Well well, mail in voting

HU-274840647

Is good thing after all, what, or who changed his mind?

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Nana H

Changed it for Florida only......I would not trust him further than I could throw him on this one. He and DeSantis and the USPS up to something?

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Fla has plenty of swampland for all of this administration to inhabit.

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dandyfopp

He is afraid of losing Florida.

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Kathy

What a turn around. Who can believe anything he says. He changes his mind depending on if he thinks it will help him or not, not based on what’s good for America.

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AnnKH

Or based on whoever he talked to last, since he can't seem to remember what he said yesterday (to say nothing of last week, or during a campaign promise).

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Lars(Z11a (coastal L.A.) and Z9a (desert))

Someone told him that more mail-in votes would go to him than to Biden.

Here's a grim view of what might happen in the election.

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Iris GW

All his supporters on FB are still repeating the earlier line ....

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mudhouse


Trump didn't change his mind. He's endorsing Florida's Absentee Voting, which in Florida is called "Vote by Mail."

He's not objecting to absentee voting, where the voter has to request a ballot, as they do in Florida. See? He says above, "request a Ballot & Vote by Mail!"

https://www.myfloridaelections.com/Voting-Elections/Ways-to-Vote/Vote-by-Mail-Absentee-Ballots

He objects to "universal mail in voting", or "mass mail in voting", in states where an actual ballot is mailed to every registered or active voter without being requested.

The media is using the phrase "mail in voting" without being clear about which of the two methods they mean (on purpose) and they're two different things.

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mudhouse



Trump is objecting to the recent legislation passed in Nevada that changes their voting method to universal vote by mail, where every registered active voter in the state will be sent a ballot, without voters going through the process of requesting it.

Universal or mass vote by mail is different from absentee voting. It's confusing because the name of the absentee voting program in Florida is simply called "Vote By Mail." But if you read the above link, you'll see that Florida voters have to request their ballot before it's mailed to them.

We have absentee voting here in NM too. You can request it online, or by mailing in a form, or by going in person to the courthouse (I think the latter is true.) But you have to request it; it's not automatically mailed out to every active registered voter.

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mudhouse

See? Universal Mail In Voting bad.

Absentee Voting good.

He's being consistent, but the media is working hard to conflate the two different ways that states allow people to vote by mail.

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Joaniepoanie

His state residency is Florida——wonder how many absentee ballots he’ll be requesting.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Trump is objecting to the recent legislation passed in Nevada that changes their voting method to universal vote by mail, where every registered active voter in the state will be sent a ballot, without voters going through the process of requesting it.

Well, is Trump going to object to Colorado, Washington, Hawaii, Utah, and Oregon doing that, too, where the same thing as Nevada intends to do already has been happening? In Oregon they have been doing it without problems since 1998 -- that's 22 years.

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Iris GW

I like it, I think it's convenient. Hope people receiving their ballots will actually recognize them for what they are.

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Toby

DH said today he's just doing this so that he doesn't have to attend Biden's inauguration. He'll call it a fraud as an excuse not to attend.

Oregon is a little different--it only has vote by mail so a ballot has to be mailed to every registered voter.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Mudhouse, would you please explain what is wrong with universal vote by mail? It is what we do and there have been no issues or problems. When I sign that envelope I swear I am who I say I am and am obeying the law. If I am lying I will face the full impact of the law. Apparently that is working for us. Our ballots are easily identifiable.

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Kathy

Trump is the one who has been confusing the issue. Here is one of his earlier statements.



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mudhouse

Patriciae, there's evidence that universal voting by mail has a high level of lost ballots.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/04/24/28_million_mail-in_ballots_went_missing_in_last_four_elections_143033.html#!

Between 2012 and 2018, 28.3 million mail-in ballots remain unaccounted for, according to data from the federal Election Assistance Commission. The missing ballots amount to nearly one in five of all absentee ballots and ballots mailed to voters residing in states that do elections exclusively by mail.

States and local authorities simply have no idea what happened to these ballots since they were mailed – and the figure of 28 million missing ballots is likely even higher because some areas in the country, notably Chicago, did not respond to the federal agency’s survey questions. This figure does not include ballots that were spoiled, undeliverable, or came back for any reason.

Although there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently, the Public Interest Legal Foundation, which compiled the public data provided from the Election Assistance Commission, says that the sheer volume of them raises serious doubts about election security.

In addition, mail in ballots are easier to use in the practice of ballot harvesting.

To increase voter participation, various organizations in multiple states have made active and coordinated efforts to collect absentee voters' ballots during elections. Then they drop them off at polling places or election offices.

This practice, known as ballot harvesting, has been effective and, unsurprisingly, has generated controversy.

Some see the practice of ballot harvesting as a voter service that has long-assisted elderly voters and Native American voters living on remote reservations. Others see it is a political tool that can easily lend itself to fraud.

https://www.findlaw.com/voting/how-u-s--elections-work/ballot-harvesting--what-is-it--how-does-it-work-.html

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

....there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently,

It isn't against the law in the United States to chose not to vote. How the heck does too few returned (in the opinion of the complainers), equal voter fraud? Is it fraudulent for people to choose to put the ballot into their recycling bin if they received it by mistake, or they simply choose not to vote? If they were being fraudulently cast, then there would be fewer "missing" ballots, not more.

Ballot harvesting is a different issue. And it would increase returns, not decrease them.

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koyse

^^^That “evidence” is extremely suspect.

The RealClearPolitics article you rely on states that “there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently[.]”

The EAC has become highly politicized and right-leaning since the hiring of its current executive director in 2015.

“The problems started almost immediately. In February 2016, [EAC Executive Director] Newby took the action for which he is best known: He approved requests from Georgia, Alabama and his home state of Kansas to require residents filling out the federal voter registration form to prove they were citizens. [EAC Commissioner] Hicks blasted the move, saying it “contradict[ed] policy and precedent.”

An appeals court later froze Newby’s action, but the move forever poisoned his reputation among people dealing with theEAC, four sources said.

“That really just killed his credibility with a good number of election officials,” said one former election official.

Many lawmakers and EAC staffers thought Newby “overly politicized his role,” said the election integrity expert.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/15/federal-election-brian-newby-2020-1365841

The Public Interest Law Foundation [PILF] is also a right-leaning organization whose past actions have shown an overeagerness to elevate voter fraud to a bigger problem than it actually is.

“PILF, alongside Judicial Watch, the American Civil Rights Union (ACRU), and True the Vote sent "menacing" letters to 248 local election officials across the United States. The letter, using the PILF letterhead and its "nonpartisan, nonprofit, public-interest" label, "notify" recipients that based on PILF research their "jurisdiction is in apparent violation of Section 8 of the National Voter Registration Act."

According to The Brennan Center, "PILF uses an unreliable and inaccurate assessment of voter registration rates" to claim that the recipients of the letters have a higher number of voters than it does members of the voting eligible population. The Brennan Center continues to assert that it "falsely claims these high registration rates alone provide strong evidence that a jurisdiction is not fulfilling its obligation to maintain accurate voter registration databases." After laying out a proposal to address their concerns, PILF has threatened litigation if they suggestions are not followed. "PILF’S letter is part of a larger concerted effort to remove voters from registration lists and further its false and baseless claim that there is widespread voter fraud across the country" according to the Brennan Center.

PILF was criticized as encouraging these purges for partisan Republican gains.“

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Public_Interest_Legal_Foundation

There are ways to artificially skew vote results. I consider wholesale voter list purges that disproportionately affect minorities, closure of polling places in largely minority districts, onerous voter ID requirements, and extreme gerrymandering, to name a few, to be a bigger threat to the accuracy of voting results than ballot harvesting.

ETA: Responding to the recent post by mudhouse.

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Kathy

I wonder if Trump isn’t just detracting from the foreign influence in our elections.


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Mr. Trump votes absentee/by mail - which of course are the same thing.

And I understand recent surveys have shown that more FL Democrats favor and trust absentee voting, compared to GOP voters - uh-oh!

Since our current president has destabilized our country, and Russia wants us destabilized - it's a cinch they want to help him retain office.

And Russia isn't the only foreign country interfering.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I have received and not sent in a ballot myself. When we have been distracted by other things and didnt keep up with the date we have missed voting. Our local school district has the habit of having us vote just for that and since it isnt part of the normal vote we can forget. I feel bad since I always vote for school bonds when I remember but there it is. Lost ballots? No. If people dont want to vote they dont.

Prove any of those ballots are being used fraudulently. You cant. they would show up in the system and they dont. Each ballot has a number. It can be traced. It would not be signed by me for instance. How would someone have my signature. This is all BS from people who think this sort of voting advantages poor people and people of color.

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mudhouse

How the heck does too few returned (in the opinion of the complainers), equal voter fraud? Is it fraudulent for people to choose to put the ballot into their recycling bin if they received it by mistake, or they simply choose not to vote? If they were being fraudulently cast, then there would be fewer "missing" ballots, not more.

Gyr, I think the problem is, there's no way to know if people threw away their ballots (by mistake or on purpose) or if they mailed them and they were lost, or if they mailed them and they were somehow fraudulently kept out of the tally, at some point along the way.

Races can be altered by "losing" ballots just as they can be altered by fraudulently casting ballots.

*******************************************

In the recent mail ballot test that CBS did, a week after the mock ballets were mailed, almost none showed up at the PO Box they set up as the destination for the test. They finally had to speak to a post office manager.

"They had them somewhere else," the postal worker said.

After that snafu was corrected, they were still missing 3% of the mock ballets in the test that were mailed.

"Out of the initial batch mailed a week earlier, 97 out of 100 votes had arrived. Three simulated persons, or 3% of voters, were effectively disenfranchised by mail by giving their ballots a week to arrive. In a close election, 3% could be pivotal."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vote-by-mail-ballot-counted-election/

*******************************************

Ballots that are not able to be accounted for are problematic because there'd be no way to know WHY the ballots weren't returned. You could guess people threw them away, as you said, or that they changed their minds, but you'd only be guessing. In the CBS test above, they knew for a fact they'd mailed the test ballots, but still lost 3% inexplicably.

It's not about proof of fraud, it's about the impossibility of knowing whether or not fraud occurred. It's simply a higher risk of fraud.

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mudhouse

Koyse, I really kind of disliked answering Patriciae's question with that link to the article in Real Clear Politics, not because I know it to be suspect, but because I know almost any source (or survey, or study, or poll) can be disqualified by either side based on claims of bias.

For example, True the Vote just assisted the Republicans in my own state to defeat an effort by my governor to have the state legislature change our absentee voting system to a universal mail voting system in time for the 2020 election. I'm against universal vote by mail in my own state, especially with only a few months to go, because I sincerely doubt my state would handle it efficiently and accurately on such short notice. I think it would be a train wreck. (I know my state.)

I'm a registered Republican. I was glad to see True the Vote assist my state's Republicans in the legal argument against the idea, and they prevailed, because it would have required a change in my state's laws. So your comment listing True the Vote along with PILF and the EAC as being suspect isn't convincing to me, although I understand it is to you. On we go.

But it is evidence that some people do believe voting by mail increases the risk of fraud, and I was trying to answer Patriciae's question about why anyone would object to it.

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Ziemia(6a)

About those 28M missing mail-in ballots:

But as the EAC observed in response, those 28 million “missing” ballots were ones that were “neither returned undeliverable nor returned from voter” — in other words, ballots mailed out in multiple states over the course of four elections that were not marked and sent back. Declaring such ballots “missing” is, as many others noted, akin to declaring all the millions of Americans who don’t bother showing up at polling places each election (some 40 to 60% of the eligible voting population) as “missing”:


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mail-in-ballots-missing/

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mudhouse

Thanks, Ziemia, I haven't had time yet to do much research on that article, and I appreciate the info. That lines up with what I was guessing, as I said to Gyr. It's not about proof of fraud, as much as it is not being able to determine whether or not fraud was committed. An unanswered question of that importance is still a problem (to me) even if widespread voter fraud cannot be proven by that data.

Declaring such ballots “missing” is, as many others noted, akin to declaring all the millions of Americans who don’t bother showing up at polling places each election (some 40 to 60% of the eligible voting population) as “missing”:

Hmm, I'll have to think about this; it sounds to me like Snopes is editorializing this part, and I'll take it with a grain of salt.

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Ziemia(6a)

And this (same link) (the 2nd objection in the article used by MH to support her argument is based on old practices, which are reported to have been modernized)

What the article does not cover is that since voting by mailed-out ballot has become more prevalent, there are many best practices in use that prevent the sort of wide-scale ballot mishandling that Hemingway suggests.


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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

mudhouse, you think it is acceptable for republicans to close so many polling places that lines require 6-8 hours to get through, and that everyone should have to stand in them even during a pandemic? Is it ok to force voters to travel many miles to vote? What are they supposed to do when the power goes out? When there is only one voting location and tens of thousands of voters must use just that one? You are furious also about polling places that don't have paper backup, because there is fraud just begging to be hidden? How about an accurate way to recount on all machines? What do you think about the problems with faulty machines, where pushing one name causes the vote to mysteriously jump to another? etc. All I see are complaints about mail in voting, but these other problems don't even get a mention---because they are republican supported fraud.

Frankly, I found out belatedly that sometimes when we went to polling places, our entire family was later recorded as having not voted at all in that election! Some elections it was just me, even though we all went together. I've never had my mailed in ballot not be recorded. So, in my experience, voting by mail is safer and lessprone to fraud than going to the polling place.

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Lars(Z11a (coastal L.A.) and Z9a (desert))

As a hypothetical question, suppose that USPS would lose 1% of mail-in ballots. Also suppose that during a pandemic and without the option to mail in ballots, 10% of people do not vote, for fear of being exposed to a deadly disease.

I made these numbers up, but I do believe that the percentage of people who will be disenfranchised by not having the ability to vote by mail is far greater than the percentage of votes that would be lost in the mail. Of course, the postal service could be improved, if one felt that it is not doing an adequate job.

I will be receiving a ballot via mail (like all registered voters in California), and I might decide to take it to a secure drop-off box.

I do think that there is a possibility, in the case of this election, of an attempted sabotage of the mail system, either by burning mailboxes or post offices or by attempting to steal mail, but then not everyone will mail their ballot on the same day, and so this would be difficult to pull off.

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mudhouse

Gyr, my own objections are not to voting by mail. We've used the absentee voting method here in my state for the last three elections, due to health issues. I'd MUCH rather see my own hand feed the paper ballot into the machine, but that's not always easy to do based on personal circumstances, and I'm glad my state allows an absentee voting option.

We request a ballot online. We get our ballot in the mail. We drop it off at a secure post office mail box. Unfortunately, even though NM has done this for years, we had a problem this year with the state being very slow to mail out requested absentee ballots. We requested ours early, and it didn't come. I verified online they had my request. When they came, we only had about a two day window to get them back in order to make sure they arrived in time. To be honest, I don't know if they did. The governor of our state confirmed in a presser that some NM voters were disenfranchised because of the delays in delivering the ballots. And that's in a state that has done absentee voting for years! That's not conjecture, that's a very real concern as a result of real problems in our last election!
https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/unprecedented-primary-challenges-new-mexico-elections-officials/article_3ef1f772-8968-11ea-bace-2b2a0e66bf2f.html

My objection is to universal or mass mailings of ballots to everybody on the voter registration list, because that's likely to be even more poorly managed than our current system. My state doesn't have enough time to learn how to do it competently in a few months, and that only increases the opportunities for fraud, when you pump ballots into the mail without going through a controlled process of people requesting them.

I read this morning that the recent legislature passed in Nevada enabling mass voting by mail will send ballots to everybody on the voter registration list, active or inactive. If this is correct (still trying to find the actual legislation to verify it) that means the state will mail ballots to people who have previously been shown to no longer live at that address - that's one of the criteria for being an "inactive" registered voter in Nevada.

If that's true, that's completely insane, and a wide open invitation to misuse of ballots. Why would Nevada want to do this, if they care about the accuracy of the vote? Why would you want it? I don't understand why any American wouldn't be concerned about an increased risk of voter fraud, on either side of the political fence.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Nevada is only sending ballots to "active registered voters" (~ 1.6 million), not to the quarter million or so on the "inactive registered voters" list. See text of law here. As there will still be in-person voting options, it will run more-or-less like other states that are doing it this way (also including California, Vermont, and Washington, DC, along with Colorado, Hawaii, Washington, and Utah that I mentioned earlier -- Oregon is strictly mail-in). i think you are raising a lot of phony issues, mudhouse. Why are you and Trump only picking on Nevada, in any case?

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

I still think it is suspect that only the current republican talking point problems get the focus, and all of the other issues get the silent treatment all the way up to hearty support. Even illegal support, by soliciting election influence by foreign countries. The republican party has openly stated that they support manufacturing certain issues because they think it will favor their party. Selective outrage does not impress me. Voting should be safe, quick and easy for everyone that is legally able to vote, that wants to vote. Period.

I have issues with certain aspects of voting, too. The difference is, I don't cherry pick only those that affect my chosen political party in a perceived negative way for the needs-adjustment list. And I certainly don't lie that there is fraud where investigations have found none of significance has been shown to exist, during a pandemic, when the alternatives will kill people for wanting to exercise their right to vote.

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mudhouse

Thank you for the link, catspa. I'm still trying to run down the inconsistent comments I've seen. I did find this WaPo article, and it clearly outlines that in the Nevada primaries, ballots were mailed to 1.1 million Clark County Nevada voters. However, ballots were also mailed in to 200,000 additional inactive voters. These were voters who had not replied to a postcard sent to verify their address.

Officials in Clark County, which includes Las Vegas, began sending ballots to 1.1 million active voters this month as part of Nevada’s first all-mail election, prompted by the coronavirus epidemic. Roughly 200,000 more inactive voters — those who did not reply to a postcard sent to verify their address within 30 days, after it was determined they moved — also received ballots in the mail after Democrats sued to make voting in the primary more accessible.

https://archive.is/RpHNv#selection-1573.0-1577.271

I think this fact that Clark County Nevada DID mail ballots to inactive voters, earlier this year, is the source of the conflicting comments about how Nevada would also conduct the election in November. I'll do more reading at your link.

As I stated above, I'm against my state implementing a system of universal mailing in general, because of increased fraud risk. It seems obvious to me.

But I'm also against it because of the short time frame, and that's a completely legitimate objection for Nevada as well. My state has already demonstrated they can't even conduct their normal absentee voting this year competently, because of the increased requests for mail voting due to Covid19.

Why should I believe that Nevada will be able to handle the responsibility of switching to a universal vote by mail system in only a few months, when my state's clearly having problems just maintaining the absentee mail vote system they've had in place for years? I think a train wreck is a lot more likely. I'm completely convinced that's what would happen in my state, with the end result being the complete erosion of any remaining trust that state residents have in the security of their voting process.

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mudhouse

Gyr, I'm not furious or outraged. I'm just posting what I think, and why, and at the same time, doing my best to give people the right to hold opposing views.

And I certainly don't lie that there is fraud where investigations have found none of significance has been shown to exist, during a pandemic, when the alternatives will kill people for wanting to exercise their right to vote.

Both sides can throw up articles and studies to argue over whether or not "significant" fraud has been shown to exist. We've had lots of those threads.

People won't die in my state from exposure to Covid at the polls because they can vote absentee by mail. I support absentee voting by mail. It's a reasonable compromise, and a sensible solution. You're skipping right over that option, if you're trying to make the point that objecting to universal or mass voting by mail is the same thing as agreeing to kill people who want to vote. Trump is not against absentee voting by mail.

But I know it's very dramatic to imply he's against all voting by mail, and that will kill people, and it's hard to pass up dramatic persuasion in this political climate.

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Kathy

I am increasingly more suspect of voting in person being the way to suppress the vote in majority Democratic and black areas and actually more worried about foreign interference in our elections going on as we speak.

Here is what Mi is doing to counter the fears of mail-in voting.



I’m sure the same efforts will be made for November.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

We requested ours early, and it didn't come. I verified online they had my request. When they came, we only had about a two day window to get them back in order to make sure they arrived in time.

mudhouse, You already admitted that your way, by sending ballots only to those that request, is a problem! Since there is a serious problem with the fulfillment of the requests using your method, sending them to active voters makes sense. There isn't sufficient time to fix the problems with the request system, especially in states that do not have that volume of mail-in voting already set up. Many states are already scrambling just to be able to mail out the ballots. Adding the extra request, verification, and sending, to the already overburdened states is ridiculous under these circumstances. You know it is not doable. That is the whole point of the republicans' screaming--to make it impossible for the states to do, so they have to go with the COVID-19 dangerous voting methods.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Basically you are repeating what Trump has been tweeting, mudhouse, which is starting to worry some Republican senators (see John Thune here) and others who believe that it will actually depress Republican votes. So, carry on, by all means :-).

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Kathy

That’s why Trump says it’s okay in Florida. He thinks it might hurt Republican voters.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Where I live, you can drop off your signed & sealed ballot up to the day of the election either at election offices or polling places. The ballots have pre-paid postage and a box to check if you want to continue to receive a mail-in ballot.

And really that argument about mailed ballots going missing is sort of ridiculous in light of the fact that in past elections, so many paper ballots from in-person voting have also 'gone missing' - or been invalidated.

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sheesh(5b)

Thats right, carolb. Sacks and sacks of ballots found in Republican closets in wisconsin in a recent election. They were not mailed ballots, they were cast at polling places.

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bfox254

Too funny that Trump supporters interpret Trump speak for us as if they're aware of the secret code. He changed his tune on Florida because of the huge numbers of Trump supporting senior citizens in Florida who might not vote at all if he tells them that voting by mail isn't safe.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Mudhouse, I appreciate your taking the time to answer me but I do not see your arguments as being valid to the case. States have put plenty of effort into making sure people dont get to vote. Stay up late and fix it when you have a problem. My ballot is not legal without my signature. All ballots that are sent in are checked against the appropriate county registry. This is not String Theory.

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Ziemia(6a)

Requesting an absentee ballot is more effort. Small, but it is there.

If I am ill, I might not think of asking. If I am ill, I may want to skip in person voting. The mail-in ballots often start with receiving an invite for one in mail. So, I just have to check my mail.

More people vote with the mail-in ballots. That is a good thing in my opinion.

PS: - sarcasm? Can't tell. So no, you don't give me the right.....

MH: "... doing my best to give people the right to hold opposing views."

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mudhouse

Basically you are repeating what Trump has been tweeting, mudhouse, which is starting to worry some Republican senators (see John Thune here) and others who believe that it will actually depress Republican votes. So, carry on, by all means :-).

Okay catspa. I think it's all still debatable, because here's a Washington Post article that says voting by mail increases the number of ballots rejected (not counted in the final tally.) Mail ballots are rejected at a much higher rate than in-person ballots.

https://archive.is/oHXUt

The catch is, the authors' research goes on to show that ballots that are rejected are much more likely to come from younger voters, people of color, and first time voters. If they're correct, it seems possible that encouraging mail-in voting might depress Democrat votes, at least in some areas.

So, carry on, by all means. :-)

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mudhouse

Mudhouse, I appreciate your taking the time to answer me but I do not see your arguments as being valid to the case.

You're welcome Patriciae. I think it's a complicated topic, and I'm still trying to learn. I have no problem with people expressing different opinions. All I can do is try to be honest about how things seem to me, based on my experiences, and I think that's true for most of us.

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chisue

I was appalled to see that in some states a voter has to state a *witnessed reason* he cannot vote in person. Worse, in some states, the reason can be *rejected*. These appear to me to be primarily longtime Red States.

DH and I received ballot request forms in the mail Tuesday and mailed them in to the county clerk today. Forms required a signature verifying that the pre-printed registration information was correct. Telephone number and email address were requested. These requests went out automatically to registered voters who participated in various recent elections, including Nov. 2018.

The county encourages voters to cast a ballot via Early Voting. The application could be mailed, hand delivered, or a form emailed. Requests must be received by the clerk by Oct. 29.

Voting by mail begins Sept. 24. Ballots are to be mailed out within two business days of that date. Ballots must be hand delivered or postmarked by Nov. 3.


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Joaniepoanie

We received ballot request forms in the mail today. Coincidentally I emailed my request yesterday—-printed out the form, filled it out, scanned it and emailed. You had to provide your DL number or the last four digits of SS number.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Mail ballots are rejected at a much higher rate than in-person ballots

------

But is that voter fraud? Why not implement better instructions on how to vote by mail, and to have more accurate signature check/updating? Oh, there it is: the decisions and objections done by partisan choices only part:

----------------------------

If they're correct, it seems possible that encouraging mail-in voting might depress Democrat votes, at least in some areas. So, carry on, by all means.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

I'm sooo stressed out! I just discovered my father and mother, both lifelong republicans, both voted democrat in the 2016 election! The only thing that salves my broken heart is holding to the belief believe they never would have done that had they been alive.


Al

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soupgirl53

Here in Nebraska as a registered voter, I received an application for a ballot to vote by mail today. I completed the application and returned it via s secure drop box. Ballots will be mailed starting on Monday, September 28th. I will vote my ballot upon receipt and drop it off at a secure drop box thereafter. Very neat, very easy and no dealing with the post office!

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koyse

“But it is evidence that some people do believe voting by mail increases the risk of fraud, and I was trying to answer Patriciae's question about why anyone would object to it.”

And there is the crux of the matter - whether or not “some people do believe” should not be the basis for objecting to voting by mail. There is no evidence that voter fraud exists in sufficiently high numbers to affect the outcome of elections. Even the article you rely on concedes “there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently[.]”

I would rather our government address and try to solve actual problems, such as voter suppression, than waste time and money trying to find a solution to a problem we know does not exist. But maybe that’s just me.

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Izzy Mn(4)

So does Trump believe in mail in voting or not. His campaign is encouraging his followers on FB ads to request absentee ballots.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/01/us/politics/trump-facebook-ads-absentee-ballots.html

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sheesh(5b)

I received that email, too, Izzymn, and I'm not even and have never been a republican.

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elvis

I've used absentee ballots on more than one occasion, and plan to do so again. It's not exactly the same as voting by mail.

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jmm1837

I've just received an email from our local council here in Aus advising that all voting for forthcoming local elections will be by mail, and to check my voter registration on line. Voting is of course compulsory , so guess the post office is going to be pretty busy.

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shead

This is why voting by mail (NOT absentee voting) is such a HORRIBLE idea. I've witnessed many a voter fraud in absentee ballots in my small town (local clerk leaks to the candidate of her choice whose absentee ballots were mailed and an operative for said candidate just happens to show up at the [usually elderly] recipient's house the next day right after the mail ran and "helps" them with their ballot). Both sides should be equally concerned with mail in balloting where everyone is mailed a ballot.


https://nypost.com/2020/08/29/political-insider-explains-voter-fraud-with-mail-in-ballots/?fbclid=IwAR2ODtloeXJoqxNmcgX9wJItCnrcKjVQLOwPL10O9A1LIbfHwZSvp7yuaf4

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sheesh(5b)

P.A.N.I.C!!! ☺

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sheesh(5b)

It may be easier for Dems to vote by mail ! Stop this nonsense!

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sheesh(5b)

Oh, mercy me. If I vote absentee, and mail in is bad, how do I return my ballot? Do I have to go to the polling place anyway to return it? oh, what to do, what to do.

Hey wait! If the mail is bad, how will they get my absentee ballot to me? Will someone drive it to my house?

They've got me so confused I'm not gonna vote at all! I'll show 'em! I was gonna vote for president Trump! He's such a good honest American. Don't vote! Teach 'em a lesson! They can't mess with me.

Don't catch the Covid.

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Kathy

Just because someone comes to your house with bad intentions doesn’t make mail-in voting bad. That’s crazy thinking.

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olliesmom

With the paid BLM, anarchists, looters and rioters, don't think for one second they would not go around stealing mail from people in the states that allow mass mail in voting. Do you really trust they wouldn't be unhinged and radical enough to defraud the mailing system? They burn down cities and businesses, even murder. Stealing mail would be a walk in the park for them. Antifa.com goes straight to donate for Biden.

I don't trust any Democrat run...anything. You know...crime of passion?? You know as well, they hate Trump so bad, they would do anything to stop him.

Not to mention, all the registered voters that aren't even around anymore. Dead, in prison since last election, moved, etc.

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Kathy

They could also intimidate people going to vote. We get our ballot in the mail and drop it off at a Local drop box. It’s better than standing in a cold rain For hours in Nov.

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sheesh(5b)

P.A.N.I.C.

F.E.A.R.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Don't catch the Covid.

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dandyfopp

It would probably be safest for Donnie fans to stay home and vote by text this year.

Don't catch the Covid.

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Kathy

It is wise to be aware. There is supposed to be a huge resurgence of a strain of covid this winter. Why subject everyone to it unnecessarily?

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Kathy

Dandy, that’s a great idea. They should use their text option. Hehe

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olliesmom

At least on absentee, you are expecting a ballot in the mail you requested. I would still hand deliver it somewhere safe. This year is not like most years as far as mail fraud goes. I would say it is most important in certain cites and states. Not all.

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Kathy

Most cities are safe and have local voting districts. ^^^ADDED—-They can have local drop boxes and ballots are checked routinely and safely. Even Portland is safe except for a couple blocks.

The weather is a big factor in northern states especially when the Republicans have taken away voting machines in Dem districts and people wait for hours in the rain. The Republicans cannot win if more people vote because they are in the minority.

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Toby

One by one we watch them fall into believing RW conspiracy theories. It's fascinating.

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sheesh(5b)

No, Toby. Its scary as helck!

Don't catch the Covid.

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Kathy

No Republicans will vote by mail. It’s not safe. They all will go to the polls and wait in line. That’s the American way. Who cares about Covid? They won’t catch it. They think positive ya know.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

If it can be exploited for political gain, the Marxist democrats have already figured out the best methods. That fact has been shown to be true over and over. Unfortunately, the left has a convenient strategy in place which allows them to be free of the inconvenience of facts and truth - might as well throw science and and the golden rule in free of charge.

Al

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sheesh(5b)

Uh oh. They have us figured out! Dang.

Don't catch the Covid.

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Kathy

The minority Republicans have to cheat to win. Pro-life has made the GOP wealthy beyond their imaginations.

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shead

@Kathy, going to vote in person with a mask on is no more dangerous than kids going back to school, grocery shopping, or protesting. If anyone is capable of those things in person, they are capable to go vote in person.

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shead

“Pro-life has made the GOP wealthy beyond their imaginations.“

Huh?


Notice it was the Democratic billionaires’ net worths that rose exponentially (by half a trillion) with the onset of Covid and everyone ordering from home and working from home.

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Kathy

That is true, unless you have to wait hours in the freezing rain in Michigan and other northern states. In Detroit they sent broken machines and polls were lined up for hours til people wen home. They couldn’t even be recounted because someone had tampered with the locks. And we wonder why Trump took Michigan.

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AnnKH

Here's the thing, shead - lots of people do NOT risk going back to school, grocery shopping, or protesting. Those who are not capable - or willing - to go to the polls must have an alternative.

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Kathy

I am referring to the millions of religious that vote for GOP pro-life and ignore their pilfering of America’s wealth.

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sheesh(5b)

Ahead wrote: Kathy, going to vote in person with a mask on is no more dangerous than kids going back to school, grocery shopping, or protesting. If anyone is capable of those things in person, they are capable to go vote in person.

Shead, you haven't been paying attention to reality. Do yourself a favor and tune in!

Don't catch the Covid.

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shead

“Those who are not capable - or willing - to go to the polls must have an alternative.“


I agree and it’s called Absentee Voting (by mail), not mass mail-in voting. Those tend to be far more secure with more safeguards in place than mass mail-our ballots that can be intercepted and fraudulently returned. Read the article I posted up thread with the tampering process described by one who was/is actually being paid to do the tampering.

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shead

“Shead, you haven't been paying attention to reality. Do yourself a favor and tune in!

Don't catch the Covid.“

Do yourself a favor and stop the condescension. It’s not a good look.

Furthermore, your reading comprehension skills must be faulty or you’d see I’m ALL for not catching “the Covid.” I’m just not for mass mail-in voting without any regulations on who gets mailed a ballot and no security measures to verify who returns the ballots. Absentee ballots should be more the exception than the rule because of the potential for fraud. Read the article I posted if you don’t believe me.

There’s no reason people should have to stand in lines in the freezing rain. Early voting by machine should be utilized like it is in many states like it is in Tennessee. There are ways to have secure voting that don’t require utilizing mass mail outs. Again, both sides should be concerned at the fraud potential.

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elvis

Kathy

No Republicans will vote by mail. It’s not safe. They all will go to the polls and wait in line.

No. What part of Absentee Voting do you need explained to you? I'll be happy to find you a website if you're unable.

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elvis

AnnKH

Here's the thing, shead - lots of people do NOT risk going back to school, grocery shopping, or protesting. Those who are not capable - or willing - to go to the polls must have an alternative.

And they have, for years. It's called Absentee Voting. Just do it.

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elvis

shead

“Shead, you haven't been paying attention to reality. Do yourself a favor and tune in! Don't catch the Covid.“

Do yourself a favor and stop the condescension. It’s not a good look.

Amen, sistah!

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Kathy

Elvis, you obviously missed the sarcasm. Must I explain the hypocrisy?

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sheesh(5b)

Condescending? I'll stop condescending when you stop pretending I and others are stupid.

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shead

“I'll stop condescending when you stop pretending I and others are stupid.“


What have I said on this thread that even remotely suggests anyone is stupid?!? You must be confused. I’ve made very logical and compelling arguments against mass mail in voting but support absentee voting. I’m certainly not pretending anything of the sorts....

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Kathy

There are some states that have had mail in voting for years with no problems.

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Ziemia(6a)

Hunh,

"I’ve made very logical and compelling arguments against mass mail in..."

You self-ascertained that your arguments are compelling?

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jmm1837

I actually haven't seen any compelling arguments. I saw what was essentially an opinion and that's about it.


I find it interesting that our forthcoming local elections will be entirely by mail here in Victoria. The state electoral commission (which is an apolitical body)simply made the decision, announced it without fanfare or any politicking, and will be sending out the voting packages later this month for return by late October. No one is concerned about voter fraud that I can see.


All the states use the national electoral roll for state and local elections - kind of a one stop shop, you might say. That roll is actually managed by the national Australian Electoral Commission, which has the details, including phone and email addresses, of everyone on the rolls. Details for address changes can be checked and corrected on line. I expect the actual ballots will require a signature and the inner envelope will be bar coded for identity, pretty much the way absentee ballots are done and no more unreliable than having someone front up in person to vote since there's no ID requirement anyway here.

I like the simplicity of the Aus system and the single electoral roll. You produce ID to enrol to vote for the very first time, and once you're on the rolls you're there for life, and just update your details when you move. Much more manageable than the patchwork of different rules and processes in the US. The only issue is getting fined if you don't vote. I suspect they'll have to give plenty of leeway on that for an all postal vote.

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shead

“You self-ascertained that your arguments are compelling?“

I’ll rephrase that, I’ve presented some compelling arguments in the form of the article I linked up thread from an actual mail in voting paid operative who has tampered with numerous ballots over the years. He/she outlined exactly how the fraud happens and it’s actually pretty simple. No one else has shown how it can be safeguarded.

But, by all means, keep shooting the messenger because you don’t like the message I’m relaying. It sure makes one wonder WHY the message is being ignored 🙄🤔


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jmm1837

The message is being ignored because it comes from a nameless source and because he describes fraud involving face to face as well as absentee and postal ballots. So, the entire system, not just mail in, that he describes is open to manipulation. Why focus on just one aspect if the system is so corrupt? But that begs the question, is it?

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shead

I’m going to assume you’re actually smarter than that and that you KNOW that mass mail in ballots without any security measures to ensure the identity of the person sending them in or receiving them is inherently subject to massive fraud. That means you just don’t care because you hope it benefits the side you support more than it hurts it.


Many states have absentee ballot procedures that are FAR more secure, albeit still imperfect. But with that, I’m bowing out of this discussion as I have a lot to accomplish today, including requesting my and DH’s absentee ballots.

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elvis

Kathy

There are some states that have had mail in voting for years with no problems.

How many states, and sources, please. Otherwise:

jmm1837

The message is being ignored because it comes from a nameless source

Again and again, kathy.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

* Leftists/Marxists/democrats already use numerous forms of voter fraud as an established/ essential tentacle of their many-armed syndicate.

* Mail in voting is ripe for exploitation by the unscrupulous, and the party of Mao and Marx is rife with the unscrupulous.

* Mixing democrats and mail-in-voting is akin to knowingly hiring a crackhead to keep inventory of your schedule I drugs.

Al


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Ziemia(6a)

Found a June article to avoid the most recent changes.

********

Five states - Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington and Utah - currently conduct elections almost entirely by mail.


Colorado: Colorado has been sending all registered voters mail-in ballots since 2013.

Hawaii: Hawaii will move to an all-mail election system this year for the first time, starting with its Aug. 8 primary, followed by the Nov. 3 general election.

Oregon: Oregon has been processing mail-in ballots longer than any other state, and in 2000 became the first state to conduct a presidential election completely by mail.

Utah: Of the states that primarily vote through the mail, Utah is the only one that leans Republican. Sen. Mitt Romney (R) has used his state as an example to push back on claims from the president that voting by mail disadvantages Republicans.

Utah typically allows people to vote in-person if they choose, but the June 30 primary will be counted entirely by mail-in and drop-off voting due to the coronavirus pandemic. Plans for the Nov. 3 general election have not yet been finalized.

Washington: Every registered voter in Washington receives a mail-in ballot prior to an election.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501577-heres-where-your-state-stands-on-mail-in-voting

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Ziemia(6a)

And, here's the section about absentee ballots (recent changes are noted, I think)

17 states (I think) require excuses.

*****No-excuse mail-in voting

These are states where you can apply for a mail-in ballot and do not need an excuse:

Alaska: Voters in Alaska do not need to cite a reason for why they choose to vote absentee. The Alaska state legislature in March passed a law that gives Lt. Gov. Kevin Meyer (R) the power to host all mail-in elections throughout 2020.

Arizona: Arizona voters do not need an excuse to vote through the mail, and according to the Arizona Secretary of State site, most residents already do.

California: California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) announced in May that the state would be sending mail-in ballots to every registered voter in the state, a decision that's been challenged by the state's Republican Party.

Florida: Voters who live in Florida can vote absentee without having to cite an excuse. Trump, who changed his residency from New York to Florida last year, has used Florida's mail-in voting system.

Priorities USA, a Democratic super PAC, filed a lawsuit against the state demanding it relax voting laws. The group is asking the state to accept ballots sent by election day, instead of the current policy requiring the ballots to be received by election day, and argues the postage required to send the ballot amounts to a poll tax.

Georgia: Georgia election officials sent absentee ballot request forms to the state's 6.9 million registered voters for the June 9 primary.

Voters in Georgia don't need to cite a reason for wanting to vote absentee. They can request their ballot up to 180 days before an election.

Idaho: Any registered voter in Idaho can apply for mail-in voting.

Illinois: Registered voters in Illinois do not need an excuse to vote absentee. Last month, the state legislature passed a bill that would expand mail-in voting by sending ballot applications to any voter who applied for an official ballot in the 2018 general election, the 2019 municipal elections or the March 2020 primary.

Iowa: Any registered voter in Iowa qualifies for mail-in voting.

Iowa Secretary of State Paul Pate (R) announced Wednesday that the state's June 2 primary saw record-breaking turnout after he decided to mail absentee ballot request forms to every registered voter and extend the early voting period for mailed ballots from 29 days to 40 days.

Kansas: Voters in Kansas do not need an excuse to request a mail-in ballot.

Local election officials can decide whether to send mail-in ballot applications to all voters or only those who request them.

Maine: All registered voters in Maine can request an absentee ballot.

Maryland: All registered voters in Maryland are able to request absentee ballots.

In an effort to curb the spread of the coronavirus, the state planned to send every registered voter a mail-in ballot for the June 2 primary election. According to The Washington Post, at least a million of those were delayed.

Michigan: All registered voters in Michigan are eligible for mail-in voting. Last month the state invested $4.5 million in sending 7.7 million registered voters mail-in ballot applications ahead of the August primary and November general election.

Minnesota: All registered voters in Minnesota are eligible to vote by mail.

Montana: All registered voters in Montana are able to vote by mail.

This year the Montana secretary of state decided the state's June 2 primary would be primarily by mail, and the state saw record-breaking turnout.

However, it's still unclear if the general election will be held the same way since the governor's state of emergency expires in July.

Nebraska: Any registered voter in Nebraska is eligible to vote by mail.

The state broke records for voter turnout in its May 12 primary.

Nevada: Nevada will have an all mail-in election for its June 9 primary as part of a temporary rule the state put in place to combat the spread of the coronavirus. A state court has decided that it will not rule on lawsuits challenging the temporary policy until July, so until then it is not clear to what extent Nevada voters will be able to vote through the mail or in-person in the November presidential

New Jersey: Any registered voter in New Jersey is eligible to vote by mail.

The state held its first completely mail-in election in May, which had greater turnout but saw delayed results. Election officials in the state are preparing for another primarily mail-in election for their July 7 primary.

New Mexico: All registered voters in New Mexico qualify to vote by mail. This year every eligible voter was sent an application without having to request one.

North Carolina: Any registered voter in North Carolina is eligible for mail-in voting.

The state legislature passed a bill last week that would divert funds to make it easier for people to vote by mail as the state anticipates higher turnout by mail in upcoming elections.

North Dakota: All registered voters in North Dakota are able to vote by mail in the state's June 9 election.

Ohio: Though every registered voter in Ohio is able to vote by mail, the Democrats in the state legislature and Republican Secretary of State Frank LaRose disagree on how to proceed with the general election.

Democrats introduced legislation that would increase voting by mail and LaRose has proposed extending early voting to avoid close contact at polls.

Oklahoma: The Oklahoma state legislature passed a bill that allows all voters in the 2020 elections that meet certain coronavirus-related criteria to cite "physically incapacitated" as a reason to vote by mail.

State and county election officials have seen an influx of people requesting absentee ballots this year for the state's June 30 primary, the Oklahoman reports.

Pennsylvania: Most Pennsylvania voters who participated in the June 2 primary did so by mail, which led to delayed results, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported.

South Dakota: This year South Dakota sent mail-in ballot applications to all registered voters in the state for the June 2 primary, which resulted in record-breaking numbers of mail-in ballots, the Argus Leader reported.

Vermont: All voters in Vermont can request a mail-in ballot.

The state legislature is poised to pass a bill that would give Vermont's Democratic Secretary of State Jim Condos unilateral authority to expand mail-in voting without approval from Republican Gov. Phil Scott.

Condos and Democrats in the state legislature are seeking to send every registered voter in the state a returnable ballot for the November presidential election, the VTDigger reports.

Virginia: Under current law, Virginians must list a state-authorized reason for why they cannot vote in person. But a law passed this year that will take effect in July allows voters to cast absentee ballots without any formal excuse.

Wisconsin: Voters in Wisconsin are eligible for mail-in voting without having to provide an excuse. In May, the Wisconsin Elections Commission approved a plan to send absentee ballot applications to more than 2.7 million registered voters, whether or not they requested one.

Wyoming: Voters in Wyoming don't need to cite a reason for wanting to vote absentee.

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deegw

All info easily found using your favorite search engine.

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elaineinnj

I don't trust voting by mail. I agree that people with disabilities and seniors should be able to vote with an absentee ballot, but I don't agree with being forced to vote by mail. It will be interesting to see if my husband gets a ballot, he is registered in Florida, I am in N.J. He hasn't voted in N.J. for several years. He did get a ballot in N.J. for the July primary. We will see. I do have a question, seeing that many ballots have been thrown out for whatever reason, how will we know if our vote is counted or if it has been thrown out? And if it is thrown out unjustly, will we be able to challenged their decision? I would rather go to the voting booth.

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sheesh(5b)

It's nothing but the realization and panic setting in because they fear losing the election. They are putting in place every roadblock they can dream up. Realization. Fear and panic. Honestly, logic and statistics are clearly not their fortè

Don't catch the Covid.

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Ziemia(6a)

Check with your local election office -

I know my mailed ballot was accepted.

"will we know if our vote is counted or if it has been thrown out"

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Ziemia(6a)

Currently, I think, only about 3 states do only mail-in voting.

So, if you hate that, don't live there.

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sheesh(5b)

Ziemia is correct. Each voter can see his/her own voting history where I live. Easy to put your mind at ease. Google it.

Don't catch the Covid.

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Kathy

Check this site to make sure you are registered since the Republicans are purging voters regularly before elections. You don’t want to find out you aren’t registered.

http://www.nass.org/can-I-vote

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shead

"Check this site to make sure you are registered since the Republicans are purging voters regularly before elections. You don’t want to find out you aren’t registered."

Popped back in since our Golden Retriever decided to have her pups today and I'm on doggie midwife duty...lol. I did check the site and guess what - I'm registered to vote in two different states and so is DH! Hilarious!

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

We've been voting by mail (a.k.a. absentee) for years now. If it's too close to the deadline, I often take our signed & sealed mail-in ballots to the drop box at the election supervisor's office. I can check on the elections website to see whether my ballot was received. There's a box on the ballot to check if you want to keep receiving mail-in (a.k.a. absentee) ballots.

And if you decide not to use it after all, you can bring it, unused, to the polling place when you go to vote in person.

I like it, it's way more convenient. I can take my time to look up candidates and issues while I'm filling out my ballot.

FWIW, dead people don't vote, and virtually nobody votes more than once. Election fraud is a much bigger problem than voter fraud and that's been the domain of GOP for years now.

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patriciae_gw(07)

There is nothing about voting in a voting booth that makes your vote any more or less likely to be accepted or thrown out with or without your knowing about it. In one case you vote sitting in your chair at home or maybe in the back yard or in the park then mail it or drop it in a drop box and in the other you go to the polling place and stand in an infected booth and vote. No one tells you immediately if your chad hung or you filled out the form wrong. You can contact the election office. I am one of those states that has only mail in. I love it.

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elvis

Wisconsin: Voters in Wisconsin are eligible for mail-in voting without having to provide an excuse. In May, the Wisconsin Elections Commission approved a plan to send absentee ballot applications to more than 2.7 million registered voters, whether or not they requested one.

Nope. People are often confused by "absentee" vs. "mail-in", including the press.

Who can Request an Absentee Ballot?

Any qualified elector (U.S. citizen, 18 years of age, who has resided in the district in which he or she intends to vote for at least 28 days) who registers to vote is eligible to request an absentee ballot. Under Wisconsin law, voters do not need a reason or excuse, such as being out of town on Election Day, to vote absentee. Any voter who prefers to vote by absentee ballot may request one. You have several options for requesting an absentee ballot and casting your vote.

Request an Absentee Ballot by Mail

If you are a registered Wisconsin voter, you can download the Application For Absentee Ballot (EL-121). Just complete the form and mail it to your municipal clerk's office. You can find your clerk at MyVote WI: myvote.wi.gov by searching for your voter record or performing an address search. You can also find your clerk by searching through the list of all Wisconsin municipal clerks. Your application must be received by the clerk no later than 5:00 p.m. on the Thursday before the election in order for an absentee ballot to be SENT to you. You will also need to provide a copy of your acceptable photo ID with your request. If you have not previously provided a copy of photo ID, photo ID must accompany your first application by mail. More information about photo ID can be found at www.bringit.wi.gov.

If you are not already registered, you will need to register to vote before an absentee ballot can be sent to you.

Voters who are indefinitely confined due to age, illness, infirmity, or disability may request that a ballot be automatically sent to them for each election. Indefinitely confined voters do not need to provide a photo ID with their absentee ballot request. If you or someone you know are indefinitely confined you will make this designation in box 6 of the Application for Absentee Ballot (EL-121). More information on the exceptions to the photo ID law can be found at: http://bringit.wi.gov/are-there-exceptions-new-law

https://elections.wi.gov/voters/absentee

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Ziemia(6a)

No clue what your Nope means, elvis.

Where is "mail-in" voting defined to exclude absentee voting?

My understanding is that all voters with ballots for mailing - get the same ballots and mail them in the same way. Whether they got them as an absentee or just for convenience.

Here in Massachusetts, until this year, you needed to state a reason to get a ballot by mail to return via mail or drop-off.

PS: aren't all absentee ballots mail-in ballots (which includes dropping them off).

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shead

@patriciae_gw, can you describe the safeguards in place in your state to keep bad actors from gaining access to these ballots and thus filling them out and returning them as if someone else was doing so? My concern beyond the inherent ability to commit voter fraud is the massive overwhelming of facilities to process the ballots. I can't imagine an inspector spending an great deal of time comparing signatures when they have 100,000 ballots to process.


As Elvis has pointed out numerous times, absentee ballots (with or without cause) tend to have more security measures in place than mass mail-in balloting.

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Ziemia(6a)

"tend to have more security measures in place than mass mail-in balloting."

Source, please

PPS: Maybe a simpler question - which states have had both absentee ballot applications and just plain mail-in ballot application in the same election year?

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shead

Oregon has spent 10 years perfecting its mail-in ballot procedures and I'm sure there is still some level of fraud. I don't think the 2020 Presidential Election should be the trial run for new states to adopt this procedure.


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deegw

Link to data about Oregon fraud? The only thing I can find notes 15 cases out of 15 million votes.

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dandyfopp

Doing his level best to undermine faith in the process with no evidence.. gosh I wonder why?



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shead

"Link to data about Oregon fraud? The only thing I can find notes 15 cases out of 15 million votes."

The goal of committing voter fraud is to not get caught. Most aren't.

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sheesh(5b)

I don't think you are sure there is still some level of fraud. You want and hope there is some level of fraud to bolster your claim. Big difference.

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shead
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shead

I don't think you are sure there is still some level of fraud. You want and hope there is some level of fraud to bolster your claim.


LOL, if you only knew what I knew and how I learned it. You don't know me, my background, my political experience, what I've witnessed firsthand, etc. Just admit that you know there is some level of fraud whether it's 1% or 20% and you are comfortable with that number because you figure the end justifies the means. (That 'you' is a collective 'you', btw, not 'you' personally.)

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deegw

Is this another, "some guy told me about something that some other guy did"? You should consider a new friend group, it appears that someone is always up to something nefarious.

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shead

You should consider a new friend group,it appears that someone is always up to something nefarious.

I don't presume to know what your backstory is so don't presume to know what mine is. I take offense to being essentially being called a liar about things I have firsthand knowledge of. You know what firsthand means, right?

And why are you attacking me, personally, anyway? Is it a way to skirt around actually discussing the issues? That's seems to be the M.O. around here. Have at it.

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Ziemia(6a)

@shead, thanks.

It confirms what I think I know but it doesn't help me understand what point elvis has been making.

It seems another way to put it is:

#1Absentee ballots automatically sent to all registered voters (no excuse required)

#2Absentee ballots sent to those applying for one (no excuse required)

#3Absentee ballots requiring some explicit excuse sent to those qualifying.

Before this year, my state was #3 & now it's #2

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jmm1837

I am still struggling to see why absentee voting is fine, safe, not subject to fraud, while universal mail voting is the reverse. With absentee ballots, you write in, request an absentee ballot, and get one in the mail, presumably after they check the voter registration records. No actual proof of identity req used. With universal mail in, the only difference is that you don't have to write in: you get a ballot after they check the voter registration records. Presumably, the security measures for the ballots themselves are identical. So the distinction between the two concepts escapes me.

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Joaniepoanie

“ if you only knew what I knew and how I learned it—- things I have firsthand knowledge of”

———-

Anyone can say anything on the internet. If you are going to assert claims, then you should be prepared to reveal what experience/firsthand knowledge you have that makes your claims valid.

How many times has it been pointed out that Trump’s own Voter Fraud Commission shut down after a few months because they found no widespread voter fraud, i.e so little fraud it wouldn’t affect any election.

When I requested my absentee ballot, I had to provide my DL number OR the last four digits of of my SS number.

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Ziemia(6a)

Trump established a voting fraud commission early on. They found close to zero cases and disbanded.

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deegw

I take offense to being essentially being called a liar about things I have firsthand knowledge of. You know what firsthand means, right?

--------------

Shead, you have first-hand knowledge of extensive voter fraud? Did you turn the people in? Is there a news story, study or police record about it that you can link for us?

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shead

Frankly, that’s none of your business. My anonymity would be compromised if I posted links. People were punished. That’s all that matters.

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Ziemia(6a)

shead, then your evidence isn't evidence for others and it falls under a heading such anecdote or idle chat.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Trump accused California -- without proof -- of allowing millions of undocumented immigrants to vote for Hillary in November 2016.

No proof has ever been offered to substantiate Trump's claim, and no official with the CA GOP has initiated an investigation nor charged voter fraud.

Either California has the dumbest GOP in the nation, or our GOP knows that Trump is blowing hot air. Neither Minority Leader McCarthy nor Trump water-carrier Nunes has called for an investigation.

Until I see documented proof of voter fraud in favor of Democrats, I will continue to dismiss anecdotes and second-hand reports.

And I especially dismiss accusations of Democratic voter fraud from Trump himself.

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Ziemia(6a)

@jmm,

I agree with you. I am waiting for elvis to explain as she indicates there is a difference.

elvis: "I've used absentee ballots on more than one occasion, and plan to do so again. It's not exactly the same as voting by mail."

& this "Nope. People are often confused by "absentee" vs. "mail-in", including the press."


Or, maybe shead could provide more specifics: "As Elvis has pointed out numerous times, absentee ballots (with or without cause) tend to have more security measures in place than mass mail-in balloting."

(Without excuses/reasons - mailed ballots is new in my state

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matthias_lang

This mailbox has not been removed, so I used it.


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Trust me when I tell you something that's completely unconfirmed - I know what I'm talking about!

That is just flipping hilarious😉

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Russia is 'amplifying' claims of mail-in voter fraud, intel bulletin warns

Bulletin: “Russian malign influence actors” targeted absentee voting process.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/russia-amplifying-claims-mail-voter-fraud-intel-bulletin/story?id=72799959

From the article:

Russia has sought to “amplify” concerns over the integrity of U.S. elections by promoting allegations that mail-in voting will lead to widespread fraud, according to an intelligence bulletin obtained by ABC News, again echoing a frequent and unfounded complaint raised by President Donald Trump.

Analysts with the Department of Homeland Security’s intelligence branch issued the warning on Thursday to federal and state law enforcement partners after finding with “high confidence” that “Russian malign influence actors” have targeted the absentee voting process “by spreading disinformation” since at least March.

“Russian state media and proxy websites in mid-August 2020 criticized the integrity of expanded and universal vote-by-mail, claiming ineligible voters could receive ballots due to out-of-date voter rolls, leaving a vast amount of ballots unaccounted for and vulnerable to tampering,” the bulletin notes.

“These websites also alleged that vote-by-mail processes would overburden the U.S. Postal Service and local boards of election,” it continues, “delaying vote tabulation and creating more opportunities for fraud and error.”

President Trump has long sought to undermine public confidence in the upcoming election with baseless warnings that mail-in-voting could lead to widespread voter fraud. With the ongoing coronavirus pandemic expected to keep many voters from casting their ballots in-person, more Americans than ever are expected to vote absentee.

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Joaniepoanie

Matthias—-Hope your mail gets there!

To help the post office deal with election mail—-NO mailing OR ordering anything from October 15 to November 5—that means no sending cards or bills or ordering stuff from the internet.

Lighten their load and hoodwink Trump.

Hand-carry your ballot to your BOE or polling place if possible.


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shead

“Trust me when I tell you something that's completely unconfirmed - I know what I'm talking about!

That is just flipping hilarious😉“


I don’t give a flying fig if you find it hilarious or not. My experiences inform my opinion and your lack of experience informs yours. You don’t have to believe me......

As Michelle Obama says, “When they go low, we go high.” I think I’ll follow her advice right now.

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elvis

Ziemia(6a)

No clue what your Nope means, elvis. Where is "mail-in" voting defined to exclude absentee voting?

Wisconsin doesn't have vote by mail. It does have absentee voting, however. One must request the absentee ballot, and may return it via mail by following instructions.

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Ziemia(6a)

elvis, how is that different from "vote by mail"?

"Wisconsin doesn't have vote by mail. It does have absentee voting, however. One must request the absentee ballot, and may return it via mail by following instructions."

From my readings, there is no to little difference.

Whether one's state automatically sends a ballot out to registered voters, or has a registered voter apply for ballot to be mailed out **without* the need for an excuse, or only mails one to registered voters after one has submitted an application with a reason for needing that ballot mailed - these are ALL examples of voting by mail. (And they many allow in-person return as well.)

OR, in Wisconsin maybe the absentee ballots are not returnable by mail?

Here in Massachusetts, we used to only have mailed ballots for those with an excuse on a list. This year, all of us are eligible for the absentee (mailed) ballots.

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Ziemia(6a)

More

I don't see that Wisconsin is making that distinction you are.

https://elections.wi.gov/


Why am I persisting? I want to ensure I understand this process which is new for me and for so many others. And so I check things when they confuse me or I am told I am wrong (or something I quoted us wrong).


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Kathy

Shead, it isn’t illegal to be registered in more than one state, it is however a felony to vote in both.

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Kathy

Elvis may be referring to Universal mail-in voting which is where they mail a ballot to all registered voters instead of just those who requested an absentee ballot. It is confusing. I’m not even sure there is a distinction made by those who are against it.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Kathy, That is the supposed issue for conservatives. Somehow the way I vote where the state simply sends me a registered voter a ballot is suspect to them. I get that ballot, specific to me personally, fill it out, sign the outside envelope and send it back whether by mail(paid for by my state) or put in a drop box at multiple safe locations around my county. For Shead, when I fill out and sign this ballot and am lying I am committing voter fraud. When I sign it there is a part that I should read If I am not me that says signing this fraudulently is against the law. My signature WILL BE COMPARED to my signature on file. If there is any question I WILL BE CONTACTED. When I used to go to the local polling place they did not ask me for ID. They had me sign the registration book and compared my signature. If there had been an issue I would have had to prove who I was but that never happened. This form of voting is practically glitch free. For those states who havent done this before since we are Americans too I do hope that your state isnt so stupid that they would not ask states that have done this for years without incident how they do it. I get that xenophobic Americans cant learn from other countries but surely you could learn from Oregon or Washington? We are Americans and care about the validity of elections.

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Kathy

Patriciae, I was answering Ziemia who seemed to be confused. I have no concerns about any kind of mail in voting. I do however have a concern when the POTUS tells people to commit a felony to test the system.

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Izzy Mn(4)

Besides it being investigated by Republicans and found no voter fraud there is a report that Russia is trying to influence us regarding voter fraud.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/03/politics/russia-intel-bulletin-mail-in-voting-warning/index.html

"The new bulletin from the DHS Office of Intelligence and Analysis underscores two concerning facts: First, as the Intelligence Community confirmed last month, Russia is once again seeking to interfere in our elections and sow distrust in our democratic process. And second, among the range of measures it is pursuing, Russia is echoing destructive and false narratives around vote by mail that President Trump and his enablers, including Attorney General Barr, have been aggressively promoting," Schiff said in a statement"

So if you are repeating this narrative you are perpetuating a Russian one and have been influenced by them, along with the Bidens not mentally fit one. Obviously Trump and Barr are going along with the Russian interference, they are becoming one and the same.

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elvis

Ziemia(6a)

elvis, how is that different from "vote by mail"?

"Wisconsin doesn't have vote by mail. It does have absentee voting, however. One must request the absentee ballot, and may return it via mail by following instructions."

From my readings, there is no to little difference.

This is a pretty good explanation:

Although specific requirements vary by state, absentee ballots are limited in use, requested by a voter providing a specific address, and contain a signature as an affidavit on the ballot envelope. Voter identity is then verified by an election official through signature comparisons using a state database, notary or witness confirmation, or inclusion of photo ID.

“Automatic” or “universal” mail-only voting schemes currently proposed by Democrats are entirely different and completely insecure. Ballots are not requested, but sent to an address without confirming that the recipient is still there, or even still alive. Millions of unverifiable ballots could potentially fall into the wrong hands. This is particularly problematic in residential centers with high turnover rates like senior residences and apartment complexes. Not all incorrect applications or ballots will fall into the hands of the honest. They could be used illegally through misunderstanding by incorrect recipients, present vote fraud opportunities for ballot harvesting activists, or send confused and ineligible non-citizens to the polls just because a ballot appeared on their doorsteps.

https://townhall.com/columnists/kerritoloczko/2020/08/12/mailonly-v-absentee-ballots-one-of-these-is-not-like-the-other-n2574193

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jmm1837

I am still not seeing the problem. If signature-matching works for absentee ballots, why won't exactly the same procedure work for universal mail in? The universal mail-in ballot is not going to just anyone: it's going to an existing, registered voter. Surely, there's some sort of bar code identifying the voter to whom the ballot was sent. If it falls into the wrong hands, the signature comparison should reveal any fraud or error.

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elvis

Theoretically.

The US is a whole lot bigger and more complicated than your country. If it was not, I suspect you wouldn't have so much interest in us.

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Izzy Mn(4)

Fact checking Barr's claim someone in Texas submitted 1,700 fraudulent ballots. False...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/03/politics/william-barr-cnn-wolf-blitzer-interview-fact-check/index.html

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elvis

Izzy Mn(4)

Fact checking Barr's claim someone in Texas submitted 1,700 fraudulent ballots.

What claim?

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jmm1837

Theoretically. Indeed. So, in fact, you have no particular grounds to believe there would be a substantive difference between the two forms of postal voting. You're just more familiar with one than the other.

By the way, your condescension is off base. I've spent time in a lot of different places, many of them at least as complex as the US, some much more so. I've been interested in them all, and learned from quite a few of them. No nation has all the answers to the issues most of us have: economic disparity, systemic racism, health care, dysfunctional political structures, etc etc. We should try to learn from one another. And there are certainly lessons the US could learn (but won't).

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Kathy

Five states have mail in voting and no major fraud has been found so far. It’s a Russian disinformation campaign pushed by Trump and his lackeys.

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Ziemia(6a)

Elvis, I think I see the distinction you see. Thank you.

The terminology does get in the way as all the ballots you describe are mail-in ballots. I'm not yet certain all states make that distinction as you do. You are emphasizing the difference in how the voter gets the ballot - do they have to first apply for it or is it automatically sent to them.

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numbersjunkie


Just like his Boss, he takes no responsibility and places blame on someone else. Our top law enforcement official is spouting "fake news".

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Barr is just an old Harry Potter who eventually joined forces with the Slytherin team.

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Izzy Mn(4)

Elvis

Izzy Mn(4)

Fact checking Barr's claim someone in Texas submitted 1,700 fraudulent ballots.

What claim?

-----

If you didn't bother looking at the link then why bother asking me.

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Ziemia(6a)

Seems others have been focusing on seeing the difference between absentee and mail-in (I have not checked the facts such about the 9 states)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/04/fact-check-absentee-mail-in-ballots-handled-same/5610886002/

Claim: Absentee ballots and mail-in ballots are not the same



“Do you know the difference between mail-in ballot vs. absentee ballot? Absentee ballot REQUIRES you to prove who you are! Mail-in DOES NOT!” a post on Facebook reads.

The claim echoes those made by President Donald Trump, who has alleged that absentee voting and mail-in voting are different — and that one is more vulnerable to fraud than the other.

...

As voting absentee expanded, the terminology evolved. According to the National Conference of State Legislators, states have chosen to use different terms to describe absentee voting, including “advance ballots,” “mailed ballots,” “by-mail ballots,” “mail ballots” or “vote-by-mail ballots.”


Despite differing terminology, it all refers to the same thing: using mail to deliver ballots and sending those filled-out ballots back via mail as well.

Generally speaking, the term “absentee ballot” typically refers to ballots that are requested and then mailed, while “mail-in ballot” — though often used interchangeably with “absentee” in a way that’s also correct — might refer to universal mail-in policies in some states.

...

Only nine states and the District of Columbia plan to hold universal mail-in elections this year, USA TODAY reported.

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jmm1837

I thinks its important to include the relevant part of the fact check here:


"To vote by mail, voters must include personal identifying information, such as an address, birthday, driver's license number or last four digits of a Social Security number. A voter’s remaining personal information is matched against the information stored on voter rolls, such as a signature."


And further:


"But the only difference between the absentee and universal mail-in voting is that in states that use universal mail-in voting, registered voters don’t have to ask to have ballots sent to them. Regardless of the system, a person must be registered to vote to receive the ballot. And for any mailed-in vote to be counted, the voter's information must be verified by state elections officials."


In other words, as I suspected, there is no difference between absentee ballots and universal mail in when it comes to verifying the validity of the ballot cast.


So, Elvis's "theoretically" is in fact the way mail -in voting, whether universal or by request, is actually conducted.

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elvis

in states that use universal mail-in voting, registered voters don’t have to ask to have ballots sent to them

That is the problem.

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jmm1837

You still haven't said why that is a problem. If every returned ballot has to satisfy the same ID requirements, where's the room for fraud?

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steve2416

I requested my mail-in ballot yesterday.

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shead

“You still haven't said why that is a problem. If every returned ballot has to satisfy the same ID requirements, where's the room for fraud?“

The room for fraud comes from ballots being sent to dead people, convicted felons, etc. who have not been removed from the registry and those ballots being returned with no way to catch the fact that the ballots are ineligible unless a full scale audit is done.

What is so wrong about making people who want to vote by mail request the ballot themselves? Let others vote in person if they like. Have early voting stations to spread out the crowds. These aren’t hard concepts.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Dead people don't vote.

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Izzy Mn(4)

There has been plenty of reports that making in person voting difficult even prior to covid, especially in poorer areas, and it has not improved. Why would it all of a sudden would we except in person voting improvement. Have you not seen the hours long waiting in lines?

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Nana H

It is my understanding that in most of the States using mail in voting they mail you a form that you can then use to request a mail in ballot. Maybe someone knows the parameters for each State rather than these generalities.

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jmm1837

"The room for fraud comes from ballots being sent to dead people, convicted felons, etc. who have not been removed from the registry and those ballots being returned with no way to catch the fact that the ballots are ineligible unless a full scale audit is done. "

The article makes it clear that all postal votes, whether absentee or universal mail in, are verified by comparing ID/signatures against electoral role details. If Person A gets Person B's ballot, he isn't going to be able to provide B's verification details. The only way to vote fraudulently would require collusion among the electoral officials, which is a different issue entirely.

What's so hard about mailing out ballots to all registered voters? It's not a hard concept either, and it reduces the number of steps in the process for both voters and electoral officials.

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shead

“Dead people don't vote.“

Really now?!? Lol.


Here’s a little funny to lighten the mood....


https://youtu.be/WUEqh07E4dY

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shead

“If Person A gets Person B's ballot, he isn't going to be able to provide B's verification details.”

Not necessarily true. I would have husband’s, my kids’, my parent’s, etc. info.

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Kathy

I think the fact it is a felony is a deterrent. I doubt many people even thought about fraudulent voting in the past but maybe more so now.

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jmm1837

For crying out loud. Exactly the same issue applies if you ask for absentee ballots for family members. There's no difference between the risk levels.

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Kathy

Republicans have purged more than necessary in predominately Dem and minority neighborhoods so chances are many who think they are registered might not find out until it’s too late.


Trump and Russia are making it an issue to detract from Russian interference.

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elvis

Trump and Russia are making it an issue to detract from Russian interference.

Cite your source, please.

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Ziemia(6a)

Trump is making it an issue. Multiple sources.

National Security

Russia is working to undermine confidence in voting by mail, DHS warns

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/voting-by-mail-russia-trump-barr/2020/09/04/e3f0e500-ee60-11ea-99a1-71343d03bc29_story.html

Silly

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Really have to wonder about folks who seem to be unaware of national news items. I've seen & heard reporting on the nat'l security warnings about Russian interference for days now.

Are some here uninformed, in a disinformation bubble, or just being disingenuous?

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palisades_

So I read about drive- through voting. That could be a solution to avoid the delay and trouble with USPS. People who are unable to vote in person can have a drive to the drive-through window to perform their civic duty. And plan to vote early to avoid the long line.

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sheesh(5b)

Have you seen the length of the lines at drive though Covid testing places?

Don't catch the Covid.

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Ziemia(6a)

At least it seems we've narrowed it down to what the TrumpFans worry is (mostly - until it isn't) - it's about mailing ballots to registered voters without requiring an application being submitted.

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patriciae_gw(07)

As I did state some time ago voting and mailing some one else's ballot is against the law and the repercussions are potentially very serious. That you could spend years in prison seems to have been working for a very long time. Why is it suddenly not enough of a deterrent? Voting fraud gets plenty of research. No one finds much of it. It is virtually nonexistent. We have a lot of trouble getting American citizens to vote. How on earth are you going to get them to vote fraudulently when the risk is prison when they are too lazy to vote legally?

By the way we are being asked to not lick our envelopes but to use water to moisten the glue. How is that for a state that thinks of people as important including the people who process the ballots.

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