Ohmygosh, the fun people have with their propane tanks. That watermelon is hilarious; I love the vine cascading down the side. It needs a blue ribbon smacked on the side of it.

Anyway, my architect strongly recommended (as in, darn near *commanded* me, lol) to buy (not lease) the tank and bury it. I hadn't even realized that they could be buried, and was actually quite relieved, because you know, I hate gray, and it never occurred to me to paint the thing. :-D Not that I'd paint it (the maintenance alone), but those photos sure made me smile, lol.

Edited to add:

My husband enjoys cooking with gas, so we will likely need a propane tank. We also plan to use solar to power most everything else, but I am a roof snob and refuse to have panels on a traditionally-styled house (Spanish). I hate a cluttered roof, and don't plan on using parapets. Am I a pain or what?!?

@One Devoted Dame, apparently there's a niche for painted propane tanks....who knew?!?! (I didn't until I googled it!)

https://www.google.com/search?q=painted+propane+tanks&sxsrf=ALeKk01jOjrmnLRhmBsJA8Duehkoar8Yaw:1590020418463&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjqg-nR18PpAhUyh-AKHbw5DY8Q_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=2048&bih=994

Ours will be set away from our house near where DH plans to build a pole barn so I'll probably disguise it with some bushes.

lol!!!!

Holy smoke, those are hilarious! I'd love to meet the fun folks who get that done to their tanks. :-D There are some truly artistic tanks out there. Crazy.

Propane has been very expensive. We are doing all electric except propane for our Rangetop as well as for our living room fireplace. (Master and basement family room fireplaces will be electric).

Propane? Wtf? Only if off-grid and you have no other choice. Modern civilization has moved to electricity and natural gas. LNG is so cheap.

Modern civilization has moved to electricity and natural gas.

This is our first choice, to have electricity and natural gas. But NG is not available everywhere, and I will likely have to buy land out in the sticks, for my project. It's rotten, no doubt about it. :-(

Edited to add:

I just realized that my comment sounds as if I think it's rotten to be building in a rural area, when in fact, I meant that it's rotten that NG isn't available in many rural areas around here. :-D We are actually quite looking forward to having more space, lol!

@shead, I don't find your remark condescending. If propane is your only option then that's what you have to go with. Point is, beware of finding yourself in a position where propane is your only option, esp in a cold zone.

We decided to ditch propane and oil and go all electric, including an induction cooktop.

Design an energy-efficient house and add solar panels so you don't have to worry about future electric rates.

We also have a combination of propane and electric (no NG available). The house is basically fully electric (Thanks TVA!), but we have propane for the cooktop, two fireplaces, and a stub-out for the grill.

We have propane for our range and hot water heater. We have a heat pump for heat. We bought our propane tank and it is buried. And of course if natural gas was available that would have been our preference but it is not available here. We did not want induction.

We have geothermal, electric for induction range, well power, etc, and a small propane tank for my gas fireplace. NG wasn't available for our build.

I would take the pathway of burying and buying a tank and just use for fireplace & cooking if you want that. If you don't care about that - ie gas cooking and a gas fireplace, then do all electric.

All electric is the cheapest option, you just give up the cooking and fireplace.

As an aside, if you get used to less air pollution, you really start to get bothered by the combustion in your house. Not sure if it is my wife's move to eliminate fake odors or the move to EV's, but now I certainly crank the hood before turning on a burner ... and I wish I pushed harder on induction cooking.

We have other houses (rental that we lived in and vacation) that are all electric. I have heard so much BS about issues with heat pumps in our climate and you will hear the same. Things like "this house is too big for a heat pump" or "on really cold nights, you will feel cold". Whatever. Feeling cold is poor air leakage and insulation...

Not sure how far along you are, but I got a $9k rebate from Duke Progress. They pay you for avoiding a kwh (I think 90 cents for every avoided kwh in a year). The easiest way to avoid a kwh is to heat with electric and insulate/air seal well. A heat pump hot water heater is worth about $2200 in that model so that is another easy way.

The best part is taking their rebate and then using solar to never pay them a dime anyway.....Not true, our zero bill is about $16 a month.

Like @David Cary, we are loving our $12 electric bills.

We have an energy efficient build, solar, electric heat pump, and propane. The propane is for our backup generator and also the small propane furnace that adds extra support to our heat pump(Bryant Evolution). We are in a very cold climate. I was nervous about switching from gas to I eduction for cookin but now I am kicking myself for not doing it years ago, it’s wonderful.

Propane tanks are ugly though, so give some thought to where it will be, or bury it. We had lots of conversations about all the ‘ugly’ things, generator, tanks, electric panel....

We currently have propane for our tankless water heater and the house heat. We have an induction cooktop. We will be going the same route at the new house. Around here we got a free buried tank with a full tank purchase. This was over 10 years ago so not sure they do that anymore, but we will bury it at the new house as well. Had all electric with a heat pump forced air in a previous house and it needed supplement on colder days with the electric strips which was very expensive to run, so hence propane here for heat. The heat also feels better than the all electric as in the heat pump or the electric strips don't feel as warm coming out of the forced air. We are southern though so .... If in a more heating climate the requirements would be different. All this also depends on what your electric costs are.

We are also looking at solar for the new house, but it won't make a difference for how the heat feels with electric vs. propane in a forced air system.

We have a buried tank. It’s not that different than having natural gas. I just have to remember to check the propane level and call for refill when it’s low.
We built our pole barn to accommodate solar panels, a good place to put them!

" It’s not that different than having natural gas. "

One difference is that in a house with a basement, there's a potential explosion risk, greatest when there are propane gas appliances (like a water heater) in the basement. If in a garage, important to enhance the fresh air ventillation openings beyond code requirements.

The other difference is that it's more expensive but yes, if that's all that's available, that's it.

I'm not a propane fan myself and if I were building in an area with no natural gas, my personal choices would be as others have explained - solar panels, heat pump water and space heating, an induction range and electric ovens.

(I had a friend who was nearly killed when his mountain home exploded into a fireball from a propane leak. He was lucky to survive it)

We have an above ground propane tank (installed in 1949 per the carving on it!). Our only option if we want gas. We're on an "always full" plan so the propane company comes once a month and tops it off for us. Pretty much every house in my rural area has an above ground propane tank.

We are going to have a propane cooktop and log starter in our new build. We are also in a rural area with no NG service. My wife detests cooking on an electric range, so propane it is. Our previous house in the same area had propane for cooktop and furnace, but it was a 1978 build back when heat pumps were MUCH less effective in our climate.

Well, it sound like there are many of us on propane and not part of "modern civilization"....who knew?!?! 🤷‍♀️ 😋

I was looking into propane for our cooktop (everything else is electric) and Google started sending me articles about the negative effect on air quality from gas burners. It was enough that my wife, who was firmly in the gas range camp, has now spec'd an induction range instead. We're lucky to have very cheap electricity, though.

We have the trifecta of homebuilding BS....Propane, Well, and Septic. NG is not available in the area we are building. We purchased our 1000 gallon propane tank and had it buried. We are only using our propane for heating purposes. We joined a propane/fuel co-op as they have the best pricing in our area. When we fill up in a couple weeks for the first time it should cost us about $1.14 a gallon (suburb of Albany, NY).

"Google started sending me articles about the negative effect on air quality from gas burners."

A properly sized functioning overhead exhaust hood, and an open window or other access into the home for makeup air, are all that's needed. The concentrations produced by most cooking experiences disperse quickly into the home air anyway, except for small or poorly ventilated homes.

Food fumes may not have potentially troublesome combustion products but who wants the house to smell like what was just cooked. A functioning exhaust hood is equally important for electric cooktops.

Gas price has tanked and so has propane price too. Evaluate and see which appliances you need gas, for us, it will be just central heating and tankless water heater. We will have electric dryer and induction cooktop. Do not underestimate the power of induction cooking.

And about the gas price, it fluctuates. It wasn't long ago that propane was more expensive for heat than electric strips.

All electric can be carbon free, propane can't. Changing things out gets expensive and we need to reduce carbon output. And don't ignore the potential financial encouragement to get it right the first time - at least in NC.

" All electric can be carbon free, propane can't. "

What electric utility provides carbon free electricity?

"What electric utility provides carbon free electricity?"

Hydro Quebec's electrical generation is about as 'Carbon Free' as you can get.

However, when you look at the Total footprint of the utility it can never be completely carbon free when you include the carbon to clear & flood thousands of square miles, build roads, manufacture equipment, transport and install the entire infrastructure and its massive maintenance that is all done with trucks and tractors. Think about the manufacturing of just the millions of tons of cement alone.

Talking about Carbon Free or even just ‘Carbon’ is a pipe dream for those that want to virtue signal and lecture the rest of us.

That said, I’m all in for energy conservation!

IMPO

SR

If you want your comments to be most relevant, please keep in mind that there are very, very few participants on this site from Canada. This thread and the comment I was referring to both originated from folks in North Carolina.

Never mind the "virtue signaling" nonsense. It's a reasonable point that all electric has an easier path to a much lower carbon footprint. Those folks who are at net zero are case in point.

I've done the math, and the grid has to be greater than 50% non-carbon sourced (with the remaining carbon sourced being 1/2 NG and 1/2 coal) to roughly equal a condensing natural gas appliance for carbon output. Unless you live somewhere that sources hydro or nuclear, it's really unlikely that your grid comes close to that any time soon. Solar and wind become unstable without storage at levels much lower than 50%.

Just a few years ago, propane was super expensive and unavailable. Distributors were telling long-time customers, "I'm sorry" in the middle of winter. No thanks.

Low energy consumption in the first place + grid-tie solar is a great combo. If you can't do the grid-tie solar out of the box, design the home for it and add it later. We've got about 30 years to get our act together.

Jake - are you saying a heat pump vs condensing natural gas furnace? Appliance could mean hot water but how many folks have gas fired hot water heaters that are condensing? So Elmer and I have this debate often. I am sure you had to make a lot of estimates to hit that and a milder climate (ie NC) would favor HP more because of a higher average COP.

North Carolina (me and OP) was 26% coal, 30% NG in 2017.

So by your numbers, 3 years ago it was really close.

Coal use has been falling in the US about as fast as any environmentalist could hope for. I would guess that 2020 we are down to 20% coal if not lower in NC

So, NC likely tipped in favor of Heatpump by this year. Even if 75% of that coal was replaced by NG.

Now how long does a house last (or at least HVAC equipment) and where is the trend line going?

In the US this year, it is predicted that renewable generation will exceed coal generation. Some of that is coronavirus effect but it was going to happen in a year or two anyway.

The use of coal in the US has fallen 50% in 6 years. A truly remarkable change.

We are in an area not serviced by natural gas. We wanted gas for cooking and so we pay for Amerigas - two slender upright tanks out back, about 4 feet high, that we own, next to the A/C unit, and they come out and refill on a schedule once a quarter. It's about $80 a quarter, I think?We've never had an issue.

But be aware that a propane hookup will reduce the amount of heat/pressure - not really remembering too well -- that your stove is capable of. Like, the turbo booster burner will be a little bit reduced compared with a true natural gas hookup. We did this when we built the house in 99. It requires a conversion kit for your stove. It has never been any kind of issue when cooking. Totally recommend gas for cooking!

We have oil forced air burner for heat, electric water heater. If we'd had the option we would've gone gas all the way. But we didn't, and still don't.

Probably best to disguise it because essentially it's a bomb sitting in your yard.

Big Pharma Ad:

This might help keep people away -- think you're a bit crazy?

Just realize there are a lot of teenage and younger children playing Fortnite --- so dispelling the notion that these aren't bombs... well grand theft auto didn't help auto stealing statistics. (This ka boom bomb below -- from Fortnite)

" So Elmer and I have this debate often. "

A frequent debate. No, I don't think so.

When you present trite and unfounded platitudes as you did just above, I like to counter them with facts. Respond to my question or admit your imagination was behind your comment.

When you present trite and unfounded platitudes as you did just above, I like to counter them with facts.

Oh really? I suppose any minute now you will post your California electric bill to this other post? You know--- because we want facts to be included now in all our discussions on this board.

No more hiding behind board related politics? I welcome the change... let's keep everything factual no more hiding Mr. Fudd.

In case you some how lost the thread it's right here: Waiting for the posting of Mr. Fudd's Electric bill

You mean to tell me Mr. Fudd is involved with more than one argument? yep, those are the facts folks.

Re: Elmer J Fudd

“If you want your comments to be most relevant, please keep in mind that there are very, very few participants on this site from Canada. This thread and the comment I was referring to both originated from folks in North Carolina.”

It matters not a wit where you’re located. The point is that the generation of the massive quantities of electrical energy required is a nasty business – whatever it is, wherever it is – even ‘Clean’ Hydro Electricity!

IMO

SR

I hope you both have a great day!

Propane tanks come in handy to run a generator when the power goes out.

Austin Air,

So are you saying that when people don't have access to NG that they shouldn't even think of getting propane because it's an explosion waiting to happen?

Austin Air,

So are you saying that when people don't have access to NG that they shouldn't even think of getting propane because it's an explosion waiting to happen?

No that's not what I am saying. This is informative as long as you treat this gas with the respect it deserves and the attention to details --- otherwise don't use it.

It isn't a cheap gas (most of the time) -- so human nature when things get expensive they skimp on other things. The tank ages, the lines used to draw from the tank age etc.

All common sense things... in a world in which there is none. There is enough explosive power in one of these things to level a city block. (on the news all the time).

Doesn't natural gas explode too?

Right. But natural gas isn't stored on property so you have to have leak and not realize it. Whereas with propane, you have a potential bomb right there. Now - I don't think that it really happens very often. I just saw that Austin says it is on the news all the time so maybe it does happen just not near me. I would imagine the tanks get shot every once in a while ....

Electricity on the other hand does not explode. It does create fires but the reality is that a single source of energy has a small advantage in safety. Living without electricity because of fires is not a reasonable option.

Natural gas is lighter than air where as propane is heavier than air.

So propane will 'pool' in low lying areas. That 'pool' continues to grow until ignition source. Then as stated above you have a large 'contained source' on the property in question. (ignition source could be anything that produces a spark. Flick of a light switch, static electricity etc.)

Could natural gas explode, yes but it's much less likely. Because it's lighter than air -- only if it is 'contained' in an area of confinement. Because there is no large amount on any property explosions are much less violent than propane.

Well, propane is typically safe and it burns clean and you are able to power your home with the same fuel source. But you could be running the risk of higher upfront costs to switch over, and it also produces fewer BTU's per gallon.

Twintech Heating & Cooling

https://twintechheating.ca/

We live in the country so there is no natural gas. Electricity rates are high, not a fan of oil. We have used propane for 30 years to heat the house, dry the clothes, and cook and have no complaints. Site your tank carefully so it can be hidden by shrubbery. Shop around for propane suppliers because you can’t just shop around every time you need a tank refill.

Yearly contracts are required around here but there are buying groups out there that you can join to get a bulk purchase price, renegotiated every year.

I occasionally hear a story on the local news about a natural gas explosion occurring in a house. I can't recall ever hearing about a propane gas explosion.

Propane explosions are not uncommon in areas where it's widely used.

Natural gas is lighter than air and dissipates more easily when there's a leak. Though not always.

Propane is heavier than air and so collects in low spots. Like basements. The house explosion I briefly mentioned above, there was a propane water heater in a well sealed garage (vents covered by snow) and the explosion was ignited from the spark in a wall switch when my friend opened the garage and turned on the light. Needless to say, my friend rebuilt the destroyed home and went all electric.

Advantages & Disadvantages of Using Propane.

https://www.ductless-mini-split-air-conditioner.org/

Price

A major advantage of using propane fuel is that it is relatively cost effective. For the money paid, it produces many more units of energy than many other fuel sources. It is an efficient-burning fuel, and propane appliances have a much shorter energy savings payback period than many other fuel sources. This means that the initial outlay to provide the equipment for propane burning pays for itself more quickly once the cheap price of the actual fuel is taken into account.

Safety

Propane is quite a safe energy source, but it does have risks. It is combustible, and as with any flammable gas a leak can be potentially devastating. It is heavier than air, so any propane leak in an enclosed area will sink and become concentrated at the floor level, where it may avoid detection. Also, propane is stored under high pressure, making any sudden decompression or rupture of its container an event of violent force.

Environment

A major advantage of using propane gas as fuel is that compared to many other fuel sources it is environmentally friendly. In practical terms this means that it meets the clean air energy standards of the Environmental Protection Agency. It is nontoxic and soluble in water, and because it is a gas it cannot spill, form pools or leave environmentally damaging residues.

Depending on winter climate, I prefer an all electric house with air or ground source heat pumps.

The one advantage I see for propane is for those who may live in areas where power outages are common/frequent. Even there, gasoline based generators are an option.

I went to school in a rural area. I am guessing there was close to 400, perhaps 500, different kids who attended that school during the time when my brothers and I were in school. Most of our fellow students are still alive but I know of two deaths associated with propane. One man died from burns from an explosion when lighting a basement water heater and the other died in a fiery crash while he was driving a propane delivery truck. Obviously that is coincidence that I knew of these two deaths but propane incidents are not uncommon in areas where it is the common heating fuel.

I am hopeful that improvements in battery technology will help to make solar and wind energy practical on the small scale for rural communities. Given the installed user base, propane won't disappear any time soon.

Thread has gone off-topic.