I recommend the contractor hire/sub-contract this work to a TCNA certified contractor.

I recommend you do due diligence on the subs your contractor recommended.

Often, it doesn’t matter, you will move or remodel before an issue occurs.

In CA, a poster named Helen documented her experiences. And, a poster whose name began with A, maybe A C J N posted their experiences, one that failed....then the remediation.

I defintely need to do my due deligence now! I don't think I'll be able to persuade him to hire someone.

I googled how to make a shower pan and it says installing a layer of asphalt felt before placing mortar. The use of asphalt fel is to sponge off the moisture in the mortar. My contractor said that's not needed. Should I insist on installing asphalt felt?

I'll have to pay twice if I stop the project now. He's done must of the remodeling work.

twice you have mentioned U tube and your contractor. Seems u tube and your contractor do not agree. Where are you? Do you have permits?

Why do you believe u tube over your contractor?

Does your area require flood tests?

@UserI definitely trust U tube over my contractor. Do you think I can trust him doing the job right based on my descriptions? i.e, he doesn't know the type of mortar to use for shower pan, he admits having not made any shower pan for several years, and he's only in this country for three years. He said he worked before coming to US, but the standards/materials in his country are different.

We can do flood test regardless requirements. Do you mean that if it passes a flood test then it's ok? There won't be any problem later?

OK, you researched u tube, have confronted your contractor, have received assurance on the internet, and your contractor works to different standards?

Often, a laborer does what he was taught, maybe it lasts or not...

You want some to tell you, it is ok?

$5 k job, first floor over a crawl space, go for it. Sometimes, by the time your remodel hase a problem, either you have moved, discovered the problem during a remodel, or you are selling.

I am not a professional but maybe one on here can comment on my question. Can you use one of the prefabricated floors with drain installed? I’ve seen these used on TV and wonder about them. Something like this that also comes with curb and seems easier to waterproof.

https://www.showerbase.com/products/linear-shower-kit-42-x-61-front-or-back-drain-location-stainless-steel-mission-style-48-linear-drain

It’s a bit late, but tell him that you insist that he perform the job to TCNA industry standard. He is not going to know what that means. Impress upon him that you will have to call in an industry inspector if it does not pass the flood test. Require a flood test. When it fails, you can let him go.

For the batting cleanup contractor search, read every bit of this. Then compare it with your current guy’s abilities. https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

Be sure to take pictures every step of the way of what he's doing so you'll know what's behind the tiles and whether it was done correctly.

@User I don't know what TCNA means either :-) Do they makes standard for bathroom or only tiles?

@olychick Guess I need to know what's the steps involved in installing tiles too. Hiring someone to do the job is just as much as doing it oneself. No wonder people want to DIY

Re TCNA, do you know how to use google?

svrain you take pictures so you can show them to experts (here or inspectors, or elsewhere) to be told if it was done correctly. You don't have to know by yourself that it's correct, but need the documentation. At some point, if it's not right and you have to pay someone else to fix it, you might need to recover the $ in small claims court, where the pics will show it was wrong.

@olychick I probably won't worry about small claims court, but it's a good idea to take some pictures.

@User I happened to work ten years at a search firm. I think I know how to google, but I haven't read TCNA standard and don't quite know why it has anything to do with shower pan flood test.

Don’t be deliberately obtuse. Industry standards, codified. If you won’t get rid of this clown, then you deserve the mold and rot that he will cause. Grow a backbone. Stand up.

https://www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications/218-english-publications/188-handbook/968-2020-tcna-handbook-for-ceramic-glass-and-stone-tile-installation.html

TCNA has standards for shower pans.

Often, “this is we do it” works, it is always how they learned to do it. The workers are somewhat transient and do not know if a job had a problem because they no longer work there.

Sometimes you get a deal, sometimes, a few years later, you get a problem. If, you get a problem, will your contractor be around to help you?

If you want to trust him, (or need assurance) photo his work and compare it to u tube.

with your computer background, why are you on forums?

@Celadon Wow! Calm down. Perhaps not everyone think the way you do? Perhaps they want to think over the options? Deserve? That's strong words!

@User Why am I here? Hmm, I though this was a nice forum. are you suggesting this is not the place for me or the topic?

The topic is fine, but you are obtuse.

@User You don't understand humor. forget it

it says installing a layer of asphalt felt before placing mortar. The use of asphalt felt is to sponge off the moisture in the mortar. My contractor said that's not needed. Should I insist on installing asphalt felt?

With a shower pan...IF it is over a wood subfloor, not only do you need either the asphalt OR a plastic barrier, you also need to staple or nail metal lathe before putting down the mudbed. IF it is over concrete, you do NOT need this, but you Do want to mix up a "slurry" of very loose thinset...put it down with an old paintbrush and immediately put the mud over it. This will allow it to adhere to the floor.

@whisper avanti It's over wood. He's put a shower pan liner. I made him to install beckerboard underneath it. is the nail metal lathe to be installed before the liner?

You might want to let this guy go and hire a trained, certified tile professional who knows how to waterproof a shower.

Here are 2 sites where you can search for a certified tile pro using your zip code:

www.tile-assn.com

Click on “find a contractor” and enter your zip
code. Let the miles radius be fairly large, like 50 miles or so. The excellent
tile pro that built all my bathrooms was on that site in my area, but about 40
miles away bc he was near downtown and I’m in a suburb.

www.ceramictilefoundation.org

This site has lots of good information on it. I
didn’t find my contractor on this site, but a lot of people have told me that
they had luck with it. Here’s where you click to find a contractor:

www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers. 

Here's where you can go to buy an online version of the TCNA handbook. It’s less than $40. It’s over
600 pages, but you don’t have to read the whole thing. Read the introduction
(about 50 pages) and then read the shower chapters. You can skip all the other
chapters such as swimming pools, etc. Reading this helped me to learn about the
process and industry standards for water proofing and tile installation; it
helped me to ask more informed questions.

www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications.html

Also, after you get rid of this guy and hire a real tile professional, you will still want to understand what the new person's waterproofing plan is. Different pros prefer different materials. The pro will choose the materials, but it's always good to be knowledgeable of what the pro is planning to do. After he/she tells you what materials/methods they are going to use, look up the manufacturer's installation instructions. While the new person is doing their work, take pictures at lunchtime and in the evening. Whatever buckets of stuff are in the bathroom, look up those instructions also. If you have any questions, ask your pro.

The tile pro who remodeled my bathrooms said an educated customer is his best customer. He wasn't afraid or defensive when I asked questions because he knew all the answers and did everything exactly as it should be. I'm sorry this is happening to you, I had a disaster on my hands before finding a real pro too; but now that you know this guy is going to create a disaster for you, you probably need to find a way to part ways and hire anew.

Yes, when over wood, the plastic and the lathe need to be attached before the pre slope morter is set...THEN the sloped liner is installed. No nails on the top or inside of the curb. Pre folded lathe over the curb, secured by nails only on the outside and then the curb is mudded ...I like to use mason mix for this.

Having said all that, your picture looks as though there is NO pre slope under the liner. Please say it ain't so.... that it isn't just sitting level on the floor. If so, a re-do is a MUST.

Enlarging the picture, I also see screws in the top of the curb as well as in the field area of the liner. The liner is now totally compromised and needs to be thrown out. No way to save it. Please make sure the next liner has the required pre slope under it...

You have a chance here to put brakes on and re-HIRE, hire wisely this second more costly time. Total tear-out.

In your new binding written contract? requires A detailed scope of tile work.

" All tile and tile related work will meet current TCNA, ANSI, IRC, UPC code/standards and adhere to all manufacturers instructions."

Thank you very mcuh! @Mint Tile LLC @Avanti Tile & Stone / Stonetech@AJCN

I told my contractor what you all said but he insists that's the way to do it here locally. He said the nails on the curb is fine since there will be nailed down becker board on top too, plus tiles and shower door on top of it, it won't be an issue. I've told him stop the work and I'm going to bring this to a local licensed contractor for opinion, although I don't think the local standard would be lower.

Thanks you all!

You can insist that the moon is made of green cheese, but that does not make it so....

In the TCNA handbook there are lots of places that repeat something like this “liner must be free of penetrations.” A nail or a screw through the liner is a penetration. He’s wrong. I’m not even a pro and I know that much. If he’s so sure, ask him to print out the local building code that specifies what he’s saying. He won’t be able to.

Don’t let him talk down to you Or ghost you.

Sigh.....A nail or a screw IS a "penetration."

You need to hear this and until you get it into your head, no one here can really help you. This guy has no idea what he is doing and your internet sleuthing is not helping you either. Stop the work before it is too late. He is doing nothing correct.

He's doing a lot of things wrong . It's really tiring for me to watch and correct him. It was a hiring mistake but it's so far in the project.and I also feel bad to fire him because he has worked hard. He is willing to fix things when I point and convince him that's needed. I've asked a few contractor friends. they pointed a lot of things he did wrong, but they think it should be ok with nail on the curb, since curb has low water exposure and there are layers of protection above it. I'm crossing my fingers and hope it won't become a disaster.

"but they think it should be ok with nail on the curb, since curb has low water exposure and there are layers of protection above it."

BS. The disaster is your obliging him and allowing him to continue the charade. He is stealing your money with your blessing. Never to far to stop incompetence. This will cost you more in short order. He has not done one thing correct and yet you keep rewarding him. Unfortunately you just are incapable of helping yourself. I am done. Good luck with the hot mess you have fostered.

I'm sorry you're in this mess and it's difficult to pull out in the middle of a disaster, but it's cheaper to fix it correctly now that down the road. And pity anyone who purchases your home in the future who might be the one stuck to pay to redo it.

You're a kind person to not want to fire him because he's worked hard....well, burglars and thieves often work VERY hard for their money, but we don't feel bad about stopping them because of that. He's stealing your hard earned money. That's the work in this scenario you should think about. How many hours will you have to work to fix his "hard work"?

Look, here's how we handled it when it happened to us:

Stop all work and schedule a business meeting (by email) at your house after the tile pro comes to inspect and gives you a written report. Don't talk, email or let him in your house until the meeting. Our meeting was on a Friday.

Have a friend, spouse or adult child present to take notes of everything said. At the meeting, go through the problems that are listed in the report without giving him a copy of the report. You paid for it. You are under no obligation to give him a copy. Just make a list based on the report and go down the list one by one to discuss (prioritize the list with the most horrible things at the top, probably waterproofing is first). Go through the biggest problems; if there are little insignificant things, just leave them out of your discussion so you can stay focused. After discussing the list of problems, ask this question: "What is your plan for fixing these problems and completing the project?" Write down his answer. When we asked that, the conversation started going off on tangents. My DH would bring it back with "What is your plan for fixing these problems and completing the project?" They kept saying that we should hire a new pro for the shower, but that they could keep working on the other stuff, like cabinets, etc. DH had to remind them several times that we hired them for the whole project.

After having to do that 4 or 5 times, he gave up on getting an answer, and said something like. Look, I understand you might not be able to tell me your plan right now. Why don't you work on it over the weekend and we'll talk again on Monday. At that point the meeting ended.

On Monday, we received an email that said "We have decided to no longer be involved in the shower portion of the project." We emailed back with "Thank you for your message. Of course we hired you to complete the entire bathroom, so that is what we would like to do. Please get back to us on what the plan is." They emailed back something like "We are not going to be involved." We emailed back "Does this mean you are quitting the entire project?" They did not email back at all over the next couple of weeks. We emailed 2 or 3 more times asking "Does this mean you are quitting rather than wanting to fix the problems?" After 3 weeks we sent a message saying "We're so sorry not to have heard from you. We are assuming that you have decided to quit the project and breech the contract. If that's not your intention, please let us know right away. Our bathroom is in shambles, it is not usable. There are not sinks, no shower, no bathtub, broken tile all over the place, and a rag stuck down the toilet hole. Because we need to hire a new contractor and buy replacement materials for everything that was ruined, please refund us X$$$$ so that we can proceed with re-demo and building the bathroom again."

We never heard back, til we did.

Now, if your contractor, after your business meeting, chooses to fix things, you have to give him a chance (but NOT piecemeal like you are doing). After the meeting, he needs to put together a comprehensive plan and submit it to you BY EMAIL. Again, NOT piecemeal. No more money changes hands unless/until it really is fixed. It won't be, but I'm just telling you what you need to do legally. If/when he screws up again, then you can legally fire him. BY EMAIL. In polite-ish professional language.

In our case, we hired a great new pro and everything was rebuilt in about 40 business days and it's great, perfect. After all that was over, the quit-GC emerged from hibernation and sued us saying that we fired them illegally. District judge disagreed (BECAUSE I HAD ALL THOSE EMAILS). Are understanding how you must have an electronic "paper trail?" No verbal conversations, unless you confirm them later with emails to create that trail after the fact. Also, you should always assume that other people are keeping an electronic paper trail on you. Your language should always be professional. Keep it all about business. Just because the worksite is your home does not mean it's not a professional business setting worthy of professional language.

Judge awarded us 20K. We did everything ourselves, did not hire a lawyer. It's possible to do, but a real PITA and monopolized our lives for many months. We couldn't even enjoy our bathroom til it was all over. That's why we did not sue them. We knew it would be a PITA, and just figured we got an expensive lesson about the consequences of hiring the wrong, but expensive GC. But after they sued us, we had to respond which we did with a counter-suit. DH did a financial analysis to come up with a fair number to ask for (for example, when we re-did it we chose more expensive tile; it would have been unfair to ask the quit-GC to pay for that). Judge relied on his analysis and made the decision on the 20K based on that.

If you want to make it out this relatively unscathed, stop the work, stop the piecemeal stuff, get your inspection report, and schedule the meeting. I've been there. I'm sorry this is happening. Don't make it worse with all this piecemeal stuff. It's not going to help. I'm sorry to sound a little harsh; I really want this to work out for you.

I've been very concerned and thinking about what to do. I want to avoid a diasaster without stopping my life. The fact that it's so difficult to find a contractor to do the work here plays a big role in my decision. My next door neighbor told me yesterday that they have been waiting for a contractor for over a year. They're looking for another. Whenever I go to stores, I see long lines waiting to talk to a salesperson. It was not like this when I did a remodel three years ago. Right now my decision is to talk to him and keep close attention to what he does. No. I do not want to redo it right now, even if that means I'll have to fix it later. The lesson for me is to take the time to find the right professional before starting the work. Don't assume it's a small job and everyone can do it.

@AJCN You appear to have OCD. It's ok if you simply want to make a suggestion, but stop go to every one of my post and tell me to stop. Not everyone try to make money out of the poor contractor.

"My next door neighbor told me yesterday that they have been waiting for a contractor for over a year."

How will you find someone to repair the mold and rotted mess this horrific install will cause if it takes a year to find a contractor? Wrong is wrong, period. Totally up up to you what info to take from this thread. But you have your head in the sand. Everyone here has told you this is completely wrong yet you keep wanting to believe it will be alright. You are incorrect.

I am sorry that you are going through this. As a family who has been down this road, I cannot stress enough to listen to the pros here and stop this job. The cost of repairing a slow leak is not covered by insurance. It took us years and more money than you can imagine repairing the leak. Do you think it is hard finding a GC now? Try finding one willing to deal with the rotted mess of a leaking shower. It took us 2 years. We also had the added expense of paying an engineer to properly plan how to repair the rot. Just stop now!

So the shower pan has been sitting there for four days now. It's enough time for it to dry up. I just did a shower pan test. It's leaking all over the place. I'm willing to give him a lot of slack, as long as the shower pan test passes. But I have no choice now, unless he gets someone to do it properly.

Good luck but part of the problem in allowing him to have continued is now you pay someone else more money as they now need to fix someone else's mess. I true pro at this point would only take the project with a complete gut and throw everything done in the trash. So you will be paying for all that material again, plus the demo, plus the down time without your shower, and on and on.

@millworkman I've had him to stop since I found he didn't do the pan correctly. I need to prove that what he's doing doesn't work. Why would I tell him to stop if I didn't find him doing things wrong? Two bags of Mortar is something I'm willing to waste to show the evidence. Why do people keep telling me to stop while I posted it here almost a week ago that he has stopped? I don't need to be told what to do. Something like a shower pan test is good information I got from here. I appreciate information like that.

"Why would I tell him to stop if I didn't find him doing things wrong?"

He has not done one thing correct from item #1. Your words not mine, I am thru, good luck with your project.

Wow, so much wrong here. I hope you get a new tile contractor and get this sorted out. Yikes

So the pan test I did was inaccurate. We have done a through test using inflatable test plug and waited for 24 hours. There is no water leaks.

So now the question is: do we still need to redo the shower pan? Is there anyway to patch it?

I was concerned about the nail on the curb issue and kinda of ignored the pre-slope issue which is a much bigger problem. My contractor suggests to use redgard all over the pan, bench, and curb. That sounds like a reasonable fix to me. Anyone says otherwise?

Sure, just redgard over the entire mess and stop asking us to "bless" this method.....You're gonna do what you wanna do and, apparently nothing we can say or advise will change that. Best of luck....

Hahaha, it seems people here are mad at me. All I want is to be realistic and not get into a huge disaster. I know how unreasonable some local contractors can be.

OK. That's it. I know nothing about home improvement. I made a bad hire. But I have a few friends who're contractors. One locally licensed friend has inspected the shower pan. I'll rely on their advice.