Covid increases in Europe along with a reasonable response

Ann

No talk of new lockdowns and little and reasonable alarm. Sounds so free of political posturing. Very interesting article! IMO, the Swedish model is looking better and better as the world progresses with Covid.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/coronavirus-spikes-spain-france-u-k-raise-specter-second-wave-n1239454


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HamiltonGardener

Basically, they are all going to the Sweden model. Flatten the curve. Seems to be working for them, but they don’t seem to be as fearful...

I may just hijack your thread with an “off topic” later...if you don’t mind.

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Ann

HG, it's been a terrible virus, but I think most of the world overreacted with the whole shutdown thing and, in the U.S., the current political battle/contest/tactics is preventing openings in many a state IMO. The school situation is the most frustrating to me as I think it's so unhealthy for our children to have their best interests put in the middle of a harsh election battle/competition. Of course this is just my view, but kids need to be in school and the country needs to accelerate its openings. We flattened the curve and the only shutdowns that I think made good sense were shutdowns like Italy and NYC. Hospitalizations got too high to reasonably handle in the hardest hit areas. Short shutdowns made sense in a few limited areas. But I think country after country went too far, did too much shutdown damage, and didn't gain (and maybe actually lost) from the prolonged shutdowns (still underway in many places).

Of course I don't mind your always polite and appropriate "off topics"! They're a nice diversion on HT!

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HamiltonGardener


Well, at first shutdowns were necessary because the virus was already widely circulating before we were really wise to how widespread it was. We needed to check it’s growth.

But after that, the problem we saw was our failure (collective “our”) to keep the vulnerable protected. Italy, Spain, Sweden, NY...all places which actually placed people with mild COVID into care homes with the elderly. Horrible mistakes were made at first, but most places have placed proper infection controls on these facilities.

But I agree with the article that the curve is now flattened in most places, and we should concentrate on regional outbreaks now.

That said, in spite of the lockdowns in the USA, the death rates have not followed the containment as in these other countries. I have posted the charts before but they are available at Worldometer.

Your thoughts on why the deaths are not under control in the USA, and maybe it speaks to the need for at least partial (regional?) continued lockdowns?


And the off topic part will happen later. Four more days until I am back in Portugal and can give you a firsthand rundown of the attitudes in that part of the world.

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Ann

That will be interesting HG. I read an article this morning about a new trend of travel shaming.


https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/travel-shaming-pandemic/index.html

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Ann

Here is a U.S. daily death chart. 286 today, about 2700 in late April.

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HamiltonGardener

Interesting article.

But travel shaming is not a new trend, really. This is just a new justification for travel shaming.

In the past, I have been shamed for the carbon footprint involved. Airplanes are carbon emitters.

Before that, it was for the cause of social equity. The money I spend on travel could be given to the poor.

Nothing new.

I do notice, however, that all these people are being shamed over social media. I don’t have Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

but I think most of the world overreacted with the whole shutdown thing

193,000+ deaths in the US isn't enough??

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The increase in Covid cases has most definitely been politicized in Italy.

The far-right Lega is accusing refugees of increasing the number of cases, but government studies show that Italians returning from abroad are responsible for the majority of the increase.

Now how to handle this Covid hot potato will cause yet another far-right temper tantrum in hopes of bringing down the current coalition government.

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palisades_

They assume the second wave won’t be as bad because perhaps the first wave took down most of the weak and old people with comorbidities.

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Ann

"But I agree with the article that the curve is now flattened in most places, and we should concentrate on regional outbreaks now.

That said, in spite of the lockdowns in the USA, the death rates have not followed the containment as in these other countries. I have posted the charts before but they are available at Worldometer."

Here is where these other countries mentioned in your comment (and NY, also mentioned in your comment) stand as of today. If you're right that the U.S. has a death rate that is not following "containment", I expect we'll see these per million numbers escalate in the U.S. in comparison to these other countries.

Italy - 588 deaths per million

Spain - 631 deaths per million

Sweden - 577 deaths per million

NY - 1701 deaths per million

U.S. - 585 deaths per million

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

Just replying to Hamilton Gardener. I might have posted the following before....

One of the the best Phantoms in Phantom of the Opera was Donald Cant. A guy from Canada. My opinion backed up by the Dragon Woman.

When he gave concerts in Australia. He used to ask "are there any Canadians in the Audience" He then said the usual response was none!

Not the world's greatest travellers, perhaps because the overseas holiday adventure was getting past those unfriendly border guards guarding wacky and wonderful to the south. Maybe they went to France? Met few on my travels.

Maybe they took notice of wacky extreme lefties?

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heri_cles

Ann: Wearing masks was not and is not reasonable according to DT.




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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

More on Travel Shaming. LOL. Many are guilty in the Commie/Socialist Paradise in the South Pacific.

Including myself. I just obeyed orders given by the Dragon Woman. "Do not say anything or I'll Thump you". This was in pre Trump days.

When we did the travel shaming things I like to think that our Aussie Pesos might have helped the locals.

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heri_cles

Ann: Good article providing some insight as to why the death rate of those who have tested positive has dropped. Common sense would indicate that was going to happen for no reason other than the fact that more young people are getting and spreading it yet they will not die from it at the same rate as their parents and grandparents do.... people like you and I Ann.

COVID-19 Cases Are Rising, So Why Are Deaths Flatlining?


Beyond the Trump/ Fox Newz "death rate" election narrative there are known and unknown complications that have impacted younger people post Covid-19 infection.

Post Covid fatigue syndrome is the least of those lingering effects, but it is not insignificant.

Yoan Moncada , a professional baseball player in his twenties and in prime condition has been experiencing Post Covid fatigue as have a few other professional athletes. Worse than that:


From ‘brain fog’ to heart damage, COVID-19’s lingering problems alarm scientists


Then of course there is the fact that over 190,000 have died so far this year from Covid-19.

How many is acceptable? 500,000 ? One Million?

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HamiltonGardener

Arthur,

We meet quite a number of fellow Canadians in Europe, but if you want to find travelling Canadians, you have to look south of our country. Florida, Cuba, Mexico, scattered across the Caribbean...

Most Canadians travel for an escape from the cold. That is their motivation. Also not sure how many are looking to attend concerts by Donald Cant on vacation...lol

Can’t really speak as to Australia, I haven’t been there so don’t know how many are vacationing there. I’d love to visit but it’s a deadly long flight.

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Nana H

Australia is a very popular destination for Canadian young people traveling after university. They land in Australia for a few months and then proceed to the South pacific. My daughter was gone a year altogether 5 months of which were in Australia. She loved it ......but no, would not likely have attended a Donald Cant concert! LOL

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HamiltonGardener

When I was in university, a long flight probably wouldn’t have bothered me. Not much bothered me then. I didn’t wake up with old woman creaks and cracking every morning.

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Nana H

I sure couldn't do the flight. We were considering cruising there......maybe someday.

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Ann

"Beyond the Trump/ Fox Newz "death rate" election narrative"

The death rate is the death rate, not a "narrative", with few exceptions. I don't think we've ever known or ever will know the death rate from China. The death rate in the U.S. has been pretty close to that of Sweden, Spain, Italy, and the UK.

Within the U.S., the death rate has varied considerably, with New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Louisiana on the very high end and Montana, Maine, Vermont, Wyoming, and Hawaii on the very low end. For example, in New Jersey, the death rate per million is approximately 30 times greater than the death rate per million in Wyoming and Hawaii. So, we've had tremendous variation among our 50 states!

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batyabeth

here in Israel we've had a huge increase, yesterday there were 3,000 new cases in a country of 8 million. People just won't follow directives. The whole country is declared red. Thousands of covidiots going to weddings, synagogues, parties, because why shouldn't I have 600 at my wedding? "Covid is just a government plot against me." No masks, no distancing, no cooperation, "let's see how I can get away with being selfish and stupid, 'cause the rest of you are chumps." I would LOVE to travel overseas, but no country in Europe will accept Israelis, and coming back from anywhere in the world means the police will check on you for a two week quarantine after returning. I don't have over a month off to fly to the US, quarantine for two weeks, then turn around and do it again for another 2 weeks when I get back, all the while seeing no one while I'm there cause I'm in quarantine!

We could stop this worlwide or country wide in a month by being cooperative and careful. But no, it's a socialist plot or oppressive to the Orthodox. Or a democratic agenda or the first step in the new world order to take away our freedoms. Idiots.

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Ziemia(6a)

If we had a national response plan, localities would have better guidance on how to see and manage hit spots.

Texas, hiwever, did not follow the guidelines (Trump did pressure.them to do what they did) and opened too soon and so experienced hot spots needlessly.

I do *think* too many places shut down hard in March. It was scary back then - insufficient testing, 'best practices' were sorely lacking, the seriously ill (with Covid-19) not getting immediate treatment (not sick enough).

But there were many places with zero cases and there was no need for them to shut down AS LONG AS the asymptomatic infecteds stayed away.

AND the limited list of stats represent the places either where they were hit early OR did the Sweden thing. So many places have way fewer deaths and they DO NOT have the medical resources that Trump's America has.

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Ziemia(6a)

PS there has been a positive correlation between opening bars and new hot spots. So, many places are close to fully open tho with social distancing & masks with the exception on bars.

Or is the requirement for masks and distancing a needless caution now? (Because social distancing is, in a way, a partial shut down.)

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Nana H

Hindsight is usually 20/20, or at least much better than seeing into the future.

Back in March we knew next to nothing, people were getting sick and dying at alarming rates, we had no idea how to control, combat or treat ...it was a darn scary time.The only thing we knew that would help is a lockdown...and it worked.

We now know so much more. We do know how to better control , combat and treat. Even still ignorant people refuse to listen to the experts and do what is necessary to move us forward quickly and positively,

We have met the enemy and he is us......

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catspa_zone9sunset14

As realization dawns that a major unknown is the rate of permanent disablement from Covid-19 (given lingering symptoms in from at least 10% to 35% of those infected but not hospitalized), "flattening the curve" might have been a reasonable first-order response but may not be a workable long-term objective for avoiding having large numbers of people become disabled and unable to work or enjoy life.

Effects on the heart (and blood vessels) seem especially common, to as-yet unknown long-term effect: But other patients are affected without apparent risk factors: A paper this week in JAMA Cardiology found that 78 of 100 people diagnosed with COVID-19 had cardiac abnormalities when their heart was imaged on average 10 weeks later, most often inflammation in heart muscle. Many of the participants in that study were previously healthy, and some even caught the virus while on ski trips, according to the authors. source

People copping blasé, attitudes about contracting the disease thus seem, at best, foolish. As a side-note, how easily the disease is transmitted, including, as is now virtually certain, by lingering aerosols, is illustrated by this study of two groups of people traveling in two separate buses to visit a temple in China in the early days of the pandemic. One bus had one infected woman who infected 23 others during the 50-minute bus trip, including people sitting many rows away from her. Nobody on the second bus became infected.

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maifleur03

On the BBC website this morning the government is still considering lockdowns. Not national lockdowns but regional or area specific.

This area's infections and deaths continue to rise however not as many are being tested for free. Highest number of daily deaths was Saturday.

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Ann

"Hindsight is usually 20/20, or at least much better than seeing into the future.

Back in March we knew next to nothing, people were getting sick and dying at alarming rates, we had no idea how to control, combat or treat ...it was a darn scary time.The only thing we knew that would help is a lockdown...and it worked.

We now know so much more. We do know how to better control , combat and treat. Even still ignorant people refuse to listen to the experts and do what is necessary to move us forward quickly and positively,

We have met the enemy and he is us......"

I know, March was a scary time. Masks were uncommon and I remember being one of the first to wear one to a grocery store during that early morning senior shopping hour. My family members had March trips planned and canceled all of them. But others in our country, were still carrying on as normal with their previously made March plans. Maybe as you said, Nana, "Even still ignorant people refuse to listen to the experts and do what is necessary to move us forward quickly and positively".

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elvis

When he gave concerts in Australia. He used to ask "are there any Canadians in the Audience" He then said the usual response was none!

Interesting, Arthur. We have several posters here who talk about visits to other countries, but they don't mention visiting Australia. Wonder why?

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Ann

We've talked about going there someday, Elvis, but it's a really long flight so I'm guessing we might not ever make that trip.

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Tito Milian

Ann, March was a terribly frightening time in Florida when Covid was increasing and showing up in every state. We had to be there but got out as soon as possible! You’d have to be crazy to have traveled in March other than an absolute emergency!

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

“No talk of new lockdowns and little and reasonable alarm.”


Not sure where that impression comes from. There’s plenty of talk of new lockdowns and there are already lots of local ones in place and in the offing. .

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

"off the beaten track" and that long plane trip across the Pacific Ocean is torture in Cattle Class.

I can understand why Canadians would opt to go and lie on a beach in the Florida Sun.

As for the world wide disaster. History will record whether the Swedish Model was the best way to go.

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jmm1837

The plane trip isn't as bad as it used to be. At least you no longer have to do a fuel stop in Honolulu. The last time I did that, it was a nightmare. Now it's just a straight flight to Vancouver. About 17 hours from Melbourne, less from Sydney or Brisbane.


Australia gets a lot of Canadians on working holiday visas, and of course plenty of cruise passengers (or did), but it's not a cheap holiday. Hotels and restaurants are expensive, as are domestic flights. Once we get out of our current lockdown, we're thinking about a small ship cruise (100 passengers) across the Top End (Broome to Darwin) with a side trip to Arnhemland. We've done the Kimberly by land (one of the best trips ever) but doing it by sea would be pretty special too.

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maifleur03

Curious as to why people feel safer now than in March. The rate of infection should be about the same for people who have not had it.

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Nana H

Maifleur, I think, at least for me, it is because so much more is known and known is always less scary than unknown. I know now that I can take concrete steps to protect myself and my family and it works.

I also know that my fellow Canadians are, to a very large degree, cooperating with those protocols...and without a lot of grumbling.

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HamiltonGardener

Jmm,

Then another 5 hours from Vancouver to Toronto....

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Nana H

Uuugggh......we flew from to Toronto to LA to Tahiti and I thought I would go nuts....DH at 6'2" was not a happy camper. As I said upthread if we go it will be by ship.

BTW Air Tahiti Nui was probably one of the best airlines I have ever flown.

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terezosa / terriks

My mother took a month+ cruise from San Francisco to Australia and the South Pacific.

Personally, I prefer the 15 hr flight over days at sea. (a Xanax helps 😁)

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Ann

"As for the world wide disaster. History will record whether the Swedish Model was the best way to go."

Agreed. We're already learning a lot and, even a year from now, we'll know a lot more.

Right now, there is actual data from many a location - that gives us different and sometimes even competing lessons. If second waves are popping up in areas of Europe where significant shutdowns previously took place and the numbers now end up spiking, while numbers in Sweden don't spike, we'll have even more info.

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Ziemia(6a)

Well, France has been expanding the mandatory use of masks.

I missed new demands for new lockdowns / shutdowns. Where have they occurred?

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elvis

Ann

We've talked about going there someday, Elvis, but it's a really long flight so I'm guessing we might not ever make that trip.

Same here, Ann, but I do have a niece over there with National Doctor Flying Team, and I'd like to see her.

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youngquinn_gw

jm1837 we did the kimberly small ship small ship cruise from Darwin to Broome last July 2019. Fantastic trip one of the best of our lives. We went on the Coral Adventurer with 90 passengers.Daily cruising inland along rivers with plenty of opportunity to get out and walk (watch out for crocs) and great information from Marine Biologists and geologists who were on board. I cannot recomment it highly enough

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jmm1837

That was one of the ones we were looking at. We did the land tour a few years ago (with Outback Spirit) and that was stupendous.

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maifleur03

Not yet a lockdown but England has reduced the number of people who can be in a group except for school and work today. More are coming.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54081131

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roxsol

One of the the best Phantoms in Phantom of the Opera was Donald Cant. A guy from Canada. My opinion backed up by the Dragon Woman.

Arthurm, I have seen you mention Donald Cant before. Honestly, I have never heard of him otherwise. I did Google his name to read up on him. The suggested pages made me laugh.

Anyhow, he sounds wonderful!

I would love to visit Australia but the flight is just too long for my comfort.

I am a Canadian that likes to visit places to see things and the weather plays no part in my decision as to where or when I go.

My favourite holiday was flying to Halifax, renting a car for a month and touring the Canadian Maritimes and Newfoundland. The Iceberg Festival in St. Anthony was cancelled due to cold weather and rain Lol.

I’ve enjoyed many places in Europe and South America. Weather has never been a factor for me.

My husband likes to go to sunny places in the winter. I go along with him because it’s only fair ;)

eta No flying for me as long as masks are required on flights :(

HG, enjoy your holiday!

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Ann

I was just checking out worldometer as I do each day. Did Canada just begin a heavy new testing program in recent days? They had a crazy big jump in new cases today. Yesterday was about 250 new cases (and Canada is usually low). But today was about 1600 new cases, which is FAR above any recent day. They haven't had a day like that since early May. That's why I'm wondering about a new testing protocol.

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roxsol

Ann, I think there is much more testing now that school has started but the jump in cases could be because a few provinces, Alberta for sure, doesn’t report over the weekend. What appears to be a jump in cases could be attributed to a four day cumulative figure.

eta Our cases have been going up, though.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Italy's latest emergency decree extends most rules until October 7th

https://www.thelocal.it/20200907/covid-19-italy-extends-rules-until-september-30th-with-new-emergency-decree


The latest set of rules, signed by PM Giuseppe Conte on Monday evening, is the latest in a series of government decrees – formally called a DPCM (Decreto del presidente del consiglio, or 'prime minister's decree') – issued under Italy's coronavirus state of emergency that introduced the sweeping restrictions of the past six months.

The new decree will be valid for 30 days, until October 7th, when ministers will again decide if rules should be extended or revisited.

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roxsol

Ann, todays report. The first in 4 days.

“Alberta (157) - The province reported 157 new cases of COVID-19 from the past 24 hours. Over the past four days the province has added a total of 619 cases. Five new deaths were also reported.“

The five deaths are since Thursday.

And BC

British Columbia (83) - Health officials announced 83 new COVID-19 cases and two additional deaths. In total, the province has added 429 new cases from the past four days.

And Ontario

Ontario (185) - The province reported 185 new COVID-19 cases on Tuesday. During the holiday, there were 190 cases that were logged but not released, bringing the total amount of cases added within two days to be 375.

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jmm1837

Looking at the source of the data, it appears that the Canadian figures include cases from a few days ago, which weren't entered into the system until now. I expect US figures were similarly under reported over the weekend. They usually are.

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Nana H

There has definitely been an increase in certain areas of Ontario but I haven't heard anything even close to that number as a daily spike. I suspect it is ,as others have said, a cumulative number over the long weekend.

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HamiltonGardener

Several provinces have stopped reporting over the weekends, especially this past weekend. It was the long weekend.

We have three days of reporting landing today.



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ubro(2a)

Sask. reports every day to avoid backlogs.

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Ann

I agree U.S. numbers are typically a bit lower on the weekends (yesterday's number of new cases in the U.S. was about 85% of today's number).

There was certainly some (or even most) Canadian reporting over the long weekend (and I'd say by looking at this day by day, fairly typical daily numbers for Sat, Sun, and Mon).

Canada's numbers yesterday were only about 15% of today's number, so that's certainly a huge and very notable change. Maybe they'll account for the huge difference when they release numbers tomorrow.




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roxsol

Ann, August 31, after the weekend it was a count for 3 days for some provinces. Monday (or Tuesday for 4 days this week) is always higher.

Alberta, BC and Ontario, did not report over the weekend. (I’m not sure about Quebec)

eta Numbers are going up, though.

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gettingnowhere

Sept. 8 Canada had a total of 608 new cases. The numbers in certain provinces are increasing, which is concerning. As a result, measures are being taken, BC is ordering the closure of nightclubs, Ont. is putting a pause on loosening up restrictions. Large covidiot parties are problematic . So glad charges are being laid in certain instances.

Love the way Ford expresses his concern and frustrations. “ He pleaded with people to avoid large gatherings.

"It's frustrating because it affects the rest of the province. When asked if he would consider a rollback to the second stage of the province's reopening plan, Ford said he would consult with Ontario's health experts. We aren't there yet," Ford said, but he also noted if infection levels continue to rise, that could change.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102

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roxsol
  • In total, 619 new cases of COVID-19 were reported in Alberta over the long weekend, bringing the province's active case tally to 1,692.
  • CBC News has confirmed 23 schools across the province have identified cases of COVID-19 among their school populations, including nine schools in Calgary.
  • Dr. Deena Hinshaw, Alberta's chief medical officer of health, says since Sept. 1, Alberta Health Services has reported 11 cases were present "while infectious" at 11 schools.
  • There is a new outbreak at the Fairmont Hotel Macdonald in Edmonton, where seven staff have tested positive.
  • On Monday, the province hit a new record for most tests completed in a single day, at 12,561.
  • https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5715668
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Ann

"On Monday, the province hit a new record for most tests completed in a single day, at 12,561."

This is what I'm wondering about. When testing goes up or lots of people feel the need for testing for one reason or another - case numbers go up a bunch. But, a lot of those positive tests may be symptom free young people.

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roxsol

In Alberta, any person who wants to be tested can be tested, even if they don't have symptoms.

There has probably been a lot of testing now that school has started. Sounds good and smart to me.

eta Ann, I’m not sure what you are getting at regarding symptom free young people. It’s good that they are being tested.

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cattyles

The symptom free young people that test positive need to be isolated to not increase the spread. Why is that so hard to understand?

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roxsol

Catty, it seems pretty straight forward to me.

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terezosa / terriks

So long as there are willing host bodies Covid will continue to spread, becayse that's what viruses do. Until there is a vaccine the only way to slow or stop the thread is to deny it hosts.

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

“I missed new demands for new lockdowns / shutdowns. Where have they occurred?”

Spain for one. https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020/08/09/spain-set-to-lockdown-friday-the-18th-september-with-three-phase-system-closing-borders-with-france-portugal/

We have several local lockdowns here in England and there are also local lockdowns in Scotland, Wales and also in Ireland. As of Monday there’s a new rule, announced only last night, that no more than six people can meet socially in England.

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youngquinn_gw

"When testing goes up or lots of people feel the need for testing for one
reason or another - case numbers go up a bunch. But, a lot of those
positive tests may be symptom free young people." from Ann

and that is EXACTLY why symptom free young people MUST be permitted get tested if a country is serious about fighting the virus.... The most dangerous thing about this virus is that it can be very mild or the carrier can have no symptoms at all.....that does not stop them from infecting others who may have a massive fight for their lives. It is extremely infectious and can be symptomless.....that is why it is dangerous.

In Australia people who have been tested MUST isolate until they get their test results and they can draw on a $450 payment from the Governmetn if they do not have sick leave to draw on....so they do not lose pay

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Ziemia(6a)

So, is the premise of this thread wrong? Or, only is about PARTS of Europe?

"No talk of new lockdowns and little and reasonable alarm. Sounds so free of political posturing. Very interesting article! IMO, the Swedish model is looking better and better as the world progresses with Covid."

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youngquinn_gw

"“I missed new demands for new lockdowns / shutdowns. Where have they occurred?”" Victoria Australia for another...we have had a second wave and are in hard lockdown....including curfew and only permitted to leave home for 1 hour of excercise (soon to be increased to 2) and essential shopping , medical visits etc. we ahve gone from a high of 725 daily cases to a low 2 days ago of 41...but we will have hard lockdown until we have 14 days of no cases. with police to enforce

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

Ziemia, imo, ‘free from political posturing’ is about the only half way accurate part of that sentence. And, as usual, Europe is treated, inaccurately, as a homogenous entity, rather than a large number of sovereign nations.

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Ann

Roxsol, I'm not getting at anything other than I think the number increase might have more to do with a testing increase than a virus increase. People just didn't know they were Covid positive before.

I agree that testing might be increasing due to school starting.

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Nana H

Ann, not following your logic. Even if it is a result of increased testing if the test is positive then that is a legitimate new case. Yes case numbers will grow with increased testing but that's a good thing. We need to know the real numbers.

Not knowing you don't have it is totally irrelevant. if you have it you have it....better that you should know.

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Ann

"Not sure where that impression comes from. There’s plenty of talk of new lockdowns and there are already lots of local ones in place and in the offing."

The impression comes from the article the OP is about. Did you read it?

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Ann

Nana, as I made clear, when looking at worldometer, the Canadian numbers jumped out as really high yesterday. I'm simply wondering if it's just because of increased testing and thus finding more cases (some that are symptom free). Yes, they are also a positive case number and yes, the case numbers are up. I'm not suggesting testing is a bad thing - I'm suggesting the big and sudden increase might be due to increased testing.

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Nana H

I understand that. What I don't understand is the emphasis on some being symptom free. I am unsure why that matters.

ETA I still haven't read anything that suggests our counts are up as dramatically as the number in the Worldmeter would suggest. I still think it is more likely a case of multiple days reported in one number.

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Ann

If the younger crowd are getting positive results in higher numbers but aren't getting sick, case numbers might go up a bunch, but hospitalizations and deaths might not - plus you might get a higher percentage of useful herd immunity.

I think that's why Sweden is watched so closely. How useful are or were lockdowns in places not hit too hard for hospitals to handle? Sweden will help us determine that.

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Nana H

Ann, what you say is true but it ignores the fact that these young people are still extremely contagious and they come in contact with those more vulnerable. At least if they know they have it they can be quarantined and their contacts traced.


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catspa_zone9sunset14

If the younger crowd are getting positive results in higher numbers but aren't getting sick, case numbers might go up a bunch, but hospitalizations and deaths might not - plus you might get a higher percentage of useful herd immunity.

You also get maybe 10% or more that are potentially permanently disabled, albeit not hospitalized or dead. This is turning out to be a worrisome aspect of this virus (and why herd immunity through infection probably isn't a great strategy).

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elvis

Nana H

Ann, what you say is true but it ignores the fact that these young people are still extremely contagious and they come in contact with those more vulnerable. At least if they know they have it they can be quarantined and their contacts traced.

Ann ignored nothing. She simply pointed out that one can have the virus (of course Ann knows they are contagious!) without actually being ill. This is good to know when making planning decisions for medical services. One would think that point is a no brainer, but apparently not in this crowd.

Ann didn't advocate for less testing, you assumed that was her intent. You' re wrong, I am sure she will correct me if I misread her posts.

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Nana H

"Ann didn't advocate for less testing, you assumed that was her intent."

I assumed no such thing nor did I say I did.

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cattyles

It sounded like she was backing up trump, to me. She echoed his “more testing means more cases” and positive results on young people don’t really matter.

Don’t blame people for inferring what was implied.

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Ziemia(6a)

AGAIN, this virus is insidious. Those younger people without outward symptoms may be experiencing damage to internal organs, like the heart. Some have - we don't yet know the prevalence.

So, not having symptoms ≠ being sick

Ann: "If the younger crowd are getting positive results in higher numbers but aren't getting sick"

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Ann

Elvis, I guess some tried to turn my straightforward words about noticing a very high new number of cases in Canada yesterday - and then guessing maybe a significant rise in testing might be leading to that - as something more than that simple observation followed by a guess as to maybe why.

It was pretty straightforward and simple. In the U.S., as testing became super common for anyone that wanted it - our case numbers got high - but our hospitals didn't get overloaded and deaths were actually going down rather than up.

My personal opinion as time has gone by is that the lockdowns were too extreme and for too long. I think, like someone on this thread or another recently said, herd immunity is about half the "end all" and the vaccine the other half. I am growing more and more fond of the whole "herd immunity" concept, its value, and the importance of it in a country to slow the spread for once and for all instead of a continued repeat of lockdown then open, virus spike, lockdown then open, virus spike, and repeat, repeat, repeat.

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Ziemia(6a)

Herd immunity isn't separate from having the vaccine used. It isn't "the other half".

Herd immunity INCLUDES the use of a vaccine in many diseases (those for which a vaccine exists).

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jmm1837

Exactly. Without the vaccine, there us no meaningful herd immunity, any more than there was with measles back in the 50s.

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Nana H

My only questioning to Ann was about the significance of it being young people and the fact they were less likely to be hospitalized etc. I simply pointed out the contagious factor...nothing more.....nice try.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Ann, so far as I can see you are pushing the idea of Sweden's approach as the better option for dealing with a pandemic. You seem to think that their deaths were acceptable. Let me try this one out on you. How about many modern countries screwed this up big time. We are very lucky in my opinion that Covid isnt more deadly because we let it get to epidemic levels-in other words too late- before doing much of anything at all. If most countries had moved more quickly to contain it a lot of people would still be alive. Lets take Sweden's very demographically similar neighbors for example Norway and Finland with deaths per million around 50 and 60 with Sweden 573. I know where I would want to live. There is no evidence that Sweden's economy did all that great since all their trading partners suffered as well.

Herd immunity is a popular concept because it is used to encourage vaccination. The history of world pandemics of the past where herd immunity is all they had is instructive. Sometimes a third or more of the population would die. Smallpox went through regularly and though only 20% died so fearsome were the side effects, the results of having to rely on herd immunity, people were willing to routinely risk their lives with the often deadly early vaccine of the day in hopes of having a slight case. It gave you smallpox. We dont yet know what the long term effects of Covid-19 are. People with no symptoms are said to have some significant damage which at this point it is impossible to say if it will or will not cause future problems.

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terezosa / terriks

Without the vaccine, there us no meaningful herd immunity, any more than there was with measles back in the 50s.

Except that having measles does confer lifetime immunity. All signs are showing that this isn't true for Covid.

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Ziemia(6a)

Herd immunity derives from 'natural immunity' (from having the disease) AND from immunity through vaccine.

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ubro(2a)

I am growing more and more fond of the whole "herd immunity" concept, its value, and the importance of it in a country to slow the spread for once and for all instead of a continued repeat of lockdown then open, virus spike, lockdown then open, virus spike, and repeat, repeat, repeat.

And what do you say to those people who's family members die for the 'herd' immunity you are so fond of? Those people who had full lives ahead of them despite some pre-existing conditions which, on their own, would not result in their death?

Those who voice support of 'herd immunity' as though there are not real people dying in order to get to that point are, IMO, relegating human lives to the garbage bin with little or no concern. They rant about their personal freedom's and accept the toll of a life so they can have them with nary a care.

My personal opinion as time has gone by is that the lockdowns were too extreme and for too long.

Those regulations and lockdowns have succeeded in slowing this virus and saving lives. It is easy to denigrate them after the fact.

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Ziemia(6a)

The Sweden model relied on government authorization of slowly induced euthanasia for its frail elderly. And they showed no concern for the vulnerable populations (those not frail really old adults).

Denmark didn't.

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jmm1837

"Except that having measles does confer lifetime immunity. All signs are showing that this isn't true for Covid."

Of course. My point was that, even with almost the entire adult population immune from measles, it was still able to circulate and infect the next generation. Herd immunity never arrived from natural infection even with a disease that provided long term immunity. I am very doubtful that it can arrive naturally with Covid, and certainly not without appalling mortality rates.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Having measles usually confers lifetime immunity but I got measles twice back to back and so did one of my sisters. Two separate incidents as my sister got measles many years later and in a different country. I think a big risk for those who are suffering continued side effects is how they will manage if they get it again. If you already have lung or heart damage it would just snowball on you.

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Ziemia(6a)

Agree with jmm...

Please, will all here learn that "herd immunity" does not mean "natural immunity"?

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Ann

"Ann, so far as I can see you are pushing the idea of Sweden's approach as the better option for dealing with a pandemic. You seem to think that their deaths were acceptable."

"I seem to think" in your opinion. You don't need to seem to think anything about my opinions on the topic. I've voiced them in many comments on this thread. Your words here have nothing to do with mine. I've given my opinions in my words. You can give your opinions in your words but when you attempt to reword the comments and thoughts of others by applying your intended slant - the result is a worthless comment IMO.

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Vada(10)

"And what do you say to those people who's family members die for the 'herd' immunity you are so fond of? Those people who had full lives ahead of them despite some pre-existing conditions which, on their own, would not result in their death?

Those who voice support of 'herd immunity' as though there are not real people dying in order to get to that point are, IMO, relegating human lives to the garbage bin with little or no concern. They rant about their personal freedom's and accept the toll of a life so they can have them with nary a care."

How personally cruel those words are toward Ann. She has spoken openly and often about her beloved and extended family, including seniors and children.

If anyone is relegating a fellow human being to the "garbage bin with little or no concern," it is what you are doing to Ann in your post.

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HamiltonGardener

A vaccine is the safest way to herd immunity. It is not the only way, but it’s the best.

However, it depends on widespread acceptance of a vaccine, and the vaccine hesitant and antivax movement is strong.


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HamiltonGardener

Those who voice support of 'herd immunity' as though there are not real people dying in order to get to that point are, IMO, relegating human lives to the garbage bin with little or no concern.


The same could be said of those who refuse a vaccine.


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maifleur03

I too had measles twice. I do not remember the first time but I do remember the time spent in the hospital the second time.

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jmm1837

Ann, since you don't like your words being interpreted, I will simply quote them.


"I think, like someone on this thread or another recently said, herd
immunity is about half the "end all" and the vaccine the other half. I
am growing more and more fond of the whole "herd immunity" concept, its
value, and the importance of it in a country to slow the spread for once
and for all instead of a continued repeat of lockdown then open, virus
spike, lockdown then open, virus spike, and repeat, repeat, repeat."

First, it is extremely unlikely that herd immunity can be achieved by natural means. I've already cited measles as an example of a disease for which there was no natural immunity until the vaccine came along, even though it is more infectious and generates stronger immune responses than Covid does. Vaccines aren't the "other half" to herd immunity, they're critical to it ever being achieved.

Second, your fondness for naturally achieved immunity carries the obvious and inevitable consequence that more people must catch the disease, more people must get sick, some with lifelong consequences, and more people must die. And, bear in mind, the US already has one of the highest death rates in the developed world.

Whether you understand the consequences of what you want, and to what degree those consequences matter to you, is your business. But those are the consequences.

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patriciae_gw(07)

You cant talk about the Swedish Model Looking better and better without saying at the same time the deaths look pretty good/ acceptable? The numbers of deaths in some of the European countries are just as terrible as ours and for the same reason. I know we cant take some counties low deaths at face value but multiple Asian countries have low numbers presumably because they started wearing masks very early-the easiest and least costly method as we now know and still wont properly use because we are dumber than rocks. Places like Australia and New Zealand have done remarkably well and I dont think it is just isolation.

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Ziemia(6a)

Ann (her own word) l"Very interesting article! IMO, the Swedish model is looking better and better as the world progresses with Covid."


The Sweden model relied on government authorization of slowly induced euthanasia for its frail elderly. And they showed no concern for the vulnerable populations (those not frail really old adults).

Denmark didn't. Many others didn't.

Ann (again): "... I think, like someone on this thread or another recently said, herd immunity is about half the "end all" and the vaccine the other half. I am growing more and more fond of the whole "herd immunity" concept, its value, and the importance of it in a country to slow the spread for once and for all instead of a continued repeat of lockdown then open, virus spike, lockdown then open, virus spike, and repeat, repeat, repeat."

Ann, your comment indicates a misunderstanding of herd immunity. This "...herd immunity is about half the "end all" and the vaccine the other half. " is incorrect.

Immunity via vaccine is part of herd immunity. Immunity via vaccine builds up herd immunity along with any natural immunity. For many potentially deadly diseases it is impossible to have herd immunity without vaccines and without a sufficient percentage getting that vaccine.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

This is a world wide disaster with horrible side effects. The lady cleaner (from Peru) told my wife that her Mom and Dad had caught the virus. This was several weeks ago, her mom died yesterday!

Hard times, no getting on a plane to visit or go to a funeral overseas.


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cattyles

Oh the umbrage over one’s own words.

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Ann

Vada, I didn't consider it anything about me. I simply considered it a garbage comment, which is all that kind of comment is.

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Iris GW

The OP was based on a false statement to begin with.

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docmom_gw(5)

I think hopes that vaccines will succeed in helping us achieve herd immunity might be premature. Corona viruses have been the cause of the “common cold” for probably centuries. Science has yet to produce an effective vaccine against the common cold, so I am skeptical that an effective vaccine will be produced to combat this particular strain of coronavirus. And, confirmation of such a vaccine, that has been adequately tested for safety and efficacy, is more than likely to be many months away. So, we need to focus on the measures we know have been effective in slowing the spread of disease—mainly masks and social distancing.


Unfortunately, people don’t seem to be willing to use the methods we have available. I was in a medical clinic this week, and the staff there, including nurses and physicians, would wear masks while in direct contact with patients, but remove them while in their personal office space. Such behavior allows potentially infected breaths to be released into the air of the office, exposing anyone who walks in. Any physician has participated in surgeries during their training. They should know that masks can be worn for many hours without any negative effects. We need to enforce continuous use of masks in all indoor public spaces. Masks can be removed to eat or drink, but that should be done in designated locations, so those who wish can avoid entering high-risk spaces.

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youngquinn_gw

cold hard facts reveal that Herd Immunity via infection is not possible.

Herd Immunity requires a minimum of 60% infected at 330 million citizens that represents 138 million Americans infected. Now even if a tiny percentage require intensive care......even a ridiculously small numbers like , say 1% thats 1.38 million needing intensive care hospitalisation even if you were able to stagger it over a whole 12 months thats over 100 000 Americans needing ICU every month.

(Of course it would be much more likely to increase exponentially)

and that is a very conservative figure.

Does Amercia have 100 000 ICU beds spare?

How many ICU beds does America have in total?

https://sccm.org/Blog/March-2020/United-States-Resource-Availability-for-COVID-19

34.7 per 100 000 of population (NOT ENOUGH)


and of course , even if this figure was enough for the covid patients you need all the capacity for the strokes, surgical cases heart attacks etc etc

This would be a disaster of unprecedented proportions ....quite literally you would not have enough space to stack the dead bodies.

so Please stop believing in this fantasy


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Ziemia(6a)

And please ensure you understand what herd immunity does and doesn't mean. Some here do and too many who are active here don't.

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terezosa / terriks

I believe that there is no vaccine for the common cold because it doesn't make sense economically to develop one. It can cost billions to develop/manufacture a vaccine against a single virus, and there are hundreds of viruses that cause common cold symptoms. The cost, together with the fact that colds are rarely serious, let alone deadly illnesses that people would be willing to be vaccinated against, make it economically infeasible to develop a vaccine against.

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Ann

"Unfortunately, people don’t seem to be willing to use the methods we have available. I was in a medical clinic this week, and the staff there, including nurses and physicians, would wear masks while in direct contact with patients, but remove them while in their personal office space. Such behavior allows potentially infected breaths to be released into the air of the office, exposing anyone who walks in. Any physician has participated in surgeries during their training. They should know that masks can be worn for many hours without any negative effects. We need to enforce continuous use of masks in all indoor public spaces. Masks can be removed to eat or drink, but that should be done in designated locations, so those who wish can avoid entering high-risk spaces."

I'm seeing a change in people too. Some people (including some doc and dentist offices) are now using shields instead of masks and I thought they were supposed to be less effective (with all that open air space around the bottom). I think it's getting harder and harder for businesses to handle because people have lived with this for so long, they are just not fearful as they used to be. I know I'm not. I have been a good mask wearer since early but I'm not at all fearful like I was in the spring. I have no hesitation about living my life - going to a store, a gym, a hair salon, traveling, etc. I even went into an indoor restaurant for the first time yesterday - as it snowed here this week. People in the restaurant had masks on until their food came but as I looked around and noticed - once they came off for eating, they tended to stay off until the people got up to leave - including staying off for the after meal conversation.

I expect my mask usage will go quite a bit longer just as it started early because I'm so used to it now. I feel like I have mask wearing down to an art - with a variety (7 of them), including 3 different types/fits. Some are more comfortable than others and some are better than others for different purposes.

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Ziemia(6a)

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youngquinn_gw

mask wearing is now compulsory in Victoria. with police and army enforcing.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Some people (including some doc and dentist offices) are now using shields instead of masks and I thought they were supposed to be less effective (with all that open air space around the bottom).

A strong indication that these are medical personnel you do not want to trust with your life and health. I went to the dentist last week, and if she had not been wearing a proper N95 mask and otherwise following strict protective protocols, I would have immediately left. Face shields alone would not protect the patient from infection by the dentist, who is exposed, by necessity, to dozens of unmasked people per week at close range and therefore highly susceptible to being infected.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

I think it's getting harder and harder for businesses to handle because people have lived with this for so long, they are just not fearful as they used to be.


Typical faulty probability reasoning and the reason why competent government makes a difference.

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Nana H

Guess it depends where you live and how effective your local leadership is. Fear and anxiety is way down here because the numbers are way down and the protocols are being adhered to across the board.

There is literally 100% compliance and generally without complaint.

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ubro(2a)

How personally cruel those words are toward Ann. She has spoken openly and often about her beloved and extended family, including seniors and children.

If anyone is relegating a fellow human being to the "garbage bin with little or no concern," it is what you are doing to Ann in your post.

I am not the one who is advocating for a model that allows my small freedoms to continue so other people die.

Many of us love and support our families and only supporting safety measures when it affects us or when it affects our family and loved ones is the problem with the 'herd immunity' scenario. Being fine with other peoples loving family members dying is a problem.

I am not relegating Ann to the garbage bin, I am relegating the view of 'herd immunity' to control this pandemic to the garbage bin.

I take offence when people are fine with people like my son, my son in law, my mother, my mother in law being collateral damage in the quest for 'herd immunity' which will never come.


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Ann

"mask wearing is now compulsory in Victoria. with police and army enforcing."

Really? Is the army enforcing "mask wearing" in Victoria? That's certainly interesting (and a bit surprising) to me.

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Ann

"Guess it depends where you live and how effective your local leadership is. Fear and anxiety is way down here because the numbers are way down and the protocols are being adhered to across the board.

There is literally 100% compliance and generally without complaint."

That's great. Sounds like your area is happy to comply. It looks like other areas aren't (or at least they weren't 1 month ago).


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Nana H

"Guess it depends where you live and how effective your local leadership is."

Yes that is what I said....depends on where you live and how effective your local leadership is. I don't live in the Province of Quebec which, by the way, has the worst case level in Canada.


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Ann

And, as I said about your area Nana, "That's great.".

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Kathy

Ann, I am a bit surprised you have quite a Democratic view of the severity of Covid since you are a faithful mask wearer.


Most Republicans I know refuse to acknowledge it is serious enough to wear one. A few have even had Covid and still refuse to wear a mask.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I would expect that the fear of Covid infection would be down now that we have a better understanding of what we are dealing with. When it was an unknown entity fear was rational. The knowledge that the general wearing of fabric masks is so effective, something the research community was originally skeptical of, has greatly lessened the risk for those who show good sense. It is interesting and I think typical that though the risk of being in contact with someone who has covid is much greater than it was back in March when everyone was getting so nervous people now are taking risks. It is sort of like going through four years of war and dying on the last day. The risk was there the whole time.

I see the occasional store person wearing tiny little plastic shields that simply direct the breath upward (!) so as to maximize the time it stays in the air and provides the wearer no protection what so ever. I asked one of them what was the thinking there and she had no answer for me. She was pretty snippy about it. I was just wondering-sort of like the elephant child. She was very much at risk. I was wearing a well fitted cloth mask with a n95 removable filter.

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maifleur03

Interesting thing about those n95 removable filter masks. They protect the wearer but not the people that the wearer comes in contact with. I was surprised because I thought they protected both.

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

I was under the impression that filters were fine but that valves were not since they allow breath out. Are you saying filters don’t work?

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terezosa / terriks

I see the occasional store person wearing tiny little plastic shields that simply direct the breath upward (!) so as to maximize the time it stays in the air and provides the wearer no protection what so ever.

I believe that you are talking about this type of partial shield which is designed for restaurant workers to keep saliva out of food. They are obviously not effective for Covid, and yes, I have seen several people wearing these, usually older women who are probably at higher risk of a bad outcome from Covid.



Interesting thing about those n95 removable filter masks. They protect the wearer but not the people that the wearer comes in contact with

I think that you are talking about the N95 masks with a vent in them that allows the wearer to vent their exhalation out through the mask. Different than a removable filter.

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elvis

Kathy

Ann, I am a bit surprised you have quite a Democratic view of the severity of Covid since you are a faithful mask wearer. Most Republicans I know refuse to acknowledge it is serious enough to wear one. A few have even had Covid and still refuse to wear a mask.

People sure are unpredictable. My "circle" of acquaintances, friends, and family does of course include people of various political bents. Out of the bunch, my ultra-liberal (California transplants) family members are the mask-flouters and social butterflies. Talk about denial, yeesh. Our contact with them since March has had to be from the car window. They just don't get it.

Which, frankly, would be fine during non-gardening season, as there would be little available for civil discussion. Vegetables are one of the few things they (so far) haven't been able to politicize. Lots of anger, no masks.



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Kathy

Patriciae, are you talking about the carbon filter that you put in masks? If not, can you give a source?

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elvis

maifleur03

Interesting thing about those n95 removable filter masks. They protect the wearer but not the people that the wearer comes in contact with.

Wrong.

floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

I was under the impression that filters were fine but that valves were not since they allow breath out

Right.


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Ann

"People sure are unpredictable. My "circle" of acquaintances, friends, and family does of course include people of various political bents. Out of the bunch, my ultra-liberal (California transplants) family members are the mask-flouters and social butterflies."

I agree. I was one of the very, very first people I knew to wear a mask. I thought masks seemed sensible when Fauci was saying they were not needed or helpful. Fauci's words seemed illogical to me as did the narrative that a mask did not protect the person wearing it but only the other person (I thought that sounded absurd).

I have a very liberal acquaintance I run into periodically as we seem to shop at the same stores and frequent some of the same businesses. I happened to run into this person earlier this week and I've seen them about 4 or so times since covid started. Mask usage is apparently not their preference or choice. She finally was wearing one this week in the grocery store (has to in order to shop there), but must have removed it when she exited.

She is quite worked up about this election, she knows I support Trump and she also knows I'm willing to discuss elections as we've had discussions about Trump and about elections over the years since we met. This week, I said hello to her in the store but it wasn't until we were near one another in the parking lot, loading groceries into our cars, that we talked for about 5 minutes. I hadn't yet removed my mask as I wait until I've sanitized my hands after I've loaded my car. She had removed her mask. BUT, she proceeded to complain about how many people aren't wearing masks these days (while she was close enough to comfortably talk to me - and she was without a mask - lol). Granted, I still had my mask on and we were outside (so I felt no concern at all) but oh the hypocrisy in her actions and words. And, I don't think she had a single clue because she just kept on complaining about those terrible non mask wearing people:))))) I just couldn't wait to get home and tell my husband of my shopping trip. It was so funny that it didn't even seem to occur to her that what she was doing was exactly what she was complaining about. OMG!

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patriciae_gw(07)

this is one place you can get yardage of this stuff

Melt Blown Face Mask Filter Material (BFE 95% ... - Sailrite

we have bought it elsewhere as well. You cut the shape you need for your mask if you have bought masks that take a filter. I make my own masks but the principal is the same. Buy a cloth mask with a pocket and cut your filter to fit. No sewing. Very breathable. You cant wash it though. It looks similar to interface only thicker. the stuff they carry here is charged to be more effective. They have tons of explanations and videos and even patterns and all the bits and pieces. Other places carry it as well. DH found it for us.

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jmm1837

For proponents of the Swedish model, this article, the viewpoint of an Australian living in Sweden, should be food for thought. It paints an less than bright picture of what has happened there, and what experts think is going to happen as the second wave comes into play.


https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/coronavirus-sweden-aussie-health-expert-in-sweden-reveals-truth-about-socalled-success-story/news-story/4c7e3fc961fb3207f1c94541930c0525

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elvis

I thought masks seemed sensible when Fauci was saying they were not needed or helpful. Fauci's words seemed illogical to me as did the narrative that a mask did not protect the person wearing it but only the other person (I thought that sounded absurd).

Same here, Ann. Sometimes these "experts" are very patronizing. Obviously, they didn't want us to use supplies which were needed by essential personnel. I get that.

I also get why the president didn't want to panic the people. Cue the scene in Armageddon where the pres says "God help us all" as the asteroid barrels down at Planet Earth.

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cattyles

Get outta here with that malarkey. Trump is all about panic and chaos.

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roxsol

I am amazed that a USA President would be concerned about causing panic among American citizens. Surely, Americans are stronger than that!

The threat was real and urgent. A good leader should have known it was imperative to gather his citizens, unite them and work together as Americans for America.

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ubro(2a)

I thought the reason they protect others and not the wearer very well is because the virus is in the larger droplets that the wearer expels and keeps them contained.

So the mask protects others from my cough but does not protect me from viruses not in droplets anymore and already circulating in the air.


I also get why the president didn't want to panic the people.

The rest of the world did not panic. Are you saying that the POTUS thinks the US people are not as smart as the rest of the world so they are unable to react in a reasonable manner? It sounds like an insult to me. IMO the US people can handle adversity just fine, they handled 911 with incredible resiliency.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

I also get why the president didn't want to panic the people.

Are you saying that with a straight face, elvis? About the president who has done nothing but deliberately try to scare and panic people for more than a month straight (since the economy schtick was looking to not work out) with made-up threats???? Two hundred thousand deaths (so far) sounds like a real threat that he should have coordinated, motivated, and mobilized action against, instead of playing it "cool" and doing nothing much.

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Iris GW

Oh, I don't think I meant that photo for this thread; sorry about that.

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youngquinn_gw

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/08/very-dead-army-and-police-patrol-the-deserted-streets-of-coronavirus-stricken-melbourne

"mask wearing is now compulsory in Victoria. with police and army enforcing."

Really? Is the army enforcing "mask wearing" in Victoria? That's certainly interesting (and a bit surprising) to me."

Why is it surprising to you ? The Government has a responsibility to protect those citizens who are doing the right thing to prevent the virus spreading from those who refuse to. they are also enforcing the curfew.....the logic being that less time out and less interactions limits the opportunities for the virus to spread. and it is working. we are down from 725 daily cases 5 weeks ago to 40 cases today


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elvis

catspa_zone9sunset14

I also get why the president didn't want to panic the people.

Are you saying that with a straight face, elvis

Yes, of course.

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maifleur03

Iris at 196,000 dead with 1,000 now on most days that 200,000 deaths in the US should happen within less than a week.

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heri_cles

I also get why the president didn't want to panic the people.
Is that why he said foolish things like Covid would go away by itself ? Only fools would be comforted with that nonsense or his snake oil salesman pitch for hydroxychloroquine as a cure. Is that why he eschewed mask wearing...so that people would feel comfortable not wearing a mask instead of panicking?

Trump' is now planning the October surprise we discussed a while back - approve a vaccine before November 3rd. Actually now, that won't be a surprise. Putin already did it so what does Trump have to lose by doing the same thing ?

Trump will do everything he can to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. He will lie and cheat and risk the lives of others to get what he wants. This is a guy who admitted that he grabs and grabs and grabs for everything he can.....fame, fortune,, sex and power. Democratic voters have to stop this guy. It is on us.

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HamiltonGardener

Hey Ann,

I seem to remember promising an eyewitness rundown in this area of the European picture.

So, the flight from Toronto to Amsterdam. Nearly empty, as Canada has a mandatory quarantine, not many people are leaving the country for vacation. Masks on everyone. Strictly enforced, even on an elderly man in a wheelchair with a face shield, he was told it was not enough and he could not board without a mask.

Amsterdam airport, less than half wearing a mask. Most were carrying a bottle of water and drinking so the rule that you do not have to wear a mask when eating or drinking applies.

Flight from Amsterdam to Lisbon. Completely full. Three seats abreast, I had the window, hubby had middle, stranger next to him in the aisle seat. Masks were again mandatory but many had masks under the nose or off while they drank water.

Here in Lisbon, masks indoors are mandatory unless eating. Tables in restaurants are distanced. They are following the rules quite well, but their rules are quite relaxed. No spacing on the metro, sidewalks are crowded.

We took a side trip today outside of Lisbon, went out to Evora for the day. Very, very few people wearing masks. They have them on their forearms, ready to put on if asked, but they are going into stores and restaurants without bothering to put them on. Some places are enforcing the rules, such as museums and churches. But for the most part, not many others. However, outside of Lisbon and Porto, the numbers are low. Plus, many bars and restaurants are primarily outdoor. Indoor space is limited and seating is all outside in the praça.

That being said, I see no fear of the virus within the people or the media here. There are reminders of social distancing and hand washing everywhere, but people are out and about, socializing, living life. They are just doing it while following masks and hand washing.


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Ann

Very interesting HG. Thank you for the info and have a great trip!

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Bookwoman(7a PA)

Not Europe, but due to its rising number of cases, Israel is instituting a 3 week lockdown beginning on Friday: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54134869

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batyabeth

yup. And the political shenanigans are nearly Trumpian. You would not believe the pretzel logic every night on the news. But lockdown starts Friday at 2pm for three weeks. I am delighted. As I've mentioned before, we could FINISH this thing in a month if folks would always wear masks, stay out of bars, beaches, weddings, houses of worship, ALL of it, for one month. Just get the job done, for goodness' sake. Bite the bullet and do it right, and let me get on a damn plane to see my peeps. But, no, special interests want to say it's not fair and why should they and but the other guy............. We are having over 4000 new cases a day, for over two weeks. Overwhelmed hospitals are closing their doors and crashing.

Our special ed school is in an adolescent psych ward, the day program will be closed (I'll be teaching a very few students virtually, but mostly not) but the locked ward will be open and we'll share shifts. Hey, as long as I have enough yarn, all will be well - and yes, I do have enough yarn!

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elvis

HG, if you get to this place, please tell me it was wonderful. I guess I'm interested in those gardens...Castelo de Marvão.


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HamiltonGardener

Sorry Elvis,

We only got as far as Evora. But we did get a picture of this when we were there...



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elvis

The Diana Temple! Beautiful.

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elvis

How does your Swedish friend feel about the requirement in Norway?

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maifleur03

She thinks it is wise but probably too late for a lot of the people. In her area of Sweden the authorities mandated masks early. There have been fewer cases than in the surrounding areas.

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elvis

Surprising. Every article I've seen about mask-wearing indicates that nowhere in Sweden has it been required, and in fact, is not the norm. Where is this area in Sweden, Mai?

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maifleur03

She lives in Mariestad.

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elvis

Thanks, I can't find anything about masks being required anywhere in Sweden, must be a very local thing. Anyway, I'm glad it's working out for your friend.

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HamiltonGardener

One thing I have noticed here is the lack of masks, social distancing, and respect for space amongst the African migrants here. There are large populations and they have certain areas they congregate in large numbers. No masks and standing close, but it is outdoors, and clasping hands, sharing cigarettes a lot as well. I figure sharing cigarettes would probably be the best way to spread Covid.

That said, they are also a very young population so if Covid is circulating, most of them likely don’t feel the effects of it beyond some mild symptoms. They probably wouldn’t even know they have it.

I shrug it off, but at restaurants they also go from table to table (a lot of outdoor dining) to hawk their wares. No masks and they lean in close, persistent, trying to convince you to buy.

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Ann

"Thanks, I can't find anything about masks being required anywhere in Sweden, must be a very local thing. Anyway, I'm glad it's working out for your friend."

I just looked at Mariestad specifically and can't either. The very closest I could find is a possible requirement when using public transport in Mariestad.

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elvis

I shrug it off, but at restaurants they also go from table to table (a lot of outdoor dining) to hawk their wares. No masks and they lean in close, persistent, trying to convince you to buy.

So how do you deal with that, HG?


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HamiltonGardener

Same as I would any other time.

”No. No. No.”

Then you go back to ignoring them until they walk away to the next table.

Honestly, the hawkers and beggars are irritating, but if you get off the beaten path, away from the really touristy areas, things are definitely better.

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