are you having this done professionally ... do you understand how big a root mass you will need to dig.. and pull out of a hole.. and drop in a new hole across the yard ...

and if you are hiring it out.. what have your local vendors said about this timing ...

you might want to get a couple quotes on moving them.. to see what the varying local opinions are ...

to tell you the truth.. i would be pruning up the shade trees for more light.. long before i would be moving stock of this size.. especially without machinery to do it .. and i wouldnt even bother with a 5 dollar norway spruce ... probably cut it to about 7 feet and use it as a xmas tree .. and plant a new smaller babe ...

the bottom line.. generally speaking .... you do this type of thing in dormancy ... so the tree can grow some roots before the heat of next summer.. without wasting energy while its growing leaves and such ... and in your zone.. im guessing you can probably do it all winter long ... its not like your ground freezes or you will be working in a foot or two of snow ...

ken

Thanks. The ground does freeze sometimes. I'm having someone else do it. All the trees would be bought from a tree farm except the crepe myrtle which I already have and need to move. Good point about trimming the surrounding trees.

The vendors say fall or early spring are equally good but what I've read especially about dogwoods is that they should be done in early spring. I've also read that early spring is a little better for the spruce and the holly. I really want to do it now but I think I'll wait til early spring since there's only about four hours of good sun.

Also not sure what you mean by "and i wouldnt even bother with a 5 dollar norway spruce ... probably cut it to about 7 feet and use it as a xmas tree .. and plant a new smaller babe ..."

I want them for screening so the tallest norway spruce I can get is 10-11 feet. By "5 dollar" do you mean these are inexpensive trees?

I think there was some confusion in your terminology. 'Transplanting' typically refers to moving an already established plant from one location to another. Your situation just involves new plantings.

In a zone 7 Maryland location, I would not hesitate with fall planting! Hours of available sunlight are not critical - it is what is happening under the soil level that's important. Mild temps, still warm soils, a natural period of root extension, typically plentiful rainfall all contribute to faster establishment with minimal planting shock and plenty of time to develop a good root system before hit with the heat of summer. In warmer zones, fall planting is almost always advised. For a fully zone hardy plant, you can plant any time the soil is workable - that is, not frozen solid or overly saturated by winter rains.

We never do broadleaf evergreens (magnolias, Nellie Stevens/Mary Nell/oakleaf hollies) in the fall, and we're in z7 (we run from Charlottesville to Bethesda/Cabin John). The loss rate is too high as the big leaf surfaces let them dry out super fast. Current science recommends against anti-dessicants so all we can do is wait.

Our calendar is, generally speaking: Sept 1 - no more broadleaf evergreens; Nov 1 - no more perennials; Dec 15 - if conditions aren't perfect (sheltered from wind, good soil, etc) we wait till March.

I think a word is missing from the above comment. Conifers? Up til Dec 25?

Well, that's kind of odd. There is NO cut-off to planting anything on the west coast in similar zones as long as it is fully zone hardy. We plant year round here with fall highly encouraged and spring next - and we do not even experience very hot summers! About the only time planting is discouraged is midsummer and that's only because our dryness then makes it difficult to keep up with necessary watering.

My crew have installed entire landscapes in December, January and February (as long as weather conditions cooperate) and we have seldom lost a single plant.

by transplant i mean that the trees are already living in the ground at the tree farm, so putting them in my yard would be a transplant, right? anyway, it sounds like the norway spruce could go in the fall but the other two should be done in early spring - I assume March as long as there are no more frosts? But maybe I'll do all of them in early spring just to be safe. In the meantime maybe I can find a conifer other than the Norway Spruce that doesn't need quite as much sun. thanks.

All of the plants you mention are fully frost proof. First or last frost dates should have no bearing on when they can be planted.

If these plants are properly grown by a quality wholesaler*, they will have NO problem with being fall PLANTED in zone 7. At very worse if they get a winter like 78, 85, 94 or 2013 the holly could defoliate a little bit.

The only BLEs I'd worry about planting in fall are truly borderline things... camellias, gardenias, etc. I might be a little about a more tender cultivar of holly, but Nellie Stevens is pretty close to indestructible in zone 7.

* - meaning, for the sizes described, they will have gigantic root balls. Presumably field dug and balled and burlapped. If they are for some reason grown in those washer machine sized black plastic pots, I'd be more worried not about first winter hardiness per se, but just ability to really get established well...a problem with knotted roots could take years to manifest itself although none of those are particularly picky about that sort of thing.

@gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9) our winters have been getting drier and drier, with way more radical temperature swings. I think it was 2 or 3 years ago, our consulting arborist said that because of the swings a lot of established little gem magnolias died all around the mid-Atlantic. One client lost 3 that were 10+ yrs old. If it's a big enough swing, it'll cause crape myrtle trunks to crack open at the base.

We've done late December planting jobs where it's 60 degrees, you can literally feel the front come in, and the following day it's 12 degrees. Plants in pots and B&B plants don't like that if they're sitting out on the driveway waiting to go in.

I've done design and install in five distinct regions of the country, and one thing I've learned is that every one defies expectations in one way or another. It's why I'm not a fan of online design services because sometimes you have to live there to know what works and what doesn't.

There is obviously a big difference in the climate of the greater PNW and the zone 7 mid-Atlantic.

But it doesn't really apply to relatively huge specimens of things that are already quite hardy.

If OP had a rooted cutting of a Nellie R Stevens fresh out of a cold frame, sure, I would tell them to wait until spring to plant it.

BTW 'Little Gem' is a bad example to cite since it's more or less the least hardy M. grandiflora and shouldn't be planted north of Charlotte, Raleigh or Norfolk, even if it might look good for a number of years until a cold winter damages it. I would really really question that there had been any 'established' ones north of that line, that were established pre 1994 or 1996...maybe even 2003. Basically there was a long string of fairly mild winters from 96 to 2013, with 2003 being the closest to an exception...so people got away with planting things they shouldn't have. The poor hardiness of 'Little Gem' was known 20 years ago although I can't remember the source now. Could be Jacobson's NALT.

I'm happy to see if I can find pics of the fall planted hollies that kicked the bucket before spring. Oakleaf hollies seem the worst, but I've seen Nellies and Mary Nells die too. I still don't know what to make of Virginia hollies. I think what surprised me with the little gems is location - sheltered or not - didn't seem to make a lick of difference.

Done correctly I would be fine with fall planting larger field stock spruce, holly and dogwood. Potted, winter hardy trees and shrubs, no question they can be fall planted in my zone 6b NC mountains. The key to both is water. I am fortunate to live in the crosshairs of cold fronts and have mountains that catch water. Landscape contractors relying on clients to properly water in trickier winter conditions is a little more iffy. Thirsty plants in extreme cold can be deadly.

The don't plant time here would be from like Dec1 to March 15.

I will also attest to the extreme mood swings in the weather that has been doing all kinds of wacky and deadly damage to landscape plants.

@kitasei2 sorry just saw your comment. No, that Dec 15 on is for all woodies except the broadleaf evergreens. So deciduous trees and shrubs, boxwood, etc.

I'm leaning towards REvolutionary,,,fall planting is supposed to be best ,,,but winter swings , and drought spell failure ,,A thirsty plant in frozen soil is killer

ron

Zone 7 soils do not freeze to any appreciable depth. And unless in a extended cold spell, thaw pretty darn fast as well!! And if you have a dry fall, then of course you need to water.....watering well after planting is a matter of course regardless of the season. But not nearly as often as you would if planted in spring. Soil moisture evaporation is greatly reduced in winter and even more so if the new planting are properly mulched.

It's not always about frozen soil and the most professional planting job money can buy. Sometimes it is about getting someone outside in the winter to water the plants. Irritation systems on the east side are not a given.

Even if they have irrigation, by mid-November they've blown out the system and winterized it. So now you're trying to get a client to regularly go in the basement, turn the outside tap back on, walk back outside, hook up the hose, water their plants, drain the hose so it doesn't freeze, put it away, and go back down to shut the outside tap back off. Never gonna happen.

gardengal, everything you're saying is factually correct as a general statement of how planting *should* work. But I've been designing and installing landscapes here in VA for 15 years and in that time, I've seen winter work - planting AND hardscape - become riskier. Based on what I've seen and what my peers have seen, the planting of certain trees and shrubs in winter is riskier than is worth it in my part of the world. You seem to be arguing against that and I'm not really sure why.

I have never gardened in VA so will accede to your experience. But it just seems like a lot of fuss and bother unnecessarily.

Although there are rumors to the contrary, we get significantly less rainfall here than you, even in winter. After the initial planting there is no need to water routinely through winter. The soil moisture persists - not enough heat to cause any evaporation - and unless we go weeks without rainfall - virtually unheard of - soils stay moist and plants are fully hydrated until things start heating up in mid to late spring. Most homes here do not have inground irrigation anyway.

Other than a few protected container plantings, no one waters here in winter and everything survives just fine! I have a hard time accepting why your conditions should be so radically different.

In zone 7 mid Atlantic you are better off waiting until late Feb. In zone 8 Virginia you are typically OK year round. I agree with Revolutionary's assessment of the growing conditions in the area in question.

How is it fuss and bother? If we're past a certain date, we do the rest of the job, do a holdback, and return in the spring to finish. Maybe it doesn't throw me for a loop because I've lived in crappy winter climates where the ONLY thing happening after Turkey Day is pushing snow. I mean they call this a seasonal business, after all.

Again, I don't know why you can't accept it. But I'm gonna keep on trusting these lyin' eyes.

My comment about "fuss and bother" was the stated need for winter watering....I just don't see that of being of major concern.

I currently live in a very protected and marine influenced location. But most of the area surrounding is firmly a zone 8, dipping into a zone 7 in some higher elevations. But there is nothing seasonal about gardening or landscaping here!! It is a fully year round activity and I have overseen the installation of many local gardens through the winter months. The only thing that slows it down is the lack of available plant material through the winter months, as nurseries seldom bring in much fresh stock during that period. And the occasional periods, usually in late winter, when the soil is too saturated to work. Or sometimes a snowfall....but those don't hang around very long. Fall planting, on the other hand, is of NO concern at all!!

I will agree that there are some regional influences involved that could present limitations. But I still have difficulty in accepting that the conditions can be so divergent.

Let me explain it to you. The annual temperature range in the PNW is in a narrower probably more stable band compared to the more extreme temperature ranges in the east. The weather itself is becoming more extreme with drought or flood. Warm winters are causing early bud break. That and more can get zapped by polar vortex cold or a totally normal spring freeze.

I have seen the plants in native ecosystems severely damaged by the weather swings. Eighty foot high Tulip Poplars, Liriodendron, had ten and twenty feet of the tops freeze one year. This spring all the new leaf growth on them got frozen along with all the Poisoned Ivy and all the ferns to name a few items. I have seen fully mature Ilex opaca and JMs freeze dead to the ground.

That is just a small sample of what I have seen in the 13 years I have been here. In my view that is not long enough to know what is normal, but it sure is odd. Drought in winter is at least not something I have had to worry much about.

I predominantly plant in the fall without regard to the type of plant, and I would agree that after the first part of November, supplemental watering is almost never necessary here in North Georgia. The sun angle is too low to cause significant evaporative losses due to solar radiation, even when temperatures are warm. However, we are blessed with regular rain in the winter months, and in my ten years of experience I don't remember ever experiencing dry soil throughout the root zone in winter. Having said that, we'll probably experience three months without rain this year, and I'll insert my foot into my mouth.

However, while I have planted the odd camellia or boxwood or azalea or holly, I really mostly put conifers into the ground. So my experience is certainly limited.

I never got the Zones myself, personally. Gardening in west central Georgia (Zone 7A) is nothing like eastern Pennsylvania (Zone 7A). Somehow I doubt you'll see too many weeks with sustained 15 degree nighttime temperatures in west central Georgia, nor weeks of blanketed snow (which you'll still see here). Yet the zones are identical simply due to an occasional extreme in temperature in that part of Georgia and our extreme being closer to 0 and tightly bordering Zone 6?

Then trace along Zone 7 and look at all the places it encompasses. Identical weather through the year, identical enough to mean the same gardening and agricultural habits and methods?

Yeah, I think not. :-)

When given a zone in the lawn forum, I just ask for more information. It's practically useless--it says nothing about actual sustained winter temperatures, rainfall, snowfall, and so on.

Frankly, I don't rely on it much in terms of plant survival, either, and look up reports on how things actually do.

Zone 3, for the US, is at least small enough that I'd believe things might be relatively similar in some cases.

I don't pro it or design, and I'm no competition, I just read everything in fall and winter. :-)