project recently, as you'd said your delivery was scheduled for mid-March, so it's great to hear everything went well! I hope you can resolve the Fiji heater issue, because there is a chance it might be a factory defect that would respond to warranty servicing. It would seem to defy belief that any PDC hot tub could not climb temperature in weather down to least 10-below-zero degrees Fahrenheit which is a common daily winter temperature in northern parts of the USA and southern Canada where PDC hot tubs are commonly used.

On a different topic, I have been wanting to return to this thread for a few weeks and add observations about noise perception in the various swim spa brands discussed in this thread and also about the space requirements for the Badu Jet Turbo Pro unit. About the noise, anyone reading this thread as a whole will notice discrepancies in my comments about which swim spa brand is the "quietest." To clarify for anyone interested in the technicalities, my noise comments must be taken in context of whether one is standing outside the swim spa or has head underneath the water swimming and also the speed of the swim spa current. For example, I still think the post-2017 Endless Pools acrylic models have the quietest current on the market if you are standing outside of the spa, and this is due to the almost complete lack of turbulence in the current paired with good cabinet insulation around the motor. However, with head underwater at any speed, a high-pitched hydraulic whine we have discussed is audible, and the sheer power of the linear current itself flowing past the ears may create more aural discomfort for swimmers like myself with sensitive hearing than the more dispersed flows of jetted models. The Master Spas Michael Phelps Force seemed to me to be at least as quiet as the Master Spas Challenger at speeds below 50%, which is where the average swimmer would be using them, but at faster speeds, the MP Force, in my opinion, seemed to have more motor noise than the Challenger at higher speeds. The MP Force uses a hydraulic motor while the Challenger does not which may partly account for the difference, but the MP Force also reaches stronger top speeds than the Challenger 19D I tested, so some of the noise difference at max could be greater turbulence. The takeaway from this is that a shopper evaluating noise when wet testing different brands should focus on charting the perception of noise when underwater swimming at the pace typically expected.

About the Badu Jet Turbo Pro space requirements, I've posted repeatedly that I would like to see Artesian put a Turbo Pro into one of its acrylic swim spas to see what would happen, but after thinking more about @Mike Wrob's wet test review, I believe that the space required for the Turbo Pro may prohibit it from working well in such a small footprint. As noted above, the sweet spot for swimming is up to 6 feet back from the Turbo Pro outlet, and the dual-side intake design requires generous side surface berth for water to circulate back. A traditional acrylic or fiberglass swim spa shell would need to be atypically large in length and width to facilitate the Turbo Pro. This means that an on-site build would be more suited to the Turbo Pro, which is the application for which it was designed, anyway. Pre-built pools can only be so big before it is impossible to carry them by truck transport, and the Turbo Pro seems suited for a pool a little outside of those ideal transport dimensions.

In other news, the great public lap pool that I thought I might be able to start using appears to have been closed down by new owners of the gym where it was. Other lap pools exist in the area, but none as warm and clean as that one, I don't think. It is my opinion that the market for home swim spas is still largely untapped, so hopefully as research and development goes forward on this concept, one day we will have a better selection of brands that are getting everything right for a pleasant and affordable swim spa experience.

@Aglitter sorry to hear about your pool closing.

After talking with Badu about a San Juan pool, I don’t think you’ll find an acrylic or fiberglass pool to work with the Badu. They all have stepped sides and the Badu needs a vertical wall for mounting.

Because I was not working with a dealer, it was always the understanding that I would be responsible for unloading and setting in place. The delivery to the end of the road just added the second step of transferring to another trailer. In fact, for the hot tub, we just carried it the length of the road with the forklift. In the end it didn’t really add much extra work. I had intended to video the delivery, but since I was involved in it I didn’t really have the opportunity. The rolling of the swim spa on the pvc pipes is not unusual, I got the idea from several videos on YouTube.

As far as the heating capacity, I need to spend more time with the units to pass judgement.

Again, I can’t say enough about the quality of the current. I am extremely happy with it and that is the most important quality to me. I am out town but will be spending more time next week with the spa for more comments.

Questions for @Mike and @Aglitter at the end.

Wow. I happen to be in the market for a SwimSpa and this discussion is BY FAR the most informative and comprehensive. I have wet tested several models so far and to be of use my findings are listed below. I have listed them in order from best swim current (imho) to worst swim current. I will make other observations, but that is the rationale behind the order (I did not pay close attention to the noise, because I swim with ear plugs):

1) Original Endless Pools. Best calmest current. High number of settings to dial in speed. 25 I think and an easy to use remote. To me, CALM is the key. I am not a hard-core swimmer. The reasons I don't like this unit, however, are that the vinyl looks and feels cheap. The unit also seems like it would cost a lot to heat, compared to the well insulted drop-on-site units. Price is difficult to say given all the options.

2) E700. A decent current, but feels like a lot of current right at my head (as Aglitter predicted). Pushes water up my nose. This is a problem with many of the SwimSpas for me. I will start trying a nose plug, perhaps. I also don't like how the intake is right below the unit either. The original system with intake at the back seems to produce a much better current. This current is a non-trivial step down from the Original Series Endless Pool. The E700 also had the nice remote with 25 levels to fine tune current speed. I did not really notice the dragging feet down much, but I wasn't paying close attention and this was the first SwimSpa I tested; I hope to circle back and test it again, now that I've been in others. It also felt a bit cramped on the sides, but an E550 would probably solve that for me, and with my space requirements, I am most interested in a 15ft SwimSpa. I was quoted 43K for a E550.

3) H2X Challenger 15D. The current is not as good as the E700 (but close) and certainly not as good as the Original EP. However, there is a LOT of flexibility in "dialing in" the current. Do NOT be shy about physically changing the jet directions as part of this process. The high level of flexibility and independent control over the various jets sets (2 x 25 level and 1 x 2 levels if I recall), meant that I could get something that was reasonable. Still had a bit of the pushing water up my nose, strong current right at my head effect. I like that it was deeper at 60" than the Endless Pool and other models. Not a bad option for the price. Was quoted around 32K.

4) Michael Phelps Force swim. I was fortunate to test this right next to the H2X Challenger. It is probably a better current for most, but because I could not dial it in (it has many different current speeds, but you can not move the jets to change the direction and level as in the H2X), I found the H2X to be a bit superior. It was quite; even I noticed without paying attention to that feature in general. I also liked the space. But overall, I found it disappointing considering all the hype around this brand. I did not ask about price.

5) Hydropools AquaSport 17AX. Not a terrible current, but the worst of this bunch. Less ability to dial in and difficult to deal with the controls. It does have the nicest, calming blue lighted triangle to look at while swimming with your head down. The overall spacing and design was also very nice (quality felt superior to the E700 and H2X); the current just wasn't up to par. Was quoted around 34K, if I remember.

6) Jetted SwimSpas. I also tested TidalFit and Endless Pool jetted SwimSpas. These were terrible. Anything with air-injected jets should not even be called a SwimSpa.

ON MY LIST TO TEST SOON: Which now leaves two more I need to test. The SwimEx Paddle Wheel style model (on Monday!) and a PDC TruSwim which I am adding thanks to Mark and Aglitter! I just don't have any convient place to get to one (no place in CA nor TX nor MA nor NH; I go to all those places and still can't test a PDC TruSwim... crazy!).

@Mark, Can I confirm you thought the PDC TruSwim had a better current than the Original EP?

And @ Aglitter, Can you provide a bit more information about the PDC TruSwim wet testing options in South Carolina and Virigina?

THANK YOU both enormously. I hope my reviews provided a bit of value to this forum as a way to pass it forward for other potential buyers.

Sincerely,

Mike

Questions for @Mike and @Aglitter at the end.

Wow. I happen to be in the market for a SwimSpa and this discussion is BY FAR the most informative and comprehensive. I have wet tested several models so far and to be of use my findings are listed below. I have listed them in order from best swim current (imho) to worst swim current. I will make other observations, but that is the rationale behind the order (I did not pay close attention to the noise, because I swim with ear plugs):

1) Original Endless Pools. Best calmest current. High number of settings to dial in speed. 25 I think and an easy to use remote. To me, CALM is the key. I am not a hard-core swimmer. The reasons I don't like this unit, however, are that the vinyl looks and feels cheap. The unit also seems like it would cost a lot to heat, compared to the well insulted drop-on-site units. Price is difficult to say given all the options.

2) E700. A decent current, but feels like a lot of current right at my head (as Aglitter predicted). Pushes water up my nose. This is a problem with many of the SwimSpas for me. I will start trying a nose plug, perhaps. I also don't like how the intake is right below the unit either. The original system with intake at the back seems to produce a much better current. This current is a non-trivial step down from the Original Series Endless Pool. The E700 also had the nice remote with 25 levels to fine tune current speed. I did not really notice the dragging feet down much, but I wasn't paying close attention and this was the first SwimSpa I tested; I hope to circle back and test it again, now that I've been in others. It also felt a bit cramped on the sides, but an E550 would probably solve that for me, and with my space requirements, I am most interested in a 15ft SwimSpa. I was quoted 43K for a E550.

3) H2X Challenger 15D. The current is not as good as the E700 (but close) and certainly not as good as the Original EP. However, there is a LOT of flexibility in "dialing in" the current. Do NOT be shy about physically changing the jet directions as part of this process. The high level of flexibility and independent control over the various jets sets (2 x 25 level and 1 x 2 levels if I recall), meant that I could get something that was reasonable. Still had a bit of the pushing water up my nose, strong current right at my head effect. I like that it was deeper at 60" than the Endless Pool and other models. Not a bad option for the price. Was quoted around 32K.

4) Michael Phelps Force swim. I was fortunate to test this right next to the H2X Challenger. It is probably a better current for most, but because I could not dial it in (it has many different current speeds, but you can not move the jets to change the direction and level as in the H2X), I found the H2X to be a bit superior. It was quite; even I noticed without paying attention to that feature in general. I also liked the space. But overall, I found it disappointing considering all the hype around this brand. I did not ask about price.

5) Hydropools AquaSport 17AX. Not a terrible current, but the worst of this bunch. Less ability to dial in and difficult to deal with the controls. It does have the nicest, calming blue lighted triangle to look at while swimming with your head down. The overall spacing and design was also very nice (quality felt superior to the E700 and H2X); the current just wasn't up to par. Was quoted around 34K, if I remember.

6) Jetted SwimSpas. I also tested TidalFit and Endless Pool jetted SwimSpas. These were terrible. Anything with air-injected jets should not even be called a SwimSpa.

ON MY LIST TO TEST SOON: Which now leaves two more I need to test. The SwimEx Paddle Wheel style model (on Monday!) and a PDC TruSwim which I am adding thanks to Mark and Aglitter! I just don't have any convient place to get to one (no place in CA nor TX nor MA nor NH; I go to all those places and still can't test a PDC TruSwim... crazy!).

@Mark, Can I confirm you thought the PDC TruSwim had a better current than the Original EP?

And @ Aglitter, Can you provide a bit more information about the PDC TruSwim wet testing options in South Carolina and Virigina?

THANK YOU both enormously. I hope my reviews provided a bit of value to this forum as a way to pass it forward for other potential buyers.

Sincerely,

Mike

@HU-700553381

It can be difficult comparing units when you're spending 15-30 minutes testing them and it could be days or months before you test the next one. However I own both an original Endless Pools unit and a PDC Truswim TSX 17. I have had the Endless Pool unit for 24 years and just got the Truswim in March of this year. Since I now swim regularly in both, I am very familiar with them.

When I first purchased the EP, I had the above ground version with the vinyl liner. A few years later I moved and built a concrete and tile pool in ground and reused all the components in it. I've used it regularly for 24 years, that's why I didn't feel guilty about purchasing a swim spa for our second house. I don't think much has changed and suspect that the unit you looked at has essentially the same quality current as mine. I'm sure the speed control is different. Mine has a knob at the head of the pool that you just turn up or down to adjust the speed. Dead simple and infinitely adjustable, but not necessarily repeatable.

I much prefer the current of the Truswim. The current is wider and smoother. It is also quieter than the EP. The control is down by my feet which I don't like. It can also be hard to read when your goggles are foggy. However it is nice to be able to program in different workouts. I have no issues with the increments between speeds.

If I could only have one, I would definitely choose the Truswim.

@Mike Wrob Good to hear you are settling in and really enjoying your TruSwim! I'm curious if you ever got your PDC hot tub to raise temperature. Thanks again so much for sharing the results of your testing!

@HU-700553381 I had to laugh at your declaration that an air-injected "swim spa" does not deserve the name, as I agree. My observation is that the air-injected units are sold mostly to families with children who like to splash around in them. This demographic is actually a large part of the "swim spa" market, and Master Spas sells a ton of air-injected units for people who don't actually need to swim in them.

Also, I appreciate that you pointed out how that Master Spas is manufacturing deeper swim spa options than Endless Pools. EP has the current generator down perfect since the 2017 redesign, but they need a longer acrylic unit to allow the swimmer to back off from the force of the wave, a deeper unit to allow deep water aerobics or treading exercise, and a current intake high at the back to solve foot drag. If EP would solve those issues and also muffle the hydraulic whine, they would have a winning swim spa.

As to testing a PDC TruSwim Swim Spa anywhere other than headquarters, you would be going to any number of regional dealerships that happen to have one set up at the moment. You will need to contact PDC directly, ask to speak to your regional representative, and find out which dealerships have wet models set up right now. You will want to assess all wet testing options nationwide and test a model as close to the actual one you are interested in as possible. If travel cost is prohibitive between SwimEx and PDC TruSwim, test the TruSwim first and see if you haven't found your swim spa. There are a number of reasons including cost why TruSwim will probably win out over a SwimEx for a residential application, detailed more in above comments.

Update: 7/4/2023

So I tested a SwimEx paddle wheel design yesterday. I think it was a 500 series model. The current "quality" was excellent. The best I've tested so far. However, it was also very weak even on level 99; and I am a moderate swimmer at best. Perhaps the 600 series would offer a stronger current. There are other problems here. This is not a drop-in unit at all. Requires essentially a complete pool build. It will cost you almost 3x the other units by the time you are done. I suspect the cost of heating and maintenance are also far higher than the drop-in units. At that point you may as well build a pool and add the BaduJet Turbo Pro as mentioned earlier (though I have not tried such a unit).

So in order with the best, most stable, least turbulent current at the top: 1) SwimEx, 2) EP Original, 3) EP E700, 4) H2X Challenger 15D , 4) Michael Phelps Force Swim, 5) Hydropools AquaSport 17AX

HOWEVER, considering all aspects (current quality and strength, build quality and warranty, cost, practicality, etc.) here is where I am (I think!) with the best at the top:

1) EP E700 (but I really need to test it once more)

2) H2X Challenger 15D

3) Michael Phelps Force Swim

4) Hydropools AquaSport 17AX

5) EP Original

6) SwimEx

So that leaves the PDC TruSwim. Which does not look smooth in the videos, but I am hoping against hope Mike W's testing is correct.

If it is helpful to others looking to wet test the PDC TruSwim (not the weaker Summit series) at a location other than the headquarters, I've found a "Outdoor Living Wholesale" dealership in Dulles, next to the international airport (so that is pretty convenient). Just use the PDC TruSwim "where to buy button" and put Maryland. There is also a "HYDRA" hot tubs and pools dealer with one in Columbia, SC.

I won't be able to test the PDC TruSwim until late August or early September. I will report back after that. If anyone else wants to comment on the quality of the TruSwim current, however, I'd really appreciate more first-hand observations especially in comparison to the other options.

Just because a dealer sells PDC TruSwim swim spas does not mean that they will have one set up as a wet model for testing. For instance, I live near the Dallas, Texas, area, and a dealer here sells TruSwims; they even have one on their showroom floor, but it is empty and dry. You will need to contact your regional representative or the individual dealers to confirm which dealership has a model set up for wet testing. Keep in mind also that a wet model set up one week at anything but PDC headquarters may not be there the next.

With all respect, while I'm really glad you had an opportunity to test a SwimEx paddlewheel model, if your testing experience was the first time that you learned that this model does not come with its own exterior cabinet and is much more expensive than other brands that do, then I fear you have may have also missed lots of other information that has already been discussed at length in this thread. I know this thread is quite long, but perhaps you would pick up even more valuable information for this expensive purchase by rereading.

Everyone has their own order of criteria important to them in a swim spa purchase, but even so, after examining as many videos and reviews as I could find as well as wet testing various brands, I think there may be some overriding factors that you should reconsider in numbering your list. First, it appears that the Hydropool's "AccuFlo" swim jets, as they call them, are air-injected. Not only is this going to provide a weaker current overall with just 2 swim jets per spa, it will also create foaming turbulence during your swim, thus reducing the length of time you would find a swim comfortable. Hydropool is not a brand that comes up regularly among discussions online I have been able to find about serious swim training, and I think Hydropool shouldn't even be on your list if you plan to use your swim spa for swimming. To place it above SwimEx in any measures except for price and cabinet convenience is astonishing.

Second, the Endless Pools E700 has a serious issue with intake current drag at the foot level. Everyone I have heard about who compared an EP Original to any EP acrylic far preferred the EP Original for serious swim training. If you consider an EP for serious swimming, it should be the Original regardless of the inconvenience of the modular construction.

Price aside, I would put the quality of the Master Spas MP Force swim spa above that of the H2X Challenger at levels below half strength. At high speeds, the H2X is less turbulent and probably edges out the MP Force for that sole reason. Both of these lines are options for serious swimming, though the return current still creates drag in both, so beware.

Finally, it is interesting to me that you found the SwimEx current to be below your need for speed even while maximized out. I have certainly observed in multiple videos that the SwimEx current required a high speed with lots of turbulence for even for what appeared to be moderate speeds of swimming, but I would never have guessed the current would max out below the level of competition swimming and makes me wonder if the unit you tested was defective. The Master Spas H2X series offers a 17-foot-long unit with an additional motor for the needs of fast, competitive swimmers, so perhaps you should look into that if you want a lot of variability at the high end of the speed range.

@Aglitter I think the issue with maintaining temperature with the lid off is a problem with any electric hot tub. Since 50 amps seems to be the maximum size breaker people want to mess with, you are limited on the size of the heater that can be used when all the pumps are running. The only solution is to go with a gas heated tub.

@Mike Wrob . I have enjoyed this whole thread and found it very helpful. I have a queston for Mike about the hot tub portion of your TruSwim. What do you mean about the Fiji Hot Tub? Is that addition to the TruSwim TSX17? Also, could you tell us what you ended up paying for it? Did you consider the TSX219 with the built in hot tub? It has the 14" swim area, maybe that would be too short?

Thank you to erveryone for this very helpful thread!!

@raquelt5 I looked at the TSX219 but didn't consider it seriously. The only reason to get it instead of separate units is to save space, and I have plenty of space. You don't save any money or on electrical requirements and both the swim section and hot tub section are cramped compared to the individual units.

Thank you @Mike Wrob. All of this helps me. Can you share what you paid for them? i am going to get pricing, but am wondering if price is negotiable.

@raquelt5 I found their pricing to be very competitive so I did not try to negotiate. It did not seem like it would be negotiable anyway. I think pricing is going to depend on where you live because delivery is included in the pricing.

@Mike Wrob thank you

@Aglitter. A few quick thoughts:

I had a good sense of the non-drop-in style of the SwimEx and all associated complications prior to testing. Seeing it in person only reaffirmed that and it seemed worth reiterating for readers of the forum.

I called the actual PDC dealers I mentioned for wet testing to confirm availability. They all seemed to indicate they keep these open for wet testing regularly, but calling each before a visit is still a good idea. I am hoping to wet test a PDC at the start of September in Washington DC.

The problem with the modular design of the Original EP is that the cost to heat is nearly 3x to 4x that of the E700. The owner of my test unit said they added roughly $100 per month to keep the Original EP heated. Maintenance costs are a large consideration for me and that is why it fell near the bottom of my overall list. But, as noted, it has the second best "quality" of current of all the models I've tested. Still need to test the PDC. The Original EP is also quite expensive these days.

@raquelt5 Did you test a PDC truswim? Have you tested others? Any thoughts on how the current quality compares? I am still trying to get more opinions on this. Thanks in advance for any information.

@HU-700553381 With all respect, so many of the topics you touched on in your latest comment are discussed at length already in this thread, so I will not reiterate what would otherwise be relevant responses here other than to say I believe you would gain massive additional insight on this expensive purchase by re-reading the thread. I realize this is a long thread, but issues such as cabinet width, ease of staying centered, potential technical breakdowns you may encounter, level of drag of the return current, possible modifications, and so much more is covered here that is not reflected in your current commentary. If you like your PDC TruSwim wet test, you are probably fine to finalize that purchase as TruSwim stacks up strongly against the competition, but if you are considering another brand or a PDC swim spa model other than TruSwim, I recommend a re-read of the thread.

@HU-700553381 I look forward to your test swim. I’ve been going back and forth between my two pools more often lately and like the PDC more and more. It really has a nice smooth, wide current.

I finally tested the PDC 17' TruSwim at Outdoor Living Wholesale just outside of Dulles airport; this was convenient as I could stop by on a long layover on a flight to the east coast.

The quality of the current was very nice. At least as good as the Endless Pools e700, if not better. And a nice wide channel. 20 levels of speed. However, for me personally I found the foot drag (tendency to pull my feet down) even worse than the e700. This was especially true each time I came up for a breath. I do swim breast stroke (the side to side head motion of free-style can cause my ears trouble) and so it my be a "me" thing; I suspect it is far less of a problem for freestyle swimmers. For free-style swimmers that do not experience major problems with the foot drag, I suspect the PDC TruSwim is an excellent choice. It was also pretty noisy, however.

I am not sure where this leaves me. Most likely no Swim Spa at all :(. I'm going to circle back and test the H2X challenger again, I liked how I could aim a few of those jets to support my feet and minimize that foot drag problem. Maybe I can make that model work. I am also going to test the e700 once more paying closer attention to the foot drag problem. But I fear the best current (Original Endless Pools & SwimEx) come in impractical and costly devices (costly to both install and maintain). And the drop-box style may not work for me--crossing my fingers on revisiting the e700 and the H2X challenger (maybe the "new" 18 PRO has important improvements).

Thanks for all the information in this thread. I think I have now tested pretty much every option, so feel free to reach out with any questions.

@HU-700553381 I'm sorry to hear the PDC did not work out for you. I never had any issues with foot drag in any of the brands I tested. Maybe because I only swim freestyle or maybe I am used to it after 20 years of owning an Endless Pool. I'm curious if anyone who has foot drag issues has tried swimming in place in a river. I wonder if you would experience the same sensation. Although I found the Truswim to be slightly louder than the E700, it wasn't significantly louder. I tried them one day apart so I think I had a fair comparison. I do find my Trusim to be quieter than my original Endless Pool.

Good luck in your search.

"I am not sure where this leaves me. Most likely no Swim Spa at all." -- This was also my sentiment after a handful of wet tests and research that helped me cross off numerous other models first, before the need for wet testing.

Foot drag is a huge issue with the intake current of so many of these swim spas, as is noise. The BaduJet Turbo Pro still intrigues me and is supposedly on the quiet side, but it would require a full pool build, which you say you wish to avoid. These swim spas are so pricey that you might be pleasantly surprised at the difference it would cost to upgrade to a real lap pool, say 8' wide by 4' deep and anywhere from 40' to 75' long, or shorter with a BaduJet, but I understand the hesitance to commit to higher, long-term energy costs of a larger body of water.

Returning to the acrylic E-Series of Endless Pools is risky if you are concerned about intake current drag. Multiple reviewers have noted this severe drag in online reviews, and I tested an E-500 myself and would say the foot drag was possibly twice as bad with it versus a Master Spas H2X jetted or Michael Phelps propeller swim spa, both lines of which do have foot drag but may be tolerable if you are willing to learn to accommodate it.

Note that I do not believe adjusting jets will alter the feel of foot drag in the H2X because it is the intake current that is creating it. Jets might affect where the sweet spot for swimming falls near the front of the spa, but that is about it. The H2X was one of the quieter models I tested and would be tolerable at low speeds to most people concerning noise. Unless you have a need for great speed, the extra motor and higher cost of the H2X Pro model is probably not necessary. Intake current drag will be the same with it as any other H2X model and, naturally, greater at the higher speeds of which the Pro is capable.

When reviewing the material in this thread please remember, as mentioned in the comment above, that Mike has been swimming for 20 years in an Endless Pools Original that has intake low towards the back and has grown accustomed to that foot drag which has been noted by many people who use EP Originals. Also, EP Originals are very loud, so the PDC is much quieter to him by comparison. Comparing any swim spa to years of swimming in a traditional lap pool, such as perhaps you have done, is going to produce noise complaints at the very least, and as we have seen, often also drag complaints with the intake.

Simply from YouTube videos, I was able to determine that that a PDC TruSwim produces quite a bit of motor noise with speeds around 40%, so for you to say your wet test seemed loud is not surprising. All the SwimEx models are going to be loud, also. The one unknown, as I mentioned above, is the BaduJet Turbo Pro. Some people say it is quiet, but I have seen one YouTube video in which it is noisy. A traditional, in-ground lap pool is going to be almost irreplaceable at this point in the swim spa industry's development with lack of an affordable model that controls both noise and drag.

I have swum in rivers, springs, and lakes, but I cannot recall doing competition strokes in them for long distances. I have, however, swum hundreds of miles in traditional lap pools and always swim with my feet high, as is typical for competition swimmers, so the intake current drag in swim spas is noticeable to me, and I could rate them by model as to how bad they seem to be. A natural current alone wouldn't create foot drag. It is the intake return location that does this, usually too low and/or at the front when paired with limited tub length and depth. I wish that someday, some of these manufacturers will stumble across this thread and realize that there is a market waiting to be tapped if they can get the intake current and noise figured out.

I realize this thread is a little old, but I made a video about my PDC swim spa if anyone is interested. https://youtu.be/mdn6IEw89Xs?si=a5lGqImXPRU3F5sL

Thanks so much for that professional video review, Mike! Those are some spectacular views from your home, and that is quite a cliff you have as well. Looks like yours is the only home for miles. The TruSwim does sound relatively quiet at lower speeds in your video, same as some of the other brands which would be acceptable to most swimmers at low speed. I do think the speed that a swimmer primarily will be using makes a difference in whether or not swim spa noise is acceptable. The noise can ramp up quickly beginning at around 40% speed and higher in all the brands I personally tested. I'm thrilled to hear you are enjoying your new setup so much!

For anyone referencing this thread in the future, I wanted to point out something we haven't previously discussed about BaduJet, which is that they have a small model called "Turbo" that is narrower than the "Turbo Pro" Mike tested in Florida. The smaller Turbo circulates up to 1,100 gallons per minute while the larger Turbo Pro circulates up to 1,500 GPM. In my opinion, a pool should be built using the larger unit unless space in the pool is restrictive. The narrower design of the Turbo probably means that the return current is more likely to interfere with a smooth swimming stream, though a customer would want to test to make sure if considering using it. It was my impression the Florida BaduJet location only offers the wider Turbo Pro for testing, which we know from Mike's reviews is an impressive unit both in noise level and swimming current, at least in the medium-sized in-ground test pool.

Also, I wanted to thank Mike for his observation several months ago about larger hot tubs in general being difficult to raise temperature on just a 50 amp circuit, for which virtually all residential hot tubs are wired. Anyone shopping for a hot tub should keep this in mind if high temperatures are the goal and look for the smallest acceptable unit.

One more thought on hot tubs: most of us would be aware of the actor who recently passed away in his private home jacuzzi after experiencing some sort of medical emergency. This celebrity's high profile has spawned many opinion pieces in mainstream media about factors related to his built-in jacuzzi which may have contributed to his death (e.g., alone in the hot tub, in the hot tub after strenuous exercise, in the hot tub too long, pre-existing medical conditions that contraindicated hot tub use). Prior to this tragic incident, I had not been aware of so many precautions that one should take to remain safe in a home hot tub. I've heard of several hot tub owners who spend an hour in their unit most evenings! At least for starters, doctors usually advise anyone with a known heart condition to be cautious about spending more than a few minutes in a hot tub. Also, having a buddy system for using the hot tub is recommended.

Because a swim spa is kept at a lower temperature range, like high 70°F to low 80°F, using it alone wouldn't be as much of a concern. It is the approximately 100°F temperatures of a hot tub that can quickly expand blood vessels and induce medical emergencies in someone with a pre-existing heart condition, at least according to some of the medical professionals who have commented on the recent tragedy mentioned.

Thanks again for that great video, Mike! Fantastic work!

I am looking to put a swim spa in my garage. I havent read this entire thread but i dont see any mention of SwimSpaManufacturers.com why is that?

It’s a jet style swim spa which won’t provide adequate current for even slightly serious swimming.

Wow, what a thread. I feel like I should get a masters degree after reading this. Great job!

I am an architect in New England and am looking to install a swim spa at home below grade. Can you point me in a direction that would offer some guidance on this? My intent was to pour essentially an insulated concrete slab and retaining walls with a retractable cover. From there I have about a thousand questions:

• Should there be a sump with pump
• Are there other than the obvious electrical concerns such as GFI, shunt trip, clearances, etc.
• Would the additional insulation from this surround void the manufacturer's warranty
• Would the additional insulation from the surround improve or shorten the life of the pumps / heaters
• Would the vapor barrier of the surround create similar issues
• Would the vapor barrier of the surround create issues with the general function of the spa
• Are the manufacturer's specified clearances sufficient to perform annual maintenance
• Is it acceptable to provide an enclosure cover over the spa with a spa cover
• Is there a way to automate the spa cover with the removal of the enclosure cover

If there was any group that would have knowledge on this, it would have to be this one.

Thank you

Dave

I think those are definitely questions for the manufacturer. However what you're trying to do sounds pretty complex and it sounds like you would have a real challenge if you ever needed to replace any of the spa's components. If you're going to that trouble, why not just do an original endless pool or a Badujet installation?

Hi Dave, I do have information to share with you, and I'm trying to find time to post it all here on Houzz, so please keep checking back, as I will try to post information with illustrations. The number one thing I would say is that, yes, you do need to be concerned with more than just a grounded electrical connection. Equipotential bonding is the name of the game when it comes to safe pool installations. Ideally you would want to put a bonding grid underneath whatever unit you set down, and if you are doing this below grade with a cavity, you will ideally want bonding of the steel reinforcements inside the concrete in case water soaks through to the steel and also bonding of any conductive materials within 5 feet of the unit to prevent deaths in case of a short that cannot clear which may unknowingly energize your water. As Mike Wrob already commented, a SwimEx or Endless Pool Original (modular) are the two pre-manufactured units that best fit the scenario you described, however those may last up to 20 to 30 years before needing total replacement, and a BaduJet Turbo Pro installed in a regular in-ground gunite or fiberglass pool (from a high-quality producer like San Juan) would be basically a lifetime pool with perhaps mechanical upgrades over time. Knowing your use scenarios like how much you plan to actually swim in the swim current and how long you plan to live in the home would help in answering questions. I have more material to share with you to answer your questions, so please check back for an additional post from me. Thank you!

Thank you both Mike and Aglitter, very lucky to find this thread. Lot's of deep knowledge here.

Mike you said my plan was complex, I'm afraid to tell you the second half.

My intent is to construct the recessed concrete slab and retaining walls (insulated, waterproofed, and grounded) just above grade. The shell would be oversized in both directions by the manufacturer's work clearance requirements (I'm assuming 3'-0" or so in two directions) and the spa would be craned into place inside the shell. THis would provide me access to two sides of the spa from inside the shell, the ability to position the spa during installation, and the ability to service the spa once installed.

A removable wood deck would be installed around the spa to finish it and prevent falling into the shell. Again, 3'-0" or so on two sides and just to close the gap on the other two sides.

Here's the truly complex part. I want to cover the concrete shell with the spa inside with a rolling wooden deck. My thoughts are this deck would be motorized. My thoughts also are that this rolling deck would roll under the adjacent deck which is one step higher. This would put the spa out of site when not in use, cover the spa (of course a manufacturer designed spa cover would be sit on top of the spa and be had removed once the deck rolled off) for safety and heating, and kind of jst be neat.

Too much?

@S.T.O.N.E Thank you for answering additional questions by direct message yesterday. In considering which next steps to suggest for your swim spa project criteria, I think a numbers analysis might work based on an overall budget at or about $200,000 USD in 2024, as follows:

• $120,000 for a SwimEx 1000 S Model delivered to the street in front of your house with dual paddlewheel, added therapy jets (that you said your family wants), and added sprayed insulation. This number could dip to under $100K if you choose a smaller SwimEx model with no jets or insulation, and it could rise higher depending on other features you request like a deep well. You will probably want to avoid the entry-level Triton propeller model given your training needs as an Ironman triathlete, but a good next step is to set up a wet test appointment for you and your family, if possible, at the SwimEx headquarters in Fall River, Massachusetts, and swim in both the paddlewheel and propeller models to see which you prefer and whether the noise level of the swim wave generator is tolerable for you. SwimEx seems to be the best swim spa brand for you based on your criteria which is: 1) you want to crane-in a pre-built unit to a below-grade installation, which eliminates building an Endless Pools Original from components, 2) you want the pool to be open to the air when in use and last as long as possible, which eliminates the non-renewable acrylic shells of virtually all other triathlete-level swim spa brands including Master Spas and PDC that will degrade about twice as fast--max life of 20 years with some users getting not much more than 10--in your wet, cool Northeastern climate than the recoatable, fiberglass SwimEx shells, the 30-year lifespan fiberglass construction being one factor why pricing is so disparate to other brands, 3) SwimEx is the only brand to my knowledge at this time that comes standard without an exterior cabinet and is designed to be installed below grade in most instances; yes, it is possible that installing another brand that comes standard with a cabinet designed to be installed above grade in most instances could create the problems listed in 4 of your questions from your first comment, though the overall inferior longevity of acrylic-shell brands compared to the fiberglass SwimEx models would be the prime concern. Here is a photo of a SwimEx 1000 S Model:

• $15,000 optional fee for a SwimEx network provider to move the swim spa from the street to your prepared landing pad. This fee is in addition to the delivery cost included with your original quote of transporting the unit from the factory to the street nearest your house. In most cases, this additional fee would go toward a crane, but sometimes overhead barriers require the spa to be rolled in. This cost may be reduced if you contract a crane yourself, but make sure the crane meets or exceeds the distance and weight requirements of the spa. You don't want a crane crushing anyone's home. YouTube is full of videos of pool moving crane mishaps if you care to see one.
• $10,000 approximate electrical fee to upgrade your panel or run new conduit from the pole to meet your new amperage requirements and bond all horizontal conductive materials within 5 feet of the spa including the steel concrete reinforcements from your spa enclosure to the SwimEx's bonding lug. Overhead conductive materials may require bonding at beyond 5 feet per the NEC. The electrician usually needs to be a pool specialist in order to have the experience to meet the current NEC for pool and hot tub installation safety, and the electrician should be consulted prior to concrete pouring. Not all electricians will know to do this, but the safest swim spa and hot tub installations utilize a wire bonding grid placed underneath the unit. While this amount is an estimate, I think it is conservative based on prices I found to be typical in the Southwestern USA several years ago with upward adjustment for recent inflation, your location, your auto-retracting pool cover/deck, and the 3-dimensional nature of your enclosure with a large amount of steel reinforcement that will require bonding. Here is a photo of hardware such as may be used in pool bonding:

• $30,000 for excavation and creation of a swim spa enclosure with steel, gunite, interior waterproofing, and a drainage system. Being an architect, I am sure you must be aware of the potential for water seepage into below-grade structures, so if this will be an issue in your yard, you will need to install a rock bed or other drainage system leading from underneath the cavity to an approved drainage area, and you may also need to waterproof the interior walls of the cavity or take other measures to prevent vapor from accumulating. Note that your city's code may also require proof of a sanitary drainage location for the swim spa's twice-yearly drainage and cleaning schedule. As to your questions about clearances, SwimEx supervises these types of installations all the time and provides guide manuals for architects. See more here: swimex.com/design-resources-architects
• $25,000 for retractable swim spa cover. The most popular automated swim spa covers on the market currently are from Covana, and the cost of a Covana for a SwimEx 1000 S Model would probably run around $20K, so I believe $25K would be a conservative price for a custom-designed, retractable wood cover such as you have described. My question would be how you plan to deal with snow or rain, two weather conditions prominent in your area. If it were to be a rolling cover, debris from the top of the cover would inevitably contaminate the bottom of the cover which would then make its way into your swim spa water. A completely flat retractable swim spa cover may not be logistically possible given that you already have a deck in place. I might recommend thinking of making the swim spa installation only partially below grade and setting it a step up from your existing deck so that you can use a standard thermal cover for it and build a stationary deck around it to match your existing deck. A rolling wood cover over the thermal cover won't help that much with heat retention anyway and may exacerbate water retention in the cavity if it is less than watertight and prohibits evaporation. Here is an example of a semi-inground swim spa with matching deck surround:

That brings us up to a $200,000 USD build in 2024, and at some point there will be a question of "opportunity cost," which is the value of what you could have gotten for the same investment. A portable swim spa unit will rarely provide much return-on-investment to your home and may even decrease your home's value in some markets due to limited lifespan (30 years at most for a SwimEx, barely 20 for most other brands), while a built-in pool rarely decreases a home's value. You could probably hire a reputable local builder like Luxgen Pools which is based in Trumbull to create a custom, BaduJet Turbo Pro pool that would meet your training needs for the same or less than a SwimEx build. It appears that Luxgen does free consultations, so it might not hurt to have them on site to advise on your electrical bonding needs, if nothing more. As you know from my direct messages yesterday, I highly favor a covered swim spa installation for your Ironman triathlon training needs as well as the typical climate in your area to provide you the most cost-effective heating scenario for a year-round swim season. Here's an example of a covered SwimEx that has been designed with an indoor/outdoor feel with sliding doors, and please let me know if you have more questions that have not been satisfactorily addressed:

@Aglitter
@Mike Wrob
@HU-700553381

Holy smokes. What an incredible compilation you have created here! Wow!!! Super helpful! Thank you for all the effort you have put in here.

I am hoping you might share some of your opinions on best approach to a swim spa for my needs. I am looking for a hydrotherapy unit to be placed outside in the Pacific Northwest. Following a surgical error, I have had a weak and painful right leg for a few years (glutes and calf muscles most affected). I can walk but not far on land. I have limited hip flexion on the right so running in place in still or moving water is not doable. Can’t squat or sit normally. A lay down when most people would sit, keeping that hip pretty straight. I can do breast stroke some as the legs go out - but I have to modify to not flex at the hip much. It hurts but I want to keep trying Freestyle is a no go (at least how I do it as an inexperienced swimmer).

I miss exercise so much and I’m realizing if I’m not proactive about this my overall longevity and health will suffer. I used to be highly athletic. I’m desperate to create an accessible (without driving, which is painful) way to keep this body moving. Walking in water is comfortable and wonderfully tiring. It seems to use quads and psoas more than my weaker spots and the bouyancy is great. I love heat, am often cold. I don’t love electronic noises/ whirring. Hot tub noise and bubbles kind of bug me and my leg 😂 - I prefer just a pressure on my leg bc of all the nervy sensations. I also am a single mom of 3 kids so happy, playful entertainment is wonderful. Lots of neighborhood friends in and out of the house regularly.

I’m renovating my house and realizing the massive cost of a swim spa may be worth it if I can find the right fit. I’m trying to get into formal hydrotherapy to expand my hydro-PT vocabulary but we are relatively rural and it’s a struggle. Also hard for me to travel to try a lot out. I’m hoping to narrow down my choices and then see what I can go we test at a reasonable distance. Costly decision (money and space) given how little trying on I can probably do. But I can try an EP I think 700 easily.

So here is where you may come in! My needs are very different than yours and maybe your experience but you have clearly all spent a lot of time thinking about this. I think this is what I need:

• Current of some kind - I think non-air jet would feel better? Solid push against my legs instead of frothy??? But maybe I’m making that up.
• Treadmill?
• OK for some non-expert breast stroke
• Ideally quieter
• Energy efficient - Can be kept at 95 maybe
• Therapy jets with at least one lounge seat
• Will need automated cover - may do sliding wood panel like the creative architect above.

I love the idea @Aglitter had of a round pool with the Badu jet. I realize they want that as an expert swimmer, though and don’t know how important the current quake will be for me. But it would be awesome if that round pool could be a large “hot tub” with one lounge seat and a treadmill in the middle. Ha!! So quirky! And not realistic probably. But I am going to go investigate that possibility

From this incredibly thorough review I think the best straight forward bet may be:

1. Master Spa H2X challenger - I can’t remember if they do treadmills and will research outside this thread! Would forgo lounge seats.
2. Maybe jacuzzi or Marqui (better lounge seats than artesian you said) - make something with a current
3. EP post 2017 - give up lounge seat
4. Build own pool to get flow AND lounge seat …Ugg …but then won’t have therapy jets or treadmill.

Ha.

Ideas??
THANK YOU

@audreycw It sounds as if corrective surgery is not a possibility for you, or even if it is, hydrotherapy would make a significant difference in your quality of life. I'd even recommend that you put some of your home renovations on hold until you make sure everything you need in a residential hydrotherapy unit is affordable for you, because the cost may exceed what you expect.

After reading your wish list, I'll have to say that a built-in reclining lounger isn't available in a swim spa that also supplies a good treadmill system. Artesian TidalFit Fitspas which are dual-temp units have a swim current and a lounger but no treadmill. Master Spas produces a couple of Therapool models that have a swim current and a lounger but no treadmill. Endless Pools, as you already seem to know, is the clear leader in the present market for underwater treadmills. I've tested an Endless Pools treadmill, and it is ideal for someone who plans to use a swim spa primarily for water walking.

Note that some of the acrylic Endless Pools models may be too restrictive for you to successfully do a breaststroke kick without hitting barriers, but if your kick is as narrow as you say, if you aren't extraordinarily tall, and if you take care not to drift too far backward, you could probably do breaststroke in any Endless Pools acrylic model. Note that treadmills are also available for the Endless Pools Originals, but an Original won't offer you the level of insulation you need to keep your temperature up with energy efficiency.

You mentioned living in the Northwestern USA, and knowing that you'll want to be doing hydrotherapy 4 to 6 times a week for maximum benefit, I would highly recommend reconsidering setting this unit outdoors unsheltered. A shelter for the unit, even if it's an inexpensive one, would expand your swim season much further unless you live along a temperate coastal region, in which case you may be able to swim outdoors most of the year.

You have a mom's heart wanting to entertain not only your own children but the neighborhood children as well, however, I recommend if you sink as much money as you will need into this project to make it a customized hydrotherapy machine for your medical needs that you keep children out of it for the most part--definitely children who are not your own. An underwater treadmill must be used appropriately and treated gently; inexperienced children may get tangled underwater in that type of machinery, and you also don't know how clean guests will be who may want to frequent the swim spa. Extra bodies in the water will require more chemicals and possibly even more frequent drainings, cleanings, and refillings. If you go forward with this purchase, I recommend sending the children to another pool to swim where lifeguards are on duty and delicate, mechanical equipment such as a treadmill isn't present in the water.

Endless Pools acrylic models are on the quieter side relative to many other swim spas when your ears are above water. I found a high-pitched noise to be annoying only when swimming with my head within the Endless Pools current. Since you will be mostly using the treadmill, the noise should be tolerable for you. If an Endless Pools acrylic is too noisy for you while swimming in the current, then almost every other brand will be as well, including a BaduJet Turbo Pro which setup is ill-suited to your needs, anyway. A Master Spas Challenger may be quieter for you than an Endless Pools acrylic, but the Challengers don't offer treadmills at this time, to my knowledge.

The Jacuzzi and Master Spas Michael Phelps hot tubs offer more laid-out loungers than the Artesian Elites, but the Artesian hot tubs are quieter by far since they use switchless motors which no one else in the industry is using for hot tubs, to my understanding, in 2024.

If you are committed to the idea of a lounger with high heat plus cooler treadmill excercise, then we need to discuss a swim spa plus a separate hot tub. Remember that a swim spa is usually kept in a temperature range from high 70°F to low 80°F for safety during exertion and over longer periods of use. The temperatures nearing 100°F in a hot tub are unsuitable for exercise and can quickly expand blood vessels as the body attempts to offload heat which can induce medical emergencies, especially in anyone with a pre-existing heart condition. Please let us know if you have more questions, and best of success with your therapy efforts!

Thank you, @Aglitter, for your thorough, thoughtful, and quick response. It is quite helpful. I had a feeling I can’t get all the parts in one and just need to figure out what are my top 2 priorities. Your insight is quite helpful. I will research a bit more and may come back with more specific questions later. Thanks!!!!! Enjoy your day!

Hi All, any thoughts or experiences on a TidalFit EP-15? We're looking for a ~15' swimspa with a good seating setup for the spa and still have flexibility and depth (60'') for the swimming portion of it. Thanks.

@dpovieng With TidalFit being an Artesian product, you can hardly do better in terms of comfortable spa seating matched with a relatively affordable price. The problem with the TidalFit Pro-EP 15 is that it is not a dual-temp unit (with the spa area separated), thus your best swimming temperature will be far too low for heat therapy, so if you are looking to use the unit like a hot tub, please reconsider. Also, this is an air jet system so unsuitable for serious swim training. I would recommend reading this thread in full to learn more about all your options.

If you choose to go forward with TidalFit, I would advise trying to set up a wet test appointment first, and you may need to travel to the company's factory showroom in Nevada to do so, as the dealer network for these swim spas is limited, and few dealers who carry TidalFit swim spas have them set up for wet testing. Also consider whether you have access to a covered location for this spa. I've been doing some lap swimming this winter in a covered pool in North Texas USA, and even our mild winters are still cool enough to prohibit comfortable swims outdoors at water temperatures at which a swim spa would normally be kept. Unless you are in a very warm location, you will obtain a much longer swim season out of a covered swim spa.

The same does not apply to small hot tubs, as the high temps capable by small, high-heat units are usually enough to offset very cold outdoor temperatures. Many swim spas max out the heat setting at or around 89 degrees Fahrenheit for safety reasons during exercise and also sometimes for meeting state ratings for energy usage for the larger tubs of water.

@Aglitter, thanks for your detailed response!

@Aglitter, do you have any thoughts on this pump system (upgrade from Artesian) https://artesianspas.com/wavs/?

Thanks for drawing my attention to the new WaVS wave generation in Artesian's TidalFit swim spas. It is impossible for me to give a 100% accurate assessment without testing the jets myself, but I can give you a few observations based on the marketing material: 1) the top WaVS selling point seems to be speed variation--16 speeds--but by comparison, brands like Master Spas and PDC TruSwim offer 100 speeds with their swim spas plus programmable workouts with automatically varying speeds on some models, so 16 set speeds is hardly a winner, though it may be better than what TidalFit offered previously 2) another selling point of WaVS is that it is the "quietest pump in the industry," but remember that turbulence equals noise, and the turbulence created by these pumps appears to be off the charts just looking at the promotional video they made--which has music instead of live sound you'll notice, an odd choice to display the supposed quietness--so even if the pump itself is quiet, the amount of noise reaching your ears via the excessive turbulence will be significant, not to mention make side breathing hard with some strokes like freestyle with all that water turbulence, 3) it always bothers me when swim spa manufacturers cannot be troubled to find a real swimmer to demonstrate their swim spas, but at no time in the promotional video do we see a swimmer maintaining a competition-level stroke nor a kick with feet high in the water, and drag at the foot level is a huge problem area for almost every swim spa on the market with the exception perhaps of the SwimEx paddlewheel models, so it is a pity TidalFit does not clarify whether foot drag is resolved or, in fact, whether any training-level stroke is fluid at all, 4) and finally, it is clear that WaVS is an air-injected, jetted system, and the amount of air bubbles directed at your head when swimming at the upper speeds with WaVS will be uncomfortable enough for most people to prohibit extended swim sessions in addition to the generally true observation that air-injected jets do not provide the strong swim current level needed for serious swimmers.

Hope that is helpful. I appreciate the fact that Artesian is attempting to upgrade the TidalFit experience, but WaVS doesn't look like anything that is going to bring these swim spas into the league of SwimEx's paddlewheel models, Master Spas' H2X airless VIP jets or Michael Phelps propeller models, PDC's TidalFit propeller models, or Endless Pools' propeller models with exquisite turbulence elimination grids. If you want a swim spa that supports lap-swimming type exercise for hour-long sessions or however long you swim for training, you probably need to keep looking. Wet testing the spa would be important if you do wish to go forward to make sure that the capacity of the swim current is sufficient for the max speed any of your users will need.