Changes in the US -- Post-Covid, Post-Depression?

chisue

I see estimates that about 6% of Americans currently have Covid-19. Dr. Michael Osterholm (U of MN immunologist) has said the pandemic will end when 60-70% of us have immunity -- naturally or via a vaccine -- something that is unlikely to be widely available for more than a year. Is a Depression certain? What other changes do you envision?


Covid-19 is 'culling' the elderly (with and without underlying health issues) and Americans all ages (primarily with issues like obesity/diabetes). Minorities are disproportionately affected. There are immediate and longer-term effects.


In addition to a financial debacle due to the overall contraction of commerce, won't there also be some narrowly-focused changes? Won't there be a meaningful decline in elderly and health-compromised Americans? Fewer recipients of Social Security and Medicare? Fewer medical procedures on aging bodies, hospitals, nursing homes? Perhaps there will be more younger people with ongoing issues related to having been infected with the virus.


Will more people work remote from office buildings? How will 'business' change? How will roads and mass transit be affected? Will there be less air travel for business?


Will there be less discretionary income for tourism, restaurants, entertainment? Will fewer people marry, have children? Hobbies, pets, *charity*? Foreclosures, bankruptcies? Tax delinquencies? (Even more) enormous federal debt?


Rerun of the Great Depression? Disasters? Improvements? What do you see -- in general and specific changes?





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queenmargo

What do I see..... I see, the left ramping up the doom and gloom until election day. Should Biden win, the media and the left will magically become silent and the left will blame Trump for everything that Biden does wrong. If Trump wins the hate will continue.

I don't care how much the left hates me, I do not want the anarchist left to take back the White House.

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chisue

QueenM -- Wow. Never crossed my mind. I guess you see what you look for.

Do you doubt there will be huge societal changes due to Covid-19? (It has no politics.)

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queenmargo

I have no doubt, there ARE huge societal changes due to Covid-19.

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queenmargo

Do you doubt there will be huge societal changes due to Covid-19? (It has no politics.)

You must have missed how the left gave the protesters, rioters, looters, vandals, murderers a pass for not wearing masks? We know Covid-19 has no politics, but the left politicians don't get that.

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lurker111

I really don't think we have anything to worry about. The riots proved that you can do anything with a scarf over your face and you'll be fine. You can wear the mask for a couple of days before you need to wash it. No problemo.

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chisue

All masks in my neck of the woods. All peaceful protests here, too. Now...about the changes you predict, please?

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Nana H

"You must have missed how the left gave the protesters, rioters, looters, vandals, murderers a pass for not wearing masks?"

I sure did. I don't recall one single liberal here condone the non wearing of masks at the protests, mind you my recollection is that almost all the peaceful protesters did wear masks.

I also don't recall one single liberals poster condoning the violent rioters much less the fact they didn't wear masks. As mater of fact quite the opposite. I also don't believe that the liberals here who are supporting a Biden election and an ouster of Trump are anarchists.Nor would they vote for an anarchist.

Of course if I missed them you can always point me to the specific posts.

edited

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queenmargo

I can see that for every store that closes a new start up will take its place. Those who are creative, and determined will find ways to adapt and improve their way of doing business. Buffets, and bulk bin, salad bars, help yourself sampling, etc. will have to find a new approach to their audience. I can see serving "family style" to replace buffets for those that like the "all you can eat".

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HamiltonGardener

I see more businesses taking advantage of work from home situations in the future. They can save money on office space, and many employees are able to work remotely.

But, I really don’t see that as a good thing. While there are benefits to working from home, commuting times, etc., I see the social isolation having a large effect on the mental health of employees. Some people can handle it, and small stretches. Very few people are able to work from home constantly and not feel the social isolation. For many more people, the satisfaction they get from their job, in some part, relies on the social interaction of their work environment. Coworkers become like family members.

if it continues, get ready to start spending a lot more money on mental health issues. Humans were meant to be social animals.

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queenmargo

Of course if I missed them you can always point me to the specific posts.

Nana- where did I say in my comment that I was speaking of the left posters on HT? I thought we spoke in general, not about HT posters? I mentioned the left politicians, so who is a politician on this forum with your thinking?

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lurker111

I went through the bank yesterday. We have a mask law here. I was the only one honoring it. I didn't see anyone else driving with a mask. There was one Hispanic family walking down the sidewalk, they were wearing masks. A family with 4 kids, the oldest was probably around 10. Town was dead. The only traffic was at the bank, which is closed. The ATM is open.

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Nana H

OK. well I guess then the liberals here are special liberals not those other liberals you are referring to.

I also don't recall any liberal leader supporting the non wearing of masks NOR any condoning of the rioters actions.

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Nana H

It is easy to forget but when one edits a post one should indicated they did so.

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queenmargo

What I am seeing is a BOOM in home renovation in my area. I mean major home expansion. What the travel and tourism is losing, the construction business is winning. I am seeing massive amounts of people walking, and biking. The nurseries packed with cars buying gardening plants and accessories.

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Marigold

One worry I have is the post viral fatigue that many younger Covid patients report. I have heard an estimate that as many as 1/10 afflicted could have the syndrome. If that leads to Myalgic encephalomyelitis, as post viral syndromes often do, that could take millions out of the workforce for life. Not good.

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queenmargo

It is easy to forget but when one edits a post one should indicated they did so.

Could you post where that is in the rules of engagement.

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lurker111

You support them by supporting their party and defending their actions. The democrats are the party that is doing all the damage. These people are the new face of the DNC. The old democrats no longer have a voice. If you don't support them then it's time to wake up and find a different party with a different message. You must come out against the propaganda and stand for what you know is right.

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chisue

Thanks to those who have not 'derailed' and offered their thoughts about long-ranging effects.

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Stan Areted

I don't think there will be many changes that will make much difference.

Society changes gradually, and my observations is that a rather large shift happens about every 8-10 years, in politics, in social mores, in industry, in retail, in wholesale, in technology, in habits, in style, clothing, choices, interests.

I think people have COVID on the brain too much because they aren't enjoying their lives and they are fearful. I think people have become too controlling about what other people do.

I think Covid will be a memory and a story in just a few years, for the most part.


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queenmargo

Why is everything a "derail" when it does not suit their fancy?

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Nana H

I expect to see major changes especially changes that will exploit the internet..

More work from home, decrease in commercial real estate, increase in on line shopping as well as curb side/ in store pickup.

Education will see the expansion of online learning and staggered schools years. Hopefully there will be an expansion in telemedicine.

The biggest one in the US may be a move towards universal health care......maybe.

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Kitchenwitch111

I do not want the anarchist left to take back the White House.

That's pretty ironic since it's the Republican Party that wants to destroy the government.

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kidshop

Social isolation will be a big problem, especially for kids not in school since March and they may not go back at all, or on a reduced schedule. Anyone who is slightly skewed towards anxiety is like to have that sort of thing ramped up...agoraphobia, social anxiety, OCD, extreme fear of other people and their cooties reinforced constantly now. ( the germs are going to kill you and everyone else!) I think it is going to be devastating if we have to mostly stay home for a year or more.


distance learning is not as effective for most kids. Ours was a joke for the last half of last year. No new material, no grades. It just stopped. If these kids have to give up a year plus of education they are going to be seriously behind forever. There is no catching up. That is depressing!

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chisue

Will we lose enough Seniors to impact society? Socially? Economically?



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patriciae_gw(07)

We Americans have a habit of looking at the world from our small perspective. I think we need to realize this is a global problem for a start. The entire world is taking the same hit we are. Because we are all interconnected it is going to take a global approach, not this particular administration's strength. Not wanting to be globally connected isn't going to fix anything by the way. What is is.

I am not so sure the young are going to find working from home as isolating as older people. They have been raised on cyber/virtual communicating. It just means you aren't in a cubicle all day. Was that ever a source of meaningful socialization? then you have the group of young together all focuses on their phones. Different world.

Economy wise, we will recover. The economy of Europe recovered after the Black Death. Each time.

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deegw

chisue, I think the thread topic is very interesting. We are having a societal upheaval in the middle of a pandemic. In hindsight, the financial crisis seems quaint compared to what is going on right now.

The pandemic has exposed our nation's weaknesses. A central government that is more concerned about business than citizens. An inadequate patchwork of education and healthcare that allows many to slip through the cracks.

There are some things that I hope happen as a result of all of this but I don't really see the path yet.


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HamiltonGardener

Chisue,

In places where the virus runs unchecked and precautions are not adequate, the numbers of seniors and immune compromised people who die will have a noticeable effect on society. The resources consumed for their care (money, time, space) are substantial. Not just by the government, but the family as well.

In India, there has been some articles about the burden of caring for elders will be lifted from families if they die en masse.

America has the jokes about ”Boomer Remover”, and what it may mean for the ability of younger generations to get into the housing market or job market.

Not to mention the amount of wealth tied up world wide by the older generation and what that might mean for the ones inheriting it.

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HamiltonGardener

I am not so sure the young are going to find working from home as isolating as older people. They have been raised on cyber/virtual communicating. It just means you aren't in a cubicle all day. Was that ever a source of meaningful socialization? then you have the group of young together all focuses on their phones. Different world.


Patricia,

Social isolation increased by cyber/virtual communication is being cited as one of the causes of the skyrocketing rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide among younger generations. Just because they are used to living with “virtual” friends doesn’t mean it’s healthy for them.


And to the comment about work not being a source of meaningful socialization... That is an ongoing problem. For people who can make friends at work/school and have good relationships with coworkers or fellow students, it is a very healthy situation. Those people tend to love their work and enjoy going to work. Many have friendships and socialization with coworkers outside of the work environment.


Other people have bad relationships at work, toxic work environments. Those situations can also lead to loneliness, depression, and anxiety. It is also socially isolating. Anyone in that situation should be looking for a different job as soon as possible.

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Nana H

You are either suited for WAH or you are not. There are a myriad of reasons why one is or one isn't suited. It' s quite complex with many factors to consider.

My very strong opinion, having extensive experience in managing a relatively large workforce , is both the job and the person must have the right attributes and that includes environment.

ETA. I was a lousy candidate for work at home.

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bpath reads banned books too(5b)

Chisue, I worry that the next thing to fall will be office real estate. Some people I’ve talked with say their businesses are realizing they don’t need everyone in the office, every day, and can shrink their leased space and save money, by having only 2/3 or or less of their employees in at any given time.

In exchange, I wonder if there will be an increase in co-working spaces in the neighborhoods and suburbs. For when you are working from home, but can’t be working in the house for a few hours, but you can’t talk on the phone at the library.

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Ann

"What I am seeing is a BOOM in home renovation in my area. I mean major home expansion. What the travel and tourism is losing, the construction business is winning. I am seeing massive amounts of people walking, and biking. The nurseries packed with cars buying gardening plants and accessories."

Me too! Tons of home renovations going on. My neighborhood is going crazy with projects, painting, etc.! I'm getting new carpet, so I'm in that mix of getting projects done. My kids also have home projects underway. Lots of walking and biking here too but CO tends to have quite a bit of that in general.

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docmom_gw(5)

I predict a significant and prolonged economic depression, especially in the USA, due to decreased activity in tourism, restaurant use, sports attendance, extracurricular school activities, theatric and other performing arts attendance, etc. Also, given the recent dramatic resurgence of COVID-19 infections in the US, it is very likely that travel within the US and from the US to other countries will be severely restricted (and very wisely so). As evidence mounts that exposure to and infection with the virus do not produce immunity, it is becoming more likely that the restrictions we have been facing will (and should) continue for a long time. Even if a vaccine is developed, chances are that it will not provide prolonged protection. From what I understand currently, that antibodies to the virus only last a few months. So, even an annual immunization (similar to the “flu shot”) would not be adequate protection.

If travel is restricted, I would also think that shipping of goods will/should also be limited. It would make sense that consumption of more regionally local goods should increase, rather than depend on goods from distant countries. There has already been a huge increase in vegetable gardening—presumably as people try to become less dependent on our “traditional” food network. It would be wonderful for the environment if we were to “revert” to more locally produced and seasonal foods. Fashion should also take a back seat to function. Why do we need to color our hair, wear makeup, and wear 14 different outfits? Not so long ago, folks had a Sunday suit for church and then an outfit or two for work. And those clothes were built to last. We won’t probably get back to that, but maybe somewhere in between that and what we’ve become accustomed to.

The loss of significant numbers of elderly and immunocompromised members of society will probably effect the healthcare economy both positively (decreased use) and negatively (fewer jobs). It’s hard to know how that complex system will respond. It will also effect the greater economy in a similar fashion.

I do hope that we will see much more telemedicine options, especially for the elderly and frail. It never made sense to me that we make our most feeble patients go out in all weather, usually needing a family member to take time off work to accompany them, when 90% of the diagnosis and treatment of illnesses is based on the verbal history a patient can provide. Have a nurse or medical assistant visit the patient to take vital signs and draw blood, if necessary. A virtual visit with the physician is adequate, especially if the nurse can perform a guided exam under the virtual direction of the physician. Certainly, traditional medical interactions currently have some advantages, but I bet we will quickly develop methods of gathering important information that will provide excellent quality care.

Those are my thoughts, off the top of my head. It will be fascinating to see where our world is headed. It is scary, from an individual standpoint. But, this is just a blip in the larger history of humanity and our earth.

Martha

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Nana H

Ann, good to hear that Colorado, or at least your part of Colorado, isn't being as hard hit with job and economic loss as other areas are.

47 M, I think that was the last count. now unemployed. Several States seeing huge spikes and stalling or rolling back openings. Bars and restaurants closing down again.

Could it be we are into a situation where the have and have not States will be amplified?

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Ann

Looking over the OP -

I don't expect a depression.

No doubt we've lost many elderly citizens, especially in nursing homes. But, from that, I don't expect too big of a decline in that population as once someone reaches the point of a nursing home they typically don't have years of life left. So, while many of these lives were cut short, I would think it might typically be by months to a year rather than multiple years.

I agree with HG that more work from home situations will become the norm. While that will be a good fit for some jobs and some people, I think it will be hard on others.

Overall, I think things will return to mostly normal. If Trump is reelected, I think the economy will come back in a strong way. If Biden is elected, I think the economy will be a very different story.

I expect travel will be brisk, as soon as different travel aspects open. I think the same of restaurants.

I expect face masks will be far more normal in the U.S. from now on, as they have been in other countries and cultures beginning years ago.

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Ann

"Why is everything a "derail" when it does not suit their fancy?"

SOOOOO true! Kind of like anyone daring to discuss David Dorn instead of George Floyd (even though they were both black men who were murdered at close to the same time), or anyone daring to discuss all the rioting and correctly pointing out that peaceful protests grew to be FAR from reality, or anyone daring to talk about statues being pulled down (well over a hundred now) when Dems want to focus on one that was being removed per the decision of elected officials.

DO NOT MESS WITH THE DEM NARRATIVE! SHAME, SHAME, SHAME! The truth of these times simply must be sugar coated with their narrative - and there is no harm or violence being done by Dems, within blue cities, by BLM, etc. - nope, none!

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Ann

"Social isolation will be a big problem, especially for kids not in school since March and they may not go back at all, or on a reduced schedule."

I just read an article yesterday that Denver schools will return to in-person and 5 days a week for the fall semester. I thought this was excellent news. I think kids need their school environment!

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chisue

Re: Derail. This was not a *political* post. There is no need to introduce or continue to flog partisan politics. The virus has no 'party'.

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Ann

"Could it be we are into a situation where the have and have not States will be amplified?"

Hmmm, I guess I don't know what you mean about have and have not states? What do you mean by that? What is an example of a have state and a have not state?

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Nana H

If you do not know the difference between the have and have not States , I sure as heck will not be the one to explain it to you. I will leave that to your fellow Americans.

Edited

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Marigold
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I hope that there's political will to re-examine and reconfigure our health care system, including care for the elderly and disabled.

I hope that previous federal pandemic response plan is reinstated, and improved, if needed, based on the events we're living now. Supply chains should be studies to reduce reliance on imports for critical medical needs.

I hope that the essential workers who are under appreciated in "normal" times will continue to receive the recognition and renumeration that they now have.

The economy will need years to adjust to our new reality, and our elected officials will need to realize they need the public trust for the country to go forward. On the federal level, regaining the nation's trust will be a difficult journey.

So we will be facing a prolonged pandemic, a widely supported social movement calling for societal change, prolonged economic troubles, most probably further inequality of wealth distribution, and massive political divisions within the country which produce racism and bigotry, authoritarianism, anti-science and anti-education bias.

I'm not hopeful that this will be anything other than difficult times ahead.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Much hinges on the extent to which immunity lasts and can be conferred. That is still a major unknown.

Without the immense amount of government stimulus payments thus far provided, and soon to expire, the number falling into poverty in the U.S. would have already increased by roughly 33%, to 16% as opposed to the current 12%. What happens when the stimulus payments stop? Twenty million people, at least, are unemployed, with few prospects of being re-employed until the virus is under control and a full economy can resume. What is going to happen with them? Where does that leave an economy where roughly 65% is based on consumption?

Many states are planning to have students only attend class half-time, as that is the only way to social-distance within existing facilities. How do parents manage that and still work? Even then, as approximately 20% of teachers are high-risk for Covid-19, there is probably going to be problems with having enough instructors.

If a vaccine is feasible, a lot of this might be remedied, but slowly, and, as I said at the beginning, that is a big "if".

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Annie Deighnaugh

I just read an article about how tele-medicine could change dr visits for a long time to come, esp for those who have no insurance. Also how hospital to hospital transmission of info esp for those who can run central monitoring stations for ICUs and such without needing people present to gown up could make patient care more efficient.

DH just showed me an article in the WSJ how manufacturers are taking advantage of this new environment to drastically reduce their product offerings to help with manufacturing/marketing/inventory costs. I mean pro-namel toothpaste doesn't really need to offer 7 different kinds when 3 or 4 will do.

I also think that zoom will have a drastic impact on how things are done in terms of allowing small businesses, like my line dance teacher, to suddenly go national in her class offering vs. at best being a county-wide market before covid.

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maifleur03

I noticed the comment above about needing a family member to go to the doctor with an elder it is interesting as there are a growing number of people similar to after WWI who simply have either no family left at all or so distant that they do not count. If the virus is as wide spread as it is expected to be with the number of middle aged people either dying or themselves needing long term health care there may become a greater reliance on senior care.

As far as schooling for most it will be go to school and hope whatever disease you acquire you will live. In my mother's generation children whose parents could afford the expense sent their children to boarding schools to protect them. My early college friends were often missionary children who had spend most of their childhood away from their parents because of the diseases that were rampant in Asia and Africa. I knew people from central and south American countries but they never spoke of their education.

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Ann

"If you do not know the difference between the have and have not States , I sure as heck will not be the one to explain it to you. I will leave that to your fellow Americans."

I still wonder what Nana meant. Nana, did you mean GDP by state, per the comment of another poster?

We might have some very wealthy people living in states like CA and NY, but the cost of living in a city like San Francisco is outrageous, homelessness is a terrible issue, and people are leaving CA in large numbers. Nana, would you consider that a "have" state.

Then, consider a state like Wyoming or Idaho. We also have some very wealthy people living in states like that, but often on enormous ranches with loads of wide open space. Taxes are low, cost of living is low, money goes a very long way toward the purchase of a really nice home, etc.

Which is a have state and which is a have not state?

Nana, I'm not sure my fellow Americans will be jumping into explain your comment as I expect my fellow Americans might be confused as I am. I'm hoping you'll elaborate on your own comment.

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maifleur03

Couple of more things. Some of those deaths in senior housing were not in the nursing home areas but in independent and assisted areas both of which people can live extended lives.

I can see where food will become scarce in the US and probably Canada simply because while people are planting gardens people are not aware enough and/or knowledgeable to know how to store and preserve food so that it will be safe to eat. Then there are the shifting of farm properties.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I'm not confused by the have-and-have-not states reference.

In fact, this very issue has been discussed many times in this forum; states with highest GDPs, federal income taxes paid by residents of the states, federal funds received by states.

As has often been noted, generally the so-called blue states pay more into the US Treasury than the red states, while red states generally draw more federal monies than they pay in.

In the case of California, we pay more to the Treasury than we receive -- and that's counting all the military bases here (Army, AF, Navy, Marines) and the national laboratories funded by the feds.


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Ann

Nancy, is CA a have state, in your opinion?

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Nana H

It doesn't take a genius to look at average incomes, unemployment rates, welfare rates , average education levels, crime levels and health outcomes to sort out what States are enjoying higher standards of living than others. But be darned if I will do that work for you .

Edited

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Ziemia(6a)

Not confused by Nana's comment. Not at all. The topic comes up frequently enough.

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Ann

Income and cost of living are very linked. What an income of $100,000/year will buy for a person living in rural Wyoming vs a person living in San Francisco - are night and day.

I didn't look up unemployment yet but I did look up rate (not number) of homeless. DC is #1, NY is #3, and CA is #5. Mississippi and Louisiana are the lowest in rate of homelessness. What would that say to you about a have and have not state?


https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/homelessness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-2020/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2tbL7oyj6gIVEfDACh2OrAuJEAAYASAAEgK6QPD_BwE

Then, I investigated states with the most income inequality. Here are the top 5 and I'm wondering what that says about have and have not states to you?


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/us-states-with-the-highest-levels-of-income-inequality.html

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Nana H

Helen..no worries. Thank you for providing facts.

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Ann

Nana, you mentioned unemployment. Here are the 10 states with the highest unemployment rates (Forbes). Are these have not state?

"The ten states with the highest unemployment rates are Nevada (28.2%), Michigan (22.7%), Hawaii (22.3%), Rhode Island (17%), Indiana (16.9%), Ohio (16.8%), Illinois (16.4%), New Hampshire (16.3%), Vermont (15.6%) and California (15.5%).May 23, 2020"

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jmm1837

I'm not an economist, but it seems to me that the whole world is going to be in for a fairly massive hit on incomes at the same time that taxes are going to have to go up to pay for all the programs put in place to help the suddenly unemployed and to keep businesses afloat. The US will certainly not be exempt from that. It does occur to me that the US has a greater confidence in its own ability to get the economy back on track quickly than other countries, but I wonder whether that confidence is founded on reality. Certainly, the big setbacks in Florida, et al, are going to slow recovery in some of the areas now spiking with Covid cases. That doesn't mean the economy won't recover, but I think it will be a lot more drawn out than optimists think.


I'm therefore a bit bemused by all the talk on other threads of home improvements and the like. Great if you have the money, but most Americans (like most Australians and Canadians) carry a lot of household debt, and in these times, I'm not sure how confident anyone can be of having a reliable income in the future to pay for expenses incurred now. I know that, here in Australia, there are huge cutbacks in things like the airline industry, simply because of the collapse of international (and even domestic) travel. (I certainly think business conferences are going to be held by webinars in the future rather than by business people flying around the country, never mind the world.) Hospitality and tourism, are likewise in for a huge downturn. So, as the job market shrinks and people rely on savings and/or welfare, consumption will shrink, which means fewer jobs in retail, etc and the cycle goes on.


I think that right now, we are all, whether in America or not, hoping to get back to normal, but I think we are dreaming in technicolor if we think it's going to happen quickly and without a lot of pain.


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soupgirl53

Back to the topic. Chisue, my biggest concern is all of the empty office space and strip malls if working from home is going to be the new normal. Downtowns could become more like a ghost town than they are right now. ghost town. Can downtown shops and restaurants survive with only dinner traffic?

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Nana H

Ann, it's not about those making 100K plus and their cost of living, and it' s not about those who are saving so much on travel that they can do house renos or throw more money into the markets. Those are the " haves" .

It's about the States who have large numbers of unemployed , no health insurance, dependant upon food stamps and the like. Some States have much higher percentages of those than other States relative to the percent of the population that is contributing to the tax base. Those are the have nots.


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Ann

Then Nana mentioned welfare. New York spends the most on welfare per capita. (Note, this returns us to the topic of cost of living as well). Is New York a have or have not state?

"1. New York

  • Welfare spending per capita: $3,305
  • Total public welfare expenditures: $19.85 billion

Considering the fact that residents need to make nearly $100,000 to live comfortably in one of the biggest cities in New York, it’s no surprise this state’s public welfare expenditures are so high. New York has the fifth-highest cost of living in the country."


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-states-spend-most-least-090000541.html

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jmm1837

Well, the way I see it, many American states are about to become "have nots" so maybe this sidebar isn't all that relevant. Living comfortably is one thing; being able to afford the basic necessities is something else again, and a lot of people going to find themselves moving into that column on the balance sheet.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I think there is going to be a bloodbath in the retail sector. People have gotten used to shopping on line and will contine. Restaurants will close because people also got used to cooking at home and realize that home cooking is pretty darn good. I think office properties will be in jeopardy as smaller companies realize they don't need to rent offices - they can get buy with their employees working from home and using on line meeting apps. (I already work from home and have done so for almost two years now). The only two areas I personally have any faith in right now are the multifamily market and the industrial market (smaller flex space properties will remain popular). I think self storage will stay good also. I am not too optimistic about residential either. With people losing jobs, foreclosures are going to happen.

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maifleur03

I have to a agree with jmm. I remember sometime last year?? about a comment I made concerning about the use of credit cards to earn points the paying them off each month being risky behavior. That is a habit that is very hard to stop when there is less money available. Many people who have lost their jobs and are living on unemployment depending on their state laws may soon find that they are having difficulty even with current expenses much less paying off the balance of last months charges.

The people in their mid30s upward will have difficulty finding a new job because of unexpressed age discrimination. They may find jobs but it will be at a lower income. Companies do not have to rehire either those that were just let go nor the ones that were furloughed although the furloughed ones have a better chance.

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Ann

Nana, my question to you was a very sincere question and my searches and my numerous links here have done nothing to help me understand what you mean. I have no idea what states you think are have states and which are have nots. You've provided no links at all to address the comments you are posting. I have provided several links and from the info I've provided or any you care to provide, I still want to know some examples of which states you consider to be have states and which you consider to be have not states - and why?

Part of the reason I find this interesting is that there have been numerous news reports lately about people deciding to relocate to different states. American citizens are growing increasingly concerned about situations like CHOP, police defunding or reduction, riots, destruction, etc. Many people are really beginning to give serious consideration to more rural living and in states where law and order is appreciated, observed, and respected. My husband and I are definitely having conversations like this lately. CA would be a state we would never consider whereas Wyoming and Idaho are high on our list of considerations. I honestly can't think of a state I view in a "have" or "have not" way. Of the many states I've visited, all have some great aspects and some not so great aspects - climate, cost of living, homelessness, tax structures, natural beauty, open spaces vs urban living, political climate, etc. While I know of states I'd never consider, I don't know of a "have not" state. There are wonderful states in the north, south, east, west, and center of the country.

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George Davis

Mother use to say a hard head makes a soft behind. All those issues your speaking of are meaningless with climate change. All these "conveniences" we're not really aware of in our daily lives will disappear that will be the biggest one. Just think of the old man in Soilent green. The sadness in his eyes not seeing meat for twenty years. Where people were sold as part of the furniture. Would you take a pill to feed yourself knowing that use to be another person. I mean really, Wyoming, Idaho those will be baked solid from the heat like most of the mid-west. There's a dust storm from the other side of the planet that crossed the biggest body of water on the earth and still made it here. There's no middle of nowhere any more to run too. Even as they see it happening they keep saying how " convenient" where they live.

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Nana H

Ann, I explained my opinion in a post above. If you think that the life of the majority in States like Alabama or Mississippi is on a par with the majority in States like Colorado then nothing I can say will change that.

"Ann, it's not about those making 100K plus and their cost of living,
and it' s not about those who are saving so much on travel that they can
do house renos or throw more money into the markets. Those are the "
haves" .

It's about the States who have large numbers of unemployed , no
health insurance, dependent upon food stamps and the like. Some States
have much higher percentages of those than other States relative to the
percent of the population that is contributing to the tax base. Those
are the have not's."


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catspa_zone9sunset14

Most of the statistics you've cited are irrelevant, Ann. For one, any state that hasn't fully reopened its economy (California hasn't) is going to have a high amount of unemployment -- like Colorado's 12.2% in April -- so looking at unemployment rates at the moment (Texas' rate just increased sharply, at noon exactly, yesterday...) says nothing.

What California does have is a vast, diverse economic engine (6th or 7th largest in the world, all by itself) with the wherewithal and capability to adapt and create new jobs, and even novel industries, something that many states lack. Take Wyoming, to use your example, where the economy pretty much depends entirely on natural resource extraction and tourism, and a bit of agriculture, and that's it. How does it create new jobs when the energy industry goes south, as it has right now? ETA, it's "nice" when you have money earned elsewhere, to look around for a nice bit of landscape for retirement, but heaven help you if all's there is is the landscape on which to make a living. I've got lots of relatives sitting on many acres of pretty landscape they own in the rural areas of northern California, but they hardly have two nickels to rub together.


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maifleur03

Beyond the large number of unemployed there are those that are underemployed. Ann you mentioned Wyoming and Idaho both which a large number of residents only have seasonal jobs. While on the surface those states are booming with more people with wealth moving to them the average person receives much less income and many have to rely on what some on here look down upon. Food stamps are a way of life for those in the lumber industry among others.

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elvis

Nana H

Ann, good to hear that Colorado, or at least your part of Colorado, isn't being as hard hit with job and economic loss as other areas are.

47 M, I think that was the last count. now unemployed. Several States seeing huge spikes and stalling or rolling back openings. Bars and restaurants closing down again.

Could it be we are into a situation where the have and have not States will be amplified?

"we"? You're Canadian, and you live in Canada. There is no "we" for you on this point.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate for you to post:

"Could it be that the US is into a situation where the have and have not States will be amplified?"

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deegw

Nitpick, insult, deflect or feign ignorance.

Cha-cha-cha.

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wildchild2x2

Will we lose enough Seniors to impact society? Socially? Economically?

I don't believe so. I guess I know too many healthy active seniors. I struggled with this anyone over age 60 is at risk thing since this began. Actually it makes pushing 70 year old me angry. I know plenty of people in their 50s and younger in much poorer health than many of my senior friends. Much of the original panic was due to seniors dying in nursing homes and long term care centers. That is a demographic of seniors that are already at a higher risk of dying sooner rather than later. Retired seniors are mostly already on somewhat fixed incomes so they at least know how much is coming in and already have learned to budget. Not so for outside investments as property rental in some areas. The non eviction /non rent clause in our area is hurting many.

Even the less active seniors I know have had enough. They are tired of shelter in place, tired of being alone and are getting out more. Spending more time wandering around stores just to get out and about. I am just not seeing the "I haven't left my house set except for essentials" around here with the exception of those who knowingly have comorbidity issues with their health. But age isn't stopping anyone. Just the opposite. We want to live our days as much as possible. Not just exist waiting to die which could happen to any of us at any time.

I think what will stretch the system socially and economically is the middle aged. The ones in the middle, the middle aged who have lost their jobs and won't find it easy to get new ones. They will require more social services and most likely will be leaving states like California in order to survive.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I've got lots of relatives sitting on many acres of pretty landscape they own in the rural areas of northern California

I have lots of older relative lamenting about rich they would be if they had only held on to the property they used to own in downtown (plus near and around) Los Angeles.

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Ann

Well, some of you mentioned the virus, so I found this article from May of 2019. Here are the states the most people were moving away from prior to covid. Interestingly to me, I believe 8 are blue states and 2 are red states.

"Business Insider analyzed Census data from 2016 and 2017 and compiled a list of the states that are seeing the most outbound migration. That means residents that are leaving a state for another state.

The top 10 include New York, Illinois, California, New Jersey, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Hawaii, Maryland, Connecticut, and Kansas.

While the reasons each state is dealing with an outbound migration crisis are different, there are several common themes, including high taxes, real estate prices and the cost of living."


https://www.businessinsider.com/the-top-10-states-people-are-moving-out-of-us-2019-5

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maifleur03

I missed George Davis's earlier comment. Sorry sir but each year clouds of dust come to the US from Africa. This one just happens to be coming now.

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kadefol

We now know the positive job reports for April and May were due to indefinitely furloughed workers being counted as "employed, but absent from work", instead of "unemployed". If you add the miscounted numbers, the unemployment numbers for April and May were well over 16%. With the end of pandemic unemployment assistance looming next month, it is possible that many people who don't have jobs to go back to and can't find employment will fall off a financial cliff.

Evictions, foreclosures and homelessness will probably increase. Many others who can hold on financially will likely tighten their belts and curb spending, as many people tend to do during uncertain times, which will further negatively affect the economy.

The economy will eventually recover, as it always does. WFH and virtual office interactions may turn into a permanent situation for many, which is a boon for the introverts among us. /end of gazing into my crystal ball. :)

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maifleur03

kadefol it will vary from state to state but in this area that has two major auto plants both states count furloughed people as you stated "employed, but absent from work" because they are subject to recall. Unemployed do not have that privilege. Depending on employer some things like insurance are still being paid by the employer along with any other employee benefits for the furloughed. It also has some tax advantages but I do not know enough about them. Imagine having to rehire 4,000+ employees to start tomorrow if people were not kept on the companies records.

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kadefol

Maifleur, the furloughed people in question were drawing unemployment and did not have a definite recall date, so they should have been counted as unemployed. That mistake made April and May numbers look better than they were, though they were still dismal.

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maifleur03

The autoworkers here seldom have a recall date and believe me they collect unemployment. As I stated each state has their own unemployment rules some allow unemployment to be filed for. The bills passed by Congress allows it in every state but even before then some states did others did not. A search can easily find that information.

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Kathy

Low taxes in a state often mean they get more revenue from the federal government to supplement the low taxes collected. That makes them taker states. It is true the people in the states with high tax rates are suffering because they pay more into the federal government than they get back.


If it’s true people are moving to the low tax states we will see how long it is until those states become more independent as a result. Hopefully that will be the case.

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Iris GW

I see more businesses taking advantage of work from home situations in the future.

Means less spending on

- dry cleaning

- business clothing/attire

- weekday lunches

- less demand for gasoline

Perhaps more spending on

- home improvement projects

- work from home office equipment

- exercise from home equipment (decrease in gyms? not sure)

- food delivery businesses like Uber, DoorDash?

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queenmargo

People

Barbra Streisand

People,
People who need people,
Are the luckiest people in the world
We're children, needing other children
And yet letting a grown-up pride
Hide all the need inside
Acting more like children than children

Lovers, very special people
They're the luckiest people in the world
With one person (one person)
One very special person (one very special person)

A feeling deep in your soul (in your soul)
Says you were half now you're whole
No more hunger and thirst
First be a person who needs people
People who need people
Are the luckiest people in the world

No more hunger or thirst
First be a person who needs people (people need people)
People who need people
Are the luckiest (luckiest) people in the world

People who need people in the world
People who need people (send…

Source: LyricFind

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Kitchenwitch111

A friend passed along a recent Vogue magazine to me and not only was it only about ¼” thick it seemed so out of touch – masks on the models looked ridiculously patronizing. People I know in the fashion biz are already saying there are big changes for them. Any new collections released will be mostly athleisure. Fashion has been getting more and more casual in recent years and this trend will continue – the “power suit” is no longer essential. With most people working from home, there won’t be any need for office wear or fancy shoes. Award shows and evening wear just seem silly now.

Commuting will go down, so mass transit and cars won’t be used as much, so fewer new cars, and less fuel and maintenance and fewer businesses that provide these services. I think there will be migration from expensive cities to the suburbs if people don’t need to go to an office every day. However, I don’t see that many people from the coasts will be relocating to the rural states just to have a cheaper house because the culture of a location matters to many people. Climate change will also have a big effect on where people might move to – no one will want to live where floods, tornados and wildfires are getting worse.

I’m in the home remodeling business, and here in my area it’s still slow but starting up a little. Not everyone will have money but those that do and feel secure in their finances will be improving their homes since that’s where most they feel safe. I think storage for extra supplies, functioning kitchens and flexible home office and schooling spaces will be needed.

There will be many people without jobs and we can’t even begin to conceive of all the domino effects of this new normal. A lot of businesses will be gone, and new ones will pop up but the amount of poor people will increase no matter how hard they work.

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Stan Areted

wildchild2x2:

I don't believe so. I guess I know too many healthy active seniors. I struggled with this anyone over age 60 is at risk thing since this began. Actually it makes pushing 70 year old me angry. I know plenty of people in their 50s and younger in much poorer health than many of my senior friends.


I didn't, either and I know of people in their 80s and 90s surviving Covid.

We have even heard of people 100 surviving it.

Dr. Birx said in the update conference several times that people "over 80" were in the risk group. Not 65 as they used to say. Saying that more than once was certainly a noticeable change, and there have been a lot of them.



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Lulu Smith

queen: Jule Styne and Bob Merrill wrote "People". Streisand is a person who sang someone else's creation.

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HamiltonGardener

Wild child, Stan,

The over 70 number just means higher risk of dying.

Remember, estimates are that the over 70 group has about a 20% chance of dying from it. That means that 80% of people over 70 who catch it will live. So it’s not surprising that you know a number of over 70’s who have recovered from COVID.

In your 80s and 90s, of course that goes up but it doesn’t mean that you automatically die if you get it.

And yes, there are younger people with health issues that are more likely to die that a healthy 70 year old.

Remember that there IS a cure for COVID. It’s called your immune system. Your risk of dying is tied to how well your immune system operates, at any age.

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queenmargo

Lulu- I just Googled lyrics. A lot of people sing someone else's creation. What is your point?

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chisue

Hamilton Gardener -- Re: Promising virus vaccine development. "Potential' means zip beyond nurturing hope. (Lemme show you my grammar school report cards on the topic of potential. LOL)

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Not Lulu but.....The name of the songwriter should go about the lyrics not the artist who sings it.

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chisue

I'd like to thank all who have given this post some thought.

It's certainly discouraging, but I haven't seen a lot of people examining the tidal waves this pandemic will bring. It's only just starting. Life isn't going to be 'the same' for anyone. What can we do to help ourselves?



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maifleur03

chisue to help ourselves sometimes we must just take each day at a time. Consider waking up good. If you can walk or roll a wheelchair is good. Be a little selfish and think I am alive today. Do not be always thinking of those who have died. Sad to loose friends and relatives but you could be and will be one of these days in their number.

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heri_cles

Medicare for All or at least Medicare age reduced to 50 yrs old.



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chisue

I agree with heir_cles. European nations with strong national health systems have done well with this virus. Not only does that make for a healthier population overall, but the people are familiar with the value of Public Health. They also know how to use the system, and...importantly...they trust it.

maifleur -- I appreciate your thoughts, but I'm not 'dwelling'. I'd like to do the opposite. That means recognizing a far-reaching impact. We may be able to mitigate some of the rolling damage to our society. Letting the chips fall where they may won't help us salvage what's good and change what's contributed to making this worse -- for ourselves as citizens and for each of us as individuals.

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barncatz

As I've posted before, in mid- Dec we scheduled a party for late May. In late March, the party was postponed to late August.

In April, the venue (a fairly small, very old hotel in a smallish town near us) closed indefinitely. In May, they forecast reopening in August for social events. The room we had rented would not allow for social distancing, so we cancelled. But the hotel is reopening and although we will only eat at their patio restaurant, I'm thrilled for them.

In early June, we rented an outdoor "barn" venue. It allows us to follow all current Covid recommendations, which have influenced every decision, including how to safely distribute the paddle fans and how to avoid restroom lines.

We don't know if it will rain. We don't know if there will be 10,000 Covid cases in August in this state or the one next to us or how we will react if that happens, but it feels like any decision we make about canceling will be more proactive than reactive, as it was in March. That's a function of sifting through information and weighing it against experience, ours and others.

I don't feel like we have control but nonetheless, I feel like we have more control, if that makes sense.

My point being, I don't believe even a vaccine will restore us to pre-Covid, anymore than the flu vaccine makes the flu " poof" but I believe we will start to adapt.

Edited for clarity.

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queenmargo

Not Lulu but.....The name of the songwriter should go about the lyrics not the artist who sings it.

Take it up with Google.

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Ann

Speaking of Covid, I'm just now watching Steve Hilton's show and here is some info we don't often see on MSM and Hilton thinks it is so irresponsible of the media in the way they report - simply in order to try to bash Trump:

  • Chuck Todd reported last week that the U.S. is doing a far worse job controlling the pandemic - than the EU is doing. Chuck attributed this statement to info from John Hopkins, WaPo. Chuck said the EU and U.S. are basically similar in size. Hilton argued Chuck (and Rachel lately) are referring to case numbers and should be comparing the measure of more importance (deaths per 100,000). In that category, the U.S. is doing better than (and much better than a few of these) Belgium, U.K., Spain, Italy, Sweden, and France. The chart Hilton posted on the TV screen was as of June 26th. The deaths per 100,000 in these countries are as follows, beginning with Belgium and ending with the U.S., in the order I just listed them (85, 65, 60, 57, 51, 44, and 38 for the U.S.).
  • The Covid fatality rate for people 70 and under is close to equal or less than the flu.
  • Germany, who has been praised for their handling of Covid, is experiencing a current flare-up and two previously opened counties have been locked down (the first two since the country's broader reopening - which had been considered a success).

Then, we talk about social distancing issues. This from Bournemouth, England, 3 days ago.

Hilton's comment about this picture was "Don't tell me we have some unique problem in irresponsible red states."

But, I won't hold my breath that we'll suddenly see fair reporting as long as Trump is president of this country.

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maifleur03

Nope. The European and Asian countries have been pro active not every person for themselves no matter what the show was showing. People can believe whatever they want but in the US there have been few "leaders" giving any direction to the citizens other than maybe do what you wish.

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jmm1837

"But, I won't hold my breath that we'll suddenly see fair reporting as long as Trump is president of this country."


Fair reporting would acknowledge the European countries that have done worse than the US in terms of mortality. It would also acknowledge those that have done better: Germany, 11; Portugal 15; Poland 4; Switzerland 23; Austria 8; Denmark 10; Norway 5; Finland 6, etc.


Fair reporting would also acknowledge that the US is running at a new case rate of around 40,000 a day; the EU, which has a larger population than the US, is running around 6,000 new cases a day. The comparison between the US deaths/100,000 and EU deaths/100,000 is premature, to say the least, since the US death figures are likely to climb proportionately higher than the EU ones over the next months, given the difference in new cases.


And finally, the Covid mortality rate is higher than the flu mortality in almost every age group, and certainly in every age group over 40.


https://www.businessinsider.com.au/coronavirus-death-rate-us-compared-to-flu-by-age-2020-6?r=US&IR=T


So, your report is no more fair than the ones you complain about.


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ubro(2a)

Fair reporting would also point to how many cases Germany's suge consists of. Even if they are experiencing an uptick, it was expected. We all should expect and uptick as things open up, how we then deal with that uptick is the important point.

U.S. is doing better than (and much better than a few of these) Belgium, U.K., Spain, Italy, Sweden, and France. The chart Hilton posted on the TV screen was as of June 26th. The deaths per 100,000 in these countries are as follows, beginning with Belgium and ending with the U.S., in the order I just listed them (85, 65, 60, 57, 51, 44, and 38 for the U.S.).

How many countries are in the world, and the US ranks the 9th worst in deaths per 100,000 and those EU countries with worse records are on the bottom of their curve and the US is still rising.

A fair report would show the large number of countries that are doing better than the US and when it does not it is more intent on spinning the information to appear positive.

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Kathy

This is the biggest social change I have experienced in my lifetime and one I believe will most likely outlive me. It will be years, if ever, before we will live without regard to spread of diseases we cannot control. We are decimating the climate and as a result it we are seeing the results on a personal level.

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Nana H

Fair reporting would be accurately telling the American people what is actually happening in the States. Comparisons and numbers are fair but they should not be cherry picked or twisted by either side. FOX is no better than MSNBC , just the other way around.

I can't get too excited about fair reporting when the leaders themselves are outright lying. In my view they have as much responsibility for truthfulness as the press does. Why does the right demand fair reporting but does not hold Trump et al accountable for their lies and distortions?

For example, we heard from the right the total of number of tests as compared to other countries but without the ratios on a per population basis. Changes the picture completely.

Yesterday, I heard Abbott almost bragging about how much lower the death count is in Texas relative to the number of cases. Not only is it early days BUT he neglected to qualify it with the fact the average age of those contracting the disease is much , much younger than it was during the shutdown.

Fair is fair, truth is truth, facts are facts and neither the press nor Trump should get a pass on any of them.

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Ziemia(6a)

Fair reporting? Don't see any info here that actually points out unfair reporting. As for examining the death rates, it's a bit premature as the current surge is still growing. Though with this surge coming so long after the initial one, there will be benefit from things learned wrt treatment so yes, the death rate may be going down. A good thing. .

But we (as a nation) should not be experiencing this surge. Saying the death rate is better is part of the deflection away from the lack of proper leadership.

PS - we all learned about that crowded beach in Britain days ago, right?

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Ann

"Fair reporting would acknowledge the European countries that have done worse than the US in terms of mortality. It would also acknowledge those that have done better: Germany, 11; Portugal 15; Poland 4; Switzerland 23; Austria 8; Denmark 10; Norway 5; Finland 6, etc."

Agreed, and Hilton's chart did continue beyond the U.S., thus including countries with fewer deaths per 100,000. It was one TV screen worth of data, so it clearly couldn't cover the entire world, but the U.S. was in the middle of the data on the screen - with countries below the U.S. having better rates than the U.S. - so his report didn't hide that. The point of the segment, though, was that the news does not "fairly" cover the U.S. or Trump. I bet you'd never have realized (from watching MSM) those 6 European countries had more deaths per 100,000 than the U.S., right? From the news we hear, you might think like this recent comment on another thread.

"Didn't have to most world leaders had an effective strategy figured out...oh except for the US , Russia , Brazil and a few more advanced western democracies / sarc"

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Ann

"We all should expect and uptick as things open up"

Agreed!

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Ann

Ubro, same response to you as to Jmm. I had paused the TV to type the info I was seeing on the screen. I didn't enter every country on the screen since I didn't have a print source to copy and it was a bit of a chore. My point and Hilton's point was the unfair reporting regarding the U.S. and Trump.

I well recognize the U.S. is in a battle with this virus and is struggling in some states and these states are roving. For example, CA was doing great and isn't now. New York was a disaster and is doing well now. There has been a lot of shifting. Clearly, other countries are experiencing the same issues. Germany is right now. U.K. is worried about large gatherings like in the picture leading to a second wave. China is going through a second wave at present.

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Nana H

Ann , what is happening in FL, TX and AZ is not an "uptick" and this is not a second wave. We aren't out of the first wave yet.

NOTE to Elvis ....."we" means the US and Canada.

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maifleur03

I wish people would stop thinking that this is the second wave but I also think that they will grasp anything that makes them feel that things are nearing the end except for a much smaller group of people. When the flu season starts may/will be when the second wave hit with all of the people who have not fully recovered are more susceptible to the flu which will increase their rate of dying.

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Nana H

The lights will come on when the economy fails to recover for quite some time and worse yet faces further set backs. For many it's all about the money ...their money.

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chisue

OK, OK. Can we stop with the nit-picking, please. Can we focus on what you predict, socially and financially? How about telling what YOU see ahead for yourself and your family?

Will there be deflation, followed by inflation? How will the structure of your family/town/state change?

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Ziemia(6a)

Cute image.... roving states.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

Chisue, I think about your question all the time. All I know for sure is work from home is a winner and people will get to leave super high cost of living areas like the immediate Bay Area. For my own family, I have three college aged children and one rising high school junior. I am especially unhappy about what this is doing to their education, internships and leisure. My children's university is opening up for in person frosh and seniors this year. I don't think that will work out and expect to see my boys home well before Thanksgiving.

I believe all the services like Instacart, Zoom, online education services, exercise at home, and virtual reality apps will continue to do very well. Plus I would bet people will upgrade their TV and sound systems since the only way I am going to the opera, theater or symphony is at home for the foreseeable future.

Aside from that, my crystal ball is cloudy.

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kadefol

Will there be deflation, followed by inflation?

Probably deflation, because of high unemployment and weak job opportunities, and subsequently much reduced spending. Beyond that, it depends on how long it takes for the economy to recover and if production has been decreased enough to cause inflation when demand increases again.

How will the structure of your family/town/state change?

No change in family structure, except less travel to visit remote family members for the foreseeable future.

Town or state changes I am not sure about. The powers that be in TX are doing the bare minimum to contain the virus, on a state and local level.

In our area, a special city council meeting was held very recently to decide if, in light of the sharp increase in covid cases, masks should be made mandatory in stores and other public venues.

The council members unanimously voted against a mask ordinance "because people should have the freedom to decide for themselves". The greater good never seems to outweigh individual freedoms in TX which can be a positive or a negative, depending on your viewpoint.

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chisue

Thanks for some longer-term thinking. I'm encouraged!

I'm not understanding what I'm seeing -- things like the Dow rising today because Boeing looks a tad stronger. (Who is going to be flying? For business? For leisure?)

I see people who sound like they are 'Middle America' on Trip Advisor, asking how they can shave a bit off the cost of a trip to Hawaii. (We know many Americans of all ages have no savings and are already financing everything including their groceries on a CC. How will they pay for a frill like this during a Depression?)

Some here write about people plowing money into fancy home improvements. (You could buy a nice house for taxes in the Great Depression -- and for half off in 2008 in many locations, for that matter.)

My small city's government says we will be all right for *one* fiscal year. There's no RE market here now for any large homes with hefty taxes. Municipalities with larger tax bases are not going to be collecting taxes from non-existent car sales, retail, restaurants, etc. Yet, the costs go on.

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HamiltonGardener

How about telling what YOU see ahead for yourself and your family?


Chisue,


No changes ahead for my family, socially or financially. Except maybe stepdaughter, who is thinking of moving to England as soon as she is finished school. Not sure if we are sad that she’s moving away or happy for an excuse to visit England! 👍

Hubby and I are planning a trip to Portugal for the winter, viewing properties there. If we can get a good place, our plans may accelerate, but that’s not really a change from our original plan.



(Who is going to be flying? For business? For leisure?)


Both. And probably even more for leisure as countries open up and quarantine periods are lifted. There are plenty of people chomping at the bit. Look at what is happening in Asia and Europe.

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jmm1837

Not so sure about the flying bit. Countries that are problematic for Covid, like the US, are not going to be travel destinations for citizens of countries that have got the virus under control, nor are residents of problematic countries going to be traveling in the way they used to because of insurance restrictions, closed borders and quarantines at prospective destinations. Australia is looking at travel "bubbles" with NZ, Singapore and maybe a few other countries; a lot of Asian countries (China, Taiwan, Viet Nam, Japan) are thinking along similar lines. They aren't going to open up to the whole world, and I can't really see the US being included in those bubbles for quite some time. I expect Americans are going to have to get used to a period of exploring their own country rather than touring Europe or visiting Japan.

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Ann

I'm planning on flying in the fall if our trip doesn't get canceled. I agree with HG that people are ready and anxious to travel.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

People are planning and booking vacations. The town our ski house is in is booking up for Christmas faster than usual. We are planning on spending the holidays there ourselves. We won't fly though. And there may be no more fun après ski activities for us, but we will be on the mountain.

I have friends booking trips to Europe for the holidays. They report resorts filling up sooner than usual.

I don't see a Great Depression on the horizon, maybe a Great Recession, but that will only affect some sectors, nothing across the board, I hope.

The housing market signaled strength today and the Street was quite happy.

PS Closer to home, my town is cutting some services back due to reductions in sales and hotel tax collection. The housing market is as strong as ever here with $2M for a starter home.

I am in Central Texas for the next few months, and the luxury housing market here is quite strong as well.

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Barbara Wilson

I think travel will change for some. It was already getting very unpleasant to fly before COVID and I don’t see airlines improving it.

People will go back to eating out. Cooking at home was already popular on some circles. Both my grown children belong to dinner groups that were meeting monthly before COVID and I am sure will start again. But they still ate out. People with busy schedules eat out and I think if more end up WFH they will eat out more just to interact with others.

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Ziemia(6a)

Is Europe open to travelers from the USA?

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HamiltonGardener

Ziemia,

No, America was left off the list.

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Ann

The housing market is strong here as well. A neighbor's house went on the market (at a price I thought unreasonably high) and was under contract in less than 24 hours. I'll have to wait until after closing to see what price it actually sold at but I can't imagine the seller was willing to come down very far or at all in less than 24 hours.

Zalco, I smiled at your comment as the starter home price in your town (CA, right?) is likely higher priced than the luxury home market in central Texas. Right?

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Ann

HG, I know America and Russia won't be allowed into the EU countries beginning Wed., but I haven't heard beyond this "phase" of opening. Have you read when the next phase of opening might begin? It appears Zalco's friends expect they'll be allowed by the time the holidays happen.

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HamiltonGardener

They said they will be reviewing the list every two weeks, I believe.

They will base it on new cases and whether countries will be open to reciprocal agreements.


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Nana H

The decision to allow residents of a specific country to enter the EU will be based on the Covid situation in each specific foreign country seeking access.

The conditions that will be considered are:

"The first is related to the epidemiological situation it that particular country, whether it can be considered as being in a similar or better position than the average situation in the EU+ area with regard to the number and the trend in new infections.

In the assessment of each country’s situation, the following will also be taken into account: testing, surveillance, contact tracing, containment, treatment and reporting.

The second is related to the containment measures taken by that country, whether it ensures a similar or better level of containment measures as the EU from its transport and transport hubs operators"

The US will be granted entry to the EU when Covid is under control in the US as judged by the EU.

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Ann

"They said they will be reviewing the list every two weeks, I believe."

Thank you! That's exactly the kind of info I've been looking for.

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Nana H

When will the US get Covid under control to a level acceptable to th EU? Looking at the curve it likely will be months. It hasn't even flattened much less started a descent.

My travel insurance provider is refusing coverage when traveling to the US until further notice. I'm looking at alternative providers but the prices are prohibitive.


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maifleur03

If it turns out what Anne Schuchat of the CDC stated today that there is no way for the US to now control the virus is correct it will be a long time before any other country welcomes people from the US.

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cattyles

Who can blame them?

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Marigold

re the flu virus with pandemic potential linked by lurker earlier, a noted epdidemiologist/public health Dr had this response "Update: this article title might be premature and tad sensational. It’s just a virus in pigs for now. Only 2 cases. And it’s an older 2016 origin virus. No human to human yet. 10% of swing farmers have antibodies. No real flashing red light evidence yet."

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1277746520432037889

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ubro(2a)

From the article linked below.

Barred Countries

It’s understood that about 50 nations have also been put on a barred (“red”) list. Borders will not reopen to them in a hurry. Other than the U.S. and Russia, for now they are known to include Israel, Turkey and Saudi Arabia.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/tamarathiessen/2020/06/28/europe-travel-us-banned-14-countries-can-visit-eu/#fdd128a66fd3

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Ann

This day has been full of school info and recommendations. I'm very glad to hear child psychologists strongly weighing in on the importance of children returning to school in person and full time. I don't have a print source to link, but I've heard the reporting on TV and radio news several times today. They are expressing great concern for the psychological well being of children removed from the social aspects of school. Good (and important) news IMO!

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lurker111

Yes Helen, that's all in the article. Thanks. These are the first words in the article. I sure didn't need Dr. Ding for this...

A new strain of flu that has the potential to become a pandemic has been identified in China by scientists.

It emerged recently and is carried by pigs, but can infect humans, they say.

The
researchers are concerned that it could mutate further so that it can
spread easily from person to person, and trigger a global outbreak.

While
it is not an immediate problem, they say, it has "all the hallmarks" of
being highly adapted to infect humans and needs close monitoring.

Unfortunately, they said the same thing about Covid...No human to human transfer. I've learned my lesson...Have you? The scientists are clueless.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

I'm very glad to hear child psychologists strongly weighing in on the importance of children returning to school in person and full time.

It's obvious to everybody, except maybe to that segment of home-schoolers for whom ideology out-weighs everything, that the social aspects of attending school are important for children. The problem is figuring out the logistics for accomplishing that safely, now that we know that dense congregations of people indoors are likely to cause outbreaks and potentially exponential infections, deaths, and disabilities. For example, we may need to double or triple the size of school facilities and personnel if we want to have students attend full time without the crowding of the typical classroom. An alternative would be to have children attend half-time (what some schools are contemplating, from what I've read). It's "nice" that child psychologists are weighing in on the importance of school (duh), but did they have any concrete ideas on how to accomplish that, Ann?

I think all schooling, K-12 and higher, is, and will continue to be, deeply affected by this for the time being, changing many people's lives with it. At minimum, more resources (money) are going to be needed than what is provided now, at least for K-12.


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chisue

I do not plan to fly anywhere until Covid-19 is controlled to a *much* greater degree than it is now, worldwide. That is said to require 60-70% of the population to be immune (by whatever means -- recovered/vaccinated). Could the US reach that point before there is a vaccine, given the rampant infection rate here, as opposed to other first world nations?

I expect the State of Hawaii to rescind plans to open to out-of-state visitors August 1. (Visitors must test negative prior to booking.) The state has a unique ability to isolate -- most effective against the virus on islands other than Oahu. I do not expect any STR revenue from our Maui condo for over a year. We may be able to rent it long-term (6+ months) for considerably less. Meanwhile, the taxes, association fees, etc. continue. Ten percent of our complex is currently occupied. Revenue from owners is in decline. Because Hawaii is so dependent on tourism, unemployment is huge. So far, residents have chosen to live 'poor' rather than risk Covid. We'll see soon, as unemployment benefits drop.

Locally (north shore Chicago) the RE market is strong in lower-priced SFH, but you can buy a house with a $60K tax bill for 'peanuts'. This market really never recovered after 2008 -- when I first realized just how 'leveraged' some people live!

The virus has thrown a spotlight on economic disparity in our country. We don't just have 'cracks', we have vast *craters*.



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Stan Areted

lurker111:

Unfortunately, they said the same thing about Covid...No human to human transfer.I've learned my lesson...Have you? The scientists are clueless.


Let's see what we have been told by the "experts" along the way:


Oh yes, not communicable human to human.

Started in a "wet market."

It only kills old people.

The symptoms are fever, coughing, and difficulty breathing.

It kills everyone of every age, you're next.

Don't wear masks, they do NO good.

The virus is so small a mask cannot be tight enough to stop it.

An 95 mask doesn't filter what the wearer BREATHES OUT, and is too confining to wear all the time.

Wear masks if you want.

If you don't wear masks we're going to attack you in grocery stores and call you nasty names.

It only affects the lungs.

LOL who needs all of that toilet paper it doesn't give you gastrointenstial symptoms.

It may affect the heart, the kidneys and the gastrointestinal tract.

It causes blood clots.

It doesn't cause blood clots.

It's not pneumonia so much as tiny blood clots.

It gets in your eyes.

Disinfect everything you touch and your groceries.

It's not so communicable by surfaces as thought.

The summer may kill it.

The summer doesn't kill it.

Oh dear it's air conditioning that spreads it

It's bars

It's not protests, though, those are sanctioned as "important." Particularly the riot "protests." Just not worshipping in your car in church parking lot with the windows up.


With testing, positive ANTIBODY tests, although the person does not presently have COVID and is not believed communicable, ARE COUNTED AS POSITIVE COVID-19 CASES.


I'm with you, lurker, I'll go with what I see and know, and it won't be from federal or state figures, because they misrepresent and change the way information is posted, and it's always negative and meant to induce worry and fear, from what I can tell.


The fact is, we were "kept in" way too long and now everyone is out and about and sick of it. Our economy was intentionally ruined based on lies and speculation.

A lot of us are over it, we will make our own decisions from here out.

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Ann

Interesting Senate questioning of the medical group today, about school openings. Rand Paul was fantastic IMO!

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Ziemia(6a)

anti-science

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Kathy

It’s too late to contain the pandemic in US now. We will be living with it along time. Compared to other countries we failed miserably.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Adaptive management clearly isn't your "thing", Stan. You seem to want hard-and-fast rules (prescriptive management), which are pretty much impossible to come by on the frontiers of science. You can make your own rules and decisions all you want. However, for example, those who need to deal with the overwhelming demands on medical infrastructure created by allowing people to be "out and about" and doing whatever they want, resulting in the current huge surge in cases and hospitalizations (a third of which are now people under age 50, in one hospital system in Houston, in contrast with the earlier surge), probably have a different perspective.

Like it or not, science is going to guide the way we overcome the impacts of this. Here, from an article this morning, is maybe a key:

Most infected people don’t pass on the coronavirus to someone else. But a small number pass it on to many others in so-called superspreading events.

“You can think about throwing a match at kindling,” said Ben Althouse, a scientist at the Institute for Disease Modeling in Bellevue, Wash. “You throw one match, it may not light the kindling. You throw another match, it may not light the kindling. But then one match hits in the right spot, and all of a sudden the fire goes up.”

Understanding why some matches start fires while many do not will be crucial to curbing the pandemic, scientists say. They’re trying to answer three questions: Who are the superspreaders? When does superspreading take place? And where?

Biological factors might be part of the answer, but some doctors suspect circumstances play a more important role.

They’ve found that a lot of transmission seems to happen in a narrow window of time starting a couple days after infection, even before symptoms emerge. If people aren’t around a lot of people during that window, they can’t pass it along.

And certain places seem to lend themselves to superspreading. A busy bar, for example, is full of people talking loudly. Any one of them could spew out viruses without ever coughing. And without good ventilation, the viruses can linger in the air for hours.

Scientists are optimistic that it may be possible to avoid crippling, across-the-board lockdowns by targeting superspreading events.

“By curbing the activities in quite a small proportion of our life, we could actually reduce most of the risk,” said Adam Kucharski, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Dont think of it as a failure... Think of it as being closer to herd immunity than other countries!!

Always look on the bright side of life...


That's pretty grotesque, not to mention snarky, HG, and I wouldn't be betting heavily on herd immunity arising from contracting the disease. It may very well turn out to be like a deadlier version of the common cold, in which case it's going to be a long haul.

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Ziemia(6a)

Going for herd immunity (in place of going for reducing the rate of new infections) means more lives are negatively impacted.

And those of us with immune and other health issues are just tossed aside when ***natural herd immunity is the suggested/ supported path.

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Nana H

I am definitely in the get them back to school as soon as possible camp ...but safely. Kids need to be in school. I don't need to get my hair done, get back to my yoga or dine out but the kids NEED to get back to school.

However. I recognize it is going to look very different. Every second day in the actual school, maybe half days, maybe six days a week, maybe all year round? Who knows ? But one thing I do know is that our property taxes will be going up. Restarting schools is going to be very expensive.

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Kathy

Schools are preparing for social distancing. I know lunches will be all packaged now and less choices. Perhaps free for all kids in some Florida districts to keep contact to a minimum.

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Ziemia(6a)

Lesson prep by a teacher for students in a self-contained classroom (which is typical of elementary level grades - some specialists but mostly all together) is very different from having half the class being in school and giving distance-learning lessons to the other half.


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Stan Areted

Schools are preparing for social distancing. I know lunches will be all packaged now and less choices. Perhaps free for all kids in some Florida districts to keep contact to a minimum.

Parents should make lunches for their own children,

It's not the taxpayer's responsibility.

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Nana H

Ziemia, I was thinking more along the lines of a day in the class, one day distance learning while the other half is in the class. Lots of options being discussed.

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Kathy

One thing is certain it will be a new normal in many areas.

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cecily 7A

In my district parents can choose all distance learning or one day in person then one day distance.

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Nana H

We don't do school lunches in Ontario except in some very poor neighborhoods. Kids pack a lunch or go home for lunch.

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Kathy

The county in Florida where my DD works had at least three or more choices for school lunches. Too much variety Imho, and almost all homemade by cafeteria workers. They will be scaled back and money saved will be able to feed all, they are hoping. No exchange of tokens or money. It stands to reason some areas are run differently than others depending on population and income. They serve hundreds at lunch hour in 3 lunch periods.

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HamiltonGardener

Lol No python fans here, apparently.

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NOWAY2Biden

Wow. Never crossed my mind. I guess you see what you look for.

But, of course, this doesn't worth BOTH ways, does it? Of course it doesn't.

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NOWAY2Biden

Rand Paul was fantastic IMO!

He's always fantastic!

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queenmargo

I am a fan of Rand Paul;)

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Ann

I just love some of Rand Paul's ideas and he was so great today. I've linked his clip from today. But, when it's time for voting on legislation, Rand frustrates me. He always wants more and, while I agree with his desires, getting 80% of something can be a lot better than getting nothing.


https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/505302-rand-paul-urges-fauci-to-provide-more-optimism-on-coronavirus

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Ziemia(6a)

"Ziemia, I was thinking more along the lines of a day in the class, one day distance learning while the other half is in the class. Lots of options being discussed."

Nana, that is what I was attempting to comment on. Look at it from from the perspective of the teacher (a single teacher).

What you describe means half the students are there for in-person lessons while during the same time the other half is taking distance learning. All from the same teacher (as least as it has been described so far around here).

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Kathy

The U.S. is now recording about 40,000 new cases per day, surpassing previous records set in April.

It is obvious there are areas that have opened and people haven’t practiced safe socializing so cases of hospitalization are increasing. What is RP answer to that dilemma other than being critical of Fauci?

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Ziemia(6a)

Need some optimism? (We've been opening slowly - we had rates nearly bas bad as New York's.)

We (Massachusetts) also have had several very large protests (some this past weekend). Our coronavirus infection rate is very, very low and has continued to drop over June. We are not yet fully open.

But our beaches are.

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Ziemia(6a)

You are right... Sen. Paul was amazing. He said this:

""When are we going to tell the people the truth, that it’s OK to bring our kids school?""

And another ""“we shouldn’t presume that a group of experts somehow knows what’s best for everyone.”"

Must have the same consultant as Pence.

It would be funny in a skit - but it is dangerous in real life.

Words like his are part of the inspiration that gave so many folks in AZ & FL the idea it was ok to congregate.

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Nana H

Ziemia, no what I am describing is two teachers. One doing the distance learning and the other the in class teaching. Or one teacher teaching half the class in school one day and online the next.....but definitely two teachers where there now is one.

It' s going to cost a bomb either way.

ETA I think if the US could get their act together at a national level and get this under control the solutions could be less complicated. However, Fauci is now saying if something doesn't change the cases could reach 100K PER DAY!! The kids are never getting back to school at that rate. People can change that......but why won't they?

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Ann

People are very busy congregating outside NY's City Hall today as they vote to reduce the LE budget. Rioters are congregating every single day lately - all around this country - as they then kill many teens and children of our country. Boy, the deaths from these riots are growing! And, the Covid cases are too. No doubt, there are a heck of a lot of people congregating in this country.

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Ann

That's not a scenario being considered in my state. In my state, it appears it will be in person school, 5 days a week.

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Kathy

Wearing masks at the protests has been instrumental in the fact that the protests have not caused a rise in cases in the cities such as NY. It is the gatherings in bars and close proximity without masks that seems to be the cause.

Many protesters in New York City and other major cities wore masks during demonstrations, and doctors speculate those masks were highly effective at preventing transmission.

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Nana H

Ann, I am hopeful that Colorado can hold on to that plan but the national picture is growing bleak. As long as you can keep other Americans out of Colorado and keep people from Colorado in Colorado it may work out OK.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

There is, at best, only scant evidence indicating that reopening schools without precautions might be safe and to what extent (could be for kids, but what about for those around them?) and a lot of unknowns yet, so Rand Paul's opinion was basically just that, a poorly supported opinion (there's a study from China that documented the symptoms and outcomes of 34 hospitalized children in Hubei and some observational scraps here and there, none very rigorous). That's what he calls "the truth", apparently because that's what he wants to believe. Much depends on the level of infection in the area where a given school is -- they are almost certainly not going to be little islands of safety if infections are at elevated levels in their community, as Paul seems to imply. Here's some relevant points from this discussion:

An early look, from Geneva, suggests when we’re talking about children we need to distinguish between young children on the one hand and tweens and teens on the other. Published last week in the journal the Lancet, the study found very little evidence of prior Covid-19 infection among children ages 5 to 9 years (the youngest included). But children ages 10 to 19 were as likely to have antibodies to the infection as adults ages 20 to 49 — and more likely than adults older than that.

One thing that is clear is that the disease is generally far less severe for children than it can be for older adults. Deaths among children have been few and the percentage of children who need hospitalization for the illness is substantially lower than it is among adults.

But teasing out whether kids are as likely to catch the virus and spread it has been exceedingly difficult at a time when children are spending far less time mixing with others than they normally do.

“There is a huge puzzle over the dynamics in kids and what happens with kids,” said Nick Davies, an epidemiologist and mathematical modeler at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

“We don’t really have that one great database, piece of evidence, or experiment that has really settled this question,” he said.


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wildchild2x2

My grand kids are anxious to get back to school. The district is considering 4 different options. DD told me they have pretty much decided that unless the schools open up with time to play outside etc. at least somewhat as normal they will home school. They will have more of a normal childhood along with socializing in the homeschooling network than if the school set in place some of the measures they are considering. Her objections are no outdoor time, in the classroom for longer periods of time or a mix of distance learning with a few days in class. Both parents are very invested in my grand kids education and childhood development and they found distance learning at the elementary school level to be overly time consuming and stressful over normal home schooling which they are quite familiar with.

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heri_cles

I think social distancing or "Cooties" as we called it as children, stays with us to some extent.

Don't touch me or breathe near me bro...

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Ziemia(6a)

Anyone see any reports that backup this description?

". Rioters are congregating every single day lately - all around this country - as they then kill many teens and children of our country."

Plus, rioters congregate? All the past reporting I've seen shows them NOT congregating. Kinda the opposite.

PS I've seen no data backing up large protests as leading to upticks in coronavirus infections. 'Thinking' isn't all that us needed to develop a list of causes.

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Iris GW

^^ that's just fox/trump spin to gin up the fear. I've learned to read past it.

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Ziemia(6a)

Nana, so far around me the doubling of teachers is not listed as one of the solutions.

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cecily 7A

No, we're not increasing the number of teachers or classrooms. Some teachers will teach online classes and some will teach split (two days in school per week) classes. Teachers are being given a choice; obviously those with health concerns will receive their first choice assignment. I'll be in the building. Half of my kids will attend on M&W and half will attend on T& Th. Fridays will include planning time and a zoom meeting with both halves.

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Kathy

Cecily what school system are you in, if I might ask? Feel free not to answer.

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cecily 7A

a leafy suburb in northern Virginia ;)

Two days in school per week is the proposed plan for all of the DC suburbs. Many parents are complaining: they want five days per week in the building. Financially and logistically that's not going to happen.

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Kathy

I’m thinking It will be a combination in school and on the internet in many areas. It is the only way they can social distance students, imho.

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Ann

I've not heard a thing about the doubling of teachers.

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Ann

I just read this morning that another rather large school district in a Denver suburb has decided to open 5 days a week, in person (Cherry Creek Schools). Parents will be able to choose all online school and they have a couple weeks to decide which they want. Their decision will apply to the full year and I'd guess this is because of planning purposes. My guess is about 99% or higher will choose in person, but that's just my guess. I don't believe they have any half and half options. I've only read one article about it but that article seemed pretty clear.

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Kathy

Ann, did they clarify how social distancing will be implemented for full attendance?

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Marigold

Here in W Canada they are not talking of doubling teachers. In fact, teachers are in short supply in a lot of the province, so I think that would be impossible in any case. I think equality in education is going to be very difficult to achieve.
Some families will be just fine, whether their children attend school, they home school, or they choose e-learning.
Some children have really suffered during this time. Parents may have a phone, but the children don't have access to any bandwidth. The teachers were sending meals, pencils, paper, worksheets, etc home, and just replacing it each week, hoping the children would use some of it.
I hope they establish more than one system for children, because for some, school is their safe place. I hope they are able to develop a variety of formats, so some are in full time school, and others part time, depending on their situation. I am not sure the school district has the money or personnel to do that, though.

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Ann

Kathy, the students will wear masks and stay together as a class or grade. So, instead of lunches with the whole school, lunch will be with just your class or grade. Arrival times might be staggered by an hour or so (depending on grade level) to keep buses less crowded. No field trips. Classrooms will be cleared of all unessential furniture so desks can be spread out as much as possible. No locker use - only individual backpacks with personal supplies rather than shared supplies. These are just some examples of what I've read about my state.

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elvis

Kathy

Wearing masks at the protests has been instrumental in the fact that the protests have not caused a rise in cases in the cities such as NY.

...and your supporting evidence is based upon your quote from a report that says that "doctors speculate":

Many protesters in New York City and other major cities wore masks during demonstrations, and doctors speculate those masks were highly effective at preventing transmission.

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maifleur03

I do not know how the school districts did it when my niece was living with me in the early 1990s but she had one class that the teacher was at her high school but it was broadcasted to other school districts. Apparently there was a method that the students not in the class could ask the teacher questions and receive answers. If it could be done back then it could easily be done now. It was one of her AP classes but I do not remember which one. There are many online schools some are active classes others are recorded and can be played at any time. A combination would be good for younger students because they could then review what was actually said.

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Marigold

I think there will need to be a number of different formats. Elearning, like you describe, will be perfect for some, but they require electronics and bandwidth. I think there will need to be many different iterations to meet the needs of all the children

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Kathy

Elvis, are the numbers going up in NY?

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Kathy

Helen, the district my DD works in Florida provided laptops to some students who didn’t have internet access because of that lack at the end of last year. I can foresee districts providing wifi in the future to all students and possibly a tablet or pc depending on circumstances. If this is a long term virus we will be forced to adapt.

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cecily 7A

My district spent $30 million on laptops which will provide a take home laptop for all high school students. Wifi hot spots are set up at school parking lots. Younger kids will not receive a school issued computer. That's going to hurt my kiddos; we're a Title 1 school and our families can't provide devices and high speed internet for their children. On their days at home, they will complete worksheets, read and write in a journal.

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Marigold

Kathy, my daughters district supplied some laptops as well, but there were some households where they were pretty sure it would be like throwing them into a black hole. Those are the children she lays awake at night over, and who she hopes they can teach full time come fall.

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Ann

Helen, I have a family member who works half time as a reading tutor at a Title 1 school. In that capacity, she's working with the struggling students, often from families where the parent/parents are not at all involved in their children's education. She has been very concerned about her reading students since the shutdown. School was the best environment/part of their day for some of these students and it's a relief to her that school will be back in session in the fall - for the sake of these kids. Like you described, sending some of them home with a laptop would be useless.

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maifleur03

In giving out laptops the schools are also forgetting that some of the children may not have access to electricity. Are the schools having enough plug ins in the classroom so that the laptops can at least be partially charged? There may be some advantage to having a group provide rechargeable batteries that are capable of running for several hours.

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Kathy

I would have loved to be able to study from home. I had a 2 1/2 mile walk to high school and winter was unbearable walking into the wind. It was hard to make myself go in the morning. Some days I was lucky and got a ride but it was never assured. I hated it.

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chisue

A great nation needs an educated population. We give a lot of lip service to this. Then there's dear Betsy, enriching the for profit charter school owners with public funds.

My DIL's first years teaching junior high math were in Chicago's inner city. Every pupil there qualified for free meals. A small handful of kids lived with a relative; even fewer with a parent. My only solution for this is public funding of boarding schools -- ones set up like private ones, with the power to expel. that would be There are wonderful kids who could bloom, away from the self-perpeting climate of poverty, where the only 'career path' is crime. We could start saving generations with the money spent on prisons.

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Marigold

chisue, are you thinking of something like the residential schools that were set up for indigenous children? That didn't work out very well. They were a magnet for pedophiles, and the children lost touch with their families. At the time, it was considered progressive. In retrospect, it was horrific for many children


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maifleur03

North Carolina has a state boarding school. My step daughter attended it. She was in the second year class. Back in my mom and dad's youth it was not uncommon for rural people to attend small country schools for part or all of grade school then be sent to live in town either at the school or with families/widowed women who ran boarding houses for the students.

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