Husband spent at least 1 hour digging a hole down to 2 feet. Water won't drain when a 3-gallon bucket poured in. He bought a LONG shovel for deep digging, spent another 1 hour, and it won't drain. He dug out a giant wheelbarrow of rocks. He gave up.

I finished the job, I spent 1 hour more digging 1/2 wheelbarrow of rocks, making a huge hole 2.5' deep x 3 feet wide to plant Purple Ogre.

Total hours spent by 2 people: 3 hours just to plant Purple Lodge, or Purple Ogre's huge root ball.

@Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA I came up with a "cool name" for your under-performing Julia Child. How about Judas' Child? It certainly betrayed you in blooming, right?

Hi @strawchicago z5!

A question about the airpots, as I remember you have to screw their sides into place : Is it possible to unscrew those screws that hold the pots' sides together with the plant still in there? That might allow for easier removal without breaking anything if the pot can just be peeled off of the rootball? I've never used them, so I don't know if that would be possible or helpful.

That is some seriously impressive work you and your husband did for planting Purple Ogre! Wow! I hope it will be happy in it's new home.

@strawchicago z5

Oh, that is perfect, Straw! :)

@seasiderooftop Yes, the screws at the side are easy to unscrew. It's easier to remove the root ball that way.

Thank you @straw, that's really good to know. Our "winters" are mild but very very wet, so if airpots can be peeled off I might get some small size ones for my seedlings so as to minimize root trauma when repotting in spring.

Oh and I am over the moon right now because Awesome Cactus is living up to the awesome part of her nickname and has formed a flower bud. I had bought this one explicitly because of her fall rebloom ability, but I had read it was far from guaranteed... She's doing it! Awesome indeed, and makes the Cactus part worth it.

Straw - incredible amount of work to plant a rose...hopefully Purple's Ogre will be a great rose in that hard won spot.

Zepherine Drouhin has graced me with a total of like four blooms in five years. Lamarque, who shares her trellis, absolutely never stops, not even during this obscene drought. She's lucky I'm too lazy to have shovel-pruned her by now.

Straw, I can sympathize with you on the hole that wouldn't drain. We have tons of rocks, too, and have the same trouble. Awhile back, we had a hole that wouldn't drain, and you suggested we dig it wider, not deeper. BINGO! Funny how that works! We've never had any problem with holes dug that way, even during last springs non-stop down pour.

Straw, I just read your name for my old Stanwell Perpetual - Standstill Perpetual. Very appropriate and accurate. He's long gone and replaced with Life of the Party, which I LOVE. I always said he belonged in the Cacti family. Pruning, and especially deadheading, were painful chores.

flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA Happy to hear from you !! Glad that Life of the Party survived zone 5 winter. I'm temped to buy Young Lycidas as own root (my grafted-on-dr.Huey died through my zone 5a winter). How's your Young Lycidas? Thanks for the info.

lyannastarknola Zeph. Drouhin is a bourbon, and it needs winter-chill like my zone 5a. I also prune it short. I keep it at 3 feet max after its massive spring flush. But I let it grow in the spring up to 4 feet for blooming.

lyanna - ugh about your Zephirine Drouhin. It's not worth the effort for you to grow it. Can you think of a rose you're dying to get that would fill ZD's spot? Mine got powdery mildew, but I think it's from overwatering. Since I've slowed down on the watering it's started to grow healthy leaves.

Straw - I'm going to try to grow my ZD on its trellis, but if it doesn't do well, I may just chop it down like you've done. I think that would be beautiful!

Carol: how's your ZD doing? hopefully it won't fall asleep ZZZZ.

Purple Ogre (Purple Lodge) redeems itself, nice color in late fall. Never see blackspots despite poor drainage clay. If I had bought the 4.5 feet long trench spade earlier, I could had prevented very slight mildew in hot August. The foliage is super-clean & beautiful in late fall. Scent is very nice.

This is one of the all time greats Straw, I have to go back through the posts again.

Earlier today I was thinking of asking my neighbor if she would like to shovel prune the rose I gave her, i would not be offended at all.

Still at the top of my list is Autumn damost crud, the four reasons rose - regret wanting it, regret buying it even more, regret ever planting it out of obligation, and dread having to dig the thorny thing out.

berrypiez6b Was there another name for Autumn crud, like Awesome Cactus since it's so thorny? I regret buying Prairieville Prince since the color is a big disapointment.

Below are some pics. of Planet Prince or Prairieville Prince (it occupies the entire planet if possible). Pics were taken as 1st-year-own root throwing 3 feet long octopus canes. Now it's throwing 6 feet long octopus canes as 2nd-year-own-root. The pic. at ARE site shows ORANGE blooms, and I'm disappointed that my blooms are pale pinks.

Below is also 1st-year-own-root Planet Prince, thorns are twice bigger & more scary as 2nd-year-own-root. A friend in Texas will kill hers since it gets too big. Mine occupies the former space of a tree.

Straw , Autumn Damask's blooms really are awesome, but the thorns are more atrocious by the year - cactus could learn from her. It even grows ghastly wiry thin canes, absolutely covered with thorns from the base that make it the ultimate formidable rose adversary.

Wow Planet Prince IS scary - on a windy day you wouldn't want to be near it for fear of getting whipped. I almost bought the scaryvillain awhile back, but read your comment just in time ! The good thing about evil roses is how satisfying it is to see them go. I will gladly give my neighbor a better rose if she would part with Awesome Cactus. We work together a few times a year to cut the vicious thing back.

Anxious to order another , I had forgotten William shakes 2000 spears.

BELOW ARE SOME BIG BLOOM AWARDS up to 5" across:

Abraham Darby gets bigger bloom than Evelyn (tends to do cluster blooming). Below is Abraham Darby's bloom at 5 inch. across. Abraham occupies 1/2 the space of Evelyn and doesn't require as much acidic rain like Evelyn to bloom.

Below Peter Mayle's bloom surpasses 5 inch., but less petals:

Below orange Solitude bloom is also 5 inch. across:

Below Augusta Luis bloom is over 4" across:

Below Stephen Big Purple (1st-year Roses Unlimited own-root) can give 5 inch. bloom across:

Firefighter can also get to 5" bloom across:

On-line info mentioned roses with large blooms: Paul Neyron, Oshun, Large than life, Peter Mayle, Chicago Peace, Medallion, Charles Darwin.

Charles Darwin bloom was small for me (got rid of it thanks to faded color). But Paul Neyron bloom got large up to 5 inch., see below Paul Neyron and left is Firefighter:

Magnificent blooms ! My little Abe Darby blooms never got that big, maybe this 3rd year if it gets more fish fertilizer.

I'd like to see Firefighter in person, it sounds like an exceptional rose. I saw Stephen's Big Purple on sale today at Heirloom's, it really stood out but I didn't know enough about it.

berrypiez6b Own-root Stephen Big Purple did better with my alkaline tap water at pH 9 than with tons of acidic rain at pH 4.5. It survived eight zone 5 winters since it was under a roof-overhang that blocked 80% of rain. Then it died and I bought 2 more and both died in the 1st year being exposed to tons of rain.

OWN-ROOT Big Purple is best for dry climate and alkaline tap-water. Below was Big Purple when it was 1st-year-own-root (band-size), watered with my alkaline tap water and under a roof-overhang that blocked out 80% rain.

It's just gorgeous- such classic petal structure.

My Reine des Violettes blooms pretty good , I'd like another purple someday. Diane highly recommends Young Lycidas , it looks like the ticket with it's outstanding fragrance.

Next Summer I want to experiment with a few fancy Sunflower varieties . Then in Fall, I should get serious about reducing my garden back down from 20 to just a dozen roses , less would be even better. It will be hard , they're all the best in their own way. If I can find good homes for them it will be a joy.

Straw - I got rid of my Zepherine Drouhin. Didn't do much at all, and I have no patience. lol. I'm not into climbers anyway. Wowza!! Your Big Purple, Peter Mayle, Paul Neyron and Abraham Darby blooms are HUGE!! I'm in love with you PM and BP!!

Berrypie - I love your clever response about Autumn Damask crud. :) :)

Rosy Carpet - Rosie Cop It. My dog Rosie had to have very expensive eye surgery after a thorn scratched her cornea.

Trish, was that recently? I'm sorry to read that about Rosie. I hope her eye is OK.

Here's Big Purple again from the Way Back machine. I grew two of the large plants, both grafted and from Palatine purchased around 2010-12. I've forgotten. Diane

For some reason the super huge blooms don’t aways do it for me but I’ve been watching RVR forever to see if they ever restock Oshun-that is one I’d really like to try

Tina, I'm the same. Bigger is not necessarily better. One of my favourite roses is Mutabilis. And I love Marlorena's Tottering-By-Gently and Lark Ascending. Also, Diane's Dainty Bess. Thanks for your comment on the other thread about Mme Lombard. She can be beautiful.

Diane, it was about 6 months ago. She was fine immediately after the op. I'm enjoying your Way Back machine!

And I loved ZD's blooms - and fragrance. There was something about the wavy petals that turned my heart, but it was another BS mess here too.

Love your Big Purple! I love those large blousy blooms the best.

Trish, I’ve wanted Marlorena’s Tottering by Gently for quite awhile but now it’s finally coming in the spring! I’ve got The Lark Ascending and Dainty Bess but although I’ve looked at Mutabilis many times, I’ve always worried it would it would get too big for the very few spots I have left for it

@OuOu. @ouour. rr. @oursteelers 8B PNWPNW, Dante Bess Be delicate in flower , but she can be a thug of a plant. I'll see if I can dig up my Picture of her from a garden in Santa Fe. I'm assuming this is a climbing version because it's climbing ' tall! 20' tall!

oursteelers 8B PNW I also admire Tottering by Gently .. I'm a sucker for cheerful yellow.

berrypiez6b For cold zone or dry climate, OWN-ROOT Big Purple is many times more vigorous than GRAFTED Young Lycidas. Big Purple survived 8 winters under a roof-overhang that blocked most of the rain, versus Young Lycidas died immediately in its 1st winter.

GRAFTED Young Lycidas died immediately in my RAINY zone 5, and the GRAFTED Young Lycidas also died fast on Andrea (Floweraremusic) zone 5 & drier alkaline clay.

For cold climate, OWN-ROOT Big Purple is many times more vigorous than GRAFTED Young-Lycidas, shown below (GRAFTED Young Lycidas is a bit larger than a petunia !!)

Below was Big Purple in 2nd year as OWN-ROOT:

Stephen's Big Purple certainly is a powerhouse purple. My garden needs some deeper colors ; the house siding is tan so the light colored roses become camouflaged and disappear.

If the small Post Falls nursery would like to trade some dirt for my paler roses , the flower beds I thought were done can be redone. I'm glad there is more work to do.

Trish - poor Rosie, that must have hurt so bad. Evidently dogs can get rose thorn disease just like people. Every day i look for pieces of the roses that could blow across the yard, afraid my dog might get thorns in her feet. She sometimes likes to smell the roses , it makes me nervous.

Diane - wow!! Big Purple did wonderfully for you!!

Straw - swoon over your Big Purple!!! Mine never looked that good...not even close.

rosecanadian (Carol): With my 160 own-root varieties and comparing to the same roses (grafted at rose parks) .. OWN-ROOTS give BIGGER BLOOMS even as 1st year own root.

My 1st bloom of tiny-band-size-own-root Abraham Darby was more than 3 inch. across, versus much smaller blooms on GRAFTED Abraham Darby at rose park. Their Abraham Darby is over 6 feet tall, and it's LESS EFFICIENT for water to travel up a grafted-bud-union plus super-tall canes.

Below are some very 1st BIG BLOOMS on tiny-band-size own-roots: HUGE bloom on Abraham tiny own-root (band-size):

Huge 1st boom on Annie L. McDowell's band-size own-root, 1st year:

Big bloom on tiny Crimson Glory hybrid tea (band-size own-root).

Below bouquet has 2 FIRST big blooms on 1st-year OWN-ROOTS: Veteran's Honor and Pink Peace.

Below are BIG BLOOMS from 1st-year OWN-ROOT Radio Times (cluster of 3 blooms):

Big purple gives BIGGER BLOOMS as 1st-year own-root than Evelyn (pinks) below:

It's misleading to compare own root roses in your own yard with grafted roses planted somewhere else, since a hundred years of data on grafted roses has shown that they generally produce more robust plants with more, larger flowers than an own root plant of the same variety.

Understock roots provide more "push" to the scion. We've known this for decades.

If you're seeing larger blooms on your own root plants, it's solely because they're getting better care than the grafted ones in the park, NOT because own root plants are more capable.

Oh, Straw - those are outrageously gorgeous!! :) :) SWOON!

Paul Barden It depends on the VIGOR of certain own-root roses. ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL. Older hybrid teas are wimpy and best as grafted. Newer own-roots and most Austin and Meilland roses are vigorous and can easily compete with grafted roses.

I'm stingy in fertilizer and water, so I cannot provide enough for a 6 feet tall grafted-rose to produce big blooms, but I can easily provide enough water & fertilizer for a 1 foot tall own-root.

I have the SAME varieties of Pink Peace, Heirloom, and Angel Face as grafted-on-Dr.-Huey versus own-roots IN THE SAME SOIL.

VIGOROUS own-root Pink Peace provides bigger blooms and BETTER SCENT than my other GRAFTED Pink Peace (many times taller). It takes an ungodly amount of water and potassium (regulates osmosis) to pump up water that tall.

I won't post the pic. of my 4 feet tall grafted-Pink Peace, it's a blackspot-mess. Below is my tiny OWN-ROOT Pink Peace with big blooms and MUCH HEALTHIER.

Below huge bloom with many petals was 1st-year-own-root Pink Peace:

In contrast, WIMPY own-root Jude the Obscure gives less petals than the grafted-Jude at rose park, but equally big blooms. My WIMPY own-root Angel Face and Heirloom give tiny blooms and can never catch up with the same ones as grafted-on-Dr.Huey.

Some own-roots start out as tiny plants with tiny blooms, but in a few years, they catch up with any grafted-rose (of the same variety).

Some VIGOROUS own-root easily beat grafted-roses in 1st year. It's a long wait for grafted-roses to grow leaves, but at least I get blooms IMMEDIATELY on own-root roses.

Below is 1st-year huge bloom on VIGOROUS own-root Sweet Mademoiselle:

Below is the vigor of Sweet Mademoiselle as 2nd year own-root at 7 feet x 4 feet across in 4 hours of morning sun, in my zone 5 garden:

My best & biggest bloom and most petals of VIGOROUS Dee-lish was when it's 1st-year own-root, small enough to maximize the amount of fertilizer & water given. I don't get big blooms in its 9th year since the bush gets too big for the amount of nutrients given. I moved it before winter and its OWN-ROOT is many times bigger than any rootstock.

Same with VIGOROUS Savannah, it was a beast as 1st-year-own-root at over 5 feet, and easily produce LARGE blooms as 1st-year-own-root. Now as 8th-year-own-root, the bush gets too big, and it's too costly to douse it with potassium to get large blooms.

Same with THORNLESS Yves seedling, bred by Robert Neil Rippetoe. It gave the best & biggest blooms as 1st and 2nd year-own-root, when it had cluster-roots which could extract water & nutrients efficiently. Now as 10th-year-own-root, root becomes woody & chunky (like Dr.Huey-rootstock), thus LESS efficient in getting water & nutrients for big blooms. Below is 4 inch. bloom in its 2nd year on THORNLESS Yves seedling:

Yves seedling could do this only in its 2nd year with cluster-root, but less productive as its roots become chunky & woody in its 10th year. Yves Seedling is prone to blackspots, its root matures too fast and becomes chunky & woody with less cluster root to extract nutrients.

GRAFTED the Dark Lady was a small bush at Chicago Botanical Garden, but with small blooms. I saw workers there being very generous with their watering, and NOT stingy like me. Below is GRAFTED the Dark Lady at Chicago Botanical Garden, note the small bloom:

Below is my own-root The Dark Lady, which consistently produces LARGE BLOOMS since its 1st year as own-root (bought in 2015). The bush stays small at 1.5' x 2'. Never see blackspots, so I suspect its own-root stay cluster-root longer to handle my tons of acidic rain.

Cluster-roots (young own-roots and annual flowers) are more efficient than woody & chunky root in extracting water and nutrients.

See below THE FIRST BLOOM of The Dark Lady as 1st-year-own-root (gallon-size):

Blooms stay big even as 9th-year-own-root. Left is W.S. 2000, middle pink is Radio Times (small bloom from a cluster of 6 buds), and biggest red is The Dark Lady at 5" across:

A note to own-root growers: Always take pic. of blooms of 1st-year-own-root, since blooms won't be as big later on. My best & most petals and biggest blooms came from in 1st-year-own-root Golden Celebration in 2011 when it had more cluster roots.

From its 2nd year to 13th-year-own root, Golden Cel's root is too woody & chunky to produce large blooms.

Golden Celebration is prone to blackspots, and its vigorous root matures too fast into chunky & woody with less cluster-roots to extract nutrients.

Its bloom as 1st-year-own root was biggest & most petals ... I regret that I didn't take a pic. back in 2011. Below was Golden Celebration bloom as 2nd year own-root at 5" across:

Below was a large bloom of Big Purple seen through my window screen, when it was a young-cluster own-root:

Below big blooms were 1st-year-own-root Firefighter in my clay soil. 2nd-year blooms are smaller due to cluster-roots become woody & chunky and less efficient in getting nutrients.

Below 1st bloom from 1st-year-own-root (gallon size) Firefighter was 5 inch across:

We see what we want to see.

The amount of rainfall and type of soil are factors in varying performance of own-roots.

For high-rain climate like mine and high-calcium & potassium clay for root-growth, own-roots can get big and woody & chunky fast to produce big blooms as 1st-year-own-root.

I also top my roses with a thick wad of horse manure or leaves for winter-protection, so my own-roots below are better-fed than warmer climate.

I have 2 tomato beds: the bed which were NOT topped with a thick wad of leaves through the winter .. these produce smaller and less tomatoes. The bed which were topped with thick wad of leaves through the winter, this produce giant tomatoes. My roses get at least 1 foot of leaves for winter protection in zone 5.

For less-rain climate or less fertile soil, grafted-roses are best. Grafted-roses can spread out further to gather water & nutrients in a drier climate, or less fertile soil.

Below is the tomato bed that's half-filled with leaves in early fall. It gets at least 1 foot of leaves, same with my roses:

Straw - your rose blooms are SWOON-worthy!!! I'm so impressed with how you grow roses!!! GORGEOUS!!!!

rosecanadian I'm impressed with your roses in pots since growing roses in pots is much harder than in the ground. Carol, WHAT IS YOUR NOMINATION for the best roses in pot for you multiflora-rootstock?

I grow ALL my 1st-year-own-root roses in pots, and it's constant work to top pots with more soil & fertilizer to neutralize the heavy rain here. Heavy rain leaches out nutrients from pots, so I have to fertilizer more often.

I am also impressed with Jim in zone 6, PA for his restraint and hard work in growing roses. Like you, Jim post amazing bush-shots of lots of blooms and healthy leaves. What I learn from Jim: The secret of growing good roses is: HAVING FEWER roses, but giving them more water & fertilizer & care.

My roses in air-pots do much better than in my poor-drainage clay, so all 1st-year-own-roots are in air-pots, except for water-hog Austin roses (in regular 3-gallon pots)

Below are my regular pots ($3 plastic ones, 3 gallon size), they hold the band-size roses. I transfer all of them into the ground since pots don't survive my zone 5 winter. Below pic. was taken July 14, 2022.

The lowest pot is Sonia Rykiel, very fast growth from a tiny rooting-exchange received in May. Rightmost pot is Well Being, received as a band in mid-May from LongAgoRoses.

Augusta Luis, Sonia Rykiel and Well Being get my vote as FASTEST GROWTH own-roots, along with Abraham Darby and Perfume de Paris (super shiny & glossy foliage) in below pic:

Straw - your roses all look so healthy!! I love them!!! :) :) I'm really glad that your air pots are working so well!! Hmmmm....best roses on multiflora rootstock for pots...White Licorice, Sweet Delight, Nicole Carol Miller, Parade Day, Chandos Beauty, Chartreuse de Parme, Gruaud Larose, Perfume Factory, Anne Marie, La Fontaine aux Perles and Stainless Steel. :) :)

Straw, I’m intrigued by your air pots. I know our climates are totally different, but is one of these “really” big enough to hold a rose that might otherwise go in a (plastic) half-barrel? How are the air pots working out for you, when compared to conventional containers?

Air-pots are best for high-rain climate (38 inch. per 7 months of zone 5 growing season).

It's good for drought-tolerant roses such as Dr-Huey-rootstock, and VERY THORNY roses such as Mary Magdalene or Crimson Glory (these need fast drainage).

Air-pots are great to transfer own-roots into the ground: I simply take out the outer wall, and pull the roots out with zero damage.

Air-pots ARE NOT good for less-rain climate since water flows out of the zillion of holes on the side of air-pots.

Air-pots ARE NOT good for water-hog Austin roses, low-thorn own-roots or roses with glossy foliage .. these like it soaking wet such as regular plastic containers.

Hoang Ton in constant-rain Florida has success with his 12 to 15 gallon air-pots (on wheels) with roses GRAFTED ON DR.HUEY (prefer fast drainage).

I like 7-gallon air-pots for band-size or gallon own-root-roses in my heavy rain climate and flash flood.

I don't like the 12.5 gallon airpots, these are VERY HEAVY and if I move them, I risk damaging the very flimsy plastic wall. Below was Purple Lodge, grown from a tiny band-size after 2 months in air-pot .. very fast root growth for own-roots. Purple lodge is more drought-tolerant so it likes the air-pot, but the water-hogs-roses refuse to bloom in drier air-pots:

Below is the set-up for 7-gallon airpot. I insert the flexible rectangular wall around the base, then screw the sides together with the given screws. There are zillion of holes that water flow out during heavy rain. If I pour water too fast in the airpot, I lose lots of water coming out from its zillion of holes both at bottom and all over the side.

Thanks strawchicago z5 and Awesome roses!

Interesting info on those Air pots!

I'll be trying my luck with WS 2000 in a pot...

Thanks. Straw. I have Munstead Wood in the ground, so not that one. I’ll probably go with my old favorites in that case.
Overwatering is a REAL problem with

Bands and minis. Last year I lost two for that reason. Maybe when next year’s Burlington order arrives, I’ll try the 7gal. size. I have several minis in mind.