bump
anyone?

Didn't see this, E.

What you want to do always trumps what might be best for the plant's future in terms of vitality and/or eye appeal. In this case, health isn't a pressing consideration, so I'll answer in terms of what I would do, which is almost always with eye appeal in mind, which (for me) follows the always critical concern for vitality.

I would guess that more than 95% of hobby growers either lose their tree before it gets too tall, or it gets too tall and they indiscriminately cut it back to whatever ht they like. If you can keep a ficus alive and reasonably healthy, being 'too short' is a very short-lived condition. You have in front of you a clear delineation between summer and winter growth; the difference is immediately discernible. If the tree more than doubled it's ht during the most challenging interval of the growth cycle (late fall to mid-spring ..... by the calendar) Imagine what it might do during the summer (if it's not root bound, which significantly limits extension growth). By fall, you'll be looking to shorten it again, and you'll be even more reluctant to cut it back to last summer's tight growth. Most people (when it gets too tall) would prune off the tight growth you'll get this summer, so you'll be stuck with the lanky growth.

The second consideration is - there are dormant branches in every leaf axil and above every leaf/bundle scar. If later you chop it back to lanky growth, the number of branches you have to select from would only be 1/3-1/4 the number offered by the tight growth. Personally, I'd chop it now without a second thought.

Your 'Audrey' could be the perfect visual example of what I'm explaining when I suggest the long, lanky growth be habitually removed about this time of the year. When you get out of pruning rhythm, it decreases the chances you'll end up with a great specimen and increases the difficulty. I think what you really want most is a tree that looks good and not necessarily one that grows-a-lot, so why sacrifice eye appeal on the altar of growth?

Changing gears - do you have an idea of what you want your 'Audrey' to look like in a few years?

Al

hi Al,
I agree the lanky winter growth should go now, I'll do that right after I repot into the 5-1-1 mix in the next few days. Or, if I air layer to propagate the tops, does that induce the same back-budding response in the plant? Actually back to my original question too about the thickening of the etiolated trunk... is that going to be an issue for the new propagated plant? Will the base thicken nicely with time?

As for what I want my Audrey to look like... I don't have a very clear vision. I just like nice plants. I think I will keep the two trunks together for now, and train the new leader for the taller one to go vertical right away so that I can eventually have it as a tree-form, while keeping the shorter one more bushy.

I mentioned before in another post, I always just thought plants do their thing and some are more"quirky" than others, and I always thought you just take what the plant gives you. LOL. Now that I know that's not the case, I want to take charge of the plants but I don't have much vision for what to do with them. I look at photos for inspiration and I like such a variety of forms. I'm sure with time it will get easier to "see" the future plant.

Thanks again for taking the time to help!

Elena

..... if I air layer to propagate the tops, does that induce the same back-budding response in the plant? Not until the layer is separated from the parent plant. Most of the growth regulator that suppresses lateral growth (back-budding) is synthesized in the apices (growing tips of branches and stems), but all plant tissues synthesize auxin. The flow of auxin is polar, meaning it flows only downward, so even if you remove the apical meristem (tip top of the trunk) enough auxin will enter the sap stream (from leaves proximal to the pinched out trunk tip) to suppress growth further down the trunk. As your plant is now, if you pinch out the tip including the top leaf, you'll likely get back-budding in the 3 leaves immediately proximal to the pinch. It's possible 1 or 2 of the lower branches will break back, but as you move proximally from the pinch, the stimulation to back-bud decreases as leaves still attached to the trunk add auxin to the sap stream. Actually back to my original question too about the thickening of the etiolated trunk... is that going to be an issue for the new propagated plant? Not at all. Will the base thicken nicely with time? Yes.

As for what I want my Audrey to look like... I don't have a very clear vision. I just like nice plants. I think I will keep the two trunks together for now, and train the new leader for the taller one to go vertical right away so that I can eventually have it as a tree-form, while keeping the shorter one more bushy. As you wish.

I mentioned before in another post, I always just thought plants do their thing and some are more"quirky" than others, and I always thought you just take what the plant gives you. LOL. Now that I know that's not the case, I want to take charge of the plants but I don't have much vision for what to do with them. I look at photos for inspiration and I like such a variety of forms. I'm sure with time it will get easier to "see" the future plant. Plants are very predictable in how the respond to stimuli, especially pruning. You would be so amazed at how much strategy can be involved in bringing a tree to the point it literally evokes emotion when someone looks at it. These images represent 5 years of work after the tree was lifted (dug up) after 4 years in one of my raised beds devoted to bonsai candidates.

Note the tree with the big white wound where the trunk was chopped off:

The following spring:

The next spring, styling has started. By the time it's ready for a bonsai pot, the wounds will have healed:

Late spring of '19. It's come a long way, but it's still a baby. You can see where the trunk was chopped back 3 times for the sole purpose of creating a fat trunk that tapers quickly toward the top, which gives the illusion of greater age. This tree is about 10 years old from seed

Thanks again for taking the time to help! My pleasure. Helping other growers get more for their efforts has become an extension of my own growing experience and I find it richly rewarding.

Al

hm... maybe I won't air layer then.

"As you wish."
My first interpretation when I read that was "well that's the wrong answer but go ahead" LOL. I know there's no 'wrong' answer, but what would you do?

Thanks,

Elena

The "As you wish" just meant that I'd be down for whatever you'd want to do with it - I'm neutral.

Do you know if the planting consists of 2 separate trees, or was it one cutting with a bifurcation that gave rise to the double trunk? and, are you going to grow it as a double trunk tree for ever and ever?

Al

Hi Al,
It's two separate cuttings, I potted up last fall and the two pretty much just fell apart from each other, roots were not intertangled at all. I'm giving more and more thought to splitting them up now actually.

Slightly off topic: are there any ill effects to using the larger pine bark pieces as a top dressing on top of the 5-1-1 mix in the pots? Just a thin layer, and not for the typical moisture retaining reasons, but because it protects the mix a bit when my toddler helps me water the plants.

Thanks,

Elena

hi Al,
I repotted them in separate pots and the newer leaves and stems are all floppy now :(. It's most noticeable one the one on the right in the attached photo (which has been pushing out leaves for the last few weeks). Is this normal? Anything I can do but wait? I didn't prune yet cuz I thought I should let the new leaves coming in to get a bit bigger first.

The roots on this were not great.. I actually found a bunch of rotten roots but I'm not sure if that's recent or what. I also wasn't sure how to root prune because many thicker roots had fine roots at the tips after 8" or so of length without any fine roots branching off. But I ended up cutting lots of that off because they were just too long, so maybe I removed too many fine roots?

Thanks,

Elena

Elena,

Your ficus Audrey looks lovely! How long have you had it and what area or zone do you live in? Also, where do you typically place it? I got one in april and it hasn’t done anything. I did over water it one time and I damaged a leaf but have since repotted (minus root pruning) into a terracotta pot in 5-1-1 mix so I’m hoping that’ll help.

I don’t have any tips for you but you have the master ficus grower helping you so you’ll be better off anyway ;P

GL!

hi Caitlin,
Thanks for the kind words! I've had this since the fall, maybe October? It was less than half it's current height when I got it. I potted it up at the time into a terra cotta pot (this was probably unnecessary). I had it in a southern window when it was inside, it got a bit of direct sunlight in the mornings. It's been outside now for a few weeks in a spot that gets sun till about 1pm, and dappled shade after that. I'm can't wait to prune it and see it backbud!

I will note, the issue with the leaves that were floppy was likely due to being placed in the sun. I knew not to place it in the sun after the repot but thought that the spot with morning sun is no big deal (I was wrong). It's better now, the leaves picked themselves up :)

I live in Hamilton (near Toronto, Ontario, Canada), I think it's zone 6?

How did the roots on yours look when you repotted? Is it getting any direct sun?

Elena

..... are there any ill effects to using the larger pine bark pieces as a top dressing on top of the 5-1-1 mix in the pots? Just a thin layer, and not for the typical moisture retaining reasons ..... There's no significant reason not to. It just slows evaporative water loss from the soil, which would be a negative if you were using a water-retentive medium, and of little consequence for the 5:1:1 mix which holds less water.

I repotted them in separate pots and the newer leaves and stems are all floppy now :(. What I see in the image wouldn't be filed under the heading "all floppy", and a little wilting isn't at all unusual. Anything I can do but wait? Yes - you can do your pruning/chop now. Many growers are fond of dogmatically repeating the conventional belief that cutting back the top is counterproductive to root regeneration. That's true if we take for granted the entire plant won't collapse completely due to a compromised root system or one that lacks volume enough to satisfy the water needs of the canopy, that's what often happens. Plus, the idea you shouldn't try to balance the root/shoot ratio when transplanting is based on plants in nursery cans or those in balls with burlap, in which the root/shoot ratio is already in balance. Further, in many cases where you (used collectively) don't make an effort to balance the root/shoot ratio and where the tree survives, the tree might shed whole primary branches important to the composition. These reasons are why I recommend doing your already planned chops asap.

I was answering your questions as I read them, so only now did I find out the mild wilting was resolved without an intervention. Still, cutting the tree(s) back now will reduce the amount of time it will take for the serious back-budding to occur. You should be able to put them back in the sun by the weekend.

Thanks, Caitlin! That was a nice compliment.

Al

Elena,

So exciting! I pruned my ficus Lyrata a few weeks ago and it is shooting out new buds! lt was a little scary because I cut it back quite a lot but I decided to trust the process and it is definitely doing What it’s supposed to do. Good luck! Would love to see you update on how it goes!

The roots looked very strong and healthy. I Think I caught it and fixed it pretty quickly (it’s a precious commodity haha). It gets ”direct” sun through a floor to ceiling East facing window in the morning and then distant west sunlight in the afternoon. I just wonder if it’s not enough... I started acclimating it outside last week but then we had some huge wind storms and hail the second half of the week so it’s been Inside. I plan to start acclimating it outside again as the weather starts to warm back up.

You said the root systems On your ficus Audrey seem to be separated... Are you planning to separate the two trunks? That would give you two babies to work with which would be fun!

caitlin :)

Al,
I agree, I definitely panicked about the slight wilting.

I've been trying to find the "right" answer about when to prune the top relative to the roots... it seems there is so much conflicting advice on this, even from yourself on various posts, but I suppose various conditions warrant different actions? The most often recommended schedule seems to go like this:

1. put outside early June (if temps allow) to build up energy
2. root prune and repot 3rd week of June
3. chop top a few weeks after repot to give roots a chance to establish

But based on your comment above, I feel I might have misunderstood something?

In my case, I also wanted the new baby leaves to mature a bit before I chop it, as I want to try to propagate them.

Caitlin,
Yes I've already separated them (you can see that in the "floppy" photo above). I am certainly excited for them!

The indoors conditions for your Audrey sound way better than mine! I'm sure it will start putting out growth soon! Are you fertilizing? As recommended by Al on this forum, I use Foliage Pro.

Elena

So sorry! I missed that post somehow but I do see that you separated them. They look awesome! Nice thing is you have two to work and experiment with Now :).

i just received some foliage pro In the mail. It’s hard to come by where I live in Utah (also zone 6). hopefully it will start growing. At this point it’s in the best conditions I can give it so I feel theres no reason it shouldn’t stay growing.

interested to see Al’s input on root and branch pruning... I did mine (on my flf) at the same time.

Well actually I pruned a few weeks back but I was overly conservative. Decided to repot, root prune, bare-root, etc. then I trimmed back some other branches to be more aggressive... guess we’ll see what happens. my FLF seems to be the guinea pig most of the time.

I wonder how well the ficus Audrey propagates... are you going to propagate in water or some other media? l currently have a ficus burgundy and Lyrata in water just about ready to place in pots.

I have never successfully rooted in soil except with my monstera adansonii. I do fuss over mine a lot too so I think that’s partly why I haven’t been successful. I usually place a bag over it to add humidity as well but I tend to have mold problems with that technique. must doing something wrong. ive never searched the forum a for propagating techniques so thanks for that idea ;)!

Too bad you aren’t closer! several of my local nurseries sell them (burgundy, ruby, and tineke) for a very good price.

I find most nurseries have more tropicals in the fall, right now there's so much for outdoor gardening but not as much indoor / houseplant stuff. I haven't been madly searching for a Burgundy, just looking around to see if i could find a small one or cuttings. Frankly my indoor space is running out so I probably shouldn't get anything big at all.

I haven't had any mold issues with my soil propagation. Maybe your initial soil conditions are too wet? Though in my case when that happens, the cuttings just rot.

Elena

Caitlin - All plants in the Moraceae (mulberry) family are easy to propagate.

Elena says she's ..... been trying to find the "right" answer about when to prune the top relative to the roots... it seems there is so much conflicting advice on this, even from yourself on various posts, but I suppose various conditions warrant different actions? The most often recommended schedule seems to go like this:

1. put outside early June (if temps allow) to build up energy
2. root prune and repot 3rd week of June
3. chop top a few weeks after repot to give roots a chance to establish

But based on your comment above, I feel I might have misunderstood something?

In my case, I also wanted the new baby leaves to mature a bit before I chop it, as I want to try to propagate them. Usually, I'm discussing Ficus on a tree by tree basis, and the vitality level of the tree is a primary consideration in how to approach certain operations in order to ensure the tree's well being. It also means I'll suggest different strategies for what might seem to be the same circumstances. Overall, I'm very consistent in what I suggest, and I think you'll be able to see that as time goes on (and you stick around as a forum participant). Where you live can cause quite a variation in what I might suggest as well.

I've stopped trying to acclimate any of my Ficus, even the more valuable trees. This year, I moved them outside into full sun exposures may 22-24, which is earlier than normal by 1-2 weeks. The weather forecast was such I figured it would work. Many of the leaves burned and have been shed, but a new foliage is replacing all the old leaves. Your enumerated list is fine, but you can prune hard before or after you root prune/repot. If I prune first, I wait to repot until back-budding is well underway. I also suggest you don't remove the leaves with branches in the axils until the first leaf on the new branch is starting to open. Basically, if your tree is healthy, you have a lot of leeway when it comes to the harder work like hard pruning or especially repotting. Pot up any time, but the late spring/summer months are still a much better choice for that. Timing, so you're working with the plant's summer strength and allowing for late fall through early spring weakness by avoiding heavy work is always a good way to plan.

It does no good to allow immature leaves to mature before you take a cutting or establish a layer. In fact, in most cases, I defoliate cuttings heavily or altogether, even going as far as removing all but the top leaf and then cutting that leaf in half across venation.

I suggest you guys look into acquiring a F retusa. They are EASY to grow, very durable, they grow fast, and have smaller leaves than even the species form of benjamina.

A F retusa before/after:

Here ^^^ I pruned it before I repotted.

Below, is the tree about mid Aug, so about 1.5 month's growth.

Al

Al,

Is a ficus retusa also called ficus ginseng? I happened to be at my local nursery and found this guy. It was labeled a ficus ginseng and when I looked it up online it looks like the scientific name is ficus retusa. Either way, I was considering purchasing a bonsai so I decided to pick this one up. I figured if it’s not what it was labeled you could tell me what it actually is.

Elena,

I have that issue too haha!

Al
I will certainly keep an eye out for ficus retusa!

Thank you for the explanation! I agree reading your posts it's clear you give advice based on individual cases. But of course, as a novice, I like to try deduce a generally safe course of action.

I chopped the ficus Audrey today. I noticed a few buds were a bit swollen looking before I did that, which I think is a good sign?

I've been cutting leaves of my propagations in half for a while now, so it's not that I was trying to "preserve" a nice looking top leaf on the cuttings. I just thought it would be somehow bad for the energy flow in the plant, not that I really know what that means.

Unrelated to this post, but maybe you could have a look at my scheflerra post? I added pics after the repot (which was almost traumatic LOL).

Thanks again, Al, you're truly a wealth of knowledge!

Elena

Just to give an update, finally these have started to backbud!

Also, when I propagated the parts I chopped off, I did two tip cuttings, one intermediate node cutting, and a mallet cutting. For the mallet cutting, I cut the stem lengthwise. I actually wasn't super clear if I was supposed to do that so I had really low hopes for that one, but I thought I'd give it a try. I think they're all doing fine, and the mallet cutting (on the right in the first photo) has started to grow!!

Your cuttings looking good. They should all grow. Audrey is very robust plant. In time your plants should have aerial roots and it will be more interesting. Here is the base of my mother plant:

that looks so interesting! What is your climate where you live? Do you do anything to encourage aerial roots?

I am US in US zone 6b. We have long winters. I have to bring my plants indoors by end of Oct and bring them out in May sometime. So about 6 months indoors and outdoors each. The aerials roots tend to grow in summer mostly. One way to encourage them is to increase the humidity around the base by loosely wrapping it with plastic sheets (saran wrap works fine). This year will cut a plastic pot on one side and slip it around the base to create a local zone of humidity. May be I will loosely pack it with sphagnum moss too). It is about 20 years old, may be more. Here is it is in gritty mix: '

My ficuses are certainly growing but I feel that the new growth looks almost etiolated, which makes no sense as they're getting tons of light and about 4 hours of direct sunlight per day. I've been fertilizing with 1/2 tsp Foliage Pro per gal at each watering.

Is this normal? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I didn't remove the leaf at the axil where he branch is growing?

Thanks!

I can't remember what you did with your plants, but, if you repotted you should expect internodes to lengthen right after the repot, than start to shorten up again in a year or so as root congestion starts to take a toll on extension growth.

Start from the base up on this Madagascar palm. You'll see the distance between the thorns decreasing until the plant was potted up, then you'll see where the thorns immediately get considerably farther apart. Then gradually they get closer together as the congestion sets in again. Then the plant is potted up again and the crown was pinched, forcing new branches. You'll be able to read your tree by looking at the leaf/bundle scars, just as I've read the palm by looking at the thorns. Had this palm actually been repotted instead of potting up, the increase in distance between thorns would probably been threefold what the image shows.

You can remove all leaves that have branches growing in their axils as soon as the branch gets a start. That will help to reduce internode length, but the biggest help will come from pinching. As the 3rd leaf is opening on any new branch, pinch it back to 2 leaves. You'll get 2 branches in the axils of those leaves. Remove the leaves with branches growing in their axils and keep pinching all branches back to 2 leaves. The number of branches goes from 2 to 4 to 8 to 16 to 32, 64 128, and you'll have 2 leaves on each branch.

Al

Thanks Al,
Yes I did a repot (and root prune), I had no idea that could affect internode length. I'm a little bit bummed because i cut off a bunch of etiolated growth only to have it replaced with more etiolated growth. I realize I can prune again and pinch to get branching but the etiolated growth is here too stay as the first two leaves in that branch have a long internode.

I am wondering if you (or anyone else) had any idea what is causing this damage on my Ficus Audrey? I'm fertilizing with Dyna Gro Foliage Pro so I don't think it is nutrient-related, but who knows...

The first photo is on one of the plants outside and is only on that one leaf, it's the second-newest leaf. There's no damage visible on the underside of the leaf.

The second photo is on a cutting I propagated, it's inside. That's the underside of the leaf and some of the damage goes right through, so there's little holes in the leaf.

Any thoughts?

I wouldn't let the fact that your efforts have allowed the tree to get back to a growth rate unimpeded by root congestion. As you keep pinching, the number of growing points on the tree will increase in number the same as I outlined above, from 2 to 4 to 8 to 16 to 32, 64 128 ...... . As the plant's energy outlay keeps getting divided by more and more growing points, leaf size and internode length will decrease naturally. Large leaves and long internodes are always a part of working with a healthy tree. Never be chagrined the plant is reacting like any healthy plant would as a healthy plant is best viewed as a blessing a high % of growers would covet.

Priority 1 is make sure the plant is as healthy as it can be.

Priority 2 is make sure the plant is as healthy as it can be.

After satisfying the first 2 priorities, you can start using your pruning/pinching strategy to manipulate/reduce leaf size and internode length. Next year, as long as it remains healthy, you'll even be able to defoliate the entire tree, which will dramatically impact leaf size and internode length.

The spots look like oedema. I'm currently talking to at least a dozen growers about several species Ficus, so it's difficult for me to keep up with what each individual is doing for their plants, culturally. Do you have a drain hole in the pots and are you using a tell?

Al

Could someone tell me if I should cut the two leaves with scars out? I just received my plant from Etsy a month ago. It was a little lopsided from shipping, the main stem had come loose. After putting it in a double window sun room for a month the leaves have scarred.

Take the aluminum wrap off the pot to ensure water can escape through the drain hole.

The affected leaves show localized parts of the upper layer of the leaf's superior (top) surface which have been destroyed by photo-oxidation (sunburn). Too much light causes release of a hydrogen atom which joins with a water molecule to form the oxidase H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), the same chemical compound used to bleach hair and disinfect wounds. H2O2 is a powerful oxidizer which attacks the first organic molecule it comes in contact with, in this case, t was the pigment chlorophyll. The leaves first turned a silver/gray color before desiccation became a player and turned the surface brown. The plant has chemical messengers that will inform plant central when the affected leaves move from being net producers of energy (via photosynthesis) to net USERS of energy. When the plant recognizes the leaves as a liability as opposed to assets, it will start adsorbing mobile nutrients and other compounds from the leaf for use elsewhere in the plant. That means they are still an advantage to the plant; however, the plant appears healthy enough that removing them for aesthetic reasons wouldn't be a significant setback as the leaves are already about 25% compromised insofar as their ability to produce food/energy. Your call.

If you decide to remove them, only cut through the petiole (leaf stem) with a pair o scissors an inch or two away from the leaf's attachment point - especially the top leaf. If you cut the top leaf too far back, you could remove the apical meristem at the stem end where all extension growth occurs. Do this, and the trunk will never be able to extend. Instead, a new branch will occur from the new top leaf and take over as the new leader. The problem with that is, it will likely grow in a direction other than up for several feet unless you train it to grow upward as soon as the new branch appears. If you have questions, I can offer guidance as I have many bonsai Ficus and am very familiar with how you can expect them to respond.

Al

Hi everyone

Im clearly a novice as you can see from the photo of my ficus Audrey which clearly is looking for the human parent's guidance.

Unfortunately, before i stumbled onto these pages, i have no clue how to support my lanky (1.5m from top of the soil) ficus. From what i have read and re-read from Al's super answers, i should be pruning the plant hard to encourage the plant to grow a thicker stem. And i should be thinking how i want it to grow - lollipop or s shape like a bonsai.

As someone mentioned, it feels quite overwhelming to prune the plant hard at this point as ive managed to keep it alive since covid started. But if its the best for my baby, then okay (with a deep breath) please tell me where i should cut. Thank you so much!

Some growers look at growth as their ultimate goal. IOW, all they are happy seeing growth as their only reward for their efforts, but many plants, within a year or two, begin to lose eye appeal unless the owner takes control over what the plant will look like. That's about where you are now, asking yourself what good is growth if it continues to detract from the plants appearance? Growth is essential because a plant not growing is a plant that's dying. The statement might seem to be too bold, but plants grow when they make more food/energy during photosynthesis than they use during the respirative phase; this, simply because they need a place to store the energy, so they create files of new cells.

Since there is no stasis in nature and a plant must grow to survive, and, you're ready to start looking at manipulating growth as a way to achieve a more lofty goal, a hard pruning should be an easy sell. However, a hard pruning now isn't appropriate. If you live in the northern hemisphere and prune hard now, the new post pruning growth will be long and lanky due to lower light during fall/winter/ early spring. Since you'll want to get into the cyclic habit of doing all hard pruning in June, so you remove all the lanky growth with long internodes, pruning now would mean you'll need to prune again in June, removing all the growth that occurred since the last pruning. My suggestion would be to do a lighter pruning now, then do the hard pruning you expected in June. One benefit in doing that is, you'll be able to see exactly how your plant responds, so when it comes time to do the hard pruning, your level of confidence will be high, which will relieve the consternation you have now.

I probably should know where you live as I don't think you live in the US. Then, we can put together a plan that works in concert with the plant's natural rhythms.

Do you have a spot where your plant will get more light? Are you fertilizing regularly? Any additional thoughts?

Al