@shead I like the house! Ignore the haters 😜😊

Have you forgotten that it's the buyer who hates the house? Are you saying she can't add some character?

Here's what Donna originally said: "Her husband chose this plan and she hates it. Hopefully an architect can help add/revise something to make her happy."

Shead also said they are building same house...

Also buyer is part of a partnership and we don’t know, because it hasn’t been clarified, what hate means.

Shead is building a variation of this house that has one gable wing, white windows, black shingled roofing and a redesigned floor plan.

Hate is usually an exaggeration like saying you're starving but it indicates extreme displeasure and should be taken seriously.

"Character" is difficult to evaluate without further information because it generally refers to a person not a house so its vague but I assume it indicates the need for serious modifications not just a different feature here or there. All I could do was offer a way to avoid some of the odd roof intersections. There's not much that can be done about the long unarticulated side elevation with the big garage doors but the giant hipped roof in the rear needs attention. Someone didn't really finish the design before putting it on the internet.

So like I said all of this is based on us making assumptions. All of us.

All design requires assumptions. You can never know enough.

The difference in this particular case is normally a poster will elaborate when pressed for more information or clarify. That hasn’t happened here so the extremes of assumptions are all over the place. No one is wrong or right on this thread.

When I said to Shead to ignore the haters, I assumed, and could be wrong, that they were mildly offended by the “sucker punch” comment...as someone who was building this home, albeit with changes.

I am the poster. No matter what I say or try to defend, I’m immediately given every reason why I shouldn’t have posted. After further clarification from the “wife” that hated the plan, I found out she hates plan as viewed and asked for advice on exterior materials and colors, color of roof, metal roof or shingles, etc. I only posted (with her permission) as a means to gather ideas for her. I apologize for being vague and hesitant to even post now but that’s how things have transpired after sharing all the comments. In fact she’s followed along and now has some ideas about how to proceed thanks for several of the comments. So, forgive me again for being vague, out of my lane or just oblivious to what this site is for but I do appreciate all the feedback, nonetheless.

Donna so correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like she wants non structural, easy exterior, changes? Her idea of character is to add colour etc not to redesign the layout?

Neither are wrong! Both can happen. Really all of it is fine. If someone wants to focus on little changes that’s okay and if they like parts of the house but want to change a ton that’s also okay.

As mentioned by a few people not everyone can do a full custom build but I suspect most people do find ways to make any home their own. 😊

You should be more careful about calling someone a "hater". Its a very rude word to use on an internet forum.

I believe shead's house is the variation with one wing that's separated from the main house by a connector that allows a wrap-around farmers porch. It doesn't have any misaligned roof ridges, roof wedgies or blank holes from black windows. Its character is unadulterated Folk Victorian with a small connected barn. The only thing I would change is the nested gable but its only one and not a major distraction and i doubt shead would be offended by that suggestion.

What needs to be done to the house in question is to push the wings farther away from the main house or make them into stronger features, distinguish them from each other, clean up the roof intersections, fix the misaligned ridges and ditch the black window frames (black window sash are OK).

Window sash in the Victorian era were often painted dark colors even black but the perimeter trim overlapped the "frame" so all that was visible was the 1 1/2" sash. Today window trim is placed outside of the frame and the width of the frane plus the sash can be 2 1/2" to 3 1/2" wide. When that much of the window is black the appearance can be a bit too much especially in a white wall.

A traditional window with black sash.

I'm actually building this version:

So no, it's not exactly the same but the things that were criticized most harshly about the OP's exterior (the middle part) do apply to mine as well :/ That's why I said it felt like a sucker punch. We did eliminate the misaligned roof ridges except for the one in the middle, but it's hipped down to the meet the top ridge and really isn't that noticeable. The others would've driven me bonkers with bird nests and wasp nests. We did add a long shed dormer to the right side as well to break up the long expanse of roof and to allow dormers into the two bonus area bedrooms. That helped a TON!

@Jenn Robinson, whatever the client does, I hope she LOVES it :)

Pretty content with my use of the word. According to dictionary.com

a person who has an intense dislike for another person or thing (often used in combination): I'm a big hater of opera. Are you a dog-hater? Informal. a person who thrives on showing hate toward, criticizing, or belittling other people or things, usually unfairly: The guy is just a hater, looking for a fight.

Lots of comments showed intense dislike for the home, and criticized it, possibly unfairly.

I have to agree with Virgil in: "Wow! What a thread!"

At the time of this comment's posting, the "Best Answer" is provided by the OP.

For the record, I didn't make the comment that shead said felt like a sucker punch. It was obviously inappropriate but it was apparently meant as a joke by a highly valued member. And its not the only joke that was treated as offensive. The forum seems to have become more sensitive, melodramatic and less fun but I guess its better than fearing the tea cups.

No one ever said you did! shead has clarified already they felt there were criticisms that were like a sucker punch. No one said one comment stung more than others.

Some comments are meant to answer a question, some comments are meant to be a joke, and some comments are meant to stimulate the mind (even if it is only my mind that gets the stimulation). 🤪

It's the internet.. Not for the faint of heart. : )

Or for anyone expecting appreciation for answering questions from those who come here looking for help.

The forum used to be about building a house but its become all about choosing paint colors and cladding.

The realtor's client should come on the forum and take her turn in the barrel for being critical of a house design.

RES it is about building a house. If someone builds this house they’ve received tons of info on easy changes, landscape ideas, bigger changes that still keep the house mostly as is and even bigger ideas that question if this house is a good house. There is no one way to build a house and some people are building a tract home and can make little changes, some want a plan to then be modified and some can build custom. There should be room for all of those options on a home forum.

Well...after all that, it seems to me the issue here, is that "...more character...." hasn't been defined. Neither the OP or the home owner have really taken the time to explain and define what "more character" means in this case.

A late posting noted that the owner "hated the plan and was looking for exterior changes..."

That's about as confusing as an architectural comment could be. Hating the plan suggests reviewing and modifing the plan. Looking for exterior changes suggests changing the external rouge and mascara.

The two don't compute. They aren't the same thing.

I liked the comment about suits. If you don't like the suit hanging on the rack, look for another suit. Don't try to change pin stripes into plaid.

Virgil I think it’s an issue in wording. What does character mean? What about personality? What does the average person think looks good vs someone in design? It’s all complicated

My kids are both college age now and I am finally on the other side of every house we bought being for their benefit.

I have lived in many poorly designed homes because other factors in my life prevented me from pursuing good design. It happens to most of us.

There are many reasons the best house for someone may not be perfect. There is nothing wrong with asking about ideas to make it just a bit more visually appealing rather than asking that the design problem be solved.

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"I liked the comment about suits. If you don't like the suit hanging on the rack, look for another suit."

The comment about suits is incorrect though, if you like the fabric of a suit most other things can be changed. Every off the rack suit I buy has to be recut. Typically they completely disassemble the entire suit below the arms, recut it, and remake it. Occasionally, I have had the entire suit remade, shoulders lapel and all. Good suits are designed to be recut. You are supposed to adjust the suit to fit , pants should always be recut, coats can be tailored or recut.

There is a certain irony to this analogy on this thread. A lot of people don't see the value in spending $350 to recut a $350 suit, but that is how you end up with a suit that wears like a $2,000 suit for $700.

Do you really think this guy got this regular fit suit to fit like it was bespoke by looking harder?

Yes but when a thread contains $375,000 worth of free advice it throws the math off.

(remember my stimulation comment)

Well, you don’t like my suit analogy. Sorry. I had no idea it could be that involved buying from a standard store.

Actually, I think your analogy is good, even if not quite the way you intended it. Is your life going to change now that you know that an off the rack suit can look a lot better if you spend another $250 to $400 getting it remade to fit you better? Maybe the owner doesn't need to know the ins and outs of good design to enjoy their home. Maybe the home can be customized enough to make them happy by changing the color or adding a few things that the builder may be willing to add. Essentially, just like you and your suits.

By the way, I believe you are right outside Memphis. I assure you that any place that rents tuxedos such as Men's Wearhouse has tailors who regularly recut suits. Additionally, there are several bespoke tailors in Memphis who can recut a suit.

ETA: Yes I have way too many suits. It is a problem...

It appears some of the members think of a house as a consumer purchase like buying a suit. I think a house should be much more than that, even a form of personal expression or, forgive me, art.

It appears some of the members think of a suit as a consumer purchase. I think a suit should be much more than that, even a form of personal expression or, forgive me, art.

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While I made this comment tongue in cheek there is a long history which one might base that on. I find it shocking that anyone would believe houses are a better form of personal expression than clothes. For several thousand years clothes have been an outward expression of identity. There is an overwhelming amount of support for the idea of clothing is an expression of social identity, personal identity, and self worth. That connection between identity and housing is much different and not as profound.

Imagine my surprise that an architect feels that home design is of paramount importance. Before you know it nutritionists will think diet is of paramount importance, actors will think entertainment is of paramount importance, musicians will believe music is of paramount importance, accountants will think financial security is of paramount importance, chefs may note the paramount importance of a well prepared meal, veterinarians will note the paramount importance of our pets, etc. I could go on all day long, but all you are demonstrating is a self worth mechanic. Anyone who is passionate about what they do believes what they do matters, and most believe it matters more than most people realize.

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Home design matters, but it is not of paramount importance, it is not even of paramount importance in homes! If we had to rank the top four things in picking a home an overwhelming majority would rank them as (1) location, (2) location, (3) location, (4) design. For a time I lived in a 100 year old walk-up one room efficiency with a tiny wet bath (a tiny bathroom in a shower basically), which had a five minute walk to work. Each morning I woke up with the most spectacular view of the Eiffel Tower. There were French pastries and sidewalk cafés all around me. I understand that some believe they know what is right for me without even knowing me, and I am sure they will try to preach how much happier my life would have been if I had an hour commute from a well designed home, but I am not buying it.

This is not to say that I don't find home design important and valuable, which is why I often discuss the entire value proposition of good design, but that value proposition is a personal choice.

Bry you really hit the nail on the head with this comment. The crux of all this is how we individually value things. Love it.

I've been on the forum for 15 years and helped countless members with difficult issues for free both on the forum and privately. It was once a special place for discussing the design and construction of houses but it's become a wasteland of rehashed cliches and lowest common denominator thinking. The current crop of ankle biters remind me of Manhattan42 and I hope they will eventually leave as he did..

I take a break every few years and one is overdue.

RES why when someone has a different opinion than you or a different perspective even do you talk down to them so greatly? Why can’t some people want to make minor changes and work with tract homes they can afford while others go wild with custom? Trends exist fo a reason, plans are popular for a reason. Doesn’t make it cliches and lowest common denominator thinking but makes it appeal to the broader group and accessible for more home buyers. You clearly have architectural expertise and that’s amazing but not everyone can take it on and that’s okay too. For those willing and able to hear you what a gift but no need to diminish those who can’t afford it, don’t want it, or are just going down a different path.

I spend a decent amount of time advocating for good design and discussing the entire value proposition of a well designed house. I do believe that people often get the value proposition wrong by focusing too much on the initial outlays rather than the lifetime benefits of a well designed home. However, that doesn't mean people are wrong for choosing a different value proposition.

There are too many "pro's" on this site who believe their credentials give them free reign to judge the decisions made by other people. Who believe that their certification comes with a right of absolute declaration. Houses are a life decision, a financial decision and a design decision. RES, you are an architect and I respect your input on design, but that doesn't give you license to judge life decisions or financial decisions.

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The root of the problem here is not the criticism of the design, it is the criticism of the people who chose the design. The OP is not wrong for asking for help, the OP is not wrong for leaving the problem so open, and mostly they did nothing to deserve the judgment.

AS, so you are saying that a professional's education, training and experience are of no value? That the forum's purpose and value is simply a place for conversation by consumers?

Do you really believe that there is no value in learning and expanding one's awareness and knowledge of architecture and good design principles and technique?

Silly me...all along I though the value of this site for conversation was to learn, to attempt to do things better, to look for ways to go beyond shelter and simply keeping the rain out.

And Bry...of course location is important. But if your Paris flat was so great why aren't you still there enjoying all the benefits you describe? The answer, I'll guess, is because your life style changed and you have learned a great deal more about design which influenced your thinking and decision making when it comes to where/how to live. As a university professor I suspect you know something about the value of increasing one's knowledge on a variety of subjects, including architecture.

Thanks guys for putting me straight about the purpose of this forum.

A S, you're still mad that I said there's no no cute in architecture which was a joke and you went postal on Mark for his joke. If design is not such a big deal why do you get your back up and berate me for offering my opinion?

But if your Paris flat was so great why aren't you still there enjoying all the benefits you describe?

Mostly I am stuck in America now or I would be there...

The answer, I'll guess, is because your life style changed and you have learned a great deal more about design which influenced your thinking and decision making when it comes to where/how to live.

No, my life took me to another area and then another area and then another area, etc. I just spent the last twenty years deciding where I was going to live based on what school district it was in and what opportunities were available for my children. Most of that time in poorly designed old homes that backed up to parks in great school districts.

For the first time in my life I am building a truly original architect designed home, (the farm was designed by an architect but for my father). None of those decisions were wrong, I always understood the value of good design but it never created sufficient value for my family until after my kids were grown. Is that wrong?

"The OP is not wrong for asking for help, the OP is not wrong for leaving the problem so open, and mostly they did nothing to deserve the judgment."

It was the OP's client who criticized the house design to begin with. How can you fault me for accepting her judgement and trying to help improve the design? Saying she hates the design didn't sound to me like she didn't like the cladding or the colors. Was I wrong? Can I not interpret the OP's request.? Are you the final arbiter of such things? Who is being judgmental? This seems more like a personal vendetta against me and its uncalled for.

It was the OP's client who criticized the house design to begin with. How can you fault me for agreeing with them and trying to help them improve the design?

Can you please point me to where I did this?

This seems more like a personal vendetta against me and its uncalled for.

That is simply not true. I have a significant amount of respect for you in your profession, I said nothing specifically about your ability, your input on design or your trying to help. I just responded to the idea that a crowdsourced idea must have specific guidance. Which I let drop when you asked that we agree to disagree even though you mischaracterized my point.

I think you are being a bit strict with your interpretation of "hate" and further, as mentioned, I think that is largely irrelevant. The reasons that someone buys a house, even one they hate, may be viable and thus an attempt at even minor or superficial improvement is also practical.

"The OP is not wrong for asking for help, the OP is not wrong for leaving the problem so open, and mostly they did nothing to deserve the judgment."

To what judgement were you referring?

I am stepping away a bit for necessity and I also suspect we are well past the productive point here.

I assure you if you believe their is anything vindictive or any personal attack in my comments, you are reading them in a way that there were not intended. I suspect we disagree on the relative value of home design, which is much different than saying I don't value your perspective, just that we have much different perspectives.

I get it. "we have much different perspectives." and yours is acceptable and mine isn't.

I would normally have a discussion about a subject like this by email instead of on the forum where certain people can be depended upon to constantly critique of my comments and derail any productive process. I thought that would happen when the OP said her client was monitoring the thread. When she chose to not contact me I should have dropped it. That was a mistake.

OP - if you're still hanging around, Shead's version has the metal awning with wood supports, wood porch pillars, and wooden front door. The wood softens it up and provides 'character' so it's not all white. If that's what the client is needing, suggest more wood elements, a couple of varying height pots of flowers near the door, and perhaps a wooden rocker or two or wooden bench on the porch.

Thank you so much! And yes! This is exactly the route she taking and starting to love that look more and more! Thank you for the feedback!

Virgil, if read my comment again you will see I do value experts. I in fact was clear that it’s great to have them and that for many custom design is an option . There is however also space for those that want to make minor changes and not take on massive projects. This forum should service the full range of homeowners and support them.

RES I am not berating you in the least. You are completely misreading my comments. If you think that me agreeing with Shead about the sucker punch comment is going postal that’s pretty wild. You are so connected to architecture that it appears anyone who veers from your way of thinking is attacking you. I believe there is space on these forum for serious design and superficial.

I really do have to step away soon, but...

"I get it. "we have much different perspectives." and yours is acceptable and mine isn't."

Well I literally have a PhD focused in project analysis, you know... things like behavioral economics, net present value, opportunity costs, marginal value, marginal cost...

I am sure that architects spend years studying to develop their perspective on value also. So, to answer your question honestly, I don't know anything about design, but I do believe I have the upper hand when we move to value discussions and can hold my own in process analysis.

So, hating the design was about the color of the posts?

Perhaps Donna can elaborate but I’m inferring from follow up comments she made that hate could have possibly been the wrong word and that there is/was enough the home owner found valuable and that what they really wanted was to tweak a few things. I believe she referenced colour and roof materials for example.

"Her husband chose this plan and she hates it. Hopefully an architect can help add/revise something to make her happy."

Well, I guess I was a sucker for that appeal for help. It won't happen again.

But RES you didn’t offer anything wrong! If they had wanted what they asked for your help would have been perfect. In this case, especially based on additional comments, it seemed the hoe was for less. But that’s okay isn’t it?

Traps are everywhere.

Uh...is it too late for the OP or owner to define "character"...? A little? A lot? Inside? Outside? Hate?

Houzz is famous (or infamous) for posters to make confusing, insufficient postings and to not clarify or add needed information. More than once, various responders asked for clarification.

Is it any wonder this discussion went off the rails...?

Not a pro. Just chiming in - I really like the yellow version sketch of RES, particularly because it simplifies the roof. I don't know if that's a change a builder will agree to in their plan. Donna, good for you to help out buyer and staying with this long contentious thread!

I know it is not the way a home should be designed and all, but... https://www.arcbazar.com/

Some here are critical and mad at other posters for voicing their suggestions and call them haters and rude and dismissive and yada, yada.

Let them leave.

The rest of us should stay.