I agree with everyone that this board has so often been such a warm, supportive place to come, somewhat anonymously, for help with life's challenges. I'm not one of those posters who is able to remember too much about other's on-screen personalities, so I don't conjure up a history for Arcy in my mind when I see a post from her. (It's kind of weird, honestly, I'm not virtue-waving here; I'm often in awe of other posters who really remember other's histories.) Anyway, I digress. But at the risk of sounding like a Pollyanna, I do think we are in probably the most collectively trying time we have ever, as a nation and a globe, lived through, and many people are not at their best right now. So I think we should probably just give Arcy a lot of space right now. We don't have to agree, but we don't have to pile on either, and it might be kinder to just give people a wider berth than ever.

I notice that Pink has not been back to comment. I remember a time when I aired relationship issues on the boards, and 100 responses later was kind of regretting it.

I've been reluctant to post for fear of projecting (my marriage ended in divorce 10 years ago). I did want to offer my support, and just to say that I had similar experiences with my husband not recognizing how often I yielded to him, or not remembering the arguments he won. He once whined to me, "When we argue, you always win" and my jaw just about hit the floor. The thing was, I was pretty easy-going and usually just let him have his way when we disagreed. The only issues that escalated into real arguments were the issues where I wasn't willing to capitulate. He remembered those, but not the hundreds of little (and medium) disagreements where he got his way. I guess getting your way isn't very memorable?

I do think that the pandemic has been a crucible for many relationships, and I imagine that is both heightening existing problems in relationships as well as peoples feelings about those problems. I know my (teen) daughter's relationship with her dad is suffering, and she explicitly blamed too much togetherness.

cawaps, I think you hit on a really good point. Often we yield because we don't want the fight; it sometimes feels as if it's not worth it, or we feel we are being a good partner by being cooperative, giving up something we want because we know something else is important to our partner. But when we stand up for something that's important to us and get our way, our partner sees that as 1 win for us, 0 wins for them. Thus, we always get our way.

That's not so say that our partner isn't doing the same thing, but I think in our hearts of hearts we know if that is true or not. And if they are not, there is an imbalance of power and cooperation that can cause resentment and feelings of not being heard or respected.

I hope you're OK Pink!

This is a theme for many types of human relationships, the idea of two types of ways of looking at things, the "black white, I'm right and someone else has to be wrong' perspective and the consensus and creative perspective that often creates a whole other narrative that is a hybrid or totally different from either idea. It comes about from open listening and the skills of consensus and inquiry. Academics are used to their ideas being challenged and issues being discussed from multiple perspectives. But even there, my field, I am finding more and more reluctance of students to engage in it because (IMHO) our multiple choice one right answer for every question schooling has led to people terrified of being wrong, being an outlier, making a mistake or having the "wrong" answer and another group greatly invested in powering their way to their perspective being the one "correct" one. That's why I framed it as a cultural issue rather than just a marriage issue.

The examples I gave are not torturing me, they are minor and multiple. Perhaps death by a thousand cuts, but each one is mostly minor. Like yesterday we were driving home from the beach, and both were starving and both said we wanted pizza, and I saw a sign advertising a well known good local pizza franchise with an arrow indicating that it was five miles down a side road. I had never been to that exact location of the chain, only the original one several years ago. I would have been perfectly happy taking the ten minute side trip, and if the pizza turned out to be mediocre or the place was closed or hard to find, it would have been an "oh well, now we know" thing for me and onwards. To hubs, it would have been a major upset/upheaval and would have bothered him the rest of the way home. So I sucked it up and was hungry for the rest of the hour ride home and ate a leftover sandwich from the fridge as soon as we got in the door. My experience with my husband's desire for extreme certainty and control range from something as eminently forgettable as this, to more serious problems. On the flip side, he sucks it up and puts up with us having to spend time with my disruptive and mentally ill father, so he could be posting his own frustrations here. Lives have hard times.

If I sound "tortured" maybe that is partly on how our expectations are of conflicts and relationships that are always harmonious, the great American love of "progress.' The reason I said I wasn't interested in discussing counseling is not because I don't believe in it or am ready or open to it, but to be real, we have no money for it and one has to do a "cost benefit" analysis of how effective it might be in solving your problem. I paid for two months of counseling which was 360 dollars, before we married, about a problem that has completely disappeared from our marriage. Not because of the counseling, because my husband retired from his job and stopped obsessing about that particular thing. We stopped due to it not being very helpful along with not being able to afford to spend the money on something that was not a sure bet as to being useful over the long haul. I don't have tens of dollars now, let alone hundreds or thousands to spend on interpersonal issues. Food on the table and gas and electricity takes precedence and we are barely making those payments.

The counselor suggested that we need to alter the way we speak to each other, and being in a public position and having studied the effects of speech on interpersonal relationships and practiced it for many years, I can tell you that it made no difference in my husband's perspective or problem solving strategies. The counselor suggested that I use the phrase, "Honey, that seems a little controlling" if we got into a conflict and I felt I wasn't being respected. That's laughable. Please send me $360.00 if that works for you. You can't change the mindset of a 67 year old man who has never had to work with women and who spent 30 years in a field where being the "boss" and the one who had all the right answers was the dominant way to be and succeed. Call it misogyny if you want to put a very, very negative spin on all of it, but good luck erasing it from your life. Also someone whose parents had acrimonious relationships and whose parents were not 'partners' by any stretch of the imagination is going to have a very difficult time envisioning other ways of being.

My husband is a dear, dear man when taken as a whole. He has his strengths and weaknesses. But there is only so many tricks you can teach an old dog and particularly if they have a lot of investment in the success of one system. Ironically, I also have a lot of investment in the tools and success of consensus and intellectual questioning.

For a couple of years I worked in a leadership training program. There is a large subset of people who have a "boss/underling" dominant paradigm, and that affects how they view leadership. They usually don't have the greatest interpersonal skills, and feel the "job" or "role" of a leader is to be in charge and to get everyone to do what they want them to do, often exactly as they want or tell them to do it. And that is one way and style of leading and it has it's place and pluses, as well as some significant minuses. The other school of leadership is very aware of the personalities and strengths and needs of the "team" and they see themselves as facilitators of mutual goals and getting the best from the individuals on the team. Again, that has a lot of pluses, but also some negatives as it sometimes takes longer to achieve goals, and problematic people can often gum up the works of the team.

Although I have studied it, it's hard to say whether people can change all that much and get better. at interpersonal relationship and teamwork. I was working at the college level, and some students did come back to say what a profound effect the training had on their lives. But that's not the case for everyone. I certainly understand the "shut up and do what i tell you" school of being an underling, but whether or not and for how long the underling will put up with that style of leadership depends on how beneficial and pleasant it is for the underling and how successful and positive the outcomes for the team. Those types of leaders are often clueless as to the toll it is taking on the followers, and often feel completely baffled and betrayed with the underling finally has had too much and revolts. Right now in my marriage, the times when my bossy husband is useful and helpful and supportive of my needs far outweighs the downside, but I really wish our home life was more peaceful and inspiring. I have discussed this with my husband, but his own family life both growing up and then his first marriage, was not like this so he really doesn't have a clear vision of how it could be. He has also never worked with a woman before nor been involved with collaborative teams. Zippo women in his 30 years of working construction. Particularly zippo women leaders and only once did he ever run across anyone on the job who was female, and even then he didn't work directly with her.

Even the idea that this is a sensitive subject to discuss online is somewhat cultural. I'm a biologist, so i can discuss sex, death, and all kinds of noxious goo and gross behaviors with zest and interest, but I have learned that not all people are so inclined. Same with relationships, I often blab on about things other people find immensely personal with detached interest. And i consider myself to be very private. If this was a core issue and my marriage really was on the rocks, I certainly would be discreet enough not to post about it on here. Maybe I'm just struggling because I no longer have good friends around to visit with and vent and talk over life's issues with in my local life anymore. My friendships and family life has all gone virtual . . .

Thanks for weighing in Pink. You write very eloquently about the situation, and I share your worldview. Things don't have to be perfect to be preferable to the alternative.

Thanks for getting back to this Pink. I really think you will enjoy the book I mentioned up-thread. When I read it, my interest was broad and not specific to my personal needs, at least on a conscious level. The perspective he takes on relationships was new and interesting to think about. And when I read it, given what I saw around me, it answered a lot of questions I had about how seemingly dysfunctional relationships lasted.

Pink, it takes an amazing level of introspection to reach the type of incisive, thoughtful, human assessment you’ve presented! You’re in a very difficult situation, rendered all the more complicated and challenging by financial factors. It takes much courage to share such deeply personal hurts publicly. Please know that we’ll listen closely and with empathy. I don’t know if you ever want to reach out to anyone here individually, and I don’t want to presume you do, but if you do, I for one will be glad to listen and help in anyway I can. Love and hugs.

Thank you for this thoughtful update, Pink, and if I may add a few more cents, since you seem pragmatic. I didn't bring up the age issue in my prior posts, but there is a big difference between acceptance at 67, and acceptance at 37. I understand your reasoning about the counseling at this stage in life. I wish my husband and I would have done it 20 years ago, but I'm certain it wouldn't do much good today.

Some will say it's never too late to change, and that is true, of course. But it's not universal for everyone. And at this stage in your life, you are clearly weighing where you are and your circumstances. I appreciate the dialogue you've opened up here in this thread.

Fantastic ideas and insights and resources here. Good relationships can be made better and even the best go through their ups and downs! Jo is right, i would like to put myself first once and a while but one may not be so lucky in life as to have that luxury, particularly when money is tight. Both hubs and I have struggled our whole lives just to keep home together, so putting ourselves first is not necessarily going to happen. He had a very sad relationship with his wife and now his son causes him constant insecurity, does not seem to be able to "settle" and my father is the same, on the opposite end of the age spectrum. I do understand the importance of using positive talk and not being critical. That's one of the things I was trained in as a teacher and leader, the importance of praise. So while I was being somewhat negative here, I constantly use words of praise. Hubs is really not much for that, either saying such things or even appreciating them. A common interaction for us is that he will make dinner (see, he's a keeper!) and I will praise it highly, and a few minutes later he will say, "What did you think of this dinner?" I said, "Don't you remember me just raving about it?" So such things don't register that much with him. So I think actions would be better, but even then, he is so used to being a contained "lone wolf" as far as other people doing for him, it isn't much of an impact. I've asked him about what kinds of things make him feel happy and valued. He never gives much of an answer. He built me a beautiful raised bed garden this spring with a fence around it and everything, and a couple of days ago I said, "I hope you are proud of your work and enjoying seeing the great results of your labor!" His reply was, "I wish it was bigger." Not sure that my lavish praise bears all that much weight . . .

Also great insight Pricklypearcactus about the vegetarian jokes. My husband has a very snarky sense of humor, and two of his big targets are tofu and lentils!! I don't expect him to like them or eat them, and I don't mind the jokes . . . to a point . . . .! But I'm not cracking constant "Meat is gross" jokes . . . I usually let this one go. Like I said, most of this is minor, but it does build up. That's why I have been talking to hubs about creating a peaceful, loving home with more positive talk rather than a combative snark atmosphere. My comment about TV was related to that, so much of TV from news to programming is hyper "danger" signaling, for its attention getting qualities.. I'm not expecting something pollyanaish, I am a scientist and don't believe in denying facts and sweeping things under the rug, but just more positive since a lot of life is just glass half empty or full, the amount of water is the neutral fact. But if one is not so inclined, and is naturally kind of a smart aleck. I can dish it out too, but I don't necessarily want to live that way. i had to learn to curtail it as a teacher. Snarking at your students does NOTHING to educate them or create a good learning environment.

Edited to add that I often encourage my husband to, "Bask in your glory!" I learned a lot of these habits of speech a long time ago when I was working with Quakers, and a lot of it comes out of the peace movement. If you haven't been exposed to it, it takes a while to realize what's happening. We used to make jokes, because "Thank you for sharing" is a Quaker way of saying, "That's the dumbest idea I have ever heard!" That's not really true, it's a snarky joke, but I can have a sense of humor about it too, it is possible to do it and to not be insincere, but it is a habit of mind. It's sometimes learning to appreciate and be thankful for small things that one might not normally notice or be grateful for. Yesterday I was in a public bathroom and I overheard a mother say to her young child, "I really like and appreciate how you were being patient and waiting for me, that was a very good job." She was truly thankful too, not "just saying it." If I compliment someone on some little detail, I really do appreciate it, I'm not being phony, that's a habit of mind I developed.

Years and years ago, after graduating from high school, my boyfriend and I went over to see our music teacher and mentor at his apartment. My boyfriend was two years older than me and he had already developed a peer relationship with the teacher because they played jazz gigs together. He jokingly asked the teacher if he had any advice for me now that I was no longer a student but graduated and on my way to adulthood. Back then the drinking age was 18 and we were actually sharing a glass of wine, so that was one of the aspects of the conversation, the joke that now we could do this because we were all "adults." The teacher said "Lower your expectations for happiness" as his advice. It was jokey but only partially. But over the years, I have found that to be almost the BEST advice I have ever received!!

I think the positive comments do register with him but I wonder if somewhere along his life he got a lot of negative feedback and so just expects to hear that and that;s the voice that's in his head. So when he asks again about dinner he may be just looking for a little reinforcement and same with the size of the garden. When he does do this maybe you could just have a couple of little lines at the ready - I think it's a good ....... or I like the ..... part of the meal. A bit of a more detailed response as to what you liked specifically.

Everyone is agreeing to staying positive for you Pink so I’ll just say that I really wish your seeking of marital harmony wasn’t such an uphill battle. I’m exhausted just reading about a man who sounds a lot like your dad but with a flip good side or loving side. I wish you all the best ! I wish you happiness and love.

All the best to you, Pink. ❤️

All the best to you Pink! You are so insightful, understanding and a very smart woman! Thanks for responding back to us. I am amazed at what you wrote. Perfectly explained and thoughtful.

I don’t have any advice or further insight for you, Pink. But I have a friend who divorced because she found herself planning and fantasizing a life after her husband was dead. She didn't wish him dead and was not planning on doing anything immoral or illegal. She would simply daydream about how her life would be without him in control. Finally she decided to make that dream come true without waiting for anybody to die. FWIW....

coming back to clarify that i am not equating your situation with hers. Even though you have given a lengthy description here I do not really understand it, nor do I think it’s even possible to get more than a fairly broad brushstrokes idea of anyone else’s marriage. The point I am making is if you imagine yourself alone, and if that feels good, or right, or better, that may tell you something.

I met my husband at 50 and married at 58. I don't have to much fantasize how my life would be without my husband, being single for practically 30 years . . . but I can do the "cost/benefit analysis." It's been pretty good so far, but as to Jo's point, yes, I would sometimes like it to be "all about me" as I am spending a lot of my time accommodating others. Being in public service professionally, I have had to do this most of my life, and not to sound sexist, but I think there is a bias that women should accommodate and men should get their way, as a cultural norm. Which is why I was interested in it as a topic of discussion.

I do not think that is cultural norm, at least it hasn’t been in my experience. I know that I don’t “accommodate“ any more than dh does, and the thought of younger generations doing that makes me laugh. No way in heck would my 17 yo dd EVER accommodate so that her future husband would get his way. She (and I would assume most girls these days) has been raised that marriage is an equal partnership. Heck, I was raised that way as a child in the 80’s.

I'm not so sure about cultural norms...if you read many, many posts on these forums, you'll read: "My husband won't let me" or "My husband has decided" or "He says we have to.." "the 120" TV is non-negotiable" or "The ugly, overstuffed black faux leather recliner has to stay." And that's not even delving into the expectation that so many women are the default cleaners and launderers, meal planners, gift arrangers, cooks and shoppers. Of course, not in all families but it seems more common than not.

Pink, if you want to continue counseling, you may be able to find it free or subsidized to the point of almost free. In my state there are community mental health centers that provide counseling on a sliding fee scale that starts at $0. What you pay depends on your income. Also, many larger churches provide marriage counseling services. Sometimes the pastor is the counselor; sometimes the counselor is trained specifically in marriage and family issues.

I'm sure if this were a forum of mostly men we would hear a lot of "my wife won't let me." And there's that phrase "happy wife, happy life."

Pink, I wish you all the best. You are a thoughtful and sensitive person who deserves to be happy.

I do want to point out as a 51 year old that there has not been marriage in my family where women were expected to accommodate men since before my great grandmother's time. I realize that is not the norm, but by now, a sexist marriage is a conscious choice. Accommodation is a two way street. A family is a mini economy and we each pick and choose how we can best contribute. How we are treated and how we are accommodated is a matter we negotiate early on in every relationship. Sometimes the reset button needs to be hit.

I don't think that "My husband won't let me" or "My husband has decided" or "He says we have to.." "the 120" TV is non-negotiable" or "The ugly, overstuffed black faux leather recliner has to stay" is necessarily a sign of sexism or traditional gender roles, or an inbalance of power. Any of those could be the ONE thing that the husband has asked for himself, or won't compromise on, out of 100 different design decisions where the wife got to make the decision. Or the outcome of any give-and-take where the poster didn't 100% get their way. "We've negotiated, this is what I have to work with." In home design (or anything else), if your tastes aren't in 100% concordance, there will be things where one of the spouses has to give into the other. It's only a problem if it's the same spouse who usually gives into the other, and even then only if they resent it.

I'm sure you're right cawaps and terriks...I guess it's the way it's stated often...or "my husband said I could..." that makes it sound as if women have to get the "permission" of their man to do something instead of it sounding like a joint decision they've both come to or compromised on something. It's the permission aspect that grinds my ax.

Olychick, for what it’s worth I agree with you 100%. That phrase “my husband won’t let me” makes my skin crawl. And even if there has been prior negotiation, when it is presented like that—-or conversely, if the man presents the compromise as “happy wife, happy life”—- then neither of them is satisfied with the arrangement as is. It would never occur to me to ask permission for anything. If I did DH would be looking around for the hidden cameras, it’s that unthinkable.

**Statements above are about people and couples generally, not anyone specific.

I have no problem with the statements above as long as there is reciprocation. If one partner in the relationship has certain boundaries, that's OK as long as he/she respects the boundaries of the other. The mutually content, satisfied couples who claim "my husband won't let me" and "happy wife, happy life" are perhaps quite healthy in professing their needs, having them met, and reciprocating the needs of their partners. Those phrases aren't necessarily indicative of state of the relationship. They can be proactive and empowering.

On the other hand, I know someone who would not sneeze without asking her husband’s permission. Her response to everything is “oh, I could never do that“ whether it is peppering her eggs or buying a new car. (Can you tell this grates on me?) They’ve been married more than 50 years and it seems to work for them. I sometimes wonder, however, if he doesn’t feel the weight of having to make every little decision.

I also think for some women, “I have to ask my husband / my husband won’t let me” is just a way to avoid taking responsibility and possible confrontation for a decision.

The mutually content, satisfied couples who claim "my husband won't let me" and "happy wife, happy life" are perhaps quite healthy in professing their needs, having them met, and reciprocating the needs of their partners. Those phrases aren't necessarily indicative of state of the relationship. They can be proactive and empowering.

Well, strictly speaking Feathers you are arguing that those phrases are indicative of the state of the relationship, only that it is indicative of a healthy relationship instead of an unhealthy one. I respectfully disagree. Oh, occasionally someone may toss off that “happy wife” line as a joke, but I do not think that a life of acquiescence on one partner’s end, and of application for permission on the other’s, is anything other than an emotional minefield masquerading as compromise. Even if the two people love each other, and even if they are satisfied with what they have—- which, all too often, is all they think they deserve.

I’m not a therapist or counselor, just an observer of friends and family members and a person who has always lent a compassionate ear or shoulder. Servility has no place in a loving relationship.

I think the "my husband/wife won't let me" is an example of how different people interpret text differently, depending on their life experiences or their personality. That phenomenon was what I called "cultural" at the beginning of this post, but I don't know if that was the best choice of words. Perhaps "personality" but that seemed so personal and laden with values that I hesitated to use it. When I read "husband/wife won't let me" I don't take it literally. I take it as a jokey way of saying, "This is something I''m not too crazy about but it's near and dear to my husband/wife so I'm compromising and working around it." But sadly, I am pretty sure there are some abusive situations where it is literally true. Not sure that someone typing that statement on a discussion board would literally mean it. That's a personality trait too, some people are more jokey/sarcastic in their language and some are not and don't like that.

As I mentioned before, for a couple of years I worked with a leadership training program and we would always give the students the Myers Briggs personality test. Two things stand out for me, one is that I am an extreme extrovert, which is so often misunderstood, particularly by introverts. I can't tell you the number of times people stereotype extroverts as people who like to be the center of attention or who are overly concerned about superficial opinions people might have about them. Also I've read more than a few articles about how introverts are misunderstood and have all these needs that extroverts don't understand. Well, it works both ways!! Just because an extrovert doesn't mind getting up in front of a group and talking, it doesn't stress them out that much or drain them, does not mean that is something they like or want to do all the time. In fact, they may be sick as all get out of always having to be the "leader" because the introvert would rather sit back and then criticize later if there is a problem!! The perception from an introvert that they are always compromising to accommodate others and the extrovert is not, or that the extrovert's compromises are less meaningful because they don't make as big a deal out of it, is simply not accurate and is based on not acknowledging the value of the other person's perspective. Not saying this is something all introverts do, just that it does happen.

The second observation that happened to me has to do with the last personality trait in the Myer's Briggs pantheon, the J/P dichotomy. One of the criticisms of the Myers Briggs system is it sets up false dichotomies, which I think is true, but also, some people are pretty much smack down the middle and it is only a wisp of data that puts them on one side or the other. I am pretty much half J and half P. J people are organized and like to stick to plans and systems and rules. P are spontaneous, flexible and like to keep options open. When we were discussing these many years ago, students got into an actual fight with the "J's" insisting that it wasn't a value neutral trait, that J was definitely better than P because P was unreliable, disorderly and problematic. Which of course could be the case, but J's could be rigid, bullying and short sighted . . .

This illustrates one of the main issues between my husband and I, because my previous story about taking a side trip to find a pizza parlor is a classic "J vs P" dilemma. Being on the fence, I could see the pros and cons of both possibilities, the risk that the trip would be negative and a waste, vs the possibility that it could have been a wonderful experience that we discovered. Personally, since it was a short side trip, I didn't see the negatives as that bad and was willing to risk it. But my rigid "J" husband would have been made miserable if it had been a bad pizza place and would have chewed on the experience for years, bringing it up again and again as evidence that we should never follow one of my risky schemes. And that's the rub, the idea that his way is so much better, and also that I don't have to compromise again and again and ever narrow my perspective to avoid those spontaneous risky endeavors that hubs is so averse to. Lest you think it is so, so awful, I often try these things on my own, and I have a repertoire of experiences that is vastly larger than hubs due to both my being an extrovert and willing to take risks. These situations where I have to stifle my "P" side are mostly minor and insignificant. Plus, given the right conditions, hubs is occasionally able to be convinced to do something just for the heck of it. J has its wonderful positive side, my husband is literal and reliable to a fault! On the flip side, I am often viewed not only by my husband but coworkers, etc. as flighty and unreliable due to my acceptance of some of the "P" spectrum. It depends on their personalities too.

I just had a former co-worker tell me over the phone how much my tolerance and laid back attitude meant to her when I was her boss, and how it allowed her to grow into the professional she is today. And yet I once had to fight for my job when another boss decided that I was a wild radical bent on destroying the time-honored norms of the organization. He actually left, and I found out that the previous person who had my job tried to change things and he resented it. I actually had no particular "change" agenda and tried to follow his orders and rigidly as possible, but he was always suspicious. Later on I found out he was being pressured to change by the board too, so it was not me, but that's how it was perceived due to his personality. It turned out to be rather ironic, because after he left, the new director questioned all the "business as usual" norms of the organization and I became the champion of the old ways of doing some things, that had been put in place by the guy who accused me of wanting to upset the apple cart too much . . .

As an ecologist by training, I can tell you that nature operates as an almost constant battle between J and P forces . . .

Ipink, very interesting. I learned a lot from your ^^^post. Thanks for posting it.

Interesting analysis of Myers Briggs and how it applies to you and DH. It's sad to think you are both on your own sides of it with an inability to morph into something compatible. DH and I are very opposite in many ways including I vs. E, risk taking, etc. Fortunately we have both grown toward the middle over 42 years of marriage. We are still very different but we do respect and value our differences. I gathered from various posts that you and DH married relatively recently. I have wondered if people who are older are more set in their ways and would have a more difficult time adapting to each other when they marry. A friend of mine recently remarried after 20+ years of being single. She is very strong minded. I visited her and her now DH and noticed how very different they are. Hopefully it will all work out but it made me wonder how adaptable they will be to each others' differences.

To me it seems you married a version of your father. With all your knowledge have you explored that? Could all the understandings you possess be hazardous in its many interpretations within relations in your personal life? Do you think there is a danger of your high regard in understanding the psychology that you could be unconsciously eliminating and or compartmentalizing things so they do not apply to you?

So what do you think would happen if you mentioned to your husband that you felt this way? Particularly that you felt he was dismissive of the way you feel.

Changing your own behavior may trigger your husband to want to make changes.

Yes, I have explored it ad nausea JT. Ironically, one of the truly mean things my DH says to me when we argue is that I am just like my father!! Perspective is interesting. Maybe hubs married a version of my father and he's a version of my mother. Maybe I'm the problem, or . . . maybe me always wondering and being able to imagine that I am the problem IS the problem . . . or maybe these are archetypes, which allow us to ponder things but parse the complex realities of life a little too broadly. If my husband has say, maybe 35% similarity to my father, is that a bad thing? Maybe that's the 35% of my father that is not problematic. Or perhaps, most of the population might have a given 35% of things in common with someone else. Or maybe my father is an angel and I'm the unreasonable one . . . and on we go. Also ironically, these ponderings are the kinds of things P personalities like to engage in, and also scientists. The difference is, scientists have developed systems for exploring our musings and wild ideas. That's where the "J" part comes in. I could write a book about how hubs is not like my Dad, but one that immediately springs to mind and is germane to this discussion is that my dad, like me, is an extrovert and hubs is an introvert. Accommodating and getting along with unpredictable and varied people is a keystone skill set for teachers, which is my profession. Hubs on the other hand was a carpenter. The carpenter did not have to work on or develop people skills. My Dad, the extrovert, thinks my husband is rude because he doesn't have much to say. My dad on the other hand, is often rude because he doesn't listen to others and dominates the conversation. On the other hand, my father is terrible with tools and fixing things. So when I said that I can do the "cost benefit analysis" of my relationships, believe me it is true and I am only too happy to jettison folks who are not encouraging my better angels or their better angels. I just "unfriended" someone today on FB, she was a hot mess but I kept her in the loop for a long time because she had many good qualities . . . in person, but the FB stuff was just too "out there" to be exposed to on a regular basis. But most folks fall somewhere in between.

Edited for BB, I have mentioned it. Many times. Hubs just has a very hard time getting his mind around the concept since it is so out of his realm of experience.

The cost benefit analysis for me comes down to simply how I am treated. There is no benefit to me that is worth being treated poorly.

I pink, I find your long explanations very hard to wrap my head around.

What does all of it mean really, if you are miserable and don’t have a daily comfortable place to land after a long hard day?

Lol Eid, another thing we did in the leadership program was take a "strengths" test, and one of mine was considering all the angles. And yet I know this is very annoying to some . . .

Just to clarify, Pink, I wasn't saying that you need times where it is "all about me". What I was suggesting was that you follow your passion to find an outlet where you can be around people who support you in a way that seems difficult for your husband. For me it was joining a local writing group. We met weekly and it was so empowering to gather with like-minded people who actively cared about each other and our mutual passion for writing. I found the group on Meetup.

What activity/hobby would bring YOU joy? Maybe there is a local meet up group that would interest you? If not, start one!

PInk, instrospection & analysis can be good things, but only you know how you feel on the inside & only you can decide what you're willing to live with or without. I can tell you are very bright & intellectual, but things can be analyzed to a fault...don't get stuck there. Wish you the best.

i think I read up thread that your DH is a contractor.

I was discussing this thread with my DH who is the owner of a contracting/engineering firm. Very big picture sort of guy. I mentioned upthread that I’m a perfectionist. I think you can tell where this is headed but I’ll go there anyway And try to be concise.

The things that are important to me are not important to DH. I can easily get lost in the weeds But am learning the warning signs! DH is constantly thinking - do I have enough trucks for tomorrow’s jobs, what’s the weather, is The equipment ready, oh Yeah. Meeting with insurance company about bonding Meeting with the union, OSHA inspection tomorrow. And the list goes on. Not to mention - can I get in a quick surf before work?? DH has a playful side.

He’s retired now but the big pic temperament hasn’t changed. and my detailed analysis brain hasn’t changed either. But we’ve learned to make it work. I would love to share my coping tricks with you. Feel free to message me.

And in all gentleness, I just want to mention that those of us who are detailed oriented (wouldn’t that include a scientist who relies on good data?) can get hung up on paralysis of analysis. I hope this is taken with the kindness that I feel for you.

I think in any relationship it is a give and take....that being with friends, lovers, husbands etc.

As long as we are comfortable and respect our differences and do not belittle the other for them.... then that is a good start. The other thing for me, is knowing that we both have each other's backs no matter what. That means trust, reliability and so on. Finallly, and very importantly open lines of communication are a must (at least for me). I want to feel comfortable talking about anything and everything. I never want to feel I am walking on eggshells. I know that feeling all too well. I know there is a lot more to it... such as love (hope that is a given). These just popped into my head.

I am a bit of an introvert. I dislike the outdoors (particularly in this heat). So many men I have dated and/or know... love the outdoors and want to be ouside all of the time. I would hope to compromise and respect each others wants and needs. I think it is very important to get this out of the way in the beginiing. No surprises. In all honestly, if one of you loves the outdoors and the other dislikes it most of the time, that likely would not work out too well. I do understand that in the beginning everything is so wonderful you think you just won't care about these things, however, that can change. If a couple works to change together (even if in different ways) and they communicate well -- these differences can be managed or even celebrated.

Generally, and not in re Pink specifically, I think it is very difficult to do any more than listen when someone has marital woes. As many have said, marriages are all very different, and people's needs and wants and tolerances are all very different. We never know the whole story, much of which is not anyone's business.

Moreover, IME, rarely does the person complaining about their spouse seem to want the listener to agree, much less amplify, or point out still other weaknesses and faults. At some point the conversation seems to turn from confiding or seeking advice, to defending. It's understandable, but it makes the whole area a minefield for well meaning advice-givers. It's like telling your BFF how awful her BF was when he breaks up with her ... and then they reunite... and marry! LOL

Mtn, very well said and so very true!

Maybe the defense of a spouse one complains about gives the complainer an insight into their own feelings one way (hey, maybe he isn’t so bad after all) or another (why am I defending this misogynist SOB) and in that way it can be helpful.

However, people who are moved to consult others, not on a specific issue that’s come up, but on the underlying emotional make up of their marriage, are not just looking for affirmation or venting, IME. They are seeking..

In counseling/crisis intervention, it's called the rescue triangle. That's why it's important to try to help the seeker clarify his or her own wants and needs and not attack the other party. It does oftentimes set up a defense posture . Sometimes the listener can distill down a lot of varying complaints to something that helps the seeker see that their needs/desires are not being met. And, of course, always better to talk in generalities than in specific shortcomings of the person being complained about.

Olychick, I think that counseling at its best does that exact thing—-distill. Personally I think children should arrive with their own live-in therapist....initial contract period 18 years and renewable 😊. Spouses should come with one on a five year renewable contract for both the marriage and the counselor. Just to keep everyone on their toes!

I've always told DH that spouses should have annual performance reviews, just like corporate America. Where do you see yourself in five years? It is one of those books I will write someday.

I absolutely agree, mtn!

Mtn - my answer to my husband would be this:

"with YOU, sucker"

Heeheehee

Lol Spanish!!

First of all, my 35 year marriage is far from perfect - we actually had a 3 month trial separation a few years ago. That helped us to see that we did want to be together and put the work into making it work. That being said, I always get an undertone that as women, we need to be more understanding of men's vulnerabilities; they need to be the provider, they need their ego stroked, they aren't good at expressing themselves... Once I called BS on that theory and shared my feelings with DH, things got much better.