Their growth cycle is mainly temperature dependent, so yes, if it cools in your Fall their rate of reproduction slows. In the heat it can reach every 3 days!!! vs. three weeks.

Thank you Moses.

To be clear: I did not doubt your ongoing problem with midge. I wanted to know why midge did not cease to damage your roses after one season’s worth of treatment, and sought your views on the matter.

I too battle midge. Once a year imidacloprid liquid at the base of each rose in late Feb. to early March substantially reduces but does not completely eliminate midge damage. Some breakthrough occurs. Surface binding sites on the buds and distal 3 inches of new shoots are already reserved for the putrescent whole egg/ garlic oil /clove concoction needed to repulse and repel deer. Underplantings make vaporvac’s method problematic. Fortunately I’ve never seen evidence of midge on the roses next door.

Vaporvac: do you have a reference for the midge range of 150 feet? I didn’t realize it was that large.

I used to have midge problems when I first started out. Not terrible midge, mind you, but some burnt tips, etc. This may be totally wrong...but I remember someone here posting a picture of an ant eating a midge (or what may have been a midge). So I stopped trying to kill all the ants here (and there are a lot)...and the midge went away. These ants relentlessly patrol my roses...are they helping??? I don't know...but there's zero midge. Am I suggesting you go and buy some ants. No. LOL...just wondering if there's a connection...and if there is...a little tolerance to the ants...as long as they don't go in your house, etc.

I was on here insisting that ants were eating a rose, but perhaps they were after the midge that was actually the culprit? I never found any aphids, or anything visible for them to be after.

Witchy - maybe!!! I've definitely stopped trying to kill them and instead put cinnamon on this one area (they live under a brick circle (5 feet wide) in my perennial garden when I want to walk there.

Well the ants on my baby apple tree were having a aphid farm! They milk them for honeydew and they chased ladybugs away. I sometimes see them on my roses too. I have lots of spiders on my roses, near damaged tips. Is the bud/tips midge or is it spider Damage? There were about a 15 baby white spiders.

This is on a unlabeled lowes sale rose so I have’t cut away the damaged buds because I was hoping to ID the rose but I guess I should cut everything away right?

Can midge pulpate on the wooden deck? would insect soap work?

Chantal:

I can’t tell from your photos. Is a portion of the bud “ sliced off”, as from a bite?

Do the sepals appear “ dried up” ( suggested by night photo), or are they red ( suggested by day photo)?

The spiders are just using the rose leaves to practice their rappelling, much as an elementary school child would use the stair railing at city hall to practice advanced skateboard technique.

Yeah, I just squish the aphids and leave the ants alone. :)

Rifis:

It looks dried.

I did change the top layer of soil of this rose as soon as I noticed it (its a potted rose) and moved it away from other roses. If this is midge they might have dropped on the wooden deck. I used insecticidal soap on the deck. A day later I saw lots of tiny flies, they looked like dust fuzzies flying and I sprayed them too with insecticidal soap.

Im planning to change the top layer of soil again today. As a last resort I had put a thick layers of pebbles in the pot, prob doesnt do much...

If this is midge I think I got it from the potted roses from Lowes... I’m so dumb, they were on sale and looked all dried out (crispy tips) had white residue on them (from spraying?) and got them to baby them back to health.

They pupate 1"-2" down so I don't think the pebbles will do much nor removing a slight bit of soil daily. unless it's 2". How many roses are affected.? I would personally apply a drench for midge only (not fertilizer etc.) adjusted for six weeks and dis-bud to avoid infecting other roses. This avoids harming the pollinators and you can reassess at that time, reapplying and dis-budding after carefully observing the new growth. I wouldn't wait around. After application cover the soil with landscape fabric or a plastic bag to prevent any currently in the soil from emerging. as the drench can take up to two weeks to enter the entire plant. I suspect it's less time in such a small cutting. You could spray also until its viable in the stems, etc. Keep the bag on so any midge from elsewhere don't take up residence. Also isolate this plant if possible.The midge will not pupate in your deck unless it's falling apart and turning to mulch.

I agree with Andre that cutting off growing tips will protect the plant, but on such a small plant that needs its leaves for growth I wonder how it will survive. You could try that as a completely organic solution along with covering the soil. LF and plastic can never work 100% in a bed as it's impossible to cover every bit of soil and there's also the grass which many branches may overhang.

While awaiting a response to my question ( above) to vaporvac ( I don’t know how to do the “@“ thing), I hunted down an old discussion which those who have not read it might enjoy. It’s not too long.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3945014/young-shoot-is-wilted#n=20

Hi Patty!

I have o go hrough all m saved sudies. I've read i in muliple places. excuse ping. my computer is going crazy.

Thank you for all this input!

rifis: thank you for the link and taking interest in this.

Moses: thank you for that write up. You wrote a similar procedure last year and I followed it twice and then the midge burn stopped. I thought I was done with it, but no.

I am not sure I understand which bayer product you are using. Any of these two?

BioAdvanced 708260D All-in-One Rose & Flower Spray Systemic Insecticide, Fungicide, Miticide, Concentrate

This one has Tau-fluvalinate and Tebuconazole.

The label says if the substance hits the bees it will be harmful. After drying, any residue on the plant will not harm.

BioAdvanced 701290B Insecticide Fungicide Miticide 3-in-1 Insect, Disease & Mite Control, Concentrate

This one has imidacloprid, Tau-fluvalinate, Tebuconazole

This ones label says the substance hitting bees will harm them and any dry residue on plants will also harm them. Cannot buy in New York.

If not, which bayer pdt?

I ask this physiology question to anyone: Say you spray a systemic (insecticide) on the growing shoots of a rose bush, those that have no buds on them. Does the systemic get absorbed and stay near where you sprayed or can travel to distant places, (via internal fluids) on that plant? I realize that may depend on the molecule and the vehicle the molecule is in. But if it can travel farther, then whether you spray on some shoots and not others becomes irrelevant.

Can someone please remind me what yellow and blue cup and oil trick is?

Thanks !

Also want to ask, why do we see deformed flowers such as above?

I think he uses the Bayer product with the neonic you named, and cyfluthrin. No antifungal.

Bayer changed its branding to obscure its particular German heritage. A curiously prescient decision in light of events in Germany the last week or two.

I believe he reported his research indicated imidacloprid topical spray was absorbed locally but did not spread to distant sites within the plant.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/world/europe/germany-military-neo-nazis-ksk.html

I want to mention something re the small holes drilled in the buds (which then droop over) which the OP described and posted pics of. I think that is another problem which I have here, which is
rose curculio beetles. They look just like ladybugs, except have no spots, and have a long black snout. They use that to poke holes in rose buds, and put in their eggs. The buds droop over, and eventually die, but stay on the plant for ages. Then they drop off, and the new beetles emerge out of the soil the next Spring. I get a paper bag, and take off every single one of the drooping buds with holes in them. Also the active beetles, which thank heavens only show up in the Spring. Their defense mechanism is to drop straight dow if disturbed, so you need to hold the open bag underneath them before you try to grab them. You will probably miss, but then they will be in the bag, which should be smushed up and put in the garbage, not the green waste can.

Jackie

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

I now have plastic under my roses but we hit insanely hot weather here in PA, dry heat over 90 degrees. The plastic condensed a lot, I’m afraid I get mold. It’s so hot my little ghislaine de feligonte might not make it while sexy rexy and iceberg are blackspot free and thriving (these normally are the worst here) Is it correct that midge doesn’t like heat? Should I remove the plastic and let them fry instead of the plastic? Do the hot states have midge?

Also (off topic) but any ideas for Ghislaine? Should I cover her with something?

I stopped seeing midge damage in my garden when I stopped spraying for pests/disease. I quit spraying in 2010 and I haven’t seen any midge damage in 7 years.

When I stopped treating roses for midge, I had almost no blooms in both NY and PA garden.

Here is the formulation I think Moses uses, katyajini. I’ve also included an article that may explain why Bayer changed their branding, given their past history. Possibly they knew this was coming. Interesting - fears that the “internal affairs” unit investigating infiltrations is itself infiltrated and compromised.

https://www.bioadvanced.com/products/rose-flower-care/dual-action-rose-flower-insect-killer

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/world/europe/germany-military-neo-nazis-ksk.html

Andre: why did you need to use your method for three years, rather than one. Or even two. The method does sound intriguing. And completely organic; very “elegant”.

Paul: what were you spraying before you stopped, and what prompted you to stop?

Katyajini,

Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer for soil and turf, Concentrate,,40 oz. bottle, 2-way formula....is what I have been using for at least 15 years.

The dilution rate is 1 tablespoon per gallon of water.

As per my method, only growing tips that have not yet made green buds the size of a garden pea are sprayed, at 10 day to 2 week intervals all season long. Shoots are sprayed as soon as they form on dead headed stems. As they extend, the top three inches of growth are sprayed, no farther down the stem, and only until a green flower bud appears that has reached the size of a garden pea. Then spraying that stem is stopped. The green bud will continue growing and bloom undamaged.

If a cluster bloomer, continue the spraying routine until the clusters of buds are all mostly garden pea sized.

Remember to spray basal breaks down at the rose bush's crown. They are extremely susceptible to midge fly damage since they grow so quickly, and as they grow, the last spraying, although systemic, the insecticide involved will not translocate to fresh growth which is very vulnerable until it is sprayed.

I hope you succeed in controlling your rose midge.

Moses

regarding midge:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/27/nyregion/seeking-a-more-vigorous-and-self-sufficient-rose-in-the-bronx.html

rifis, I ave deleted most of my papers regarding midge from my phone. I'm trying to transfer one to link it here. To my surprise, upon re-reading, it says midge can travel 100meters, which is even worse than I originally stated. It's a fly of sorts so I guess we shouldn't be surprised For those who wonder why covering their potted plants may not work 100%, it's worth noting that the larvae can pupate IN THE ROSE ITSELF, in addition to the soil.

Vapor,

Wow, I did not know that midge could pupate in the tip instead of dropping to the ground and pupating in the upper soil! What a rascal!

This would account for purchased potted roses bringing midge home to gardeners who previously did not have midge. Not only ready to emerge midge at pot soil level may be present, but others may be harbored in growing tips.

In particular, the tempting, poor looking cut rate roses sitting on the discount racks at the big retail establishments, possibly holding ready to emerge midge flies in their poorly looking growing tips, as well as at pot soil level, are a real risk. Midge could infest the home gardener's roses who purchase them, and bought them home, who never before had midge. Or, a gardener who had previously conquered midge, could reintroduce them through bargain bin roses brought home.

I think I will have midge fly nightmares tonight!

@Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA

This is exactly what happened to me, I saw discounted shriveled potted roses that I thought just needed some water and sun and brought them home. I really thought the burned tips were a watering issue, I had no idea. Now I’m battling midge grrrr.

I’m in western PA as well btw, I found this forum looking for roses for my zone and think I got many roses through reading your posts; like quietness and bolero!

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

The pupating in the rose itself is really bad news, going to cut some tiny buds right now!

Katyajini,

Upon reading my earlier response, I didn't answer your question well enough about the systemic nature of the Bayer insecticide used to control midge, here goes....

When sprayed, the plants tissue, leaves and stems, that are directly moistened by the spray, absorb the insecticide which remains effective there for about 2 weeks. However, after a spraying session is concluded, the insecticide does not protect any growth that was not touched, moistened by the spray, or the new, further continuing growth on a stem that is made after the spray session. New growth made is not protected. The insecticide does not move, translocate, to new growth. It only is absorbed by and protects what growth it directly touched and moistened, "wetted," at the time of being sprayed.

That's why a routine of 10 day to 2 week intervals of spray sessions is necessary to keep the additional growth made since the last spray session, protected. If roses are growing particularly quickly as they do during prime growing times, a 10 day spray interval may be necessary to keep up with the new unprotected growth.

Now, some rose gardeners use a soil drench or granular application of other Bayer products that are effective in controlling midge. I do not endorse them. They are so much more potent, with much heavier percentages of the insecticide in them. They do work in that they continuously protect the rose bushes by being absorbed through the roses' roots, season long. That's too much poison in my soil for my liking. Yes, it is labor saving, but to me it is unnecessarily toxic to the environment. I try to maintain minimal impact on the environment when I use insecticides.

I wish there was a truly effective organic means of controlling midge, but there is not. Until the day there is, spray conventionally is my only option.

Moses

It's uncommon, not being the main source, but has been found. Some of my bookmarks are no longer good. I have many scientific articles somewhere, but I use 2 laptops, one phone, and one pad so finding them is time consuming. Google search will not bring most of them up. Some sources say they can "only" fly 100', but that's plenty far for me. Oddly enough, it is still present on only a very few persistent roses and they are the same ones for a couple of years now.

Yes, Vapor, it seems certain varieties are favored by the midge fly. Unfortunately, Quietness is one of them!

Moses

@vaporvac. My guess is that roses with a few strong growth tips are more likely to emit the strong hormone that attracts midge, such as HT or big flower shrubs. For roses with many growth tips such as noisettes or with many small clustered flowers the hormone won’t be as concentrated on each tip thus attracting fewer midge flies. I noticed my MAC hasn’t had any midge damage on it. It hasn’t flowered but has a lot of growth tips.

Sbrklyn,

I agree with you. HTs are midge magnets. When I grew the polyantha Marie Pavie, unsprayed, the midge fly pressure on them was light. So perhaps ther scent trail is diluted and not alluring to the midge.

I also think that there is a right 'feel,' involved when a midge fly lands on a growing tip. If it does not feel right, substantial, she may fly off in search of more favorable tips.

I say this because at one time I was heavy into no-spray Hybrid Rugosas, tried over 30 varieties of HRs. The midge fly left the Hybrid Rugosas completely alone, thank the Lord! I think it was because the frilly, ferny growing tips of HRs don't 'feel,' right. Midge maggots do not eat leaves. They concentrate their eating on the tip's very center stem, as little as it is.

The texture of the many fluffy leaves may alert the midge fly that they will not provide a satisfacfory meal. ALso, the scent trail of a Rugosa cross, having rugosa genes, may hold enough Rugosa scent that midge fly is not attracted thereby. Perhaps the pure Rugosa species is not a midge fly host. I never grew the R. species.

These thoughts on Hybrid Rugosas are all only my theories, no scientific evidence just my thoughts.

Moses

Is anyone still doing the yellow or blue cups? Is it still effective?

Thank you everyone for sharing your experience.

Moses, thank you. I found the specific product you mentioned online but they wont ship to new york. How ever, the label on the both the Bayer pdts above say they work to kill rose midge. I will just go ahead and use one of those and see what happens.

I was going to ask if midge prefer certain roses? My Mari Pavie too looks completely untouched. whereas my Marchesa Bocella right next to MP is consumed by midge.

I would like to know about the cups too.

Jackie: thanks for the tip about buds an holes. I cut off all those buds.

I agree. The midge's ovipositer is a certain length and the eggs are put in the middle of the stem, so probably the thinner more delicately stemmed roses such as Marie Pavie and many other polyanthas dont' have thick enough stems to place them properly. Summer Romance and my NOID red rose, however have nice thick canes that must attract them.

Katya, which chemical are you able to use?

Moses, it is easy to adjust the concentration of the drenches to last a specific time to avoid having it active during flowering ie. 3-6 weeks vs. 3 months to a year.

Vapor, that may explain why the new roses I planted this year seem to be spared.

Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley1 hour ago

Moses, it is easy to adjust the concentration of the drenches to last a specific time to avoid having it active during flowering

Yes. Amazon sells an inexpensive mass spectrometer.

Or one could just apply basic non-compartmental pharmacokinetic analysis.

The latter could even be performed while pruning.

I got the Bayer formula but one question about spraying: I've planted salvia, speedwell, and bee balms around my roses. I cannot seem to find a good time when bees aren't around. Maybe wait until it's completely dark??? I got up early this morning and bees are already humming.

Also I have a New Dawn beside a little pond. I guess I'll have to skip that one???

@paint girl 6bNJ @Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

My bands that grew a good deal did got affected, I’m mostly worried about my New Dawn since all the ends of the long stems she was growing have burned tips now :(

I placed a quick makeshift yellow cup under her when I saw teeny tiny flies on the plastic under her. This is what I caught:

(They are very very small)

CG, those do look like tiny ovipositers! I'll see if I can find how big they are usually. I wish I could see them a bit clearer even when expanding the pic, but off-hand they look like every pic I've seen of them. That's amazing as you seem to have caught them at the right time.They are not thrips or sawfly. Landscape fabric is easier to use than plastic in general. Also, midge seem to LOVE the heat or at least they reproduce much more quickly the hotter the temps. :-((

PG, I wouldn't spray over a pond. If you used a drench would it leach into it? You wouldn't be alone, gardening in the dark, but if your roses are not in flower, the main thing is to avoid spraying the bees directly or any of the other surrounding foliage since the poison does enter the plant tissue.

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

That‘s the farthest my phone enlarges, I have to use a magnifying glass and even than i’s hard to see. Some also stuck to the olive oil (I didn’t had anything else) on the plastic sheet that had spilled And I had them on a blue lid too but my dog licked it all >_< Also they did come out from under the sheet I believe.

I ordered yellow cups, hopefully they arrive today or tomorrow, I‘m not sure if I should stick with the olive oil for now or quickly shop for something else.

I think that they emerge and hover around near the soil for a bit before they take off.

I'd stick with what's working! That's amazing especially as that's ALL you've seem to caught.

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley @rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)

Here is one ;) and its still alive too because it’s in an air pocket.

I managed to get them out of another bud without loosing the bud but later cut it anyway just to be sure.

I saw damage on a bud from another rose just today and dissected it too but didn’t see any, maybe they were still too small.

Wow Chantal! You are doing a super job!!! So the oiled yellow cups act the same as sticky yellow paper? Or is there something more the oil does?

Vap: First, lets put aside rifis mass spectrophotometer jokes :) The molecules of the systemic insecticide enter the plant from the soil. Then, depending on the metabolism of the plant and the environment, the temp for example, you know, the usual variables, the molecules will be cleared out by the plant in a determinable time interval. I dont think you can, as a gardener, influence that time interval the insecticide is in the plant. By using less insecticide you will lower the concentration of the insecticide in the plant not how long. And using too little may render it ineffective. But you may know all this already.

Also I am going to try the first Bayer pdt (above), the one without imidacloprid. this one is supposed to be able to kill off rose midge. Its crazy around here.

I was also able to procure Safari last year, recommended by ratdog. It seems very toxic so dont want to use it this year.

I am not referring to Sif Lutheran I have no idea about its half-life. I'm only talking about the mildew clothes used as a drench.. After extensive conversations with bear and chemists.

Who's is insane tonight.

I am lost

I cannot type on my phone and it does not understand what I say and there is no way to edit it. I will change it tomorrow

@Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA Thank you so much for your detailed explanation. I followed it and sprayed only emerging buds and I have healthy new growth on the roses i tried this with! Previously, I would have zero growth with all new growth turning completely brown. I did miss some and they got brown, but it made a huge difference. thank you!

All you need to do is spray the growing tips to 3-4" down, and no other parts of the bush. A 10 day to 2 week schedule should keep your roses pumping out buds that turn into blooms.

When the green bud on the growing tip is garden pea size, about 5/16" in diameter, discontinue spraying THAT tip. It is now home free. Pay careful attention to vigorous basal growths that can put on 2+" a day. Midge fly females find them irresistible.

Also, after dead heading, the new shoots emerging from the stem are targeted by midge flies, even when they are only an inch long. Spray them on your schedule until their green buds are pea size.

The nice thing about spot spraying for midge infestation is that the entire bush is not sprayed, and open blooms which were last sprayed weeks ago, with no residual spray in their systems now, or no fresh spray absorbed during the last spot spraying of growing tips only, open blooms are safe for bees to visit, and not get poisoned.

Long term effectiveness treatments, like soil insecticide granules or liquid insecticide drenches do work, but I do not recommend them. The entire bush and soil in which it is growing is toxic for the period of time the drench remains effecfive, poisoning the nectar and pollen bees harvest from open rose blooms. Also, the insecticide used is so strong that there is a noticeable odor coming from the soil all the time. If you can smell it, you are breathing it into your lungs.

Tip spraying requires the most minimal use of insecficide, and is extremely effective for me.

I wish you all success in combating midge, among the worst of the worst of rose pests.

Moses