Axios- Cost of Post- Floyd riots exceeds $2. Billion

Tito Milian

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/riots-cost-property-damage-276c9bcc-a455-4067-b06a-66f9db4cea9c.html

Meh, merely victimless crimes, because insurance makes everyone whole and there will be no trickledown cost. Thank goodness the protests were 93% peaceful!

/s

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paprikash

Peaceful riots.

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Gizmo

Kind of rich be concerned about costs coming from a Trump supporter.

Case in point, how many billions in bailouts has Trump given to farmers due to his failed tariffs on China, Answer: $23 billion

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/14/donald-trump-coronavirus-farmer-bailouts-359932


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huachuma

And then there was this which supposedly cost 6X what the riots reportedly did...

(I think both numbers are inflated to some extent)

Sturgis Motorcycle Rally Cost $12.2 Billion


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bry911

Let's put this into perspective though. In 2020 New York city allocated $733 million for lawsuit payouts, much of that is from police misconduct.

The police brutality bonds in just five cities (Chicago, Cleveland, Lake County (Indiana), Milwaukee, & Los Angeles) cost taxpayers an estimated $1.87 billion.

While I would appreciate it if criminals stop destroying buildings, I would also appreciate it if we stopped giving criminals badges, guns and immunity.

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Ann

You beat me to it Tito. This figure has been making news all day and I just came here to post a thread on it.

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elvis

An inconvenient truth.

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jmm1837

So, poor policing costs the US billions in compensation payouts and billions in riot damage. Maybe it's time to improve the quality of policing.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

In 2020 New York city allocated $733 million for lawsuit payouts, much of that is from police misconduct.

I realize that NYC is the most populous metropolitan area in the country, but LAPD's payouts make them seem almost angelic in comparison. In the last few months, however, the L.A. County Sheriff's Department looks as if there are aspirations to match NYPD's allocation.

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Ziemia(6a)

From OP link....

********

"Yes, but: These losses are small... "

*****

... compared with those stemming from natural disasters like hurricanes and the wildfires that are consuming the U.S. West.

  • Hurricane Isaias will cost $3 billion-$5 billion in insurance losses, per Risk Management Solutions (RMS).
  • The wildfire season has just begun this year, but already insured losses are at $1.5 billion, Triple-I tells Axios. That compares with $18 billion for all of 2018 and $15 billion for all of 2017 (the 2019 numbers aren't available yet).
  • ......
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bry911

Any rational person can clearly see there is a problem with policing in this country. There is plenty of evidence that bigotry is a large part of the police support. Police brutality is not a racial problem, the police in this country abuse white people regularly and consistently. Police kill far too many white men without cause, they consistently assault and abuse all races of people, and violate the rights of most groups.

There are simply so many points of evidence that police are a serious problem that no rational person could argue otherwise. If you need evidence, let's just look at the shooting of Ryan Whitaker (warning...this video is hard to watch so don't if you don't want to be upset -- I advise muting the sound in any case). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIH_s2y0KVg

The only reason that I can find for widespread support of the police is racism. The police protect your suburban America from the bad brown people and so what if you lose a few white people along the way at least the brown people will learn their lesson. I can think of no other reasonable explanation.

This is not to say that BLM is wrong. The police brutality present in too many interactions is exponentially higher in black communities. Institutional racism in policing certainly exists, but even if black citizens were executed by the police at the same rate as white citizens, it would still be far too often.

So a few billion dollars to make this change is a bargain. I am sorry for the people whose livelihood is affected by this movement and am not excusing the actions of those people who are destroying property. However, as a society we must accept that collateral damage is inevitable when reasonable pathways to equity are blocked.

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Ann

"The only reason that I can find for widespread support of the police is racism."

I had to read this sentence multiple times to make sure I didn't misread it.

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bry911

I had to read this sentence multiple times to make sure I didn't misread it.

I believe the next sentence clears that point up just fine...

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Ann

"The police protect your suburban America from the bad brown people and so what if you lose a few white people along the way at least the brown people will learn their lesson. I can think of no other reasonable explanation."

No, this just made me almost tempted to report the comment as inappropriate.

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bry911

No, this just made me almost tempted to report the comment as inappropriate.

Why? I may have painted the motivation a bit dark, but the reasoning is simply an uncomfortable fact, there is little to debate about it.

In America we criminalize poverty, the get tough on crime movement created a criminal class and that class was largely poor and black. The entire movement is based on a rather flawed understanding of criminal motivation.

The assertion is that if we can crack down on all crimes in areas with certain crime statistics the increased punishment will deter criminals from committing crime in other areas. There are several problems with this, the first and most obvious is that you create a criminal class in society. Whether you are comfortable with it or not... THE PUBLICLY STATED IDEA WAS TO STOP CRIME IN "CRIMINAL AREAS," TO KEEP IT OUT OF SUBURBAN AREAS... THOSE CRIMINAL AREAS WERE SPECIFICALLY AREAS WITH LARGE MINORITY POPULATIONS.

While you might characterize that in a different light, it is hard to deny the inherent racism in that plan. Policing experts all over the world have acknowledged that fact, but the system is too self-reinforcing at this point to change smoothly or quickly.

Police are in increased danger today because the risk of interacting with the police is too high for too many Americans. Even innocent people in perceived criminal areas feel they are at risk of incarceration when stopped. The result is increased distrust of police and decreased cooperation with police. In America today there is a presumption of guilt by socioeconomic standard or even preconceptions of acceptable socioeconomic standards. What is worse is that this was planned. This is not a side effect of a policy meant to reduce crime, it was entire idea behind the movement.

All of this leads to the marginal penalties of non-cooperation out of line with the rewards for cooperation. Which leads to the police being in more danger and thus treating every interaction as if they were headed into a combat zone.

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elvis

Ann, don't even try^^^. It would be an exercise in futility, and certainly not worth the time, notwithstanding your honorable intentions.

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HU-400972298

Ann, let the comment stand for the profound ignorance and bigotry they reveal, for believing that minorities don't live, or have a vested interest, in the suburbs.


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heri_cles

Police brutality is an issue independent of race. However, there are far too many cases involving white Police officers treating black citizens like they are subhuman to ignore the fact that a racial/racist element is all too often involved.

No one is going to admit that they are a racist or even that they have negative sentiments toward people of other races. Certainly not any police.

So the denial will continue. You can't fix a problem unless you admit you have one.



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bry911

Ann, let the comment stand for the profound ignorance and bigotry they reveal, for believing that minorities don't live, or have a vested interest, in the suburbs.

No one said that. There is this flaw in the race discussion among a certain group of people that believe you must actively dislike every person of a certain race to be racist. You don't have to dislike every black person to support policies that are based on and promote racial inequality. What do you call someone who supports policies that are largely based on racial inequality?

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bry911

Police brutality is an issue independent of race. However, there are far too many cases involving white Police officers treating black citizens like they are subhuman to ignore the fact that a racial/racist element is all too often involved.

I don't think it requires white police officers. That is the kicker with racist policies and institutional racism, it doesn't require individual acts of intentional racism. Black cops can participate in institutional racism just as easily as white cops, and they do.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

there are far too many cases involving white Police officers treating black citizens like they are subhuman

Whites in law enforcement are not the problem; institutional racism is.

Take the case of LAPD where many, if not the majority of officers are Latinos -- who also abuse other Latinos as well as Blacks. The Sheriff's Department is currently headed by a Latino aggressively defending deputies who have killed unarmed Black and Latino civilians to the point of denying the release of autopsy reports. A previous Latino Sheriff is now in prison -- along with his right-hand man, a "model minority" -- for criminal abuse of prisoners in county jail.

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HU-293745350

People who object to the riots need to stop supporting Trump who created the riots! Vote Biden, bring America back to sanity!

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"No one is going to admit that they are a racist or even that they have negative sentiments toward people of other races. Certainly not any police."

"So the denial will continue. You can't fix a problem unless you admit you have one."

If she floats, she's a witch!

[Edited to italicize the quote]

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HU-400972298

If Trump created the riots, and the Democrats oppose everything he does and every position he takes, why have Seattle and Portland been on fire for 100 days?

Seems to me, if that were the case, the hate-Trump Democrats wouldn't have given Trump what he wanted, right?

"Hey, Trump wants riots. Let's give him RIOTS!!!"

Because what they live for is giving Trump what he wants.



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Ann

HU298, good comment! Yup, if Trump supposedly created the riots, the Dems are giving him what he created. Now, that would be a first!

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

Actually, it's a warning about the Kafka traps that are being strewn about.

"A black man could get shot while rescuing children from a burning building and people here would dig through his past with a microscope in an effort to prove he deserved it."

They may or may not do such a thing, but that sounds a bit like soothsaying, predicting behaviors based on caricatures or preemptively trying to shame people for wanting to question the supposed conventional wisdom.

Sometimes things are what they seem, sometimes there's more than meets the eye. I don't mind if people are trying to make sense out of non-sensical situations. Too often we're shown what others want us to see, only to find out later that it was a misrepresentation. It's no wonder that people are skeptical of things that are being presented and the quick judgments we're supposed to make.

Everyone on this board has been treating each other badly these days, accusing each other of unlikely and terrible things to gain points of some sort. None of us are innocent. It's the same in real life, with longstanding relationships destroyed over wrongthink (or just miscommunication). Unfortunately, I think it's going to get worse.

I agree that we need better policing and better people to do the policing. I want murderous cops to be charged with at least manslaughter; when they kneel on someone's neck and slowly kill them, first degree murder.

It also wouldn't hurt to hire cops who have people skills so things don't escalate to violence where none exists. Whatever hiring process is currently in use isn't working.

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bry911

Seems to me, if that were the case, the hate-Trump Democrats wouldn't have given Trump what he wanted, right?

I can't speak for others, but I don't hate Trump, I simply don't like or respect him. I hold some scorn for the people who elected and defend him.

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bry911

They may or may not do such a thing, but that sounds a bit like soothsaying, predicting behaviors based on caricatures or preemptively trying to shame people for wanting to question the supposed conventional wisdom. [...] I don't mind if people are trying to make sense out of non-sensical situations.

At what point is a pattern of behavior sufficient to become predictive? Is it "soothsaying" to comment on the sun coming up tomorrow? Is it "soothsaying" to believe when I drop a glass from several stories up that it will shatter on the ground? At some point the weight of our experiences become reliable predictions. The entire human condition is navigating the future based on the past. Time and time again we have seen character assassinations on individuals who were killed for no reason by the police.

Racism doesn't require intention, that is the thing that so many people struggle with. You don't have to dislike black people to be a racist, that is not how prejudice works. If your first reaction at seeing a black man needlessly killed by the police is to search for justification, that is racism, it is not trying to make sense out of a nonsensical situation.

Hoping the police are benevolent is fine, but refusing to believe your own eyes is not. At this point there is simply too much support for the problem of policing in America to not believe it is a real problem. I will argue that it is not simply a problem with murderous cops, it is a problem with the way police view groups.

ETA: Actually, it's a warning about the Kafka traps that are being strewn about.

I didn't see this earlier, but I don't see Kafka traps here. Noting that racism exists outside of your personal assessment of your own racism, doesn't mean you are racist if you deny it, it simply means that racism is a summation of your actions and positions rather than your self assessment.

Support for policing that stems from a perceived protection from certain socioeconomic groups is logical and reasonable and, in fact, has been made by police departments. It is the exact reason that police micro-stations in minority communities has fallen out of favor.

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lurker111

All that damage and only $2 billion? I think we need to find out how a website could cost $6 billion. You could build a city with that much money.

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"I didn't see this earlier, but I don't see Kafka traps here."

Denying that you're an alcoholic means you're an alcoholic because all alcoholics deny their addiction.

Denying you're a racist means you're a racist because all racists deny their racism.

The only way to deal with that kind of malicious circular reasoning is to not engage with it.

"Noting that racism exists outside of your personal assessment of your own racism, doesn't mean you are racist if you deny it, it simply means that racism is a summation of your actions and positions rather than your self assessment."

Oy. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying. It sounds like it was invented yesterday in furtherance of smugly shaming others, which should be an Olympic event these days.

What people are trying to do in this particular moral panic is reinvent the concept of original sin and smear it all over everyone.

I don't see that ending well for anybody.

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bry911

"I didn't see this earlier, but I don't see Kafka traps here."

Denying that you're an alcoholic means you're an alcoholic because all alcoholics deny their addiction.

I have read The Trial, I know what a Kafka trap is. They are rather asinine and no one here has made any reference to one other than you. I am not alcoholic because I only drink alcohol when I eat burgers or steak and I only eat meat a few times per month. I don't enjoy wine other than to cook with and I don't typically drink hard liquor. I am not an alcoholic because I still have the booze I bought in March. Feel free to make any assertion otherwise and you would be the only person here doing that about anything.

We might also note that claiming a Kafka trap is usually seen as its own Kafka trap.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying. It sounds like it was invented yesterday in furtherance of smugly shaming others, which should be an Olympic event these days.

If you want to believe that people are always honest with themselves and assess themselves impartially, then go ahead. If the absolute mountain of evidence out there has yet to convince you that we all lie to ourselves and that we all see ourselves in a more positive light, then I suspect there is little that I can say here to convince you otherwise.

However, let's go back to your alcoholic example... According to you, no one is an alcoholic until they believe they are an alcoholic. According to me, and the rest of the world, alcoholism is independent of your belief. You are alcoholic when you have an addiction to alcohol. Your belief in that addiction is irrelevant.

We might note, that according to your definition of racism... many slave owners of the 18th and 19th centuries wouldn't be racist. Many, if not most, slave owners held a profound belief that slaves were a lower species and incapable productive contribution to society, therefore saw the enslavement of black people as protection of them and society.

So again, it is rather ridiculous to assert that someone isn't racist so long as they refuse to recognize it. It is also ridiculous to assert that a conversation on the institutionalized racism of policing is calling someone racist. The protections that people enjoy from police are largely protections of their civilized society from the uncivilized who need to be thrown in jail and removed from society. Your refusal to see that as racist doesn't mean it isn't.

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elvis

Far and away the best post on this thread:

lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"No one is going to admit that they are a racist or even that they have negative sentiments toward people of other races. Certainly not any police."

"So the denial will continue. You can't fix a problem unless you admit you have one."

If she floats, she's a witch!

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lurker111

If your first reaction at seeing a
black man needlessly killed by the police is to search for
justification, that is racism, it is not trying to make sense out of a
nonsensical situation.

Race isn't an issue when I see cops needlessly kill people. I don't see "black" people being killed. I see people. I was the first one on this forum to speak out against the Floyd killing.

Also, pay no attention to those who try to tell you what people were thinking hundreds of years ago. Slave owners also married their slaves and some of us are their offspring.

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"Also, pay no attention to those who try to tell you what people were thinking hundreds of years ago. Slave owners also married their slaves and some of us are their offspring."

You too?

I didn't come from the south, but there were a significant number of slaves in 17th and 18th century New York, in no small part due to the Dutch.

I've narrowed it down to either my ggg grandmother or gg grandmother. I'm trying to trace that entire line, but especially those 2 women. I've got some of the church records, but not all. Records are scattered all over. With many libraries and historical societies closed, it's been hard to trace.

Anyway, here I am. I carry her genes, which I share with at least one sister and have passed on to 2 of my children.

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Lars(Z11a (coastal L.A.) and Z9a (desert))

If police did not murder suspects, we would not be having this discussion.

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elvis

If there's reparations money, you two need to get on that list! Woo hoo!

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HU-400972298

Nashville hikes taxes 30+%. I'd call that even.

There's no town destroyed by the riots that won't be passing the cost on to the taxpayers.

In fact, the Democrats will demand the Federal gov't bail them out, so we're ALL going to be paying on many levels.


As far as reparations, mark my debt already "PAID IN FULL".

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bry911

Also, pay no attention to those who try to tell you what people were thinking hundreds of years ago. Slave owners also married their slaves and some of us are their offspring.

Speaking of logical fallacies... Informally this is called the friend fallacy and it is not proof of anything. You don't have to hate every black person or even dislike every black person in order to be racist. You can actually love a black person or even be a black person and still be racist against black people.

A misogynist can still love their mom, a serial killer can have friends, and a racist can have a black friend. It is called an atypical justification. Most people, even those who are racist, will have a friend of that race. They will view their friend as atypical of that race, you can even view yourself as atypical of your own race and be prejudiced against your own race. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

You can't own someone as property and not be prejudiced against them. PERIOD. Any justification you make for that, including loving someone you own, is just a justification for racism.

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bry911

Race isn't an issue when I see cops needlessly kill people. I don't see "black" people being killed.

Great... Now what does that have to do with my original position that policing in America, specifically the get tough on crime movement, is racially motivated?

I actually want to understand how someone could look at the police abuse in general terms and not realize that the police are a problem. Almost every white person in America should absolutely irate about how the police treat white people.

I posit that there are three reasons that make up the bulk of that support.

(1) Middle class America benefits from policing of lower class America and doesn't want the system to change. That system is inherently racist as the majority of the communities that are over-policed are minority communities. Middle class communities want police to distinguish between good kids who made a mistake and bad kids starting their life of crime, and overall they want those differences to be socioeconomically driven.

(2) Police brutality is seen as a black issue, which it absolutely should not be, and many people either don't care or are glad that police are cracking down on "those people."

(3) It has been politicized and people just hope the other side loses.

Can you make a meaningful case against those things?

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elvis

Back to the OP topic:

The vandalism and looting following the death of George Floyd at the hands of the Minneapolis police will cost the insurance industry more than any other violent demonstrations in recent history, Axios has learned.

That number could be as much as $2 billion and possibly more, according to the Insurance Information Institute (or Triple-I), which compiles information from PCS as well as other firms that report such statistics. The protests related to George Floyd's death are also different because they are so widespread. "It's not just happening in one city or state — it's all over the country," Loretta L. Worters of the Triple-I tells Axios.

"And this is still happening, so the losses could be significantly more."

[Diamond] Jones said she felt like South L.A. had “never recovered from those riots because, if you look at our community, there’s still abandoned buildings, there’s still not a lot of jobs.”

Look around, she said, and there’s still a shortage of grocery stores or restaurants that offer healthful food.

“It bothers me that certain [affluent] communities, no matter how damaged they are, will be OK,” but it’s not the same for minority neighborhoods, said Jones, a marketing coordinator for Forever 21 and owner of the clothing brand Nior.

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