I just downloaded Mary Trump's book from my library. I don't know how much reading I'll get in while my evacuated daughter and pets are still here, but we'll see.

I'm on the second book of the Outlander series. This one is Dragonfly in Amber. A thick book, 750 page hardcover.

I'm about ½ way through Unsheltered, Barbara Kingsolver's latest. Absolutely loving it so far, although I think it's going to get rougher to read as the story unfolds more.

I enjoyed Gone Girl so much that I downloaded another of Gillian Flynn's books, Sharp Objects, and it was just as interesting. Shades of Stephen King for the way- out subject matter that Flynn uses in her stories. 4.5 stars again. Now I am off to find Flynn's Dark Places for my next read.

Chisue, I know what you mean about male authors writing women characters. In Nothing to See Here, although I loved the book I felt that one very central, early plot point (no spoilers here) was way mishandled as far as how someone actually would have felt and responded.

I also deleted a critical but way too lengthy review a few days ago that was mostly based on the same issue. Celine, recommended here, felt to me like a botched effort by a guy to write about a woman who came off as a ridiculous super hero.

Those that have read Gone Girl, that is the name of a movie we watched a few years ago. It would have to be the same.

I am in a minority, but I found key plot points of Gone Girl implausible...even if the character IS mentally unstable.

@runninginplace -- I recommended Celine, but can see your point. I'm always glad to see an author blast the adoption myth that a mother 'forgets' a surrendered child, or that a legal document magically transforms an adoptee into a 'generic' replacement.

Finished We Are All the Same in the Dark. Decent writing, kind of overwrought plot. Just another entirely forgettable mystery. 2.5 to 3 stars.

I'm always very skeptical of male authors writing in a female voice, but one of my favorite books of all time was written by Michael Dorris - Yellow Raft in Blue Water - in a female voice. He changed my mind about it. I read another popular novel recently that was written by a man in a woman's voice that I loved, too, but I'll have to look back to try to figure out what it was.

I got Redhead by the Side of the Road from the library on kindle and started that. It's a pretty short book so I am about halfway through,.I believe it's the latest Anne Tyler . I have read a few of hers, and probably should read more. Definitely interesting and easy reads.

Chisue, Peter Heller can write some amazingly beautiful prose; unfortunately though I found the character he created utterly ridiculous.

Olychick I won't read Michael Dorris' work because of what he allegedly did to his children.

running, I read that book many years before any allegations were made, but I agree. I won't watch Woody Allen for similar reasons, even though I used to love his work.

Something I've observed month after month in this thread that I've been wondering if I should mention but now will because others have.

This may be a case of Duh on me, discovering something that's obvious to everyone else, but it's interesting that the many books mentioned here by the mostly female Kitchen Table participants seem to be disproportionately written by female authors. Maybe it's the tone, maybe it's the perspectives or subject matters covered that are commonly of interest to female readers, I don't know. Obviously each gender and all individuals are unique and different.

I know I've found this in reverse - trying and failing to get interested in Sue Grafton's popular series was an example. There were too many instances of the main character getting up with a described feeling of "she knew it was going to be one of those days when she wouldn't be feeling right, people would look funny at her hair, and wondering if......" This is completely arbitrary and maybe the character is frumpy, I don't remember, but the point was that the descriptions pointed out feelings and concerns that were quite foreign to me as a male. Maybe a female reader would be empathetic and drawn in to someone sharing a common experience. Maybe I have this wrong. I just couldn't find her work engaging. I've found many (not all) female authors to be similar to an extent. Maybe what I find uninteresting is what draws in female readers. Duh on me.

Well I have just discovered a new, to me, author. I just finished The Irish Cowboy by D.W. Ulsterman. That led me to reading Savage, entirely different but linked by location and history to the former book. So,now I am starting his Mac Walker series where the protagonist is a former Navy Seal.

Things I’ve loved recently: The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix Harrow-just a great, creative fantasy. This is How You Lose the Time War by Amar El-Mohtar-epistolary novel about love between two time traveling enemies. Like nothing else I’ve ever read. I’ve also read a lot that’s mediocre this month, so that’s depressing.

Elmer, I'm only speaking for myself.

As a woman I don't particularly favor woman writers. In fact, sometimes I do judge a book by its cover (or more appropriately its summary) and I can tell you I'm not drawn to romance or "chick lit" if that's even a term. I don't like chick flicks either. If romance enters into a story, it's okay, I guess. Yet I find that I love a lot of books written by women, not necessary because they're women, but because they're really good writers, e.g., The Song of Achilles and Circe by Madeline Miller. Lots of good books written by women. And men. I don't favor one over the other.

I finished Where The Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens and thought it was a great book. Started About Your Father and Other Celebrities I Have Known by Peggy Rowe. I am enjoying it so far.

I read Celine soon after it was released in 2017 and recommended it here. I was utterly charmed by the character Celine.. but more so charmed by the woman who inspired the character (Peter Heller's mother). I accept that any one book may not be loved by others as much as it is by me. There are plenty of books I haven't enjoyed.. but I will say that i appreciated it more knowing that it was a beautiful and fun love letter to Caro. Peter Heller on the woman who inspired Celine

I read Dan Silva's The Order a few weeks ago. I have read all of Silva's Gabriel Allon series and enjoy the series-- but this was not my favorite. It was ok but it felt rushed.. and i suspect a lot of late in the process additions/rewrites. Still.. I look forward to the next one (next summer!).

I am still reading but i have been working like crazy (80 hr last week)-- so i am sticking with lighter fare... I've been enjoying the Aaron Elkins Gideon Oliver series recommended here. I am currently midway through Icy Clutches.

ETA: i read male and female authors.. i would guess i read more male authors but gender isn't part of my consideration when choosing my next read.

I tend to prefer women authors. I don't read "chick lit" either or romance novels. I find that many male authors write their female characters badly. It can spoil an otherwise good book. I find them too flat and hard to identify with.

Oly, the Woody Allen comparison is very apt- I also boycott his work for similar reasons.

As for Celine, another case of one woman's meat is another woman's really lousy read LOL. I knew about Heller basing the character on his mother and it's lovely of a writer to create a book in homage to a much loved parent. But I still didn't enjoy the fictional version or the book overall.

Today I picked up a new nonfiction read that was on, I think, this week's NYT list of 11 books they recommend, A Furious Sky-The Five-Hundred History of America's Hurricanes.

Having just warily watched Laura sidestep my area and now head toward the Gulf coast, it is definitely a timely read. There are quite a few of these sites that we dive on regularly so hurricane history is particularly interesting to me because of where i live.

"I find that many male authors write their female characters badly. It
can spoil an otherwise good book. I find them too flat and hard to
identify with."

This is enlightening for me. You may or may not find it interesting that while I'm a long term and enthusiastic reader, the notion of whether I do or don't identify with a character in a book has never occurred to me.

I am in the middle of Lucy Foley's The Guest List. I had previously read The Hunting Party and greatly enjoyed it. This is a who-done-it at a wedding gathering on an island off the coast of Ireland. Though that sounds cliche, it is anything but. Her writing style has been compared to Agatha Christie. This story can be dark but has some laugh out loud moments.

Elmer, this is not the first time you've raised the gender issue. IIRC, you noted that our mostly female book group included mostly female authors in their book list, though we certainly don't look at books by author gender when making our selections...rather it's all about the plot/topic, ratings and popularity. We all vote based on our individual interests in reading a particular book. I suppose it's not surprising that books dealing with women's issues are more likely to show up, and that they're more likely to be written by women.

I find it interesting that you never try to identify with a character. I always do...look for something I do or don't have in common...think about how I would've reacted in a situation and whether or not I find their reaction to the situation believable or not based on my life experience and so on. When I read about someone trying to keep the plane from crashing, I'm in the co-pilot seat. I loved the Hornblower series and I was getting tossed in those seas right next to Horatio...that's what makes them so enjoyable. Of course, whenever I watch Fred and Ginger movies, Ginger is out and that's *me* dancing with Fred!

I just finished reading Trustee from the Toolroom, and while I was reading it, I was wondering how women might relate to all the discussions of tools and fabrications and engineering. I related just fine as we have a tool shop and I learned to run the lathe when I was 14, and my Dad was a toolmaker. But I doubt that sort of text would be likely to show up in a book by a female author...at least not yet.

I wonder if it's easier for women to relate to both male and female authors as women live in a "man's world" whereas men are less likely to be exposed to "women's world"...maybe why it's more difficult for you to relate to Kinsey Milhone's bad hair days than it is for women. I've enjoyed all of those books, and Kinsey was the one who got me running 3 miles a day in my younger days.

(NB I'm generalizing and not saying *all* men or *all* women.)

I can’t recall ever choosing a book based on the authors gender. My book club has read books by both men and women. I particularly enjoyed Less by Andrew Sean Greer. I’m currently reading The Heart’s Invisible Furies by John Boyne.

i finished The Vanishing Half and recommend it. It’s about reinventing yourself as well as the hierarchy of skin color within the Black community. The author does a very good job of addressing this topic. There’s plenty here for a juicy discussion at book club.

I was about to say that although it's not a conscious decision I probably read more women authors than men. But then I remembered my favorite mystery writers--all male.

I don't think I have to identify with any of the characters, but I have to care about at least one. What happens to them has to matter to me.

When it comes to gender, sometimes it's not just the writing, but the spoken interpretation that can fall flat. Like when the male narrator of an audio book puts on a falsetto voice to read female dialogue. Ugh.

Two of the short stories I've had published in Woman's World were written from the male point of view. I enjoyed the challenge, but the stories are very short and very light, so it was relatively easy to maintain the voice.

I think I need to be able walk in the character's shoes, at least briefly, to engage in the story.

Didn't the novel start out as light entertainment for bored upper class 'ladies'? First authors were men, later women with male pen names, and later still, women under their own names.

I can't remember where I read it, but 'romance' novels apparently were popularized in the US by a soap maker (Procter & Gamble?). They gave them away inside boxes of laundry detergent. (Duz?) The books became so popular that a market for similarly tame erotic fantasies was established. IMO, the Outlander series fits this description. (Now I'm thinking of the old Calgon tagline, "Calgon, take me away!")

What were some early *serious* novels? And when?

Well novels date back to the 1400s and 1500s, so far earlier than Proctor and Gamble.

Their Eyes Were Watching God - 1937 - not sure how early you're thinking.

Frankenstein - 1800's. Is that serious?

Uncle Tom's Cabin, also the 1800's

The Heart is a Lonely Hunter 1940

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn -1943

A Raisin in the Sun -1959

What were some early *serious* novels? And when?

The Tale of Genji was written, by a woman, in the 11th c.

Don Quixote was written in 1605.

ETA: In English, Robinson Crusoe was published in 1719. And here's a list of possible earlier ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_claimed_first_novels_in_English

If the essence of what a novel is, is that it's a fictional portrayal intended to entertain the reader and relate, educate, explore or explain, etc., using a made up sequence of events human or otherwise, then forgetting the prose form used, both Beowulf (year 1000 or earlier) and The Canterbury Tales (~1400) were novels. And, likely, these were not the only such works prepared at the time and were each one of many. But they are the sole survivors through all the centuries. As far as collections that are a series of fictional stories, maybe Scandinavian sagas belong in this category and some would say some religious references that are a bit older do too.

I thought we were talking about early novels by women? Maybe I misunderstood.

olychick, I thought chisue was asking about the origin of the novel in general. But if we're talking about women, then let's not forget Jane Austen!

Oh, I did misunderstand. I thought it was a question about early novels by women that were "serious," thus my list of alternatives to the soap box novels, lol!

"Elmer, this is not the first time you've raised the gender issue. IIRC, you noted that our mostly female book group included mostly female authors in their book list,"

If before my comment was about what you'd mentioned about books for your book club, and now my comment was about posts in the monthly thread, I'd say those are different comments concerning different things about different groups but if you think they're the same, fine. Some book clubs have an affinity for particular styles - science fiction, women's' issues, politics. Whatever your book club does or doesn't do wasn't mentioned and doesn't matter.

Many people (unfortunately not enough) mull over thoughts in their mind before concluding about them and expressing them. That's where the "did I mention this to you before" circumstance comes from. It would be easier for you to remember something I mentioned once, than for me to remember if I'd expressed the idea or had only been thinking about it. Which is exactly how I said it above, something I'd observed and had been thinking about.

No harm, no foul. Carry on!

That’s too bad Elmer. I was hoping you would comment on my supposition that women spend more time in a man’s world than men spend in women’s. Whether that fit with your experience or not.

George Eliot (nom de plume of Mar Ann Evans), Virginia Woolf, Jane Austen, Pearl S. Buck ... all of preeminent literary stature. And I’m not even going back to earlier times or mentioning other languages.

Interestingly enough, Mary Ann Evans wrote under the pen name George Eliot to avoid the stereotype of female writers dabbling in light romance.

My two cents: any writer worth their salt, male or female, can boil down the essence of human behavior in its various manifestations, no matter the dimension, be it cultural, social, gender-based or historical.

Perhaps because the stereotype of female authors dabbling in “light” and “emotional” subject, I engage in a perverted form of gender-discrimination: silly romantic novels or poorly written serious novels by *women* grate on me more than mediocre or silly work by men.

"That’s too bad Elmer. I was hoping you would comment on my supposition that women spend more time in a man’s world than men spend in women’s. Whether that fit with your experience or no"

Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking me a question. Your earlier comment seemed like a personal musing and not something directed to me. I don't duck questions.

Female friends and work colleagues (with whom I've had such discussions) don't seem to share your expressed attitude as broadly as I think you assume they do. I was in what had been (and is no longer) a male-dominated profession and I went out of my way early-on to mentor women to be successful as attitudes changed. In later years, the second half plus some of my career span, women were on an equal footing with men. Capabilities and intelligence have no gender correlation as far as I'm concerned.

Otherwise, I have no way of knowing about female (or male) attitudes that aren't directly expressed and I don't assume anything or try to guess. You can if you want.

Did you have a career in circumstances where you felt that your opportunities as a women were inferior? In what ways did/do you feel yourself to be in a man's world?

Oh dear...I started typing a very long answer and realized that this would probably derail this thread too far from where it should be.

I'll start a new thread...feel free to join me there if you wish.

Sure, happy to. It's an interesting topic with lots of opinions and different experiences, I'm sure. If you'd like me to move my comment from above to there. let me know.

Thanks Elmer...we're good to go...unless you're unhappy with the recap I did...then feel free to add it to the new thread: Women living in a Man's World?

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5984015/women-living-in-a-man-s-world#n=3

I'd guestimate that 95% of the books that I read are written by men. Because they tend to write in the genres that I enjoy reading.

Exceptions have been Girl On a Train (gift book), Tatooist of Auschwitz (gift), The Huntress, The Deep End of the Ocean (laying around the house, origin?) and the book that I am currently reading, Titian: His Life. I bought Titian after reading another author recommend it. Girl & Deep End were subpar, Tatooist was pretty good but a bit unbelieveable, Huntress was reasonably good and Titian is quite good. Titian is as much about the Renaissance and life in Venice during the 1500's and the countering forces of the Reformation as it is about Titian. Quite dense history.

I don't totally avoid books by women authors but do gravitate away from them.

Annie can you maybe put a link to Home Dec Conv too? I wouldn't have known where it was since I don't habituate KT.

I just finished The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett, I enjoyed it. I finished All The Way To The Tigers by Mary Morris today, it was a great glimpse into India and a woman's quest to see tigers in their natural habitat after a debilitating accident. A friend recommended Scythe by Neal Shusterman that was ok, I am not really into science fiction. I also listened twice to the audible book Thicker Than Water by Tyler Schultz the whistleblower of the Theranos scandal. It was fabulous. I am now reading Pico Iyer's, The Lady and The Monk. Has anyone here read Pico Iyer? He is an amazing writer, poetic in a realistic relatable way. I am enjoying seeing Kyoto through his descriptions. This has been been my August reading. I also started The Island of The Sea of Women by Lisa See. I put it down halfway through, not for me. Lisa See is one of my favorite authors, but I did not enjoy this book.

Back to "The Lacuna" by Barbara Kingsolver. Trying to catch up on nearly a year's worth of National Geographic magazines at work too.

Bunny, I don't think I can post the thread in both places now. OPs are only editable for an hour.

Hooked, 123, I loved The Island of Sea Women for the first ½, too, but like you, had to put it down partially read. I had no knowledge of the war between Japan and Korea and when that came into the story, I just couldn't read any more. I felt so sad about it, because I loved the first part so much.

Thanks, Bookwoman. That's what I was looking for...early novels that were considered 'serious' (illuminating?) -- as opposed to mildly erotic tales intended for 'gentlewomen', the forerunners of today's 'bodice-rippers'. I was also thinking *printed* books, not oral, and not promoting a specific religion/cult.

I just finished Boyne's Traveler At The Gates Of Wisdom. It was (probably?) worth wading through all the repetitive 'histories' to reach the last two chapters -- one a present day picture continuing the same sad theme of 'human nature', and the last a hopeful bit of sugar...to help the medicine go down?

On Tyranny, by Timothy Snyder, was strongly recommended to me, and it arrived today. I'll start it tomorrow. It's a small book. Amazon says, "#1 New York Times Bestseller • A history of fascism offers a guide for surviving and resisting America's turn towards authoritarianism."

I read The Order this weekend. It was a bit different from the usual Gabriel Allon thriller. Rather than the huge and very complex global plot lines that the author usually creates, this book focused on a narrow and specific story. Loved it though since by this point as in most good series the enjoyment is in spending time with comfortable literary friends.

Then I started The Guest Listwhich was also on the NYT summer reading list, and which has gotten a lot of buzz. So far it's running true to form: very formulaic and I am gobbling up chapters like chips straight out of the bag :).