I second your idea of running conduit wherever you think you might need it later.

With all the wireless (wi-fi, bluetooth, proprietary) equipment available to control all the items you've listed, maybe it would be best to not build anything into the house and let your husband go wild with all the Alexa, Smartthings and other "smarthome" products. Most of this stuff is cheap, technologies change, and new products are always being developed. I'm remodeling my condo and considered incorporating such technology but after fooling around with a SmartThings hub, an Amazon Echo, and a few connected devices I put it all away and installed some occupancy sensors and dimmers to control the lighting. I decided I didn't need to be able to say, "Alexa, turn on the lights" when the occupancy sensors were sophisticated enough to turn on the hallway and kitchen lights only when needed (Lutron Maestro trainable occupancy sensors).

One "smarthome" device I do recommend: Honeywell T6 Pro Wi-Fi Programmable Thermostat.

@Sam Biller: "2) strategic audio runs to key locations inside and outside to support reasonable quality Sonos-based audio with some in-ceiling speakers,"

Sonos speakers are wi-fi; they just need power. You can cable them but then you'll need cat5/6 cable and power.

Remember intercom systems of the 60's and 70's? That is home automation today.

It is moving so fast and tbh there are major security risks you have with it.

We are a "techie" family and work in technology and are skipping all automation in our new build. FWIW

My hubby is techie too but we are not into a bunch of automation for things like blinds and lighting . I figure I need the exercise to actully get off the couch and close the blinds or turn on or off the lights.

@Patricia Colwell Consulting: "I figure I need the exercise to actually get off the couch and close the blinds or turn on or off the lights."

Since I've switched to candles I've dramatically increased my exercise frequency. And I don't worry about candle hacking!

In ceiling speaker will need to be driven by a Sonos amp so they are wired.

LOL I just do not see the point in all this automation for homes . I love Alexa for info but I don’t want it to do anything else , my husband already has it turning on the TV and finding shows but he is blind and works well for that use.

Works well to turn on and off certain lights. For others, automations work well and for others timed behavior works best.

My system is set up so that:

- Lights that make sense kick on automatically (pantry, closets, bathroom main light, garage, etc)

- Other lights are manually turned on but kick off automatically after a period of time with no motion (vanities, etc)

- Certain buttons control a large number of lights. For example, I can control the overhead table light, wall sconces, island lighting, can lights, and cabinet lighting in the kitchen in the space of one switch.

- Window shades go up at sunrise and down at sunset. Also go down when the security system is set to "away" and up if the alarm goes off (so you could see the intruder). Shades can also be adjusted at the light switches

- Outdoor lighting kicks on at sunset and off at sunrise.

- Security cameras. Self-explanatory.

- Home audio throughout most of the house including outdoor living areas

- Smart deadbolts...individual codes for everyone, and I can even get text alerts to let me know the kids are home. if I need a service person, I can assign them a temporary code on my phone that expires after just a few minutes. They can also lock themselves out (requiring a key to open) if the code is tried too many times.

- Thermostats that I can adjust based on the time of day. I can also set them to adjust to something less power hungry when the security system is set to "away". As a bonus, the thermostats have wireless sensors that I can place around as I want and the thermostat will average those temperatures since of being a single point system so it's a more comfortable environment.

- Water heater that shuts off automatically if a leak is detected. I can also program it to kick off in the evening and kick back on a hour or so before we wake up

Haven’t read other opinions but i would be against too much tech in my home..as I....like you am not a techie...i spend too much time on frustration and feeling incompetent when i know i am not even interested in learning...we need to be “ in touch” with our environment ...pull up the shades ...unlock the door...if nothing else to humanize our home ...now if you have a husband and kids who love these things...it really boils down to how to keep it at a level you can find useful as well

@rsc2a your house could be broken into/hacked into faster than you can imagine with all that...

@Sarah B I carry a tracking device, camera, listening device in my pocket everywhere I go, and the fact that I'm posting on this website is being monitored by half a dozen (at least) different companies. If people are so bored that they want to listen to me cook dinner, they are welcome to.

It is more the fact of opening your doors/unlocking your doors, security systems, etc.

I get it, I work in tech and future of tech initiatives - ive seen the other side of lots of this stuff. There are limits as to what you should allow or be very aware of how easy it is to get in...especially if you have kids

There are things that make our lives easier, save time, save energy and increase our safety. On the other hand there are many things that don't work all that well, add frustration, increase risk and are a waste of time and money.

It is all about balance, using common sense and understanding your own needs and tolerances.

I am with Patricia - I can get up and walk to the window to lower a shade or turn a light on or off. I no longer have a house phone, but would not get rid of my land line as long as I lived in California in a wild fire prone area. Cell towers would go out, electricity would go out, but my trusty land line with a corded phone that plugged into the wall always worked.

I work in the tech field and have worked with system security and data security and would never have an entry system attached that could potentially be hacked.

@Jennifer Hogan, read the thread. Are you for Control4 as a means to achieve this goal?

Wow! Thank you to everybody for taking the time to set down your thoughts. This is a fascinating discussion. I am surprised that the commentary is so heavily negative; I had expected a debate about which integrated system is better but instead it is about something much more fundamental.

So why does the entire construction team (not just the subcontractor) present the overall control system as something absolutely necessary for our home?

Sam Biller: You & my husband are on the same wave-length. He has pre-wired the house heavily w/ Cat-6 & audio homeruns, and went a little wild w/ the in-ceiling speakers too – but I envision many happy evenings w/ the whole family in our new big kitchen, dancing & singing as we cook dinner together, so I agreed.

wdccruise: “… maybe it would be best to not build anything into the house and let your husband go wild …” You are right – he has started investigating many of the systems recommended in this thread. And it might also be helpful to live in the house for a little while to figure out what we need.

Sarah B: “… tbh there are major security risks you have with it.” I learned the hard way – my identity was stolen in the Anthem/Blue Cross hack-job of 2014-15 and the thieves went all the way to submitting a fraudulent tax return to the IRS. Convenience is not worth that.

Patricia Colwell: You made me laugh! The subcontractor keeps telling me that home automation is going to make my life simpler and looks shocked when I say I don’t mind getting up to turn on/off the lights.

rsc2a: It sounds like home automation is working well for you. Do you use one of the 3rd party control systems (C4, Savant, etc.) or do you use something like the HomeSeer interface that you mentioned earlier? How did you choose?

btydrvn: Thank you – you found the words for something I have been struggling with: “… if nothing else to humanize our home”.

Jennifer Hogan: I agree with you about the need to find balance -- using what makes our lives better and discarding what does not. My husband & I are both native Angelenos and we keep 1 land-line for financial transactions & earthquakes. Thank you for your insight based on your life experience in system & data security.

@ strategery,

Personally, no. I would not get a system like Control4, Elan or any other outsourced home automation system.

I would consider this type of system if my needs were great enough to offset the costs and issues with the systems (inflexibility, lack of end user maintenance/management, difficulty achieving security). My tolerance would make a system like this viable only if I had a household member who had limited mobility or mental capacity where fully automated integration was not something that could wait for improvements that are on the horizon.

The abundance of smart appliances has lead to rapid advancement in the DIY market.

We already have an app for everything, the problem is that we don't have the solution for making all of the apps work together seamlessly. My honest opinion is that the DIY systems will catch up and surpass the outsourced options. You may very well be buying a dinosaur that is nearing extinction.

As for integrated, system controlled entry systems, I will lean toward caution. Even if you install automated locks so that you can lock or unlock doors/entries at the push of a button, I would want a manual system in place as well that would be maintained as the primary system.

Real life experience - I was Director of IT for a new build building. The VP stated included in the specs that she did not want me to have access to her office or the office of the CEO. So I built the system so that my key fob did not open their two offices. The CEO lived over an hour from the building and he called me one night stating that he had left something on his desk that he needed and asked if I could go in, find the document and fax it to him. I reminded him that I was instructed to set up the system so that I did not have access to his office. He remembered and was distraught - he didn't have time to make the drive, this was a real problem. So I asked him if he would like me to give myself access to his office. Problem solved. I controlled the system and could give myself access to anything. I also knew the master code and could have manually entered the code on the lock to enter any room in the building without a key fob and avoided triggering an entry log to the system.

Ehh.....if folks want in that bad, they'll break a window. My kids are more likely to hack the system than a person hacking it as a preliminary step before breaking in.

@Jennifer Hogan Regarding the "one app to control them all", that's pretty much what HomeSeer does. It's got drivers and protocols to interface with a significant number of the major brands in home automation and it's very DIY-friendly. With that being said, my system is pretty reversible / redundant (e.g. keys for locks and lights that can swap out with regular switches) and although "smart", locally controlled.

rsc2a

I agree, HomeSeer has focused on End User needs and the pain points identified by Control4 type systems.

Quite frankly, most of these companies have been around for decades and have paved the road for what is to come.

Many here are not old enough or may not have been close enough to the industry to really understand the development of computers. My first programming was done on an IBM mainframe with punch cards. I got my first office job because I lied and said "Yes" when asked if I knew how to use an IBM PC. I had used a commodore 64 and Wang Systems - figured I could learn fast enough they wouldn't figure me out.

The decade between 1981 and 1991 changed the world.

I think home automation is at the point where It is getting ready to explode . . .

December 18, 2019 — Amazon, Apple, Google, and the Zigbee Alliance, today announced a new working group that plans to develop and promote the adoption of a new, royalty-free connectivity standard to increase compatibility among smart home products, with security as a fundamental design tenet. Zigbee Alliance board member companies such as IKEA, Legrand, NXP Semiconductors, Resideo, Samsung SmartThings, Schneider Electric, Signify (formerly Philips Lighting), Silicon Labs, Somfy, and Wulian are also on board to join the working group and contribute to the project.

The goal of the Connected Home over IP project is to simplify development for manufacturers and increase compatibility for consumers. The project is built around a shared belief that smart home devices should be secure, reliable, and seamless to use. By building upon Internet Protocol (IP), the project aims to enable communication across smart home devices, mobile apps, and cloud services and to define a specific set of IP-based networking technologies for device certification.

The industry working group will take an open-source approach for the development and implementation of a new, unified connectivity protocol. The project intends to use contributions from market-tested smart home technologies from Amazon, Apple, Google, Zigbee Alliance, and others. The decision to leverage these technologies is expected to accelerate the development of the protocol and deliver benefits to manufacturers and consumers faster.

The project aims to make it easier for device manufacturers to build devices that are compatible with smart home and voice services such as Amazon’s Alexa, Apple’s Siri, Google’s Assistant, and others. The planned protocol will complement existing technologies, and working group members encourage device manufacturers to continue innovating using technologies available today.

Project Connected Home over IP welcomes device manufacturers, silicon providers, and other developers from across the smart home industry to participate in and contribute to the standard.

https://zigbeealliance.org/news_and_articles/connectedhomeIP/

"if folks want in that bad, they'll break a window."

I hear this over and over again. Without wanting to insult anyone, I think it's often an excuse to dismiss the very real privacy and security concerns in these systems.

The convenience is seductive. The loss of privacy isn't immediately apparent, and breakins don't happen every day, so you don't think about them.

The problem is that automated systems make it trivial to break in WITHOUT breaking a window - many times without leaving a readily visible trace. You can have personal data stolen and never know it until months or years later.

"Let them look, I have nothing to hide."

I hear that a lot too. You think you have nothing to hide, but we all do. Everyone breaks minor laws daily. Everyone commits little acts of possibly questionable ethics now and then.

We're used to a world where those mostly harmless little transgressions don't show and are hidden by default. We don't live in that world any more! If a rival - business, romantic, whatever - wants to take you down, all those little secrets can add up. No matter how good the security is (and most isn't that good), any data that's stored on a server somewhere is available to anyone with enough money and/or persistence.

Why put any more of your private life on display than you have to? Your automated house might as well be a glass house. So you don't have to get out of your chair to turn on a light? So you don't have to reach into your pocket and get the door key? So you don't have to walk to the door and look through an old-fashioned optical peep viewer?

Really?

It's your choice whether those small conveniences are worth it to you. I'm sure you can tell what my choice is.

The I robot vacuum has been on my list of automations that will make my life better. Now I saw the robotic lawn mower that works on the same concept. I want it!

Jennifer: Thank you for the history and the link to the "Connected Home over IP" project. Fascinating ... Do you believe that they have the consumers' best interest in view or are they trying to take action before the government steps in to regulate them?

rsc2a & David R: Your perspectives are the 2 sides of an important philosophical-political issue: Whom can you trust other than yourself? Is integrated home automation taking our world down the path to "1984" or "Ready Player One"? Are we protecting ourselves by staying out of it or are we condemning ourselves to being left behind as technology marches into the future?

Can I suggest an alternative. I am a big fan of OpenHAB. Supports countless devices and can integrate with G,A. To start I recommend try on some worthless PC or laptop. It is light, fast, can use tablets as a control panels.

The panels are lot more advanced and in abundance.

Do you believe that they have the consumers' best interest in view or are they trying to take action before the government steps in to regulate them?

Neither - it is about market domination and profits. Because these products are consumer driven they have to solve for the pain points that are blocking customers from buying into the systems. They waited until there was a fair amount of the R&D completed by others, now they will cherry pick the best of the best and create standards and systems that integrate the products, make the system open source and let others develop products that work with their systems.

A few of the top companies will make a fortune, many of the original developers will be destroyed and the next generation will know nothing more about the current companies than your kids know about Commodor, Compaq, Wang or Tandy.

I think the privacy issue is real but getting away from it is really hard.

In my average smart device house (I think), we have about 15 microphones. Smart TV (that is now unconnected from internet because it was buggy), 3 Rokus, 2 tablets, 3 laptops, 2 smartphones , 2 cars, Nest doorbell. Xbox.

They are listening. We don't have an Alexa but I am not sure adding 1 more microphone is privacy changing. And none of those devices are about home automation.

So I think the argument about privacy and automation is a bit of a diversion.

We do have some automated things - garage door opener, keypad lock, curtains, lights. None of these are big privacy concerns. Are they security issues - sure. None of the electronic entry points get into our house when we are home - without breaking through a deadbolt door also.

As far as identity theft occurring through a silent physical entry into our house, I think that is a stretch. It isn't like we have our SS cards or bank checks out in the open. We don't have passwords written down somewhere. Sure - they could probably find credit cards if we were home asleep but otherwise they are with us. And that deadbolt is still there when we are home.

So - my point is that your privacy is already compromised. Automation does not have to be a large security risk.

Now - if you want to remove all microphones, that puts you in a very small group of people who don't have computers or smartphones. That person would not likely be posting on an internet forum.

(Minor techie - do not work in IT. Just offering my perspective. Currently doing a little project to see which devices are using info. The phones are likely the worst.)

"I think the privacy issue is real but getting away from it is really hard. In my average smart device house (I think), we have about 15 microphones."

It may seem hard for you, because you have all that smart stuff. If you want to get away from it, just don't buy those devices - or pull their plugs.

The only microphone in my home that I don't fully control is in my cell phone. I could gain more control over the phone by rooting it and installing an open source ROM, but for that persistent round tuit shortage.

My laptop has a microphone too, but I run an open source OS which I trust. If I were a true tinfoil-hat type, I'd probably also replace the ROM BIOS with an open source one.

I don't own any smart home devices. I don't miss them a bit, but I'm old enough to remember walking across the room to change the radio or TV station.

My outside lights turn on when it gets dark and turn off around 3 AM. They work on a photo sensitive control and a timer. That's as smart as they need.

If I get too lazy to flip the room light switch, I'll install standalone motion sensors.

I may be getting up in years, but I still have enough strength to get up and raise or lower the blinds, and go see who's ringing the doorbell.

Alexa doesn't sound like someone I'd want in my home. Who wants a guest who's always eavesdropping on you?

I know people who install these gadgets so they hardly have to move at home, and then they pay for gym memberships so they can exercise. Something's out of kilter with that picture..

The idea of voluntarily interacting with the physical world almost entirely through a cell phone alarms me. That seems to be where we're headed, however.

I guess this all makes me sound like a Luddite. I'm not anti-tech or anti-progress. Not to drop names, but I had a Compuserve account in 1985, emailed across the country with !s instead of @s in 1987, poked around the net's corners with Gopher in 1992, and cruised the web with Mosaic in 1994.

But I do value my privacy more than I care about minor conveniences. Fortunately, I still mostly have that choice. So do you, though there are signs that we're all gradually losing it.

By the way, here's an interesting little development - one of many that most smart device owners probably haven't noticed. "Alexa, unlock the back door."

I actually experienced a scene that was uncomfortable, I was invited to someone's home for dinner. After dinner she and I sat on the sofa with her son and her son's girlfriend. All three of them are texting. I asked them about the constant texts and found out they were commenting on the movie to each other. Rather than speak they texted!

@Jennifer Hogan "[I] found out they were commenting on the movie"

They were being polite and didn't want to talk during the movie!

Jennifer...i agree ...that experience is weird..is it possible people are getting so used to communicating this way they prefer it to conversation?

When you are sitting next to each other?...

They were being themselves. They text all the time. I constantly fight my staff who want to do all communication via IM or e-mail. It is more comfortable than a conversation, but so much less informative. I can learn more about a project and the customer's needs in a 5 minute conversation than they can get 30 e-mails. I require discovery sessions to be scheduled and documented for every new project we receive. These must be done via webex meetings, no exceptions.

I also require a phone call if there have been more than 4 back and forth e-mails without a decision.

It makes me think about the generally expressionless emotionless faces of people who are the leaders in this technology...

Maybe i shouldn’t say leaders..i still have this impression of pale faces looking at screens...not talking to the people next to them

I admit i text too..and love all the advantages...so do not mean this to be judgmental....just a sad observation

Our existing home has had some form of HA running for about 20 years and our new one will as well.

Security - It is possible to create a relatively secure environment with proper use of VLANs, routers and firewall.

OVRC - This is, IMO, the biggest threat to homeowner privacy and security in this arena and a major reason to stay far away from Control 4 and SnapAV. Far away. Far Far away. I think I'd be concerned about even using an integrator who is a C4 dealer even if not purchasing C4. Just imagine all of the techs at your integrator getting together over beers and logging in to your cameras while your daughter and friends are having a sleepover.

HA Systems - Loxone provides a fair amount of end-user control and is overall a quite good system. Tough to get in the U.S. though. RTI may emerge as one of the more user programmable friendly options. Indigo Domotics looks promising for a higher end DIY system.

Benefits - Well thought out lighting scenes can add a lot to aesthetics and with lamps like LIFX and Hue there is more you can do. Some or all shades going down in the evening and up in the morning. Control of audio sources and levels. It's really nice to press one button at bedtime and all of the lights turn down, doors lock, etc.

For instance we have a 'cooking' scene that turns all of the kitchen lights on bright and both the range hood and oven stack blowers on to 150 CFM. When done cooking we can press the dinner scene that turns the blowers down to 150 & 75 (so neither can be heard but are still exhausting leftover smell) and sets other lights to various dim levels that creates a nice dinner environment.

When away from home it's nice to be able to see if doors are locked and if not then lock them (I've remotely closed our garage door numerous times). Turn lights on/off. Turn heat/AC on prior to arriving home from a trip. Turn sauna on so it's ready when you get home. Arm the security system after you leave. Disarm security and allow someone in.

And much more.

In the

Again, thank you to everybody. My husband is investigating all the great systems that have been mentioned here, to figure out which might be appropriate for our house's needs.

David Cary: “I think the privacy issue is real but getting away from it is really hard.” So true, especially during this COVID-19 situation. Our kids’ schools have gone on-line which means that people can see into our home throughout the day.

DavidR: You seem to have systems of varying intelligence levels in your home, each working in its own way. That “interesting little development” is scary.

Jennifer Hogan, btydrvn, wdccruise: True story: we went out to dinner at a local taco joint w/ a few other families. The adults sat at one table, chatting. The girls sat at another table with their phones out, taking photos of themselves & texting the photos to each other. It was crazy.

Opaone: I love your description of the “cooking scene” into “dinner scene”. I will try to set up something like that in our home.

Thank you --

Mama Nomad

I am a huge home automation fan, have had C4 going back 10 years. Savant is great too but comes down a bit to budget. Savant has some cooler looking hardware but is more pricey. I would not worry about outgrowing the technology, every few years you can update the hardware (put in the latest, fastest "brain") and swap in newer touch screens if you like and keep getting the software download updates. C4 is great because trouble shooting can be handled remotely, it is not expensive to maintain and you have user security like anything else to close off your system. As far as function, friends always say the same thing - why do you need to automate lights, HVAC, TV, shades, etc. Then you get used to it, toss in some nice motion sensors and program the way you like and it is so great. When leaving the house press one button by your door and shades go down, temp goes to away setting, all lights are off, whatever. Get home, everything comes back to life the way you like it. Look, not an infomercial here, just saying. I know there are cheaper ways to get a lot of the function but if you are running wires put a ton of wire in the walls and go to town.I had to talk my wife into it way back when and she absolutely loves it. Its good stuff. Just don't get Crestron unless you do want to be held hostage to their proprietary wiring and service call.

"C4 is great because trouble shooting can be handled remotely, it is not expensive to maintain and you have user security like anything else to close off your system."

C4 w/ OVRC is possibly the most privacy invasive system in existence.

Put in Elan G in 2014 in my new house. BY FAR THE WORST DECISION I'VE EVER MADE in home design/electronics. Nothing but issues ever since. It's never worked properly, constant bugs (devices not turning on/off, tv's coming on in middle of the night, remote not working/'offline', music server disappears, so much other annoying stuff). Even replaced the system controller for a cool $3k, reprogrammed all the software ($2500+), yet STILL all the issues are there.

DON'T DO IT, ELAN IS AWFUL!!!! Go with Savant you'll be happy you did.

In the end for me, I just want a programmable universal remote that isn't IR (like the Logitech Harmony), preferably WiFi, but it could be Bluetooth or some other RF and then gateway to your LAN. Not a mobile app, not a tablet as a remote, a convenient hand held remote with actual tactile buttons that doesn't require me to aim it at something and can integrate with the basics, Alexa, Fire TV, Roku, Smarthings, Broadlink. Everything can be gotten to pretty much through one of those paths. Seems like anybody that makes such a thing wants you to deal with one of their "installation professionals". Even the Logitech Harmony "Pro" line has gone that way.

Stay away from Control4. We built 5 years ago & have had problems with the system since day 1. For example, we have frequent issues with the remote and the wiring. We already spent so much money on it & had a couple of tech visits so we decided to just live with it. Now I just want the whole system removed/replaced.

"Stay away from Control4. We built 5 years ago & have had problems with the system since day 1. For example, we have frequent issues with the remote and the wiring."

What issues specifically?

Wiring is not a Control4 issue but a bad installer/integrator issue.

C4 remotes are generally quite reliable. The bulk of the issues I've seen have been bad programming.

This conversation did start in May 2020...but it seems people are still having these challenges?..and how much expertise does it take to even own one of these systems?...and how soon will they become outdated?....with so many homes having so many windows these days is it a reliable deterrent?...lastly i would be interesting to know how many people experience a break-in in their lifetime?...to justify having more than just locked doors? These are hypotheticals ...not questions....just observations

The Control4 techs installed our system so they would be responsible for the wiring issues. Still, I get what you’re saying...system issue vs installation issue...also probably specific to the vendor. Anyway, our system includes a doorbell connection; when someone rings it, the sound on the tv stops working (it used to go from tv to Pandora on tv). When we turn the patio fan on, the tv turns off for a minute before coming back on (it used to go off & stay off). I’m not sure if there’s a connection, but we had our patio pre-wired for a tv (but never installed one after all the issues). The batteries on the remote they provided have to be changed more frequently than normal & the brightness (although at max) is still quite dim. I thought that was normal until I saw an instructional video on YouTube that showed what it should look like.

Bad installer/integrator. C4 is great when a competent integrator does the work. You should not be having these issues.

@nphnz, Control4 techs do not install systems as far as I know. Your system was installed, poorly it sounds like, by a third party installer/integrator. A couple of points

- Control4 does do a poor job of qualifying who is allowed to sell, install and service their systems. This is especially a problem given:

- Control4 have not made their system easy to install, configure and program. Much of it is 1980's technology. They could do a much better job. That said, a really good integrator can make it work well.

Doorbell is a programming issue that your integrator s/b able to fix.

Patio fan / TV issue could be C4 or your integrator. There are some problems with C4 like this that have to be worked around.

What remote do you have that requires battery changes rather than recharging?

Just researching this very same question for our new house and find this discussion quite amusing!

https://www.topconsumerreviews.com/best-home-automation-companies/detailed-reviews.php#elan