Herman Cain dead.

dandyfopp

Wear your damn masks.

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elvis

What a shame. RIP, Herman Cain.

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Kathy

What a shame he fell for the charletain president who minimizes the risks and seriousness because his economy is more important to his re-election.

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dandyfopp

We won't ever know.

I hope the medical staff who had to treat him survive unscathed.

Needless reckless stupidity all to honor Donnie.

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lurker111

Good grief!

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isabellagracepan

That is so awful. I hope his family can find comfort together. It is so sad.

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Stan Areted

Goodbye Mr. Cain

You were a brilliant businessman and by all acounts, a very nice man.

Thank you, and thank you for your love of this country and your patriotism, for sharing it.

See you!

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Izzy Mn(4)

Sad. He was diagnosed 6-29, just over a week after attending trumps' Tulsa rally.

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norar_il

Why on earth would anyone laugh at someone's death?

ETA The remark this was aimed at has been removed. I guess the original poster decided it wasn't funny after all.

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leona_2008

May his family be comforted and may his death cause others to wake up to the truth that Covid is deadly.

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mr1010

Very sad to hear. But Oh, so predictable. why do people discount the warnings?

I just read this week that after being hospitalized for 3 weeks he was still requiring oxygen. I knew it didn't sound good, at his age.

Stay in people and wear your masks.

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dandyfopp

Right now Trump twitter is celebrating the line of people waiting to see Mike.

And if you want to see a living example of various comorbidities, have a look, they are commonplace and two guesses what isn't.


This stupidity is deadly.

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blfenton

Herman Cain was a cancer survivor but covid19 wouldn't be beaten. My sympathies are with his wife and children

He didn't believe in the wearing of masks or physical distancing, a true trump supporter to the end.

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vedabeeps

“Cain joined Trump in actively campaigning against masks. In a tweet sent just before he was admitted to the hospital earlier this month, he praised Trump’s decision not to mandate mask-wearing at the president’s July 4 outdoor rally at Mount Rushmore.

“Masks will not be mandatory for the event, which will be attended by President Trump,” Cain wrote. “PEOPLE ARE FED UP!”

The tweet was deleted after his death Thursday.“


https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/herman-cain-dead-covid-143229190.html


My sympathy lies with the health care workers that were forced to care for him because of his arrogance. A friends husband, who is an ER nurse, got Covid-19 from idiots like this.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Oh I am shocked and sorry to hear this.

If any good can come from his passing, it may be that with his celebrity, people will stop treating this disease like a hoax, and the message that wearing a mask saves lives will spread farther and wider.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I am of the same mind. I can be sorry for his family and their loss but he did this to himself and worse doubtless others who paid attention to him. When you are responsible for encouraging people to kill themselves we normally have a jaundiced view of you. It would be better if he had lived to admit he was wrong and encourage people to do better than he did but I suppose some conservatives would have written him off if he had. I too hope his care givers came out of this ok.

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terezosa / terriks

Oh I am shocked and sorry to hear this.

I'm sorry, but definitely not shocked.

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Gooster(9)

May he rest in peace.

My hope that his family's loss will inspire others, especially those in high risk categories, to follow the guidance on social distancing, mask wearing and hand washing. At the elevated rate of infection currently being seen, any large gathering is highly likely to include an infected person.

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nickel_kg(6)

His brief presidential run provided some giggles. Too bad covid wasn't a joke.

Wishing his family and friends comfort, peace, and better judgement than he had.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

My condolences to his family and friends.

*

Had science been respected, and valued more than a political campaign, Cain would still be with us.

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deegw

I wonder about the status of the people that attended with him? How sad and completely avoidable.

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Jamie(SW TN 7b/8a HZ8)

I have no feelings one way or another about his death. However given the blatant disrespect and contempt he showed for millions of LGBTQ+ citizens of this country, I had absolutely no respect for him.

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Izzy Mn(4)

I'm sorry for the people that listened to and followed their example of not wearing face masks at large, crowded assemblies and that they are at risk of catching and spreading the virus. My sympathies are running a little thin these days.

My sympathies to his family of course. I wouldn't wish for this to happen. By the way, this is not hate. It's resignation that some people just don't do the smart thing and can harm others in the process.

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chisue

Death by Covid-19 is harsh. He evidently caused it by making bad choices -- following his leader down a stupid path, putting commercial gain ahead of his health and ignoring his responsibility to protect others.

Did he infect family members, medical staff, or others?

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kadefol

We have no idea where Mr. Cain became infected, how he acquired the
virus, or if he even infected anyone else, or if not wearing a mask, or
wearing a mask contributed to his acquisition.

He was a staunch and vocal anti-masker and busy attending rallies with other anti-maskers. Masks help prevent covid, as evidenced by new cases leveling out in TX since Gov. Abbott made masks mandatory.

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Kathy

Cain will never know if that mask could have saved his life. It definitely wouldn’t have hurt. If I have to make a choice I choose a mask. Just in case.

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barncatz

I'm with Annie. Maybe his prominent role in the Trump band will shock some of the doubters into behavior that protects them and the rest of us. And I also agree with terriks - his death should not shock any of us.

I wonder how the unmasked Texas VIPs from yesterday's rally are feeling today.

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Gizmo

From yesterday:



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Toby

If he was a Democrat, he likely would have worn a mask and he would be alive today. But like other Republicans, he was FED UP.

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elvis

leona_2008

May his family be comforted and may his death cause others to wake up to the truth that Covid is deadly.

On the good chance that someone reading here contracts covid-19, why not be factual? Yes, covid-19 can be deadly. But please don't make anyone who has it freak out, chances are incredibly high that they won't die from it. The last thing they need right now is more anxiety.

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Toby

He hasn't said a word about Herman on Twitter, despite him being the co-chair of Black Voices for Trump. Ironically he did tweet to promote a Long Island pizza parlor this morning. Maybe he just wasn't a fan of Godfather's Pizza.

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Remember, the masks we are now told to wear are not meant to protect you, they are meant to protect others. Unless they are N95 masks, you are not protected


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blfenton

They may not die from it but the long term effects are as yet fully unknown.

So why not just try to stop getting it or giving it.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Those that aren't wearing masks could use a little more anxiety. If nothing else, to protect those around them.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Remember, the masks we are now told to wear are not meant to protect you, they are meant to protect others.

Having a hard time keeping up? To some, the earth is flat. Still.

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cattyles

Fact: There is protection to those wearing a mask. If both are wearing masks, more protection.

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KarenS, NYC

Sadly, I had to look up who this man was, as I didn't know his name. Sad too when anyone dies, but it does sound like he's got himself to thank for following DJT's example & making politics of mask use.

Dandy, pls say who Mike is that you say folks are lining up to see. I haven't a clue.

Am seconding Cattyles' comment: the science is now coming out to suggest that there IS protection for the person wearing the mask as well. I too read that in the last several days.

This disease has EVER CHANGING SCIENCE, it's the individual's responsibility to try & keep up w/ the science. If you value your life (or that of your family & loved ones), read to stay current!!

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dandyfopp

The VPOTUS.

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olychick

Well, he followed/belonged to the party of personal responsibility. If he chose to flaunt the recommendations of experts and refused to wear a mask, these are the logical consequences. It's unfortunate he put his family through this; hopefully they aren't infected, too.

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shead

We simply cannot know if a mask could have stopped him from getting Covid or not. It’s pretty arrogant to assume they are 100% effective because, like condoms, they aren’t. That’s not to stay there’s no statistical benefit to them but it’s still not 100%. People should still exercise caution and prudence in their safety measures. In the end, it’s their own decision to make and they have to live with the consequences. Being a person of faith, I doubt Mr. Cain viewed death as the ultimate punishment and something to be avoided at all costs, even subdued personal liberty. May he RIP.


Laughing at someone’s death is the lowest level of humanity.

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deegw

We do know if he stayed home and avoided contact with others he would not have gotten it.

Has anyone ever said that masks are 100% effective against being infected with covid?

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graywings123(7)

Laughing at someone’s death is the lowest level of humanity.


Oh, I don't know. Maybe taking children from their parents, keeping them in cages, and then deporting the parents ranks lower than laughing over a Darwinian death.

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dandyfopp

Yes. ^^^

I have no problem with an individual having to live with the consequences of their choices.. or having to die from them.

I do have a problem with a person with a platform broadcasting his ignorance at the risk of the health and lives of other people.

These risks are unnecessary they are stupid and they are dangerous.

No politician is worth this.

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patriciae_gw(07)

We do know he acted in a way that drastically increased his chance of getting Covid. There is no perhaps about that. Let that be a lesson to those who continue to think it wont affect them. That is the positive take away. Wouldnt Cain want his death to help others if possible? Help them make healthy decisions?

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Nana H

Condolences to his family and the families of all 150K who this virus has taken. Many needlessly.

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Annie Deighnaugh

In the end, it’s their own decision to make and they have to live with the consequences.

No, it's not. Their decision affects the lives of others. Some like Cain don't live with the consequences. Others, whom he may have infected, may not live either. They had no say so in his actions but will bear the full brunt of the result.

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queenmargo

I suppose the left think that no liberal has affected the lives of others. They think the mass crowds of protesters have not done anything but spread the peace. The only time they speak of poor decisions is for a Trump supporter.

I have been chastised for laughing when the left thinks it is inappropriate but I see no chastising of literally laughing at this mans death from the left. So, there you go, we see you.

RIP Herman Cain, your black life did matter.

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jmm1837

Wearing a mask is not a guarantee you won't die of Covid, any more than obeying the speed limits isn't a guarantee you won't be killed in a car crash. It does, however, substantally reduce the chance that you will die, and, equally important, that you will kill someone else. This should not be an individual choice.

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Annie Deighnaugh

You want someone to chastise someone?

Fine.

Don't laugh at Herman Cain's death.

Feel better now? Did that quell any anger and hatred spewed on the left on a regular basis?

No, I didn't think so.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I went back and read every post here and didn't read anyone laughing. Care to point out what I missed Margo?

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cattyles

Nobody said a mask offered 100% protection, either.

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soupgirl53

Me too. I didn't see anyone who indicated he/she was laughing at Herman Cain's death. Where is this coming from?

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blfenton

dadoes (sp?) has deleted his/her remark.

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dandyfopp

One person says something somewhere and it becomes THE LEFT.

Must distract from what was very obviously a preventable death, and another death to be lain at Donald Trumps door.

One of over 154,000.

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palisades_

The laughing post was removed, as it was considered in poor taste.

My condolences to his family. We are still at ground zero with no vaccines, no first line drug regimens. Take all precautions you can.

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Kathy

They think the mass crowds of protesters have not done anything but spread the peace.


Don’t confuse protestors with rioters. The rioters are doing their best to obliterate the BLM movement.

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sleeperblues(3-wisonsin)

Sad he had to die for a political agenda, but it's what he chose. What people are missing in the mask debate is that the large droplets that carry the virus will be stopped by the mask, even if it is a home made cloth mask. So if I protect you, you also protect me.

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Ziemia(6a)

Inaccurate - thus disinformation:

Right along - MOST of the protection is to others - not all.

IF I am among others, I wear a mask as I am more protected from them than I would be without one.

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Ziemia(6a)

We have DATA here in the NORTHEAST that the protests did NOT interfere with the trend in having fewer infected.

Claiming protests led to increased spreading is disinformation.... Unless facts don't matter.

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terezosa / terriks

Attending a rally with thousands of people with or without a mask was a stupid risk to take.


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terezosa / terriks

More data is showing the wearing a mask gives the wearer protection too.

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/07/14/covid-corona-face-masks-study/

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elvis

terezosa / terriks

Attending a rally with thousands of people with or without a mask was a stupid risk to take.

Well, I wouldn't have done it, but that's me. Sure, Cain could have caught the virus that night, but we'll never really know. Anyone who is getting a perverse sense of vindication about this might want to think about what this says about them as human beings.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Actually, that is what contact tracing is all about.....they can figure it out.

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kadefol

loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Remember, the masks we are now told to wear are not meant to protect you, they are meant to protect others. Unless they are N95 masks, you are not
protected.

So if we all wear masks, we all protect each other. Makes sense. As a side benefit, flu infections in areas with mask mandates are expected to be much lower this year.

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jmm1837

Anyone who thinks this shouldn't be used as an illustration of the price you can pay for choosing not to wear a mask, is missing an opportunity to educate his fellow citizens, and perhaps save a few lives. What indeed does that say about them as human beings?

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olychick

I'd think they'd do everything possible to stay alive to vote in November, instead of shrinking the base via virus.

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Toby

He tested positive nine days after the Tulsa rally. Maybe he didn't catch it there. Maybe he caught it on the plane ride home.

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dandyfopp

You would think with his numbers Donnie would be bending over backwards to keep them alive.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Was Cain ever known to wear a mask? If not then you know he got it while not wearing a mask but like JMM says why not use the opportunity to educate? Education is not perverse.

And thanks for the info about the laughing.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

How long does it take for COVID-19 symptoms to appear?

The respiratory symptoms of COVID-19 typically appear an average of 5-6 days after exposure, but may appear in as few as 2 days or as long as 14 days after exposure, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

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KarenS, NYC

I had only seen that 'laughter' from dadoes, whose handle I'd never seen before.

Thx Dandy abt VP Pence, is there some special event going on for which you say folks are lining up? What am I missing here?

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ubro(2a)

People should still exercise caution and prudence in their safety measures. In the end, it’s their own decision to make and they have to live with the consequences

For the 100th time, they are playing with other peoples lives and other people will have to live with the consequences.

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elvis

Well, ya can't say Pence's team didn't get the message out:

An announcement was made over the loud speaker asking people who were not wearing masks to do so before Pence took the stage.

https://kdkaradio.radio.com/articles/pence-unharmed-in-accident-before-law-and-order-speech

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lurker111

Rioters aka peaceful protesters have destroyed any chance we had at containing this virus. There was no reason to end the contact tracing and demographics. Oh wait...The left can't be blamed for the damaged they've done. Always need to blame someone else. Why would anyone complain about a small meeting when their own are rampaging in the streets?

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Ziemia(6a)

100% disinformation ^^^^^°

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Joaniepoanie

Wait a minute.....was Cain rioting?

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maddie260

Lurker, I think you delete your own. For example, there was a post by lurker one second ago accusing others of deleting his/her posts. I looked up- gone!

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lurker111

I'm not going to pretend to know where Cain got it. I'm not insane. I don't play make believe on the internet. Once the numbers started coming in, they canceled the tracing, and stopped taking racial information. There is only one reason to do that.

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elvis

I see physical distancing. I prefer a tad more apart, but that's me.

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shead

“For the 100th time, they are playing with other peoples lives and other people will have to live with the consequences.”

Did I say I agreed with his decision? No.

Did I say I was anti-mask? No.

Was I acknowledging that Mr. Cain had the personal right to choose whether he wore a mask or not? Yes.


So stop it with the condescension.

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jmm1837

"Was I acknowledging that Mr. Cain had the personal right to choose whether he wore a mask or not? Yes."

The issue is with your use of the phrase "personal right." People may have the "right" to take risks for themselves, but they do not have the "right" to impose those risks on other people. Mr. Cain and the like-minded anti-maskers impose those risks on everyone they encounter, including the medical teams that treat them. It is not a human right to deliberately or negligently endanger the lives of other people.

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maddie260

I knew exactly where I was; I was writing my post that appeared below your deleted.

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Ziemia(6a)

Yes, it was his right to make this stupid decision.

Dying of Covid-19 is a horrible way to die.

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terezosa / terriks

Do I have the personal right to smoke on a plane, in a hospital, theater or grocery store? No I don't, because it has been accepted that it is a public health threat. Not wearing a mask is also a public health threat.

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shead

Then I hope you don’t drive a car. Pray tell how Mr. Cain deliberately endangered the life of others. I don’t think that word applies in this situation. He didn’t DELIBERATELY catch Covid and he didn’t DELIBERATELY spread Covid, if he even did at all. Certainly no more so that you would DELIBERATELY drive your car down the road and have an intentional wreck that could result in harm or death to someone else.

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dadoes



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Toby

He DELIBERATELY chose not to wear a mask and to attend a rally where others weren't wearing masks so he DELIBERATELY chose to risk his health and others'.

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ronminsouthga

Must distract from what was very obviously a preventable death, and another death to be lain at Donald Trumps door.

One of over 154,000. Prove that Trump had anything with the deaths. Why do you look at democrat run cities like NY.

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studio10001

and CERTAIINLY no more than you would DELIBERATELY get cancer from smoking, and YET the comparison is still valid. Sorry- VALID. NOT WEARING A MASK IS LIKE SMOKING IN PUBLIC. IT PURPOSELY ENDANGERS EVERYONE IN YOUR VICINITY. GEE, CAPS ARE FUN!!!!

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shead

Taking risks does not equal deliberate intent or endangerment. That’s what jmm1837 said. Those are oxymorons.

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lurker111

NY spread it across the nation and they're proud of their stupid governor.

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jmm1837

shead - if I drive down the road, obeying all the traffic laws, I am not deliberately endangering anyone else. If I flout the traffic laws, speed, don't signal, tail gate or cut in to another lane, I most certainly am endangering myself and other people. There is no difference in choosing not to obey speed limits when there is a strong possibility of a crash, and choosing not to wear a mask when there is a high risk of contagion. It absolutely is negligent and heedless behavior. I'll say it again: human rights do not extend to impinging on the rights of others.

.

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shead

I want to see a show of hands for everyone here who NEVER speeds, eats, takes a phone call, texts, or ever gets distracted by their own thoughts while driving.

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Stan Areted

"Was I acknowledging that Mr. Cain had the personal right to choose whether he wore a mask or not? Yes."

The issue is with your use of the phrase "personal right." People may have the "right" to take risks for themselves, but they do not have the "right" to impose those risks on other people. Mr. Cain and the like-minded anti-maskers impose those risks on everyone they encounter, including the medical teams that treat them. It is not a human right to deliberately or negligently endanger the lives of other people.


YOUR idea of what constitutes a "human right" is totally inconsequential.

It means SQUAT.

This is the United States of America and we are not required to give up our rights based on the fears of others, or their political agendas.

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Annie Deighnaugh

shead, "Was I acknowledging that Mr. Cain had the personal right to choose whether he wore a mask or not? Yes."

Just curious, do you think you have a personal right to choose whether or not you go naked in public?

Because the reality is, our society would not let you go naked in public even though that presents far less of a risk of illness and fatality to others than not wearing a mask.

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jmm1837

That is not the point, Shead. People may do these things, but it isn't their "right" to do them. And if they do get into an accident, they will be charged with dangerous or negligent driving. Because that's what it is.

If someone decides not to wear a mask in a situation where the risk of transmitting infection is clear, he is making a deliberate choice to risk the lives of everyone around him, and is every bit as negligent as the decision to drive drunk or 20 mph over the speed limit.

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jmm1837

"This is the United States of America and we are not required to give up
our rights based on the fears of others, or their political agendas."

Ever heard of this, attributed (probably incorrectly) to Oliver Wendell Holmes?

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins." I say again, you do not have the right to deliberately and knowingly engage in behavior that puts others at risk. What about their rights?

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shead

There was no mask mandate in Tulsa at the time of the rally. He was free to choose if he wore one or not.

Again, a poor decision but he was FREE to choose.


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patriciae_gw(07)

Shead , and free to die but what about the people he exposed before he was diagnosed and put in the hospital. Are they also free to die because he was? He is dead by the way. That death would doubtless have been hard and painful. He was more than willing to spread that around him. Does he get to decide for them? I do not think so.

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dadoes

I do not drive faster than the speed limit, I do not eat in my car while driving, I do not handle my phone while in the car. Voice controlled system, Bluetooth to answer or [rarely] make calls, and it can voice-read texts [I never reply].

I routinely drive below the posted speed limit. The FM road from work to home has zones for 50, 40, intersection/stop light, 40, 50, 55, 60, 50, home. Not unusual I drive it at 35 or 40 or even 30 at night when there's no traffic ... having a hybrid car and can keep it in electric mode more of the time. Freeway route to the parents house for example is 75 MPH, I typically run it at 69 or 70 ... noticeably better gas mileage.

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vedabeeps

“ He DELIBERATELY chose not to wear a mask and to attend a rally where others weren't wearing masks so he DELIBERATELY chose to risk his health and others'.”


He did more than that, he used his platform to speak out against mask wearing.

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Toby

You sure can excuse a lot of self-centered, anti-society behavior by labeling it "personal responsibility." It's not responsibility at all. It's irresponsibility and it starts at the top with the most irresponsible president we've ever had--Trump.

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studio10001

Also not a rule breaker on the road, as I value the rights and lives of those around me.

Mr. Cain was not ignorant of his actions, or their potential consequences - his actions were deliberate. Whether he was FREE to do so is a a separate, and equally irresponsible facet of a growing problem.

We are required to give up our rights to ignorance all the time. I strongly suggest posters are living in their own separate Idaho if they think not.



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Kathy

Republican who are living in a bubble refusing to wear masks might find out it kills them.

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shead

I never said “personal responsibility”. I said “personal freedom.” In the absence of laws regarding mask wearing, Herman Cain had the personal freedom to not wear a mask at the Tulsa rally. He also had the freedom to speak his opinion about mask wearing. For the 1000th time, I’m NOT condoning his behavior nor do I agree with it. I’m merely observing the fact that he had the freedom to do so according to the law. Period. I’m not sure why that’s debatable.

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studio10001

Because you said more than that, but if you now wish to ignore the statements about deliberate actions, well and good.

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kadefol

As long as non-mask wearers would jeopardize only their own health and no one else's, I would not care one bit if they don't want to wear a mask. But their refusal jeopardizes others. And the common good trumps (no pun intended) individual rights, period.

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dandyfopp

No doubt Herman had the right, and now he is dead.

No one else should have to pay for his ignorance but when we are talking about a highly contagious virus that is unlikely. Someone else may die because of his decision.

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Stan Areted

shead:

I never said “personal responsibility”. I said “personal freedom.” In the absence of laws regarding mask wearing, Herman Cain had the personal freedom to not wear a mask at the Tulsa rally. He also had the freedom to speak his opinion about mask wearing. For the 1000th time, I’m NOT condoning his behavior nor do I agree with it. I’m merely observing the fact that he had the freedom to do so according to the law. Period. I’m not sure why that’s debatable.

It has been my experience, shead, that the liberal mind is quite often incapable of distinguishing the difference you just pointed out, or at the least, admitting it.

Liberals have long depended on emotion instead of intellect and since the ends always justifies the means, cannot appreciate not agreeing with a concept, but fully supporting the right of someone else to practice it.

It's easy for an objective, independent mind, not so much for angry, emotional people that want their way.

I wouldn't waste my time.



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Stan Areted

jmm1837:

"This is the United States of America and we are not required to give up
our rights based on the fears of others, or their political agendas."

Ever heard of this, attributed (probably incorrectly) to Oliver Wendell Holmes?

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins." I say again, you do not have the right to deliberately and knowingly engage in behavior that puts others at risk. What about their rights?


I darned sure do, under certain circumstances.

There are instances where people can be arrested, but they still have the right to do some things, such as sock someone in the nose.

Herman Cain had every right not to wear a mask; if you don't like it, stay away from him and others. It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. YOU HAVE NO POWER TO MAKE US.

Now that Fauci has decided it's okay to have internet sex but we now need goggles and face shields (which Birx says we can decorate) to go with our masks (although he doesn't wear one himself, sitting right next to others at the ball park) are you going to say we don't have the right not to wear a face shield or goggles now?

Fauci has no elected position, and his "advice" is now a laughing stock among prudent people. We are ON OUR OWN.

And we certainly aren't listening to arm chair quarterbacks that aren't part of our electorate. Those that do, are welcome to seek the advice of those armchair quarterbacks all the want. It means they can't think for themselves.

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queenmargo

Now that Fauci has decided it's okay to have internet sex but we now need goggles and face shields (which Birx says we can decorate) to go with our masks (although he doesn't wear one himself, sitting right next to others at the ball park) are you going to say we don't have the right not to wear a face shield or goggles now?

Look at the man who wants to make the rules.... NO social distancing, no mask, no googles..........such a hypocrite.

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Marigold

Queenmargo, according to snopes, both people are in his bubble, and they are well away from anyone else "...The woman on Fauci’s left is his wife, Christine Grady, and the man on
Fauci’s right is a “close friend” of the NIAID director. This man was
also described in a photograph from USA Today as one of Fauci’s “guests”
at the event. In other words, the two other people in this photograph
appear to be part of Fauci’s inner circle, which may reduce the need for
social distancing in this instance..."
Fauci himself said "The other person is a very close friend of mine. John, I think this is
sort of mischievous with this thing going around. I had my mask around
my chin, I had taken it down. I was totally dehydrated and I was
drinking water trying to rehydrate myself. And by the way, I was
negative Covid literally the day before."

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dirtygert(5-NY)

"YOU HAVE NO POWER TO MAKE US." Nobody wants to have to "MAKE" anyone wear a mask. Guess it's too much to expect that others would WANT to wear a mask (of their own free will) in an attempt to protect their fellow humans. Another benefit: we could perhaps stop the pandemic --- which would be a godsend for us all.

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queenmargo

Marigold- then why do the other two from his "inner circle" have their masks on? Fauci does not look dehydrated or have a bottle of water in his hands.

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deegw

There is a huge difference between refusing to wear a mask and occasionally moving your mask to catch your breath, eat, speak or when you are socially distant.

Everyone knows that.

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Marigold

I suppose he lowered the mask first, but if they are both in his bubble, no matter anyway.

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ImWithJoe

i feel sorry for people who unsuccessfully try to walk across a 12 lane highway blindfolded and on a dare, too. still dead after a stupid choice



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Joaniepoanie

The bottle of water is on his lap, probably just got done taking a drink....sheesh! All three have a mask, unlike the trumpers waiting in line to see Pence.

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patriciae_gw(07)

The water bottle is under his left elbow.

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dandyfopp

Ya'll... 🤪


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jmm1837

Well, I certainly see why the US is in such trouble. :-(

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studio10001

'we are not required to give up
our rights based on the fears of others, or their political agendas.'

Love it - let's save this one for the next round of government attacks on peaceful citizens.

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Iris GW

Huh? This is war?

Author, former reality show star and convicted felon Angela Stanton-King announced Friday that she will run for Congress as a Republican against longtime Georgia Democratic U.S. Rep. John Lewis.

Stanton-King was recently pardoned by President Donald Trump after her 2004 conviction on federal conspiracy charges for her role in a car theft ring. She spent more than two years in prison.

Oh, I get it.

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ubro(2a)

Herman Cain had every right not to wear a mask; if you don't like it, stay away from him and others. It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. YOU HAVE NO POWER TO MAKE US.

Sounds like right out of the mouth of a teenager, "you can't make me". No we cannot make him but once again we have to remind a RWer that Cain comes into contact with people who cannot choose to stay away from him.

Apparently Cain and those pushing against mask wearing don't have Humility, Kindness or a sense of Community, because it is all about them.


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shead

“It's easy for an objective, independing mind, not so much for angry, emotional people that want their way.

I wouldn't waste my time.”

Yea, I’m done with that. The whole deliberate and intentional thing was falling on deaf ears. Nuances of sentence structure and precision of language and definitions seem to be a lost skill set.


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Stan Areted

You are right about that, shead.

It is a skill set I'm not convinced some are ever capable of possessing.

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studio10001

Banner day - there are two things we agree on. Thanks for helping make that point w your posts.

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palisades_

terezosa / terriks

Attending a rally with thousands of people with or without a mask was a stupid risk to take.

I agree! Other than his non mask preference, his chance of becoming infected with covid was very high in such rally, regardless of him wearing or not wearing a mask. The same goes for protestors/rioters, anti-shutdown protesters - masks or no masks, chances are high for passing the virus along to the next crying/yelling persons nearby. Wearing masks without practicing social distancing is not going to reduce the risk.

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heri_cles

Cain lacked personal responsibility by refusing to wear a mask. He endangered himself and others. Nothing else to discuss here. Anyway someone just pointed out to me that 999 upside down is 666. Whaddya think? Hmmmm...

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batyabeth

I'm still not sure what the "political agenda" is regarding masks.

I'm off to put my mask on and do some shopping, using alcohol hand wash every time I leave a place of business, and with an extra pair of gloves, as always.


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George Davis

I don't feel anything for him. I saw that last picture from that convention. Him smiling there with his buddies all segregated from the "others". Such a self righteous smirk of look where I'm at. Well everybody knew where you were and now look where your at. You can't pity the stupid. There is a movie series called "Jack Assess". You can watch hours and hours of stupid people doing stupid things. Some even get the chance to say " that was stupid". I wonder if he got the chance.

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clearwaters

So many platitudes. Let me count the ways.

Non so blind as those who will not see

You reap what you sew

Karma's a b!t*h

I could go on for days, but I'll leave some so you can have an equal opportunity

That's the way a democracy works



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Annie Deighnaugh

Being in a state that has developed a culture of masking and has successfully squelched the spread of the disease, one of the key benefits has been that our hospitals and medical facilities are not overwhelmed, so if we get sick with covid or any other serious medical condition, they have room and resources to treat us.

They have opened up many functions and facilities in the state so our lives are a lot more normal than they were during the worst of the disease and the tightest shutdown. I can go food shopping and not be as fearful of catching the disease as our incidence is so low now. I can get tested for free should I have any symptoms and learn whether or not I have the disease. And with the re-opening, more people are able to get back to work.

And that's not to mention how many deaths we are avoiding by our simple precautions.

We were hit hard, did what we had to, and are now coming out the other side. I so wish the other states learned the lesson from what we went through and avoided this mess...

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Toby

So the Republican hoax was that the virus and shut down was a Democratic hoax. One of those hoaxes killed Cain.

It's such a relief to learn that Stan's not going to waste his time with angry, emotional, non-intellectual people anymore. Maybe with all those hours he's just freed up by not participating here, he can find a cure for the virus.

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docmom_gw(5)

Palisades,

” masks or no masks, chances are high for passing the virus along to the next crying/yelling persons nearby. Wearing masks without practicing social distancing is not going to reduce the risk.”

WRONG! I am a physician. Wearing a mask absolutely decreases risk, no matter what the distance. The combination of BOTH masks AND social distancing is the best we can do. You make it sound like masks don’t matter, if there are crowds. That is incorrect. Certainly, nothing protects 100%, except staying home, but we should do the best we can.

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Stan Areted

Toby:

It's such a relief to learn that Stan's not going to waste his time with angry, emotional, non-intellectual people anymore. Maybe with all those hours he's just freed up by not participating here, he can find a cure for the virus.

I suggest you go back and read my post again, Toby, this time carefully and perhaps without a retort already in mind, for accuracy's sake?

My advice of "I wouldn't waste my time" was to shead's frustration with posters who, by their responses, were bereft of understanding the rather elementary point of appreciating and recognizing the rights of someone (Mr. Herman Cain) of having the PERSONAL FREEDOM (which shead AGAIN had to explain) to not wear a mask and yet not agree with not wearing a mask. I stand with shead on that point.

My advice of "I wouldn't waste my time" was to shead to not waste time trying to explain that elementary point to those that argued with shead.

I said nothing about not wasting my time with angry, emotional, non-intellectual people anymore. I have found that spending limited amounts of time--a few minutes here or there during the day and early evening, at the forum and listening to the views of all sorts of people, has given me a unique and very important education about what kind of people comprise our society, and how that has changed, particularly over the last twelve years or so. I wouldn't have believed the hate, the arrogance, the interjection of other countries into our political scene on such a very personal, vitriolic basis, I wouldn't have believed that people that aren't even citizens here would aggressively taunt and dismiss citizens of the U.S. A. for sharing their beliefs and supporting a particular candidate.

Maybe if people weren't so busy wanting to control who in this country wears a mask or not and when, and castigating citizens entitled to support the candidate of their choice, THEY could find a cure for the virus.

Frankly, I am not so sure a cure is in order. Just yet.

You may have to wait a bit if you're waiting on me. In the meantime, I'm here to understand and expose what many people believe is the contribution to the ruin of the United States of America.

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Toby

I can't believe the hate and arrogance of some posters either.

So only citizens of the U.S. will be allowed to criticize Biden if he's elected? You will admonish our Canadian and Australian members should they criticize President Biden?

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bry911

Why on earth would anyone laugh at someone's death?

I think the entire situation is funny, tragic, pathetic, and infuriating. I don't understand why so many people are making masks the hill they want to die on, quite literally, and I deplore anyone making it political. Covid 19 has cost us far more than a trillion dollars in GDP. Given the average treatment costs and the damage to the GDP wearing a mask would still be cheap insurance if there was only a 1 in 1,000 chance of it working. Given that, even the most pessimistic should be forming patrol groups to shame the one or two individuals who forgot their mask.

So personally, I think Herman Cain's death was likely avoidable, and I think it is tragic and sad that someone died who didn't have to. Just like all the other people who died unnecessarily to a virus because of senseless political posturing. However, I also think there is an ironic humor to this particular Leopards Eating Your Face party. So with all due respect, I am dealing with this ridiculous crisis with anger and laughter. Sometimes I am despondent and other times I see a glimmer of hope.

I find myself wishing that all the people who refuse to wear masks would just die and then I feel myself appalled that thought even crossed my mind. So if you will try to forgive my occasional irreverence at this situation and give me a moment I will try to find a coping mechanism that you find more appropriate.

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docmom_gw(5)

Stan,

“I have found that spending limited amounts of time--a few minutes here or there during the day and early evening, at the forum and listening to the views of all sorts of people, has given me a unique and very important education about what kind of people comprise our society, and how that has changed, particularly over the last twelve years or so.”


Please don’t use this forum to assess the whole of society. I think you will get a very skewed impression of who makes it up. Certainly, you can find both good and bad behaviors and attitudes here, but I think this kind of platform attracts those who want an anonymous space to make comments they wouldn’t otherwise make.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Thanks bry...never heard of leopard's eating your face party...love it!

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Toby

Bry, if it helps, tell yourself that those who won't wear a mask are doing so out of a patriotic duty to achieve herd immunity. A herd of leopards.

I just read on Politico that an administration assistant who services all the Congressional offices said that virtually all Democrats are masked but less than 50% of Republicans are masked. They are still ridiculing those who mask.

Ohio published their COVID map today and cases are falling in the cities while rising in rural areas. They attribute it to mask-wearing in the cities and mask avoidance in rural areas.

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Stan Areted

I agree with you, docmom, but I will confess that it has been quite informative to realize how many people do not believe in the sanctity of our Constitution, how many people are quick to label others as racist and selfish if they do not agree with them exactly how to address issues in this country, how many people believe that we should have open borders and pay for the living expenses, medical expenses, and subsidize any and every person that decides they want to come here to live, among other things.

It has been quite informative, in a good way, to realize how many from other countries are constantly reading about and thinking about our great country.

Also, in a not so good way. It makes me wonder quite frankly, if they believe their own countries have no problems, or if there's just not much interesting going on, or there is some envy in play, or perhaps admiration. So it's good to realize that there are many people not only interested, but attempting to involve themselves in our political and constitutional process and even would hope to influence it. That is quite interesting to me on a number of levels. I doubt it is any conspiracy by countries, but more an individual personality trait.

I do not judge everyone with a broad brush by any means, but reading here gives us all an idea--lurkers, too, as I was--that there are people very, very different from us.

My hopes are that some of those lurkers realize that there are those of us that do not think we've done everything right by a long shot, but that the United States of America is filled with good, decent, hard working, kind, charitable and imaginative people that step up and support not only one another but other countries with the sacrifice of help, sharing our resources of people, money--taxpayer money and charitable donations in addition--and even the blood and lives of our own citizens.

We are an independent people by nature, or have been in the past, and that is one reason we have been so successful.

Not all of us are blind globalists, intent on removing freedoms to worship and make our own decisions, and fail or succeed on our own merits under our contitutional rights. Other people need to understand that, too.


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bry911

how many people do not believe in the sanctity of our Constitution

This is where I quit reading. The Constitution is a document on how to run our government, it is not holy, saintly, or sacred. Neither is it inviolable.

The Constitution is special because of the time when it was adopted. It is no more special than any other Constitution that followed it and although the framers were visionary, they created an imperfect document and an imperfect system of government. We should note that even the U.S. does not encourage a similar system when asked to help other countries establish Democracies. We were instrumental in forming the Iraq government and the George W. Bush administration endorsed a parliamentary system.

That reverence you feel for the Constitution is really just indoctrination.

----

We return now to our regularly scheduled program...

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

I find myself wishing that all the people who refuse to wear masks would just die and then I feel myself appalled that thought even crossed my mind.

Bry, it's their own self inflicted death wish, not really yours.

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elvis

I really liked those last 2 posts of yours, Stan. Well said, thank you.

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HU-274840647

Incidentally Trump has spoken on this issue to clarify any misunderstanding, for which he is well known, Trump says that it was the jina virus that killed Cain.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Sorry, stan, but the contradictions in your post are glaring to me...eg.

this: I do not judge everyone with a broad brush by any means...

and this: realize how many people do not believe in the sanctity of our Constitution, how many people are quick to label others as racist and selfish if they do not agree with them exactly how to address issues in this country...

do not sync.

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shead

Truly, I don't think the wearing a mask or NOT was the hill that Herman Cain wished to die on. The "hill" that he was standing on was the hill of his own personal rights and freedoms and those of the rest of Americans. As DH rightly noted at dinner last night, some people don't follow their ideology to its logical end. Herman Cain and many of the others that aren't wearing masks are simply trying to point out that being forced to wear a mask violates their personal freedoms. Is it a big deal to wear a mask? No, I don't think it is, but, objectively where does this end? When a vaccine is found, should the government then create laws to force everyone to receive it in the name of "public health"? My answer is NO and if this happens, *I* will not go down without a fight and that fight will be bloody. Should we, as humans, sometimes acquiesce our personal liberties for the greater good? Yes, sometimes we should, but again, where do we draw the line?

In 1980, China enacted the "one child policy" because they were having a "public health crisis" of overpopulation. Most of the Western world was/is appalled by that policy and my child suffered the first 8.5 years of his life because of that policy. In the name of "public health", women were forced into abortions, 2nd children and/or children with special needs and baby girls, especially, were ripped from their parents and/or abandoned in the streets. Families were fined heavily to enforce this policy. Some people were forcibly sterilized. It was a heinous policy, to say the least, but it was done in the name of public health.

So how does being forced to wear masks and a "one child policy" relate? Both are/were being touted as necessary for public health. Personal freedoms are never snatched overnight: they simply erode over time, little by little. THAT is what Herman Cain and all the others are upset about and what they envision happening over time to this country. Little by little, day by day, things get justified and ultimately freedoms are lost. In the moment, yes, they might be necessary but the long-term consequences and losses might far outweigh the momentary gains. Hindsight is always 20/20. So while you want to wag your self-righteous finger at people like Herman Cain and others fighting to ward off government overreach, remember that this fight is about something much bigger than wearing masks. It's about upholding certain principles and about the "grand scheme of things" TO THEM.

Now, for those that want to argue with this post, realize that, for the 1001st time, I'm NOT condoning not wearing a mask. I'm not encouraging others to not wear a mask. I'm not making any statement about the necessity of wearing masks. I'm simply and objectively pointing out that people like Herman Cain were making a stand against what they view as government overreach and a path down a slippery slope. I'm not going to respond to condescending and emotion-filled accusations about my intentions in this post or misinterpretations of this post. The point of my post is to foster conversations that leave out the emotions, accusations, judgments, etc. regarding where the line gets drawn.

If mask wearing should be mandatory, should vaccinations to this virus be mandatory? Why or why not?

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cecily 7A

Is there a direct Cain quote that explains why he didn't mask or are you putting words into the mouth of a dead man?

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queenmargo

shead- thanks for your great post. Some of us see that or at least those with an open mind.

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elvis

Shead, well said. Often I champion someone's right to "speak". This does not mean that I agree with what they actually "say", nor does it mean that I'm playing devil's advocate, although sometimes that is the case.

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bry911

The "hill" that he was standing on was the hill of his own personal rights and freedoms and those of the rest of Americans. As DH rightly noted at dinner last night, some people don't follow their ideology to its logical end. Herman Cain and many of the others that aren't wearing masks are simply trying to point out that being forced to wear a mask violates their personal freedoms.

This is ridiculous on its face. There is no protection of personal freedom at the expense of others. It is not a valid argument and never has been. Are pedophiles just exercising their personal freedom when they view child pornography? No! Because as a society we realize that somewhere out there a child is being exploited and society's need to protect those kids outweighs your right to pursue your desire!

This is not really different. There is no personal freedom issue here. Society's need to protect other individuals clearly outweighs your right to avoid an incredibly minor inconvenience in this, just as it does in so many other things. Many drugs are illegal, public exposure is typically illegal, driving without a license is typically illegal, etc.

EVERY SINGLE LAW IS A SACRIFICE OF PERSONAL FREEDOM FOR THE PROTECTION OF OTHERS. EVERY ONE! So the personal rights and freedoms argument is ridiculous on its face and always has been. I will accept that as a valid opinion when you advocate opening up the prisons and letting every person go free while advocating the dismantling of the entire justice system. Until then it is just a convenient and absolutely ridiculous and hypocritical excuse for political posturing.

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queenmargo

This is the huge gap between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives are open to hear both sides where as the liberals think their way is the only way.

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Stan Areted

Bry:

That reverence you feel for the Constitution is really just indoctrination.

You know squat about what I feel, "BRY."

Indoctrination is the hate liberals show for this country.

Must be a lot of self loathers our there to spread it around so much, they're full.

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queenmargo

Back to Herman Cain. I will miss his voice. I enjoyed listening to him;)

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nickel_kg(6)

Should I exercise my right to drive on the left hand side of the road? Stop at green lights, go at red lights? Gosh let me think ... some of my actions impact the lives of others .... what to do, what to do....

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

So how does being forced to wear masks and a "one child policy" relate? Both are/were being touted as necessary for public health.

You would have HATED WWII in England.

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bry911

That reverence you feel for the Constitution is really just indoctrination.

You know squat about what I feel, "BRY."

WHAT? Either you don't know the meaning of the words you are using or you have reverence for the constitution. I apologize for assuming you were not ignorant on the meaning of the words you used.

Let me correct my earlier statement then as such.

That reverence you expressed for the Constitution is really just indoctrination or a lack of understanding of what the word sanctity means. You pick there big guy...

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shead

So, bry911, would you agree with China's "one child policy" and the governmental actions that commenced to enforce that policy?

Do you support forced vaccinations?

I'm not sure why you kept using "your" and "you" in your post when I'm clearly playing devil's advocate. I'm not advocating for any of the things you mention such as child pornography, etc. so why are YOU making your reply as a personal and aggressive attack on me when I asked a simple objective question? I would not argue with any of the examples you gave because I wholeheartedly agree that child pornography should be stopped, drug usage eliminated, and criminals locked away for the public good. But there are lesser things that are more debatable and more nuanced.

So where does the line get drawn?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Conservatives are open to hear both sides where as the liberals think their way is the only way.

Judging by what I experience here, conservatives only listen to the other side to look for ammo with which to mock and denigrate the liberals.

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HU-274840647

Brilliant rebuttal Bryan, cool and factual

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shead

"You would have HATED WWII in England."


Yes, I probably would have. Are you condoning it?

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Toby

Is it a big deal to wear a mask? No, I don't think it is, but,
objectively where does this end? When a vaccine is found, should the
government then create laws to force everyone to receive it in the name
of "public health"?

This is the slippery slope argument. (Ah, reading further I see it's what you yourself call it.) Let's not give them an inch for the common good because they'll take a mile. It points to a general distrust about our government, and while that seems rational to you, it doesn't to me. It's the same argument used to resist sane gun legislation. If assault weapons are banned, they'll come after your hunting rifles next!

The point of my post is to foster conversations that leave out the emotions, accusations, judgments, etc. regarding where the line gets drawn.

I find your slippery slope argument to be based 100% on emotion, not logic. That emotion is fear and paranoia, the most irrational of emotions.

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elvis

I find your slippery slope argument to be based 100% on emotion, not logic. That emotion is fear and paranoia, the most irrational of emotions.

I doubt anyone here will hold that against you. Funny!

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shead

@Toby, but when you have a child whose first 8.5 years WERE A DIRECT RESULT OF a government perpetuating all kinds of horrors onto its own citizens "in the name of public health" and "for the greater good", yes, you do become a little distrustful. It also causes one to not live in a "bubble" of believing that the government's intentions are always good nor are they always right. That's not paranoia. Paranoia is an irrational fear not based on actual realized events. It's healthy to be a little distrustful and cautious. Otherwise, why lock our doors at night, park in well-lit areas after dark, etc.?

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Toby

Forced vaccinations by our elected government cannot be compared to Communist China's one child policy. That's more than a "little" healthy distrust of government.

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Stan Areted

annie deighnaugh:

Sorry, stan, but the contradictions in your post are glaring to me...eg.

this: I do not judge everyone with a broad brush by any means...

and this: realize how many people do not believe in the sanctity of our Constitution, how many people are quick to label others as racist and selfish if they do not agree with them exactly how to address issues in this country...

do not sync.


What's glaring is you do not make a point.

What's it with people not reading?

"I do not judge EVERYONE with a broad brush by any means."


"how MANY people ....."


The fact that you do not seem to be able to distinguish the obvious difference between "EVERYONE" and "MANY" is disconcerting at the least, but quite explanatory about how a liberal mind operates.


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bry911

So where does the line get drawn?

This is called the slippery slope fallacy or an argument version of Sorites paradox. It is not valid and never has been.

It is not valid because this loss of personal freedom is finite and you haven't shown how it will lead to other losses of personal freedom. You just pretend that it will. However, if that pretense is valid for wearing masks, then why is it not valid for child pornography?

There is no slippery slope, this limit to personal freedom doesn't lead to anything other than wearing a mask and saving other people. Each time we abridge personal freedom we should weigh the harm to individuals versus the good to society. Period. Laws that require grown men to not expose themselves to children are not the first step to a society where all must wear uniforms issued by the government. It is just saying cover your twig and berries.

The personal freedom argument is not valid because it ignores the fact that we accept restrictions to personal freedom. Therefore, the only acceptable argument against masks is that they do more harm to individuals than they do good for society. Which, again, is a ridiculous opinion.

BTW. I used you and your because you presented the argument I was responding to. I didn't think "thou" was really called for.

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shead

"Forced vaccinations by our elected government cannot be compared to Communist China's one child policy."

_________________

So, are you saying you agree with forced vaccinations?


It's curious to me that no one has answered this question yet.

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Stan Areted

bry911:


That reverence you expressed for the Constitution is really just indoctrination or a lack of understanding of what the word sanctity means. You pick there big guy...


No need to "pick" from YOUR opinions, big gal....

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shead

So, @bry911, do you support and agree with forced vaccinations? Why or why not?

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bry911

So, @bry911, do you support and agree with forced vaccinations? Why or why not?

This is a red herring and of no relevance here other than in your mind. It is logical fallacy.

Why does wearing a mask equal forcing vaccinations? What do these two things have in common? This has nothing to do with masks no matter how connected they are in your mind. It is just a cognitive bias, your attempt to rationalize this.

To defeat mask wearing you must show that wearing masks has some detrimental effect, that question is outside whether or not vaccines have some detrimental effect.

---

Here is the problem... If I say yes, then that means I feel the good done outweighs the possible harm. If I say no, then that means I unconvinced the good done outweighs the possible harm. However, that is predicated on the good and harm of vaccinations not on masks and it is not valid in a discussion about masks.

For example, suppose my religion requires human sacrifice monthly, denying me that freedom doesn't mean that other religious practices such as communion are also at jeopardy. Those are different things and just because they are both religious doesn't mean they are both equally at risk. Because in reality, there isn't a slippery slope.

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Toby

Our government is not going to force medical procedures on anyone. We don't even need 100% compliance to combat the virus.

Thanks for explaining the slippery slope fallacy, bry. I'm going to read more about it, and I hope shead will too.

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shead

No, @bry911, only you are equating the two. I'm not trying to defeat mask wearing. My post clearly stated I supported mask wearing. I just don't support government mandated mask wearing.

Separately, I asked where the line should be drawn. Your accusation of "red herring" is simply an attempt to avoid answering the question.

IF a vaccine proves viable in stopping Covid-19, should all Americans be forced to get the vaccine? It's a valid question that surely, in your mind, you know where you'd stand on that issue.

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queenmargo

The extreme progressive left like to hold their true stand close to the vest for fear of being outed to soon. They like to take baby steps so one day you wake up and are wearing a smock out in the field sowing your bag of beans and saying to yourself, "How did this happen"?

Meanwhile, the megaphone of music is playing in the background.......with the song "It's for your own good".

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shead

"Thanks for explaining the slippery slope fallacy, bry. I'm going to read more about it, and I hope shead will too."

I did and here is what I found:

Not all slippery slope arguments are fallacious. Many are, but some aren't. It all depends on the strength of the original claim and the evidence to support the original claim.

Therefore, it's erroneous to write off every slippery slope argument as fallacy because many aren't. One has to critically analyze the original claim being made to determine the strength of the argument and the probability of the result. Claiming "slippery slope" every time one is mentioned is just a way to avoid actually answering the question.

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bry911

Separately, I asked where the line should be drawn. Your accusation of "red herring" is simply an attempt to avoid answering the question.

It was not an accusation, just a statement. I didn't accuse you of anything I simply noted that your failure to connect this to the question at hand makes it irrelevant.

IF a vaccine proves viable in stopping Covid-19, should all Americans be forced to get the vaccine? It's a valid question that surely, in your mind, you know where you'd stand on that issue.

Despite your assertion otherwise I don't have any idea where I stand on this issue. We don't have a vaccine so where do I stand on an imaginary vaccine with imaginary side effects released into an infection and mortality rate that I have no idea of? I stand firmly in the corner of waiting for the facts to make up my mind.

However, I will say this... The Smallpox vaccine was invented at the end of the 18th century, and yet 300 million people died from smallpox in the 20th century alone. So were we having this discussion at any point between 1820 and 1977 about the Smallpox vaccine then my unequivocal answer to you would be... yes.

Again, because given those actual facts in that actual situation the good would outweigh the harm.

----

So now your turn... Do you believe that a person infected with Covid 19 should have the freedom to cough on people in order to intentionally spread the virus?

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queenmargo

Some people will not be vaccinated due to their religious beliefs. This should be a personal choice.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

The old slippery slope BS was running high during back when some cities wanted to ban Saturday Night Specials, unfortunately the slope was even more slippery on the other side of that hill. Today we're armed to the teeth with major fire power.

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bry911

Not all slippery slope arguments are fallacious. Many are, but some aren't. It all depends on the strength of the original claim and the evidence to support the original claim.

I didn't write off every slippery slope argument. I wrote off yours. You have to make the connection to avoid the fallacy. You have to make it. You have failed to make it, therefore, it was fallacious.

I very specifically asked how this leads to that. You haven't connected the two.

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Stan Areted

shead:

No, @bry911, only you are equating the two. I'm not trying to defeat mask wearing. My post clearly stated I supported mask wearing. I just don't support government mandated mask wearing.


How many times can you say it, right?

It's not a difficult concept.

We will never know if obtuseness is the obstruction, a desire to play games, or the Koolaid is too strong.

In event event, it is indeed a waste of time, as evidenced, to make a simple statement, explain it in the most elementary of terms, the words and explanation ignored, and then be argued with about what you said and meant! LOL!

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Stan Areted

Toby:

Our government is not going to force medical procedures on anyone.


What do you mean "not going to?"

What has changed?

It's been done by OUR GOVERNMENT to thousands and thousands and thousands.

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bry911

How many times can you say it, right?

It's not a difficult concept.

We are not having a discussion on anyone's support of mask wearing, so an admission that you support it is not relevant. We are having a discussion on the abridgment of freedoms in protection of public safety. Specifically on whether or not you should be FORCED to wear a mask.

You can wear a mask every day and encourage other people to wear a mask every day and still this would be a discussion about your feeling that people "have the right" to refuse to wear a mask.

So you are right, it is not a difficult concept but apparently some people struggle with even the simple concepts when put forth by people they generally don't agree with.

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queenmargo

Now will you answer my question bry?

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palisades_

docmom_gw(5)

3 hours ago

Palisades,

” masks or no masks, chances are high for passing the virus along to the next crying/yelling persons nearby. Wearing masks without practicing social distancing is not going to reduce the risk.”

WRONG! I am a physician. Wearing a mask absolutely decreases risk, no matter what the distance. The combination of BOTH masks AND social distancing is the best we can do. You make it sound like masks don’t matter, if there are crowds. That is incorrect. Certainly, nothing protects 100%, except staying home, but we should do the best we can

There is nothing wrong with what you quoted because I spoke in the context of being in a big rally where people are yelling right next to one another. It’s just common sense that the risks are high in that setting, even with masks. It’s important to read for comprehension for the context being presented, especially for people who practice medicines.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Debating over wearing masks is so dang strange, it's not a hard sacrifice, it's a pretty easy thing to do, like wearing glasses. Probably the simplest of civic duties that any American can perform.

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queenmargo

Bry- do you think all men with AIDS should have their privates removed?

Is this another slippery slope bry?

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bry911

Bry- do you think all men with AIDS should have their privates removed?

Again, can you connect this to our current debate? I will say this again for those who missed it the first time.

All laws abridge personal freedom. All of them. Every single law that exists limits your right to do something that you may want to. From murder, to burglary, to speeding, etc. They all limit your personal freedoms. They do so in order to protect other people.

Arguments presented as if we can't do X because of my personal freedom ignore that there are currently more than 23,000 pages of Federal laws alone that do just that. If you want we could go through each page and each law individually and I can give you my opinion on whether I support that abridgment or oppose it. Then we can start on state laws and maybe then get to administrative laws (boy do I have some things to say about zoning laws). After that we could maybe get into how I feel about laws that don't exist such as forced genital mutilation.

We could spend years and years doing that, but none of that has anything to do with requiring masks. Nothing.

----

As for your question specifically... Why do you want to mutilate the genitals of men? Is there some benefit that you see from doing so? However, I find I generally don't support any genital mutilation, but I am intrigued to understand how you think the only solution to spread of the AIDS virus is to remove reproductive organs of men (I assume women are OK).

ETA: I believe many states have laws that require a person who is HIV positive and aware of it inform their sexual partners of their condition, whether or not they are men or women. So do you have information that methods other than mutilation are not sufficient?

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queenmargo

but bry could you humor me and answer my question?

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Yes, why genital mutilation, QM? Seems rather gratuitously nasty, not to mention grotesque. Laws already criminalize spreading AIDS, including specific laws in 34 states.

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HU-274840647

So tell me is Herman Cain stil dead?

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queenmargo

Yes, why genital mutilation, QM? Seems rather gratuitously nasty, not to mention grotesque.

Got your attention, lol

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Toby

Herman Cain and many of the others that aren't wearing masks are simply trying to point out that being forced to wear a mask violates their personal freedoms. Is it a big deal to wear a mask? No, I don't think it is, but, objectively where does this end? When a vaccine is found, should the government then create laws to force everyone to receive it in the name of "public health"?

Do we have forced masking? "Masks required" is not as absolute as "forced masking". Maybe that's where you made too big of a leap to forced vaccinations.

Do you believe that public schools should require proof of vaccination against childhood diseases for children to be enrolled?

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shead

"So now your turn... Do you believe that a person infected with Covid 19 should have the freedom to cough on people in order to intentionally spread the virus?"

________________

Absolutely not. No more so than I believe it's okay for a child in a classroom to bring a peanut butter sandwich for lunch and then proceed to sit beside my peanut-allergic child and then try to breathe in her face tauntingly. It's happened, btw.

There's a world of difference between the intentional breathing in someone's face by a Covid-positive person in order to try to intentionally bring about harm to the person versus intentionally not wearing a mask to a rally where one has a small statistical probability of actually catching the virus and thus inadvertently passing it onto others.

One has malicious intent and the other just stupid/faulty reasoning.

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shead

Do you believe that public schools should require proof of vaccination against childhood diseases for children to be enrolled?

In most states, one can opt of these vaccinations based on religious beliefs. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, though, but I am becoming more and more cautious about which vaccines I'll allow my minor children to receive especially after having an auto-immune disease. If I had to do it over again, I would have been more selective about the time table in which they did receive their early childhood vaccines.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Bry is making a very good argument for government. I as always am going to point out again what government is. It is US. We the People. We have a tendency apparently for gathering in groups and because we do we make rules for managing the gathered. Cows do this too and Horses and chickens and so on so we aren't original in this. Because we can we write them down. Obviously it is not a sacred process since other herders do it though they cant write. We have people here who will always talk about "the government" forcing things on them as if Space Aliens are making the rules but no, that would be US. For our mutual protection and comfort we gather. So we dont eat each others faces we make rules. We ought to be able to make a rule that makes you wear a mask in public if we can make a rule that you have to wear pants in public. You do have to wear pants in public. If you dont think so try not wearing pants in public. If you think we ought not be able to tell people they must wear pants in public now is the time to say so and why. I suggest you pass that on to your duly elected representative.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

"You would have HATED WWII in England."

Yes, I probably would have. Are you condoning it?

The point is that people had to make sacrifices for the common good. We should be able to handle that too.

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bry911

One has malicious intent and the other just stupid/faulty reasoning.

Great, so is that your line for abridgment? Should we then allow any behavior so long as it has no malicious intent and is just stupid/faulty reasoning?

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shead

"Should we then allow any behavior so long as it has no malicious intent and is just stupid/faulty reasoning?"

Well, I don't think *we* have any authority to disallow it if there are no laws established that criminalize it. We may not like it and we may disagree with it, but unless you're suggesting vigilante justice, people are free to continue to make stupid decisions about things that aren't criminal behavior.

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Toby

Shead, opting out of childhhood vaccines for an ideological reason is different than opting out for health reasons. In the case of Herman Cain, he opted out for ideological reasons. With most of the public supporting mask-wearing, I believe that anyone who opts out for ideological reasons is taking an extremist position. I think we could call Donald Trump an extremist. However, he's not doing it for ideology--he's doing it because he understands the ideology of his base and forever throws red meat to them. I think that's the one thing he's really good at.

In the past when diseases threatened the population, people did their civic duty and were vaccinated. What has changed since then that people won't protect others because of an ideological belief? In the midst of a once-in-a lifetime pandemic, why do some put personal freedom above the health and safety of everyone else? Is it fear of the slippery slope?

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bry911

Well, I don't thing *we* have any authority to disallow it if there are no laws established that criminalize it.

There are laws that establish and criminalize those things... That is what this discussion is about, the abridging of a personal freedom by making masks required by some legal mechanism.

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elvis

It's curious to me that no one has answered this question yet.

Well. You see, Shead, we are just blown away with bry's philosophical diatribe. No one knew what to say! Whew, well I'm over that. Where were we? Ah, yes.

Uh-oh. There's more...

This is a red herring and of no relevance here other than in your mind. It is logical fallacy... Here is the problem... If I say yes, then that means I feel the good done outweighs the possible harm. If I say no, then that means I unconvinced the good done outweighs the possible harm.

Funny how that works. Of course, there are wonderful terms for that sort of thing. So far we've got: red herring, logical fallacy, sorites, and of course, there's always the good old slippery slope.

So bry's not going to answer Shead's question. We get that. Moving along.

____________

bry911

Bry- do you think all men with AIDS should have their privates removed?

As for your question specifically... Why do you want to mutilate the genitals of men?

QM didn't write that she wanted to mutilate men's genitals, you did.

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bry911

Wow Elvis... I answered the question an hour ago. In fact, only minutes after Shead asked it.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Lurker, Herman Cain is DEAD. Please absorb that fact. he should not be DEAD. We are talking about how to keep other Hermans from dying or not. Which side are you on?

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HU-274840647

Bry I want thank you once again for being the adult in the room and not reacting to the provocation, in fact I think it is a master class in standing one’s ground.

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Toby

I was enjoying the discussion with shead and bry and ignoring the distraction rather than comment on it and let it overtake a good conversation. Sad that people have to now fly in and attack the posters. Did ya'll get bored with the other twenty threads you could post to instead?

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shead

“In the midst of a once-in-a lifetime pandemic, why do some put personal freedom above the health and safety of everyone else? Is it fear of the slippery slope?“


Yes, it probably is.

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Stan Areted

It absolutely is.


"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)"


Attributed to Benjamin Franklin, similar statements attributed to him and others.


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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Wearing a mask to protect yourself and others around you is giving up an "essential liberty"?

eta - still no answer after 20 hours.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I always like to point out that Canadians did not go to war with Britain and somehow ended up with the same essential liberties we have. They kept their safety and got liberty too.

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bry911

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

LOL... the irony of this post in this thread is so rich, that it deserves special mention. This quote is from Franklin's 1755 letter to the Pennsylvania governor urging that he allow a tax on the Penn family proceed without veto. The governor had been assuring his position as governor by favoring the family that had put him there.

In that quote the liberty is actually a tax that was to be used for the protection of citizens of Pennsylvania (specifically, the social contract that all Pennsylvanians have to protect the frontier lands,) and temporary safety was the political safety of the governor.

That is the danger of learning historical quotes rather than history...

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Stan Areted

I know the background of the quote, "bry11."

I know the history.

It is my experience that underestimating others comes back to bite you one way or the other.

The quote is no less applicable and no less salient in context of the topic because of the history. As a matter of fact, this is old ground.




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patriciae_gw(07)

Great historical minutia Bry.

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bry911

I simply take people at their word, when you used the quote improperly and miscited it, I didn't automatically jump to the conclusion that you were lying.

Again, the letter was urging the governor to uphold the social contract even at the discomfort of some powerful citizens. Can you please explain how this furthers your point? Because the letter (with subject changes) could be sent to president Trump today in support of a mask mandate, but could not be sent in opposition to it.

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HU-274840647

Of course you have to go and have look at the context of the quore, I did. I have seen it before and I wondered how Stan was using it. The word ‘purchase’ stands out but it seems that this was it’s literal meaning, ie someone trying to buy privilege. So I am left wondering, as Stan says he knows all this What does this have to do with Cain and mask wearin.

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Stan Areted

It has to do with giving up freedoms to supposedly stay "safe" based on the opinions and wants of others.



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HU-274840647

NOw that is pretty clear

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deegw

Oh boy. It's amazing that someone can type just 20 words and be so wrong in so many ways.

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ImWithJoe

Stan Areted

I know the background of the quote...I know the history.

———-

curious why you misuse the quote in this thread then.

Ben’s quote is often misunderstood, don’t be defensive.

when taken in context, he was really stating a strong government must enact legislation that permanently protects it's people rather than be bribed for temporary security.

he was chastising legislators willing to trade the government’s right to tax (liberty) for a payoff (from the Penns) to buy weapons (temporary security).


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bry911

Not only is it misused by Stan, that interpretation is really ridiculous. Do you think Benjamin Franklin was in favor of anarchy? It seems a rather ridiculous assertion for a framer. He helped construct a document whose entire purpose was to give up small liberties in the pursuit of a nation.

It is a quote often misused by people who conveniently never think about it.

Here is the bottom line, there are far more restrictive things in your life than wearing masks that there is no fuss about. A man with a little bit of extra money can't pay for intercourse with a woman who needs a little extra money largely because it is immoral. There is little good to society from that and there never has been, yet I don't see people railing against that. My HOA says I can only have two dogs... Talk about infringing on my liberty, what right have they to tell me that I can't have a third dog?

Masks are a stupid hill to die on! Stupid. We silently accepted thousands of things in our lives daily that are much larger infringements with much less reason. You all are not getting bent about that because CNN didn't report it. In the end, this is just not that big a political issue that you are choosing to politicize, and that simply seems like an ID-10T issue.

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elvis

Nonsense^^^.

I think that Stan was saying that this is about the government's power over citizens. The more safeguards the government puts into place (for our own good, right?), the more freedoms we, the citizens, lose. Good luck getting those freedoms returned once the government has taken them. This is not a complicated concept.

Sorry...


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Iris GW

Yeah, the government is going to make us wear masks for life, is that it, elvis?

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mudhouse

It's interesting (and good) to learn the origin of that quotation by Franklin; I've seen it widely used to mean almost the opposite of the original meaning for years. But Franklin's original meaning being different doesn't invalidate what it means to most of us when used in the 21st century. Ben Wittes said as much, in this NPR interview about the original context of the quote: "And maybe it doesn't matter so much what Franklin was actually trying to say, because the quotation means so much to us in terms of the tension between government power and individual liberties."

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century

There have been some good thoughtful comments in this thread, and I appreciate being able to read them.

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Toby

Lipstick sales will plummet.

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elvis

Fine by me. It makes people look ghoulish.

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ImWithJoe


elvis

Nonsense^^^.

I think that Stan was saying that this is about the government's power over citizens.

——

if that is what Stan was saying, Stan ought not attribute a quote that, in context, doesn’t say that.


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mudhouse

Since we're focusing on the importance of context, am I the only one that tends to consider the question of mask wearing (and whether or not that action impacts a personal freedom) in the context of other recent restrictions on our personal freedom?

In my state, we've just had another 30 day extension of our current restrictions, including, no gatherings larger than five people, even in your own home (where practical, of course; they don't mean large families have to boot out the kids.)

And, another 30 day extension of no indoor dining, and an extension of a required 2 week quarantine for anyone who flies or drives into the state, churches restricted to a percentage of occupancy rating, no in-person schooling in the forseeable future, and so on.

Without getting into arguments about whether or not those are valid restrictions, my point is...when I think about whether or not the question of mask mandates are an intelligent hill to die on, I consider that question within the context of a lot of other Covid19 restrictions that impact our daily lives as well.

Masks are just one restriction, and logical or not, the variable reactions people have to wearing masks are probably impacted by more than just masks alone, if we're trying to puzzle out why some people feel the way they do about wearing them.

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patriciae_gw(07)

It seems pretty obvious to me that pretty much everyone who argues that making people wear masks infringes their freedoms actually wear masks makes this politics. If Trump told you all to wear masks five months ago you would be chewing on people about what kind. Mine would not suit.

I did not recognize the quote and made my own interpretation of it as is apparently my right as a citizen to misuse a quote for something it doesnt mean which is weird since the point of a quote is short hand for what ever the quote addresses. Though I didn't bother to look it up (I have a thing about our Revolution) but I learned something so a good day. Does anyone understand what a Propertarianist is? That is my truly obscure wonder for the day.

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mudhouse

Off to look up propertarianist, Patriciae. :-)

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ubro(2a)

Thanks bry, today I needed the voice of reason and sanity and you provided it, well done.

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Nana H

""It seems pretty obvious to me that pretty much everyone who argues that
making people wear masks infringes their freedoms actually wear masks
makes this politics."

Certainly the case here.

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Stan Areted

It's not politics.

It's Constitution, which is not just adhered to when it's convenient for one party's goals.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Very hard to make an argument based on the US Constitution when other liberties are not absolute.

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Stan Areted

Try and keep us smothered.

Not a gonna happen.

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Stan Areted

I'mWithJoe:

if that is what Stan was saying, Stan ought not attribute a quote that, in context, doesn’t say that.


Stan can use any quote Stan likes, and Stan can intend those words to mean exactly what Stan intends them to mean. Benjamin Franklin doesn't own those words.


Quotes aren't "misused."

They are only quotes, the words meaning what the person that uses them intends for them to mean.


If someone thinks differently, Stan doesn't care.

Stan knows what Stan meant, and so does Elvis and Mudhouse, and others that have used those words, as well.


There are many phrases uttered and written by many people throughout the centuries that others have often used, some meant the same, some did not.


If I had not attributed the phrase to BF this thread would have been about Stan not attributing to BF. Instead, it's "Stan's meaning isn't the same as I think it was."


Poppycock, more Saul Alinsky at work, such a tired little game.


Others don't get to decide what Stan means when Stan uses words.

Others can scroll on by.


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studio10001

patricae, what made you ask?

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HU-274840647

Don’t be silly if you have something to say then just say it plainly, if you annex another persons words you can’t bend them to mean what you want them to mean.

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jmm1837

"It's Constitution, which is not just adhered to when it's convenient for one party's goals."


Please point me to the section of the Constitution that protects your "right" not to wear masks.

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terezosa / terriks
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cattyles

trump wants you to wear a mask now, Stan. Haven’t you heard?

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ImWithJoe


jmm1837

"It's Constitution, which is not just adhered to when it's convenient for one party's goals."


Please point me to the section of the Constitution that protects your "right" not to wear masks

——-

look near the section that addresses requiring clothing in public.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Just boil it down already - If trump dosen't want to wear a mask then many of his supporters don't want to either, it's not complicated, it's kool-aid.

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Ziemia(6a)

Increasingly nonsensical.... claims that masks are constitutionally an individual choice....

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jmm1837

terezosa / terriks


I particularly like the following quote from the Jacobson case cited in your link:


"Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect to his person or property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."


The insistence on placing one's own rights over the rights of society at large is in fact a constriction, not an expansion, of freedom.

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queenmargo

vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Just boil it down already - If trump dosen't want to wear a mask then his supporters don want to either, it's not complicated, it's kool-aid.

I wear a mask vg, as do many Trump supporters, I don't want to, but I do. I think most people do not want to wear masks.

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heri_cles

You are dreaming if you think that.

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heri_cles

or watching too much Fox.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Ok margo, I adjusted my post to reflect that, you are right that some T posters here do do their civic duty..........I just typed do do, nyuk.....bedtime for me,will dream about a hurricane coming my way, ugh.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Link

It's not unconstitutional to make citizens wear masks. See below and the link for the explanation.

The preservation of the public health has historically been the responsibility of state and local governments.

Clarity in leadership is crucial in a joint federal, state, and local response to any event which could cause harm to the public's health. The public health authority of the states derives from the police powers granted by their constitutions and reserved to them by the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The basis for the federal governments’ authority to prescribe a quarantine and other health measures is based on the Commerce Clause, which gives Congress exclusive authority to regulate interstate and foreign commerce.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Studio, I was voting in my state's primary sitting here in my chair and one of the people running for state office listed his party as Propertarianist. OK says I, what on earth is that? I looked it up and got Lochean philosophy and some generic thing about about ethics being somehow formed by property ownership. Mud so far as I can understand. Everything I read went back to the same strange phrase with Ayn Randian beliefs and Libertarianism except they eschew being Libertarian. Scratch my head. I love being able to do this in the family room of my house and mail my vote or drive to town and put it in a drop box. I did not vote for this person. Just saying. I can be elastic normally but this year I went Democratic.

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Stan Areted


Litigate it.

It's not been litigated.

Wearing clothes, and ordering quarantines for sick people--yes.

Forcing healthy people to wear a mask when we have been told it's to protect others if we have it, will have a difficult time passing muster in the courts.

Since we know the virus is considerably smaller than any mask we can wear, it's a feel good, maybe help, maybe reduce, but also very, very restrictive, dangerous in some instances, can increase infections, cause other health problems and interfere with people doing their jobs and endangering others possibly.

Try it--right now, you can't make us.

Businesses can pretty much dictate that, let'ssee if the government can MAKE everyone in this country wear a mask everywhere they go.

Try it.

Women's Studies graduates going to enforce it, huh?

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dirtygert(5-NY)

Lord knows I wished I'd gone to bed before reading the last 2 posts.

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cattyles

But trump has changed his mind. He’s asking everyone to wear masks. You don’t want to hurt his campaign, do you?

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Iris GW

Forcing healthy people to wear a mask when we have been told it's to protect others if we have it

Are you saying that protecting others is not a good enough reason?

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dadoes



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cattyles

I wonder if it has entered trump’s mind that if he had advocated masks from the beginning, Herman Cain might be alive. Where ever he got it, if all had been wearing masks there’s a good chance he would still be here. trump was definitely defensive when asked about him.

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Iris GW

I wonder if it has entered trump’s mind that if he had advocated masks from the beginning, Herman Cain might be alive. Where ever he got it, if all had been wearing masks there’s a good chance he would still be here.

Yep and about 100,000 other people might still be alive as well. Blood on his hands.

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jmm1837

"Forcing healthy people to wear a mask when we have been told it's to protect others if we have it, will have a difficult time passing muster in the courts."

First of all, it's virtually impossible to tell who is healthy and who is not when a significant percent of the carriers are asymptomatic, have never been tested, but are still contagious.

Second, the seminal decision Jacobsen decision, cited in TTs link, made it clear that governments have a responsibility/responsibility to protect the public at large. To that end, they certainly do have the authority to impose restrictive measures provided they are based on the good scientific evidence. That evidence in relations to Covid19 now says that wearing facemasks reduces the spread of the virus.

Thirdly, it has been litigated. The complainants lost.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=612045170386328119&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

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studio10001

'I actually feel bad for those who need to control what others do. Indicates their authoritarian nature.

Priceless. Let's save this one, too, for the next BLM rant.

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olychick

And the next anti-choice rant.

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olychick

"Since we know the virus is considerably smaller than any mask we can
wear, it's a feel good, maybe help, maybe reduce, but also very, very
restrictive, dangerous in some instances, can increase infections, cause other health problems and interfere with people doing their jobs and endangering others possibly."

So doctors and nurses should simply go barefaced, as they are causing more problems for themselves by wearing masks?

WOW! The "logic" some people come up with in order to keep from just doing the right thing - for others and themselves.


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George Davis

You know who else will suffer the same "fate" as cain. That poor candice girl. I remember that laugh she did for that stupid ( I got my jaw broke) fighter. See the other thing about cameras is it lets you see more effects of Karma. You can watch in real time. Your history, the time you spend on this earth can be seen. Things that use to be folklore and fables about the life style you choose now can be seen over time. I mean let's be real here even the One's last words were "Forgive them for they know not what they do."

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bry911

"Since we know the virus is considerably smaller than any mask we can wear, it's a feel good, maybe help, maybe reduce, but also very, very restrictive, dangerous in some instances, can increase infections, cause other health problems and interfere with people doing their jobs and endangering others possibly."

Water molecules are smaller than the pores in sponges. So people out there wasting their money on sponges are idiots, they don't work for cleaning up spills...

The only legitimate danger there is from wearing a mask is the danger that you no longer be the village idiot.

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George Davis

The reason masks worth because while the virus is small enough to get thru the mask it transmitted by water droplets that aren't. Actually I'm more worried that this virus makes you more socable so it can spread faster.

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HU-274840647

Like I said a couple of weeks back, mask wearing is the new IQ test.

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Joaniepoanie

For all the anti-maskers——-next time you have surgery just tell the surgeon and his/her team they don’t have to wear masks because, you know, it’s “very, very restrictive, dangerous in some instances, can increase infections, cause other health problems and interfere with people doing their jobs and endangering others possibly."

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deegw

The nonsense in this thread happens all the time. The virus is a burning forest fire, Trump fans try to ignore it by self-soothing with non-stop arguments about which species of trees are in the forest.

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lurker111


The nonsense in this thread happens all the time.

Thanks for the example.

Lurker, Herman Cain is DEAD. Please absorb that fact. he should not be
DEAD. We are talking about how to keep other Hermans from dying or not.
Which side are you on?

Stop the pandemic protests. Problem solved.

Honestly, I don't know which deleted post you are referring to.

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deegw


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HU-274840647

Show us the evidence that ending protests will end the pandemic as it sounds like shifting the blame to me and a way to unlawfully end protests.

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Iris GW

I'm not convinced that the masks offer much help. Our numbers pretty much prove that.

Stop the pandemic protests. Problem solved.

Which is it, lurker? Both of those comments are yours.

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lurker111

See the other thread where you asked the same question.

Both of those comments are spot on.

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lurker111

Show us the evidence that ending protests will end the pandemic as it
sounds like shifting the blame to me and a way to unlawfully end
protests.

The pandemic protests are illegal. The fact that they are spreading it like wildfire is not shifting blame. It's blaming the people who are responsible for spreading it. What am I "shifting the blame" from? Age group, race, and dates are all that is needed to prove it, no matter how they try to hide the contact tracing. I'm sure most of these young Hispanics are Trump supporters, right?

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lurker111

Notice how the crats blamed Trump for not having enough tests? They needed those tests for contact tracing. Now, they do everything to interfere with the tracing, including giving instructions not to ask about race and the riots. They know what the tracing will prove and are afraid of the results. Tracing used to be all that was important to the crats. Now, they hide the numbers.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Contact tracing has become a sad joke as time sensitive backlogged results are worthless.

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bry911

Politics of Covid-19 in a nutshell:

Countries who had a strong national response to the virus have had immense success mitigating the economic and health effects.

Democratic response: we should follow their example because we know it works.

Republican response: America is the best country in the world and thus things that work in those countries will not work here. In fact, gravity, an American invention, doesn't even work in China they are actually held to the ground by their attraction to America.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Today's Chuckle Bry ^^^

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Toby

The Republican response is actually that God is going to rescue us because we're the Great America. Like gravity, he can't be seen but they know he exists.

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lurker111

Democratic response: we should follow their example because we know it works.

By rioting in the streets and killing people...steal, burn, destroy...But watch out for the church goers!

Silly crats. Great logic.

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palisades_

Reading through these posts it seems Democrats know and practice mask wearing in public. But California, being a blue state, is among a handful of states that have highest Covid cases. One of my staff in his 20’s came back from vacation in the San Francisco area told me many people out there did not wear masks in public. I asked him, did you wear yours? Absolutely he said. I considered we’ve trained him well.

People have been attacked or killed when reminding someone to wear masks in public, so be careful when you approach them outside this forum. On my way to work, I saw Mask Required signs posted on the streets were sprayed with cross marks. There will always be some selfish and ignorant people out there.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Lurker, When covid started spreading in this country George Floyd was alive and well. When he died on the 25th of May we already had 98,607 deaths from this virus. That was before any protests or riots.

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lurker111

Reading through these posts it seems Democrats know and practice mask wearing in public.

I wouldn't depend on what I read in this forum. It's mostly propaganda.

Lurker, When covid started spreading in this country George Floyd was
alive and well. When he died on the 25th of May we already had 98,607
deaths from this virus. That was before any protests or riots.

That was mostly due to covid cuomo.The protesting riots destroyed any chance we had at containing it. We had maybe 2 deaths here before the riots...We have 28 now. Blue cities are a huge problem. It's so obvious. What is the reason for not asking if covid victims were at the riots? To hide the data. We're hiding ours.

Protesting riots...

Protesting riots...

Protesting riots...


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Stan Areted

Well look at that chart! Coinky dink this time?

Spreading that love right? Or is it hate? Oh wait, it's C O V I D 19!

COVID and HATE, the country is getting a twofer from all these woke rioters.

I think burning the United States Flag and burning Bibles in Portland now are spreading hate, right? It has nothing to do with black lives.


Anyone confused about "RIOTS" VS. PEACEFUL PROTESTS?

Some of us have never been confused, or fooled, or in on the lie.

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elvis

If this info is correct, mask-wearing statistically improves the chance of not transmitting by 14.1%. FWIW.

WHEREAS, published scientific research has shown that the probability
of transmission during exposure between a person infected with COVID-19 to an
uninfected person is 17.4 percent if face coverings are not worn, and 3.1 percent
if face coverings are worn;

https://evers.wi.gov/Documents/COVID19/EmO01-FaceCoverings.pdf

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Stan Areted

Thanks for that link.

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elvis

Yes, that's our current governor-directive, starting today. If the numbers are anywhere close to a good guestimate, which is all we've got, then yeah, odds are you're better off with masks. Better than a stick in your eye.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Cities are a problem. The politics of the mayor have nothing to do with cities being cities. Our well publicized reluctance to do the hard things like shutting down and wearing masks like the rest of the first world did is why we are in the situation we are in. A Democratic mayor would be just as reluctant to tell Americans they have to do something for the good of all as any Republican or conservative one. We the people have a stupid problem.

but is hasnt just been cities. I live in a rural county with the first big super spread event. The people ignored strongly stated advice from our Democratic Governor and held their choral practice anyway. Two of them died. Now that event would not be legal.

It is beyond dim to think politics has anything to do with who gets this virus. A virus doesnt think. It doesnt even have any wants. It is and does what it does because it is the right shape to infect. Dont give it access to where it can do that.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

It has certainly become clear that GOP is the party of magical thinking...

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Toby

Lol. Lurker's interpretation of those charts completely ignores the fact that businesses opened up around Memorial Day in virtually all of the states. Or shall we say, what a coinky dink that COVID cases rose after businesses reopened.

But what a tiresome argument....hour after hour, day after day, week after week.....

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Nana H

Which is why I simply ignore......

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bry911

Lol...Lurker's interpretations of the charts...

Individuals from the southern states traveled to the northern states to protest. The virus, realizing that there were southerners at the protests, chose to selectively infect those from the southern states. I guess Covid wanted to take a Florida vacation and that explains why the virus didn't spike in many states with large protests but did spike in the southern states that didn't have large protests

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elvis

Nana H

Which is why I simply ignore......

All evidence to the contrary. The new and improved way of saying "I am going to scroll on by".

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patriciae_gw(07)

Ignore misrepresentation of facts?

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Toby

I think some misrepresent facts because it's the only way to get attention.

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jmm1837

All evidence to the contrary. The new and improved way of saying "I am going to scroll on by".


Why not? Conservatives ignore all evidence to the contrary when it comes to the lack of any link between protests in the north and an increase in covid cases. Or the very real link in the south between opening up and the increase in covid numbers. And, of course, they also ignore evidence about the effectiveness of masks and the ineffectiveness of Hydroxychloroquine. Heck, they ignore unambiguous facts about when WHO notified the world about the threat Covid19 presented. Time to consider the mote in your own eye.

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Ziemia(6a)

"Conservatives ignore all evidence to the contrary when it comes to the lack of any link between protests in the north and an increase in covid cases. "

Not really the *conservatives*. Many conservatives are saying the same thing wrt Covid-19. The divide is largely between Trump supporters and others.

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Iris GW

Herman Cain ... turning Georgia blue one Covid victim at a time.

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jmm1837

Fair enough. I was thinking mostly of the regulars here, for whom the two terms seem to be interchangeable, but Lincoln Project conservatives are in a different category, I agree..

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terezosa / terriks

Trump isn't a Conservative. He is an Opportunist.

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jmm1837

Oh, I know that. His followers appear not to, though.

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Joaniepoanie

I suppose when the kiddos go back to school and the virus soars the “rioting” kindergartners will be to blame.

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HU-274840647

Trump established very early on that truth was of no consequence, once that is accepted he can make up whatever fits his agenda. There are those who benefit from this and they are the ones with th power. As George Carlin said it is a club and you are not in it.

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jmm1837

" Funny nonsense from the opposite side of the world. I wonder if they actually believe what they say? No, that couldn't be. It would be like me telling them what was happening in their back yard...like I would even care."


Amazing as it may seem to you, I have opinions on the PMs of Canada, NZ and the UK, the Presidents of the US, Russia, Ireland and France, the Chancellor of Germany, the Chairman of the PRC, the Supreme Leader of the DPRK and quite a few others. I have never considered ignorance a goal to which I should aspire. But, each to his own.

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ubro(2a)

Funny nonsense from the opposite side of the world. I wonder if they actually believe what they say? No, that couldn't be. It would be like me telling them what was happening in their back yard...like I would even care."

Therein lies part of the problem, only interested in your own. We learn from those who succeed, and it is not hard to admit when other countries do well, and it is not hard to admit where we have failed.

Good change does not happen if you blindly believe that nothing your country does is ever wrong.

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ronminsouthga

HU and what is the rest of your name. Donald Trump was not into politics in 2008 when George Carlin make that statement. Look who was in the Big Club then. Demos and Reps.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Well George Carlin was specifically NOT talking about politicians in that quote.

Read it for yourself.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/964648-but-there-s-a-reason-there-s-a-reason-there-s-a-reason

ETA the part of the quote I’m referencing, so people don’t need to take the trouble of clicking the link for themselves. “I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't.” (Emphasis mine)

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elvis

“Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land, they own and control the corporations that've long since bought and paid for, the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pocket, and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and the information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else. But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them.”

- George Carlin


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Nana H

"They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical
thinking. They don't want well informed, well educated people capable of
critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help
them.”

...and that most certainly applies to Trump......and in spades.

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Ziemia(6a)

ronm - What makes you think Carlin was limiting his comment to politics?

Guess he was talking about Owners. And that sure includes Trump. While he was a small Owner, he was playing big.

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shead

“and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and the information you get to hear.“

————-

And who does this apply to?

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Ziemia(6a)

Robert Mercer?

Rebekah Mercer?

Murdoch?

Koch?

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