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Loba 2K Supra A.T. coating questions

Aglitter
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago

This is basically a re-finishing question about one of the most durable flooring coatings on the market in 2020. No stripping products nor instructions that I can find are provided by the manufacturer for the product's potential removal were it to be required, thus this post.

The scenario: Houzz discussion forums feature a number of posts from flooring pros like @SJ McCarthy talking about the superiority of Loba 2K Supra A.T. over other market competitors based on appearance, durability, and ease of application including quick cure time. My question is how this product might work in a non-standard application. Points are as follows:

  • Loba doesn't recommend any of its floor coatings for vertical surfaces, so they don't offer any technical information on doing so. A few pros have elsewhere online reported success using flooring coatings on vertical surfaces, usually to try to match the surrounding flooring finish.
  • Taking this a step further, suppose you wanted to use Loba in place where there were some intricately shaped surfaces like the example below from SJS Stair & Millwork LLC in Englewood, Colorado.
  • Also suppose you went ahead and applied the Loba 2K Supra A.T. to everything--stair treads, hand rail, and wall--and the application was both initially successful and worked great for a long time.
  • Then suppose you needed for some reason to strip the finish on everything and refresh it after 20 years or whatever.
  • How hard is it going to be to get the Loba 2K Supra A.T. off the shaped woodwork areas? Normally on a floor you would run a flat, mechanical sander over everything. Is there any hope of getting such a hard-wearing product off of this intricate woodwork in the future without intensive sanding? Could I use a stripping chemical? Could I hand sand well enough to preserve the shape of all the angles and curves yet still remove the product?

Hope that explains my question. thanks.


Comments (44)

  • live_wire_oak
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    You’d throw them away and start over. You’re not stripping that with chemical or sanding. Not unless it’s MEK in a professional dunk tank. Which would be silly. Stripping any clear coat and stain off of even flattish cabinet doors is a big problem. Which is why people paint 30 year old cabinets rather than refinish. The labor to do that costs more than buying new cabinets. It’s 10x painting cabinets. Putting that on woodwork like that is ridiculously permanent overkill. You either decide that it will be there forever, or you use a less durable and more refinishable product. Shellac. Tung oil. Danish oil. The traditional furniture finishes.

    Aglitter thanked live_wire_oak
  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    3 years ago

    The biggest problem applying a floor finish on vertical surfaces is "The Runs". It is non-stop, but can be done if, you can deal with it. Just apply several thin coats. You will need 5-6 coats to get the film build you need. Apply it like a wipe-on poly. Apply 2 coats per day. Do not buff until the final coat. That would be coat number 5 or 6. You will need to keep your eyes open for drips on every board that you coat.


    Refinishing won't be difficult since, the coatings will be on thin. You do need to use a decent sander - Festools come to mind. Or any sander that has at least a 1/2 hp motor and good quality ceramic sandpaper. The turned post and balusters will need a little stripper around the details. If, those panels are plywood, it will be tricky sanding the veneers.

    Aglitter thanked G & S Floor Service
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  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @live_wire_oak I love how you write sometimes, with lots of experience so very direct, and I cannot help but chuckle a little at the thought of dunking woodwork into a tank of MEK. Your comment rather lined up with my own impression that a finish as hard as Loba 2K Supra A.T. wouldn't ever need to be refinished or rather possibly couldn't be refinished with much success on intricate woodwork. This is actually not a staircase I'll be doing, but it's a kitchen with woodwork like the example (including a few hand-carved pieces), so I do need more protection than the lacquer, Danish oil, or tung oil would provide (also trying to avoid the yellowing effect of those options). I've seen a couple of reviews about the Loba product not holding up to water well, but the advice was that those users hadn't applied a sufficient number of coats (2 if done right but most usually 3 required), and that with at least 3 coats of sufficient mil thickness, the water and stain resistance would go into effect. Of course I'd go with more coats of thinner mil each on woodwork if I go that route.

    @G & S Floor Service Thank you so much for chiming in with your expert advice. I was looking at an 8-coat finish with Epifanes as a possibility, so 6 wouldn't be bad and would require much less curing time in between with the Loba 2K Supra A.T. than the 5-day gaps between Epifanes coats. It's nice to know based on your comment that I might be able to get the coating off if I really ever had to do it, but I'd love to make this a one-time application where the finish lasts for decades. I believe I can set it up to do most if not all of this horizontally prior to installation. Everything this finish will go on is solid wood.

    Thanks so much for everyone's expert help! Houzz is great!

  • PRO
    ProSource Memphis
    3 years ago

    Why not just use a cabinet finish g DH or cabinets? A Renner or Ilva exceeds KCMA testing standards.

    Aglitter thanked ProSource Memphis
  • SJ McCarthy
    3 years ago

    From my chats with Loba Technical support (both the chemists and the Quality Control people who test it on products) is the 2K Supra AT is treated like Aluminum Oxide. You start at a SUPER high-grit level (like picking at an solid block of ice...a sledge-hammer does nothing but an ice-pick will break it down if you have the time) and rough it up several times (on floors it can take several passes with the high-grit before you've broken through to create 'tooth' on the finish). Then you move down the the 'regular' sanding start-grit (60 or so) and move back up to your finish grit (120 or so).


    Imagine having to do that on a vertical surface. It would be an absolute nightmare to try to break through with the high-grit sanding to give it tooth. A couple of passes just to get to the regular 'starting point'.


    As for the water resistance, the more coats you have the more water it takes to pass through to the wood surface. Of course vertical surfaces don't have to worry too much about that. Water runs down and then drips on the counters. Most of it will drip off and then evaporate before it has a chance to pass through to the wood.

    Aglitter thanked SJ McCarthy
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @SJ McCarthy Thank you for the information from Loba Technical Support on the gradations of sanding. Given the brutal nature of the required removal sanding, it sounds like a chemical stripper would be necessary in my application were I to remove from a vertical surface. However, the whole point of looking at Loba 2K Supra A.T. is to put a "forever" finish on cabinetry and millwork anyway. It would be taking a risk to use something so permanent as the Loba that couldn't logistically be re-done, but then again doing something less permanent is also taking a risk that it might not last as long. Renovations are so ripe for risk especially when you anticipate living in the house for decades to come as I do and want improvements to outlast you. The Loba has a lot of the things I was looking for in a coating: hardness with elasticity, non-yellowing waterborne composition, the ability to roll/brush instead of spray, and longevity.

    Thanks also for the insight about the mil thickness resisting water. @G & S Floor Service suggested up to 6 thin coats to build up to the right resistance on a vertical surface. I'm also thinking of getting the Glossy and either leaving it that way or buffing the final coat. I'm hoping that the Loba has good chemical resistance as well as water resistance. Certainly I'll test it on sample wood for appearance, water, and chemical resistance before the real project. This thread at Floormasters seems to indicate that the Loba will excel in all those respects, and I'm sure Loba has its own testing data were I to seek it.

    @ProSource Memphis I'd love to use one of the Italian or English 2K waterbornes like Milesi, ICS-Ilva, Sayerlack, or Renner. The issue with all is that they are sprayed coatings and dry too quickly to roll/brush. Not that I cannot spray, but it would involve setting up a clean room, air filters, non-combustible fans, racks, and renting or buying a respirator and HVLP sprayer. A few pros have suggested using the 2K waterbornes without the hardener so you can roll/brush them, but that doesn't make good sense to me as I would lose both hardness and chemical resistance. It is rumored that some pros do this for the cabinetry box frames and then take the doors to their shops to spray them, thus cutting way back on the on-site prep time since you can roll/brush on site. Doing the coating ourselves is about the 4th option down the line of what my husband and I had originally planned. The quotes for our desired manufacturers with post-catalyzed conversion varnish finishes came back too high, our plan for wipe-on varnish failed testing, then our local cabinet builder with whom we placed our order (back when we assumed the wipe-on would work) had a finisher who told us he was going to spray one-part, oil-based lacquer and wouldn't hear of using anything else, so we will be picking up the cabinetry unfinished and here we are. There was an attempt to switch cabinet builders in there somewhere, but I digress.

    I do have a backup plan with an experienced finisher locally who is willing to work with me to spray an Italian coating if I want, but we're aiming to stay on budget so will attempt testing ourselves first, most likely with the Loba. Epifanes is a distant runner-up as it is a tung oil-based finish that can yellow and is soft with no going backward once that oil hits the wood, but their gloss finish is luscious. Thanks everyone so much for your incredibly helpful insight!

  • live_wire_oak
    3 years ago

    Don’t be penny wise and pound foolish. There is a reason that finishing the cabinets costs almost as much as the cabinets. It is far from easy. If you have found someone locally who is an actual cabinet finishers, jump on that with both feet and all hands. The skills that a person like that has were earned from mistakes. That’s where someone who will only do this once is at a huge deficit. You don’t have room for the mistakes that earn the skill badges. Hire the pro, and check the box off. Live with plywood counters for a year if you have to. But hire the proven result.

    Aglitter thanked live_wire_oak
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @G & S Floor Service Thanks again for your tips for the coatings on a cabinetry application. I'm planning 6 to 8 coats of Loba 2K Supra AT with a roll-and-brush-tip method to keep each coat thin, one coat per every 12 hours as you recommended. I believe this product has a wet edge life of about 15 minutes, but I figure less than that for my thin coats. No sanding required in between coats when done 12 hours apart, correct? I'll be doing filtered air flow through a dust-controlled booth. My question at this point is if I need a sealer underneath for a base coat? This is raw cherry wood, select grade. @SJ McCarthy you would know the answer to this as well, about sealer/primer. I want to thank you a million @SJ McCarthy for all your flooring and coatings advice on various threads in addition to this one, many of which I have cataloged for future reference.

    @live_wire_oak It's a long story, but trust me that my first plan from over a year ago included a conversion varnish factory coating, and if I could reasonably revise my current scenario, I would. Since I wrote my previous comment, I've determined that even the best coatings provider I can find locally would still not be ideal for several reasons (either wanting to spray on site and/or not being open to superior coatings), and I think this is the best track for my situation as it stands. I will be doing pre-testing to ensure the right result. I understand from other posts where you have contributed that you trust larger factory processes with expensive equipment to do the only truly reliable cabinetry coating job, and in your position as a professional designer I can certainly understand your wanting to ensure the best quality for your clients, so I'm not going to belabor my point of view here.

    The more I've learned about coatings, the more surprised I am at how few readily-accessible cabinetry providers at least in the United States are staying at the forefront of the curve of coatings technologies. As I understand, the 2K waterbornes from Milesi, Sayerlack, ICS-Ilva, ICA, Renner, CSC, and maybe a few other companies are where the progress is happening right now toward environmentally safe and durable coatings. Most major USA cabinet suppliers still use the 2K polys, and many smaller manufacturers are using one-part coatings that are failing on clients within a few years in kitchen environments. I'd be doing 2K Milesi or CSC (rumored to be better than Milesi for clear coats) if I were set up to spray, but the hardener additive shortens the wet edge life too much for a roll/tip method which I explained in more detail in a previous comment. Thanks everyone for your help!

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    3 years ago

    You can apply coatings every 4 hours, but do not exceed 3 within 24 hours. I would buff after 3 or 4 coats to smooth it out.


    Regarding sealer, You can probably get away with not using it, since the pieces are within 48". If, you have floor to ceiling panels. Those can get you in trouble with marks. You just need to make sure there are no hard stops and feather all the strokes.

    Aglitter thanked G & S Floor Service
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Thanks so much! I will buff every 3 coats, then, and keep that wet edge moving. Nothing is taller than 39". I had been planning to coat the fronts and backs of the doors at separate times, so I will try to keep my feather edge on the back side. I really appreciate the warning on that. Here is a photo of a spare sample door that will be among the woods I will be pre-testing with the full process. I appreciate everyone's help!


  • dani_m08
    3 years ago

    Following

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I spoke with a representative at the North American Loba-Wakol customer service department this morning and wanted to update this thread with new information. Regarding primer, there is another helpful discussion going on at this related thread about primer under white oak. Tannin pull is a concern with white oak, and since Loba 2K Supra A.T. is not self-sealing, a primer is absolutely required under this coating when applied to white oak. However, raised grain is also a concern with waterborne sealers, and the American Black Cherry I will be using is not immune to that. The Loba rep advised me to use sealer even with cherry wood. Loba EasyPrime would be the first recommendation, but the rep said it will darken the wood ever so slightly. Loba Invisible can be used as a sealing agent underneath the 2K Supra A.T. to "lock in the natural color of the wood," according to the rep, however, it is sounding like based on information available at the thread I linked above that the Invisible would not be as good at preparing the surface for the unique properties of a waterborne top coat plus preventing tannin pull as the EasyPrime would be. The rep advised me to use 2 coats of Invisible if I use that for a sealer. I believe 1 coat of EasyPrime is sufficient if using that product--see this YouTube video from City Floor Supply for tips on applying the Loba WS EasyPrime sealer. Both of these products will raise the grain, but the EasyPrime when used in conjunction with a topcoat within 1 hour will adhere well to create a glass-like coating so that any further buffing will be buffing of the finish, not the grain.

    Another tip is that Loba's UV-Protect, which can be added to any of Loba's waterborne finishes, doesn't work for the darker woods like cherry and mahogany. It was formulated for light woods like maple and birch to keep them from yellowing. There would be no benefit to adding UV-Protect to a coating for cherry.

    The rep also advised me regarding American Black Cherry, which is relatively a soft wood (at 950 on the Janka hardness scale) compared to many other woods used for flooring, that the Loba 2K Supra A.T. is a tough but flexible coating, so it is not likely to crack in the event of a dent to the cherry wood as might some other coating that dries to a hard shell.

    Here are photos from two demonstrations comparing the color change between the Loba WS EasyPrime versus a demonstration of the Invisible Protect products as potential sealants under the 2K Supra A.T. I do not see any appreciable color difference between the two potential sealants at least in these videos, which would lead me to want to attempt the WS EasyPrime for its superior properties as a waterborne sealant:





  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Adding to the above, after further review I have found reports that indicate the Loba Invisible Protect AT does dry down to a lighter final finish than the WS EasyPrime. The photos above show the finishes while still wet. The EasyPrime dried-down effect would be similar to taking a wet rag and wiping it over raw wood as to the darkening. EasyPrime offers superior properties as a primer compared to Invisible Protect, especially in regard to preventing side-bonding with water-based finishes and also in preventing tannin pull with white oak.

    Another factor when doing vertical surfaces with Loba products is that you must do thinner coats to prevent runs than you would be able to do with flooring. It isn't recommended to go beyond 1 coat of primer and 2 or 3 coats of 2K Supra AT on a floor due to thickness of the coating and adhesion issues. With Loba's 120 micron roller, you are supposed to be able to get 500 square feet to one gallon on floors. However, you can do up to 4 or 5 thinner coats on vertical surfaces and still be fine, at least according to a Loba-Wakol North American customer service representative to whom I spoke today.

    As to material requirements, I'm planning to add an extra gallon to my order based on the fact that multiple coats and at least one sanding will be needed. For an average 10'x10' kitchen, 1 gallon of primer and 2 gallons of top coat would be more than plenty, but due to the catalyzing action of the material, meaning that excess is difficult to save between coats, and the uncertainty of how many top coats will be needed to get a smooth final finish, I'll be going with 3 gallons of top coat. You only have 2 to 3 days to decide if you want to add another coat before the finish cures so hard that the project is no longer touchable, so to get another gallon on hand with shipping times if you needed it at the last minute would be impossible. @City Floor Supply is very competitive on pricing with Loba products and has a lot of instructional videos at YouTube, so I'll be placing my order with them. @SJ McCarthy has elsewhere recommended @iCork Floor as a supplier, but they don't offer the EasyPrime product, just the 2K Invisible Protect and 2K Supra AT top coats meant to go down straight on cork.

    For reference, I am cross-posting information about gloss levels that I supplied at this supplementary thread:

    Loba's Technical Data Sheets provide a numerical gloss rating for the finishes measured at 60 degrees on glass. Here is how the following finishes stack up:

    2K Invisible Protect, Approximate Gloss Level = 9

    2K Supra A.T. Satin, Approximate Gloss Level = 25

    2K Supra A.T. Semi-Gloss, Approximate Gloss Level = 43

    2K Supra A.T. Glossy, Approximate Gloss Level = 130

    What those numbers tell us is that the Invisible Protect is a tad shinier than a flat matte which would be considered anything at 5 or below measured at 60 degrees on glass. The Supra A.T. satin and semi-gloss finishes are consistent with their names, while the glossy is a super-high gloss almost like a mirror. There's a huge jump between the semi-gloss and gloss. The semi-gloss is on the low end of gloss, and the glossy is off the charts by some calculations on the high end of gloss. As mentioned previously in this post, the Loba satin finishes can look cloudy after several coats. Some people use gloss for the base and then finish off with satin, but that can make repairs difficult mixing sheens.

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    For anyone following this post, I wanted to update that I'm ordering Wooster roller covers #RR314 2-pack in the 4 1/2" length with which to apply the Loba WS EasyPrime and 2K Supra AT. The smallest roller that Loba produces is 6" wide, so the 4 1/2" wide from Wooster will be an advantage getting into crevices of the 5-piece doors and around corners, something that wouldn't normally be a concern with flooring applications. These Wooster roller covers are microfiber with a 3/8" nap and rated as the smoothest finish for high-gloss coatings produced by Wooster. They can be used with the mini Jumbo-Kote roller frames. I'm ordering online from Zoro, as this internet retailer seems to have excellent shipping times and products in stock, and these items are tough to find in stores. Purdy had a competing roller cover that looked good but got mixed reviews as to linting, with one person saying Purdy quality has gone down from previous years. A relatively new company named Clare also produces a microfiber mini roller cover that looked good but not as tight overall as either the Loba or Wooster. The Loba roller covers have a 3/8" nap, and some suppliers like @iCork Floor say you can go down to as little as a 1/8" nap for applying Loba waterborne products, but since I found these Wooster covers with excellent reviews for a spray-like finish at 3/8" nap, I am selecting them without hesitation. The idea is that the 3/8" nap holds enough product to lay down a sufficient mil thickness for the self-leveling compounds to work. If you lay down coats too thin, the self-leveling aspects won't work as well, and you'll need to do lots of coats which is more work and may compromise the durability of the coating. I do plan to coat every surface possible in a horizontal position and then shift for any two-dimensional work, so cabinet boxes will be laid on their backs, doors will be coated horizontally one side at a time, etc., until all coating is completed.

    Wooster also produces a roller cover called Super Doo-Z which many flooring suppliers offer for application of flooring products, and it does come in smaller sizes, but it's a woven cover, and Loba recommends the microfiber, so I'm sticking with the microfiber Micro Plush. This Wooster roller style also comes in a 10-pack in the 4 1/2" size, #RR514, but it's almost impossible to find that in stock online. The 2-packs are stocked widely online.


  • Laurence
    3 years ago

    @Aglitter Thanks for providing all the infos.


    Would you mind explaining what is a "wet edge life of about 15 minutes" ? I have been reading about the working edge time, and I have yet to find the meaning of it. I am painting vertical surfaces (door cabinets as well), and in the test, I'm seeing drips on the side of the door cabinets.


    And on what do you lay your door horizontally on so it doesn't glue?

    Aglitter thanked Laurence
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @Laurence Are you using Loba on a vertical door? I would not recommend that at all. If you are painting your cabinets a color, then you need a paint like Envirolak or INSL-X Cabinet Coat used with BIN primer. You can use painter's tripods upon which to rest a door, but the surface should be dry before flipping. I will be doing every single one of my surfaces horizontally and installing after coating is complete. The wet edge working life simply means that you can no longer brush or roll the coating past that point. Most modern coatings actually have a much shorter time than that before they start to get gummy. You should work in small sections and move on quickly to avoid overworking the finish. I recommend joining this Facebook group for more professional help with tips for your project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/diycabinetrefinishing

  • Laurence
    3 years ago

    @Aglitter

    Oh thanks for the wet edge working info, I keep reading it on houzz and wasn't able to find the definition.


    I am testing the Loba but on kitchen door cabinets. So I can lay them horizontally while they dry. I like the raw version of white oak, but I find that the Invisible 2k protect still ambers and yellows the white oak a little bit. I've tried another version where I mix WS easy primer mixed with whitener before putting on the Invisible 2k protect, which lessens the ambering and yellowing effect slightly, but not enough - if the wood sample is very pale to begin with, it works great, however for darker samples it's not light enough to my taste. Do you think I would get a better result with bona natural? I really love the raw look of the white oak.

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @Laurence Bona already has whitener added to I think at least the Naturale line, so you probably would get more of a masking effect of the wood's natural color with Bona. However, you can also increase the amount of whitener that you use with Loba and probably get the same effect. The Loba itself isn't adding any color to the wood. Simply the fact of getting it wet with the finish coat is what you are seeing. It's the same as if you took a damp rag and wet the white oak. There is another active thread here at Houzz that talks about using Loba's 2K Invisible AT as the primer layer which locks in the natural color. I think that's probably what you want. The Loba WS EasyPrime that darkens the wood slightly is a better sealer actually and will guarantee less of a chance of tannin pull with white oak, but if you put on a sufficiently thick first layer of Loba 2K Invisible Protect AT, then you can also hopefully avoid tannin pull with white oak and get as natural of a look as possible using it in place of a sealer layer. Beware that some people have had tannin pull using Loba Invisible AT as the sealer layer. The first coat has to be thick enough to help prevent this. Then you would follow up with several top coats of Loba 2K Supra AT. The sequence would be 2 coats of Loba Invisible AT, then sand, then 2 to 3 coats of Loba 2K Supra AT with at least one more sanding prior to the top coat. Check this thread for more details on that process: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5735916/loba-supra-2k-at-combo#n=72

  • Laurence
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @Aglitter

    Thank you for such a detailed answer.

    I agree about Bona, I feel that it would look like a white mask on top of the wood.

    Yes I see in your link where G & S Floor Service mentions to apply 1.5 x the coverage for the first coat of loba to prevent Tannin pull. Is it going to level out if I put so much?

    So far for me, the best way to counter the ambering effect of the Loba (I suppose any varnish would too) has been to add the whitener to the sealer, but it's still not the same as raw wood ^^. The problem is that some portions of the white oak that I have is slightly darker, whereas I am fine with the bits that are lighter :( I'm thinking of going back and choosing a lighter white oak, but the problem with Covid right now is that the wood distributors don't let you choose the planks that you want (no touching).

  • PRO
    ProSource Memphis
    3 years ago

    There is always laminate or Thermofoil if you want it to be permanently pale. Oak ambers as it ages. Not just immediately with the finishing. Nothing you do will counteract that. Nothing.

    Aglitter thanked ProSource Memphis
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    You can also add a Loba WS UV-Protect agent to help prevent the UV-initiated ambering. It won't work for darker woods but would help with oak and maple. This is a Loba product that can be added to whatever waterborne finish you are using.

    @Laurence I edited my comment above to say that I believe it is actually the Bona Naturale line of products that I have read about having a whitener added already. You can experiment with the Loba products and whitener until you get your desired effect. The ratio for Loba 2K waterborne products is 10:1. So, you would put as few as 10 teaspoons of the main coating along with 1 teaspoon of the hardener and then add your whitening agent proportionally and test. You can also get a larger square of material to do testing on, which is a great idea. In that case, Loba makes pre-marked plastic containers that help you measure out a larger proportion of 10:1 product for sampling. You can also measure out the proportions by weight.

    As to putting on a heavier top coat of Loba Invisible Protect AT to use as a sealer, it is actually the thicker layers of product that can achieve self-leveling. If you put on the product too thin, the self-leveling will not work as well or at all if it is very thin. There are a few videos on YouTube by City Floor Supply showing the proper application of Loba waterborne products, and I recommend you watch all of them, probably several times each, before launching into your project. They offer invaluable tips you won't find anywhere else.

    I think it's possible you could end up with a finish you like if you do use the Loba 2K Invisible Protect AT as a sealer layer and then put Loba 2K Supra AT on top. The Invisible will lock in the wood's natural color. If you add the WS UV-Protect, that will help slow the wood's natural aging process. There comes a point when you do need to realize that white oak and red oak can actually be very similar in look, so much to the degree that the wood sometimes needs to be tested to confirm which variety it is. Oak does tend to age to a yellow or orange hue over time. The fact that "white" is in the name of "white oak," can be misleading, I think, because it is not a white wood. If you really want a pure light floor, you might reconsider your overall flooring plans and maybe go with something different. Wood has natural variances, and unless you go with a very high-end flooring option like Listone Giordano, you'll need to accept a significant percentage of imperfections as part of a natural product.

  • SJ McCarthy
    3 years ago

    Loba products, as far as I remember, are self-leveling. Even a substantial 'wake' wave will smooth itself out within 24 hours (or so). Liquids find their own level. It's why swimming pools can have a deep and and a shallow end but the surface looks flat and level.

    Aglitter thanked SJ McCarthy
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Thanks for the comment, @SJ McCarthy I am also making note of something you said in another thread, that Windex original can be used with the Loba waterborne finishes to get any oil stains off. Otherwise, use water for cleaning. I think Loba makes a cleaner for its waterborne finishes, but I cannot find it available anywhere. Of course I'll be trying to keep my new finish on my cabinetry as clean as possible so that as little cleaning as possible will be necessary. I'm even planning a 2" overhang for the countertop rather than the standard 1 3/4" to add to the drip protection.

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    My cabinet arrival was delayed, so I'm just now starting on this project today and reviewing all advice. @G & S Floor Service says I can do as many as 3 coats per 24 hours, but @SJ McCarthy is talking about self-leveling still going on with a single coat up through 24 hours. With my project having multi-dimensional surfaces, I was planning to coat each surface horizontally and let dry for 2 to 3 hours, then rotate and repeat with most surfaces getting 2 coats per day, approximately 12 hours apart. However, I don't want to mess up any leveling action. Any last-minute input is most welcome.

    It's interesting that Loba's products don't ship with any label instructions, so I'm also reviewing their website for instructions as well as @City Floor Supply's excellent Loba application YouTube videos featuring Tom Zagula. Getting the right mil thickness with not all surfaces being completely flat is going to be the biggest challenge, having never seen an application of this product in person for reference, and Loba's technical sheets don't specify a finished mil thickness. Loba is recommending coverage of 500 to 600 square feet per gallon and then 4 layers of primer-plus-3-topcoats which works out to 3 mils per coat or a total of 12 mils.

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    I'm in the middle of my project now and encountering an extreme number of bubbles in the finish. Here's a new thread detailing that issue: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6032820/how-to-get-rid-of-bubbles-in-loba-2k-supra-at

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    I want to update this post to say that later in the process, I experienced bubbling from high humidity. A dehumidifier run in the paint booth between coats should take care of this issue.

  • Susanne McEvoy
    2 years ago

    Loba does ship with instructions, they are on the underside of the label attached to the plastic jug, in english, french and spanish (forCanada/ NA)

    Aglitter thanked Susanne McEvoy
  • HU-682208261
    last year

    Im not sure if anyone can help me as this is an old thread. i am refinishing my floor, I bought loba loba 2k supra A.T satin.

    question 1: I did not order the universal roller and we have no hardwood store near me. Can I use a roller from homedepot or lowes those are the stires near me.

    2- After applying the easy prime , wait an hour and apply my first coat of Finish right?

    3 wait 24 hrs - sand with 150 grit , clwan agin and apply my second which is my coat ?

    4 I turned off my central heat , do I turn it on after applying each coat to help it dry ?

    5 the sanding inbetween coat, can just use my hand to sand it as I would have returned the home depot square orbital sander that I rented.

    thank you so much for helping.


  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    last year

    Use Arroworthy 1/4" nap microfiber roller. Purchase one for each coat to avoid cross contamination. You can purchase at your local paint store. You will need synthetic sash brushes for cutting in along edge. You will need one for each coat. I recommend a 2" sash brush. Arroworthy red frost are good quality brushes for floor finishes. Can pick up at Home Depot.


    I would allow easy prime to dry a minimum of 4 hours under good drying conditions. 6 or more for bad.


    I usually buff with 220 grit since, i use machines to do the work. If, you plan to hand buff, I recommend 180 grit. If, you own a hand held orbital, use 220 grit.

    Aglitter thanked G & S Floor Service
  • HU-682208261
    last year

    Thank you so much for your time G&S flooring. I bought a gallon of the finish, I read it is only good for 2 hours after the dding the hardner. Can i split it into half and add half of the hardner as im only refunishing 250 square ft , then I can use the other half after 6 hours or what do you suggest? thank yiu again.

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    last year
    last modified: last year

    @HU-682208261 I would strongly encourage you to wait on this project until you can order the Loba rollers. They really are different from most anything else you can get in stores. They are lint-free microfiber rollers, but they have a really full nap to them, and they are designed specifically for Loba coatings to give you just the right amount of coverage to allow the Loba fluid to self-level. If you don't get enough fluid on the floor, then you won't get the self-leveling mechanism to work, and the flooring may not be smooth. It is true that you will need a new roller and edge brush for every coat (except EasyPrime, which tools can be washed but will leave a bit of a coating behind; keep them for any future coats of EasyPrime only). Get extra rollers and brushes because sometimes the coating can begin to congeal on the tools before you are done, and you want to have extra tools on hand in case they become unusable mid-coat, although with covering only 250 square feet that is unlikely here unless you work very slowly which you should avoid. Yes, you absolutely can mix smaller amounts. The ratio is 10 to 1 of base to hardener. Loba does provide a custom batch mixing jar to make the ratio easy, but you can also use other measuring supplies like containers from paint supply stores or kitchen supply stores that have markings. Only mix what you need because there is no guarantee a catalyzed coating will stay viable beyond even an hour depending on how it is stored, the temperature, and other conditions. In terms of the EasyPrime, that primer is meant to be applied very close in time to your first top coat. Look up videos from City Floor Supply by Tom Zagula about how this is to be done. You apply the EasyPrime and then about 1 hour later, you want to apply your first coat of Loba 2K Supra AT. The maximum window for that hot coat is 2 hours depending on conditions and how thick your first coat of EasyPrime is. It may take a little bit longer than 1 hour (like 90 minutes) for it to dry up. G&S Floor commenting earlier has a lot of experience with this, so maybe they have applied top coats to the EasyPrime after that 2-hour maximum that Tom Zagula states in the YouTube videos, but I have done multiple coats now with the EasyPrime first and then the first coat of 2K Supra AT 1 hour later, and it has worked very well. Remember these are waterborne coatings, so you must get adequate thickness for them to self-level, and you also must not overwork the coating. Pass your roller or brush only two times over the coating and then walk away. There is much more to technique which you can learn from watching the City Floor Supply YouTube videos by Tom Zagula.

    Also, Loba recommends sanding at 180 grit between coats. For just 250 square feet, yes, it is possible to do this by hand with sanding blocks, but dust removal may be a challenge, and remember all your top coats should be laid down no more than 24 hours apart to maximize adhesion, and sanding by hand will add to the time it takes to process each coat. The top coats will begin to harden and become difficult to sand prior to 24 hours in some conditions, so get in there and sand as soon as the coating has reached a sandable hardness, sometimes as soon as 12 hours. You need to get each surface coat as completely dust-free as possible to avoid imperfections in your coating, and that is easier with a Festool or some other type of strong vacuum system used with sanding. I actually used light-tack blue painter's tape to lift off dust between coats on my project. You cannot slide blue tape on top coats or it will leave sticky residue behind; you must bounce it over the top. My project pieces were small, so for a floor, this approach may be time-prohibitive. For maximum durability, apply EasyPrime with a hot coat of 2K Supra AT one hour later, the next top coat within 24 hours, and a final top coat another 24 hours after that. You will be coating your floor 4 times with the primer and top coats included. I am not sure one gallon of the top coat is enough for 3 top coats, though you should be able to do 2 top coats, but 3 is preferred. I would buy an extra gallon of 2K Supra AT before you start to be safe, since adding top coats after 24 hours isn't recommended, and it may take a while to source extra product after you begin. Loba specifications say that 1 gallon of 2K Supra AT covers 500-600 square feet per gallon per coat, so if you happen to lay it down a tad thicker than expected or if your room calculations are off any, you will barely have enough for just 2 top coats.

  • HU-682208261
    last year

    @Aglitter thank you so mych for your response. so how long do you waot betwern the first finish and the second finish?

    Aglitter thanked HU-682208261
  • HU-682208261
    last year

    @Aglitter i totally understand your first resp now. thank you

  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    last year

    @HU-682208261 You roll the Loba EasyPrime. Then 1 hour later, you roll the Loba 2K Supra AT. There is NO SANDING between the EasyPrime and first coat of 2K Supra AT; 2 hours is the maximum time you should wait between those coats, but 1 hour is best. Then within 24 hours, you sand with 180 grit and roll a 2nd coat of 2K Supra AT. Then within another 24 hours, you sand with 180 grit and roll your final coat of 2K Supra AT.
    Watch this video on how to use EasyPrime: https://youtu.be/HAFfYd5zwqA
    Watch this video on how to use 2K Supra AT: https://youtu.be/ut1yAIe9f0w

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    last year

    You have a minimum of 2 hours of drying and 48 hours to hot coat without sanding or buffing. You can still have wet spots after 1 hour, At the 1 hour mark, you can mash up your finish. too risky.


    The finish is good for 48 hours for chemical bond. Ideally you want to avoid coating close to the 48 hours mark since, the chemical bonding attribute will diminish. You have a higher risk of poor to no adhesion around the 48 hour mark.


    If, you are going to split your finish, keep it simple. Split it in quarters. 1 gallon equals 4 quarts. It will be easier to estimate your harder and square footage in quarters. It's always good to have a little more than less.


    Any leftover after it is mixed, toss it out or use it all in the first place. If, you are tossing out leftovers, you are wasting money. But, if, you use it all, the finish on the floor will last longer. So, you are saving money.


    If, you have 250 square feet to work with. Purchase two gallons. You will use 3 quarts per coat. 1 quart will cover 100 square feet.

    Aglitter thanked G & S Floor Service
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    last year

    @G & S Floor Service The Loba 2K Supra AT itself cannot be hot coated within an hour. I was advising above ONLY about the Loba EasyPrime being designed for a hot coat at one hour, maximum two hours. Please watch this video by Tom Zagula who was promoted in 2022 to Business Manager of Loba Flooring for Loba North America about the proper application method for EasyPrime: https://youtu.be/HAFfYd5zwqA

  • HU-682208261
    last year

    @Aglitter @G & S Floor Service

    this is my forst coat , thank so much for your help , i sinc appappreciate it. first coat done 8pm , can second be done around 4pm this evening since it is within 24hrs?



    Aglitter thanked HU-682208261
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    last year
    last modified: last year

    Yes, absolutely get that second 2K Supra AT top coat down before 24 hours has elapsed or it will start to be too hard to either sand or hot coat. If you aren't fussy about how smooth it is, like @G & S Floor Service said above, you can hot coat without sanding. Most people would want to sand and remove dust for the best finished surface effect.

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    last year

    @Aglitter I have known Tom since 2010, before Loba introduced AT. Have had many conversations with him regarding Loba products. He has helped me quiite a bit with my professional development.


    I use a lot of different water base brands and like to practice one application standard for all the finishes. I understand, that some products may allow you to hot coat at a sooner time. But, rather than confuse all the products technical application. I adopt one that will fit all. This helps avoid a lot of common finishing issues. The most common and best lessons learned from all the product reps is patience and to take my time.

    Aglitter thanked G & S Floor Service
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    last year
    last modified: last year

    With due respect for your vast professional experience, I stand by the EasyPrime application technique in the video linked above, having done this on a couple of dozen surfaces with great success, and encourage you to reconsider, based on how the product was designed by the manufacturer. It will actually cut your time, make you more money in the long run, and be better for the customers' adhesion and wear overall to apply as specified. Call Tom up for a chat on this if you like.

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    last year

    I am sure this technique has it's advantages on smaller projects. I am not discounting it. I preferr to take the time on projects 500 sf. and up. Next time Tom is doing a demo in my area, I will chat with him then.

    Aglitter thanked G & S Floor Service
  • HU-851093623
    2 months ago

    I accidentally applied the 2K Supra AT without the hardener as the first coat vs the WS EasyPrime. I there any option from her vs starting all over with resanding the floor?

    Aglitter thanked HU-851093623
  • Aglitter
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    Actually, I think you might be fine to move forward with your final 2 coats of Loba 2K Supra AT (for 3 coats total). One of the exceptions to this is if you need something to prevent side bonding with your wood. Look up side bonding and then figure out if you think it is going to be a problem for you in your climate. That's the main thing that the WS EasyPrime prevents is side bonding; in addition, it brings out a rich wood color and helps the first coat of Supra AT to go on more evenly. If you like the color that you have now and side bonding is not a huge concern, then you would probably be better off to move forward rather than trying to sand that floor down again as that could create some brand new issues for you.

    It's probably not the end of the world that you skipped the hardener on the first coat. If anything, it might make the upper two layers a little more prone to impact, but this coating has a lot of flex built into it, and if you can live with the risk, it might be acceptable for your application. If this is an expensive home with a heavy grand piano or big dogs with claws, then reconsider leaving that first coat unhardened. Also, if this is an area where heavy appliances will be moved or set, I would also consider a re-do.

    Although I've worked a lot with WS EasyPrime and Loba 2K Supra AT, I'm not a professional, and Loba has an excellent customer service department, at least in the USA where I have utilized it, so if you are able to call and talk to a company representative, that would be the best option for professional advice on your situation.

    You may find it interesting to know that Loba makes a product called 2K InvisibleProtect AT which is designed to be used alone, without primer, in order to keep the wood as natural a color as possible. Some people have had issues trying to apply InvisibleProtect AT without a primer first, but it can be done. The 2K Supra AT is not usually used for this because it does impart more of a darkening effect than the InvisibleProtect AT--therefore primer doesn't take away from the final effect when Supra AT is used, and there are benefits to primer (side bonding prevention mainly), so it is standard procedure to use the WS EasyPrime under Supra AT. Note that Supra AT is overall more durable than InvisibleProtect AT, though both are outstanding finishes.