With governors not having the power to impose quarantines what now?

maifleur03

So far several of the governors have lost the power to impose a quarantine by the courts and the federal government banned by the Constitution from doing so I am seeing no method of containing any future infection of any type. Although the courts have only addressed state leaders by extension it also would stop any of the local leaders or Health Departments from doing anything.


To me very depressing but a good topic to discuss.

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HU-5213567

sadly, probably nothing can change some people until they start seeing actual piles of bodies they care about.

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abzzybee(9/10 S. Florida)

You're on your own, stay informed, practice physical distancing, wear your mask, limit activities that expose you to others to the utmost and don't allow yourself to be lulled into a false sense of safety by all the reopening and others' devil may care attitudes.

It appears the individual freedom guaranteed by the constitution trumps common sense as well as commitment to safeguard the community. It's a conundrum without clear solutions or even acceptable compromises as the rush to reopening demonstrates.

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ohiomom

We can take care of ourselves as far as whether or not we sit in a bar/restaurant etal ... just please remember there are people working in those places that did not "sign up for this" and consider the fact that they have families that they go home to.

Stay safe and extend that care to others in your communities.

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lurker111

I'm not sure if "quarantine" is the word you're looking for.

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socks(10a)

Most people understand what the OP is referring to: self-isolation, lockdown, stay home, etc.

We can each live the way we wish, but some must go to work even if they are fearful of it.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

To be blunt: Thinning of the Red States' herds.
Or Red Counties, depending on the state.

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maifleur03

By extension this could also cover any order to evacuate because of hurricanes or orders to stay at home during severe weather such as major blizzards.

If/when this current virus situation is over if and how legislatures will change the laws that governors and others thought they were able to use to protect their citizens. Some may allow a more liberal usage while others may place even further restrictions.

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Tilly Teabag

Has America gone mad?

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

^^^ Hopefully just for 4 years.

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HamiltonGardener

I think , depending on where you live, this definition of lockdown is really broad.

I’ve realized that many US states have a much harsher form of lockdown than here in Canada, in Ontario at least.

People here have been out and about, shopping, carefully socializing, the majority of people are still going to work (major exceptions being bars and some retail stores), and more than a few young people are still getting together with friends, albeit in private houses rather than at bars. There are a few people wearing masks but it’s not the norm. Some stores are now requesting people wear masks, but most people just take them off after they leave the store or shop at a different store. Travel and schools are the big ones here. International travel is restricted and schools have been closed so many people COULDN’T go to work. It certainly hasn’t stopped older kids from getting together to hang out though.

This is how it’s been the whole time in most areas. So I am guessing what “lockdown” means to us is much different than the stricter lockdowns enforced in many parts of the USA.

If it makes you guys feel any better, Europe has been opening up for weeks now. Even some of the hardest hit areas are opening their tourism and cafes, bars, etc. Kids are going back to school, life is returning to normal. If the rest of the world is ok with it, maybe it will make you feel braver facing it.

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Tilly Teabag

But at the cost of all those lives, and some permanently left disabled, Vgkg. The tragedy is mind boggling!

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Toby

A rural county judge in Oregon declared the governor's stay-at-home order unconstitutional. The suit was brought by ten churches--big surprise. Gov. Brown appealed to the State Supreme Court and they stopped the judge's decision and are reviewing the stay-at-home order.

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bleusblue2

HamiltonGardener

I think , depending on where you live, this definition of lockdown is really broad.

I’ve realized that many US states have a much harsher form of lockdown than here in Canada, in Ontario at least.

People here have been out and about, shopping, carefully socializing, the majority of people are still going to work (major exceptions being bars and some retail stores), and more than a few young people are still getting together with friends, albeit in private houses rather than at bars.

~~~~

I feel like we live in two different provinces!

Limited store opening starts today. Speaking of a Toronto neighbourhood, I don't SEE or know about any limited socialisiing. I saw a Policeman give what looked like a ticket to a couple of people standing on the sidewalk chatting. Their guilty parties had hangdog expressions -- like Whoops, we did it. Pharmacies and groceries are open. Dollarama is open because they sell food (!). Shopper's Drug Mart has a Senior hour at opening time. All retail has been closed up to today and that is just a tiny foot in the water. Some teens may be hanging out but I don't know about that. We are shut down here.

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HamiltonGardener

I live in Hamilton, work in Toronto.

I assume that people who have isolated themselves only see limited interactions, certainly. A lot of older people will see only a glimpse of the reality. Especially retired people.

For the majority, they go to work as usual, shop as usual. More limited choices, mind you. You have to get Timmys at the drive through instead of going in to sit. You have to take out at the restaurant instead of dine in. I see plenty of people out and about, neighbours chatting, even in TO.


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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

People are going to die. There is nothing complicated about it. This government has decided that the body count that is being projected is acceptable to them and their goals.

It's sad to say but we humans have failed the test of caring for fellow humans. So it's every man for himself, survival of the fittest (or smartest). The tribes are going to their respective corners and may the best one win.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Wisconsin is starting to resemble a failed state

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/19/wisconsin-coronavirus-supreme-court-failed-state


Recent decisions have both undermined the government’s legitimacy and endangered the people


A failed state is one that can no longer claim legitimacy or perform a government’s
core function of protecting the people’s basic security. Lately, the
Wisconsin supreme court seems to be doing its level best to make its
state qualify for “failed” status. Multiple decisions have both
undermined the government’s legitimacy and endangered the people.

First, there was the primary. Because voting in person is clearly
risky during a pandemic, several states delayed their primaries to make
sure everyone was able to mail in a ballot instead of having to go to a
polling place. Not so Wisconsin. The state’s Democratic governor signed
an executive order for an all mail-in election but was thwarted by the
Republican legislature. Then the governor issued an order postponing the
election. Republicans challenged it, and the Wisconsin supreme court
sided with them. The primary went forward, but was a disaster: there
were “long lines in Milwaukee, where only five polling places in the whole city were open” and more than 50 people appear to have contracted coronavirus
as a result. Ensuring that people can vote without risking their lives
is a basic duty of government, one at which Wisconsin failed.

But the Wisconsin supreme court’s latest decision is even worse. The conservative majority overturned the state’s “stay-at-home” order, immediately leading bars to be flooded with patrons.

Even as public health officials stress the danger in suddenly lifting
restrictions, justices presented it as a freedom issue, with one writing
that the “comprehensive claim to control virtually every aspect of a
person’s life is something we normally associate with a prison, not a
free society governed by the rule of law”. Public opinion is generally against
the anti-lockdown protests, but if a conservative minority has power,
the “letting a deadly virus spread unchecked = freedom” perspective will
triumph.

Courts are the least democratic branch of government to begin with;
judges are like robed “philosopher kings” with the power to overturn
measures overwhelmingly favored by the people. (Sometimes that’s a good
thing, but decisions as to what to let stand and what to overturn are almost always political.) Once a single party dominates at court, it simply has veto power over the entire democratic process.

The court’s conservative majority has shown no hesitation in imposing its ideology on the state. As Akela Lacy reported in the Intercept, they have been denying the rights of unionized workers, ruling consistently against criminal defendants, and even overturning a rule banning people from carrying weapons on public buses.

Wisconsin’s Republicans have succeeded in capturing power in the state even without having to capture popular approval. As Michael Li of the Brennan Center documents, the state has been heavily gerrymandered, meaning Republicans can exercise power without having to win majority support:

[G]errymandered maps make it virtually impossible for them to ever
lose their legislative majority. Wisconsin’s maps were crafted with such
micro-precision that even if Democrats managed to win a historically
high 54% of the two-party vote – a level they’ve reached only once in
the last 20 years — Republicans would still end up with a solid nine-seat majority
in the state assembly. In fact, Wisconsin’s maps are so gerrymandered
that Republicans can win close to a supermajority of house seats even
with a minority of the vote. Analyses of the maps in the lawsuit challenging the maps showed that Republicans are a lock to win 60% of statehouse seats even if they win just 48% of the vote.

In a supposedly democratic country, this should be an outrage. How
can a government claim legitimacy if it does not require the people’s
support? But this is true far beyond Wisconsin. Republican rule is
minority rule; as we know, thanks to our archaic electoral college
system Donald Trump, like George W Bush, was able to win the election
without winning the most votes, and the undemocratic Senate is
Republican-dominated. The Republican agenda is unpopular,
meaning that in order to impose it, institutions have to be crafted
that will prevent the population from exercising its will. The easier it
is for the masses to participate, the more difficult it is for
Republicans to protect the 1%, who really should be winning exactly 1%
of the vote. (Donald Trump admitted that if voting were easy enough
Republicans would never win another election.)

What respect do people owe a government that cannot protect them and
cannot claim democratic legitimacy? Very little. The more that Wisconsin
Republicans act to impose their will unilaterally without regard to the safety or
will of the people, the less we should treat Wisconsin as a functional
government.

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bleusblue2

Hamilton -- maybe it's only a glimpse. In this about 20 block downtown area, only food stores are open. My bank branch is closed -- limited branches open. No chiropractor visit, no hairdresser, no schools. So many people I deal with are now working from home. What constitutes a greater lockdown than this? My family in the Midwest isn't more limited than we are here. Of course there are people out and about, getting fresh air, keeping social distance. Two cousins in their twenties are staying with their parents working from home. One is a lawyer and the other is in public relations.

You're right about SOME retired people. I'm not young, I work at home.

My point is that we have been under severe lockdown here. "Shop as usual" isn't even close to what I see, even in this active neighbourhood. Crossing the street is no longer life threatening -- traffic is nil most of the time.

Don't hold it against me -- I have to trust what I see too.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Even some of the hardest hit areas are opening their tourism and cafes, bars, etc.

Milan is showing an increase in Covid cases, and the governor of Campania, which includes Naples, refuses to open his region, setting June 2 as the date to review the state of Covid. Photos abound of la movida in various cities with little to no physical distancing and naturally no masks for the aperitif sipping crowds.

There's concern about a possible resurgence of Covid cases as prescribed pandemic norms are not being fully followed. Calculated risk is the phrase, and the risk is on the shoulders of the governors of each of the 20 regions.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

It does feel like madness. My state is certainly bonkers. The anti-mask minority is so strident and obnoxious, they're pushing local governments away from implementing sensible safety precautions.

And yes, the consequences of this will manifest over several weeks, not immediately.


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abzzybee(9/10 S. Florida)

^^^totally bonkers carol, a difference of night and day from last to this week, like nothing ever happened. Even the commercials are back to pre-covid idiocy.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Just stay home and avoid contact with others if you are at risk. You can not expect everyone to huddle at home just because of your risk tolerance.

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Ann

HG, as we've discussed here on HT, my state is sort of like you describe your area to be - with the exception of mask wearing. Yesterday, I was at a grocery store that was quite busy and I only saw one customer not wearing a mask. So, there is a very heavy presence of mask wearing here. Not much in the way of social distancing, but tons of masks.

I had a doc appt today that they called and changed to a telemedicine appt late yesterday. That turned out fine today and worked well. I have an appt for a haircut on Thursday and got a reminder call today that said a mask is required and to call from my car when I arrive because there is no waiting inside - they'll text me when I should enter the salon. I have another doc appt next week and I think that one will be in person, with masks required. My gym is working on an opening plan. They are spreading the machines out as much as possible and they are putting signs on at least every other machine closing those for social distancing. I'll go back just as soon as it reopens!

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maifleur03

Here some of the Y's including one of the ones that I went to reopened yesterday. Seniors first for two hours then people over 16. No one under 16 allowed for now. Will be taking temperatures for whatever that is worth before you enter. My normal temperature is so low that by the time I register 98.6 I am in trouble.

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Ann

I also think in about one week, restaurants will open for at least outside tables to begin with (perfect weather for that now) and pro shops at golf courses will open.

I think businesses are learning from one another and implementing similar procedures. If I were to guess, I'd say these reopening plans will go pretty darn well - with lots of new and sensible guidelines in place.

I haven't looked in recent days, but after all the heavy criticism of Kemp in Georgia, I think the Georgia reopening has gone just fine.

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maifleur03

Apparently so since Georgia only had 26 deaths yesterday.

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studio10001

I've been following the Florida chart, and it has become a bit weird. In the last 10 days or so, they reduced reporting to once a day, but the chart never matches the count. The numbers they issued for the news are those from the day before the date they gave, and the chart is now two days behind that - when it shows up, sometimes it matches what has been reported, and sometimes not. The state went from 48,500 a few days ago to 46,944. Where did 1500 cases go?

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Gooster(9)

The interesting thing is that people are not necessarily responding to certain re-opening measures. The changes are gradual and the reaction is even more so. Here's a site that tracks stay at home behavior, based on data like cell phones. There is about a 3 day delay on the data, however:

https://www.safegraph.com/dashboard/covid19-shelter-in-place?s=US&d=05-16-2020&t=counties&m=index

You can view your state/county and how the response varies. They also have some other interesting dashboards, like how Home Depot's year on year traffic is up by a large percentage.

Google has made similar data available. There you can see the mobility hasn't adapted as quickly as the opening plans, thoughout the world, although this data set is more delayed.
https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/

What's really telling is the amount of people not at their places of employment (which includes work from home, not just unemployment). Even in places with fewer restrictions, those people are still staying at home.

I think bottom line is we haven't seen more impacts because the actual behavior is only just beginning to loosen up. (Noting of course this data does not measure distancing and other protection measures in place)

@studio10001 -- Florida allegedly fired the person that was maintaining the dashboards. She claims she refused to alter the data. Interesting that you noticed a change.

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cattyles

I think most people are smarter than trump and suspicious of his and his cheerleaders’ motives. He might not give a flippity rip what happens to Americans but most of us are capable of listening to the experts and making our own decisions.

After you, cheerleaders.

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war garden

the quarantine is only legal if confines the sick not the healthy.

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llucy

HG: I assume that people who have isolated themselves only see limited interactions, certainly. A lot of older people will see only a glimpse of the reality. Especially retired people.

For the majority, they go to work as usual, shop as usual. More limited choices, mind you.

I suspect that is true of much of the US as well.

Any business that sells food remained open, as well as hardware, craft, and big box chains that sell all kinds of goods along with food. Translates to millions of people who never stopped working, shopping or socializing outside their homes. "Opening up" just gives people more choices.

Those of us who want to reduce our exposure to covid, have the same choice of staying home as we have been. And/or only patronizing businesses that follow practices which make us feel comfortable.


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studio10001

'Those of us who want to reduce'....All except hourly employees, llucy. They were furloughed, but now must return or fend. There is a covid qualifier that would allow some to apply for unemployment, but the process is complicated, and the results are uncertain.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Unless your in the US Studio. Then the unemployment is simple to recieve and generous.

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studio10001

The reports I am hearing is that the websites in some states crash, and that there is no guarantee that a worker will receive unemployment due to coronavirus if they choose not to return. Some states have run out of funds, but have spent millions on new hires to process the claims that cannot be processed. ' Generous' is an opinion that lumps thousands of minimum wage workers into a category with white collar layoffs - I can't agree that a percentage of minimum wage is generous, but find it merely just.

eta I wonder if any government response can be described as 'simple to receive' just now?

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llucy

All except hourly employees, llucy. They were furloughed, but now must return or fend. There is a covid qualifier that would allow some to apply for unemployment, but the process is complicated, and the results are uncertain.

Understood. But realistically, how long could a stay-at-home policy be extended when millions of people continue to work? Could there be a program to place higher risk folks in stay-at-home jobs? And that's assuming those people would be willing to retrain for an entirely different type of job.

We may see more work innovations in the coming months and years hopefully, but I don't know how long our system will be able keep paying people not to work.

Maybe we could take back corporate tax cuts and use THAT money to improve working conditions and alternative solutions for employees.

Dreaming is free.

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studio10001

It's a good question. If compared against the cost of uninsured hospitalization, and lowered productivity due to sick days, the cost differential of unemployment might be negligable - I haven't read that anyone is looking at that, but the fact that unemployment allows for the qualifier suggests there are viable economics behind the decision.

I like the way you dream. :)

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maifleur03

I did find it interesting that Michigan's governor is being allowed to declare a state of emergency since two dams are failing without there being an outcry that the legislature must approve. If the court ruled that the governor needed permission for one permission for the other should be required unless of course one is political and the other not.

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ak_ok(6b)

Quarantining healthy people is beyond stupid. That's not even what quarantines are for. Healthy individuals that are not at risk should have the ability to live their lives as normally as possible. If you are at risk STAY HOME. We don't need to destroy the livelihoods of everyone just to keep part of the population from dying a little earlier than they would have otherwise. Last I checked the average age of death from Covid was higher than the typical average age of death. This nonsense and fear mongering has got to stop.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Quarantining healthy people is beyond stupid.

Is a person with Covid-19 but no symptoms (25% of those infected, possibly) a healthy person? They can certainly infect others.

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ak_ok(6b)

@catspa_zone9sunset14 Well if they have Covid, wouldn't they not be healthy? If they don't know that they have it, and all of the AT RISK people are staying home (like I suggested) then it shouldn't be a problem. That's exactly how herd immunity is built, which is our best chance at fighting this until we have a vaccine.

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Kathy

The virus will die quicker from spreading if it doesn’t have a host. As long as seemingly healthy people keep spreading it we will be in for a very long haul.

I’m shocked at how many are willing to let someone else die because they want to roam at free will.

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Iris GW

I think the Georgia reopening has gone just fine.

As a former GA resident, and relatives still there, I have been watching that one. It's only been 3 weeks, not long enough for a surge yet. Also, there has been some suspicion that GA officials are playing with the numbers.

So I think it's too soon to call it.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

all of the AT RISK people are staying home (like I suggested) then it shouldn't be a problem.

People who are not in the at risk category also die from Covid-19.

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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy Then why don't we do that for the flu which kills half a million people each year? The only way for your plan to work is if EVERYONE, including all essential workers, were forced to stay locked in for at least two weeks. I'm talking no one can go anywhere at all for two weeks. Which is 100% impossible. The virus won't go away with a lockdown, the only option is herd immunity until a vaccine or better treatment is developed. We've flattened the curve, which was the point of the lockdown. It's time to get back to business.

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ak_ok(6b)

@Iris GW

My county has been open for 3 weeks and we currently have 0 active cases. Additionally, the lockdown was never a full lockdown. Bars, salons, and restaurants were closed, but everything was still open and there was always people everywhere.

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ak_ok(6b)

@nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 source? There are always outliers, but not enough from what I've seen to justify a countrywide lockdown. In places like NYC and NJ, sure it's probably necessary.

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Kathy

We have vaccines and medications for the flu and it still kills millions. This virus has neither, think of the deaths if we go about as normal. You are willing to sacrifice millions for herd immunity. I am not. That is the difference.

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Iris GW

A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.

The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.

He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-covid-19-isnt-the-flu

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Iris GW

My county has been open for 3 weeks and we currently have 0 active cases. Additionally, the lockdown was never a full lockdown. Bars, salons, and restaurants were closed, but everything was still open and there was always people everywhere.

Without knowing your county or even state, it's hard to comment on your statement. Georgia currently has a severe number of case reported. The next to darkest possible color.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

There are always outliers

Do we even know that?

US is currently showing over 20% of Covid-19 cases end in death.

Good luck convincing the public that back-to-normal is feasible for any county with more than a minimal Covid presence.

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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy you clearly aren't appreciating the millions of deaths that can arise from a lockdown.

Food shortages will kill more people than CNN could ever dream of Covid killing:

https://time.com/5820381/coronavirus-food-shortages-hunger/

"At least 265 million people are at risk of going hungry in 2020,according to an estimate made by the U.N. World Food Programme (WFP) in April—almost twice as many as in 2019."


Increase in tuberculosis deaths due to lockdown:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/06/health/tuberculosis-deaths-lockdown-scli-intl/index.html

Not to mention the tens of millions of people without jobs in the U.S. alone. That can easily lead to increased suicide rates and an inability of people to provide food and shelter for their family. Even hospitals have been laying people off because they are empty. Luckily most have started to have elective surgeries again (due to the curve being flattened). You're taking one issue, magnifying it, and ignoring all the other issues that arise due to your proposed solutions.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

You're taking one issue

93,000+ deaths in a few months tends to grab attention.

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ak_ok(6b)

@nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 You are throwing out absurd claims that are not at all based in reality, and when I asked for a source you ignored me. 20% of Covid cases ending in death is 100% not based in reality whatsoever. The highest rate in the world is in Italy at 13%, and that doesn't take into account all of the asymptomatic people that never got tested. It's much lower than that in the U.S. and I guarantee you it's even lower than the 4.3% stated in the article.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/us/coronavirus-death-rate.html


" In Italy, the death rate stands at about 13 percent, and in the United States, around 4.3 percent, according to the latest figures on known cases and deaths. "


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/us/boston-homeless-coronavirus-outbreak/index.html

When an outbreak of coronavirus in a Boston homeless shelter prompted officials to do more testing, the results caught them off guard. Of the 146 people who tested positive, all of them were considered asymptomatic.


Why did that 20% death rate completely spare this Boston homeless shelter?


https://www.businessinsider.com/hundreds-food-plant-workers-tested-positive-for-covid-19-asymptomatic-2020-5

As of Sunday, 373 employees had tested positive, but none showed symptoms.


That 20% death rate seemed to avoid all 373 of these employees that tested positive. Weird, it's almost like you completely made that statistic up.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-antibodies-test-ny.html


1 in 5 New Yorkers may have had Covid-19, Antibody tests suggest.


If your 20% figure was correct we should have 778,000 dead New Yorkers right now.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Coronavirus Cases: 1,576,412

Deaths: 93,853

Recovered: 362,458

Cases which had an outcome: 456,311

Recovered / Discharged: 362,458 (79%)

Deaths: 93,853 (21%)



https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

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ak_ok(6b)

@nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 Oh so you're not completely misinformed, just really bad at math and have no idea how the death rate is calculated.


This is from the same website but it's 6 days old so the numbers aren't completely up to date. SARS-CoV-2 is the name of the virus that causes Covid-19 fyi.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/


Infection Fatality Rate (IFR) = Deaths / Cases = 23,430 / 1,694,781 = 1.4% (1.4% of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 have a fatal outcome, while 98.6% recover).

Introduction

When calculating the mortality rate, we need:

  1. The number of actual cases. We need to know the number of actual cases (not merely the reported ones, which are typically only a small portion of the actual ones) that have already had an outcome (positive or negative: recovery or death), not the current cases that still have to resolve (the case sample shall contain zero active cases and include only "closed" cases).
  2. The number of actual deaths related to the closed cases examined above.

Considering that a large number of cases are asymptomatic (or present with very mild symptoms) and that testing has not been performed on the entire population, only a fraction of the SARS-CoV-2 infected population is detected, confirmed through a laboratory test, and officially reported as a COVID-19 case. The number of actual cases is therefore estimated to be at several multiples above the number of reported cases. The number of deaths also tends to be underestimated, as some patients are not hospitalized and not tested.

If we base our calculation (deaths / cases) on the number of reported cases (rather than on the actual ones), we will greatly overestimate the fatality rate.

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Kathy

The least people can do is wear a mask, and social distance. Employers should retrofit their businesses so people are as safe as possible until we have a vaccine or some other form of immunity. It is absurd to think we should do nothing until covid-19 achieves herd immunity if that means sacrificing millions of people worldwide.

We can conquer this if we work together not ignore the virus and go on with life as usual. In my county deaths are well over 10% of confirmed cases because We have the best hospitals in the state of Michigan. Rural areas are now being hit because more are traveling and opening up.


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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy With the way the general public uses masks, they're not really that effective. Every time you adjust your mask, or take it on or off you are risking exposure due to the virus possibly being on the mask. Same with gloves. Social distancing is probably the most effective way to slow it down, but it's not always feasible. Most restaurants aren't able to survive when they have to stay below 50% occupancy. Having at risk people stay home isn't "doing nothing," I don't think anyone is suggesting to do nothing. I've called my grandparents to tell them they need to stay home and have groceries and other items delivered, but I will continue to live my life normally as there are 0 active cases in my county.


Are you suggesting a 10% death rate in your county or am I misinterpreting that? Because that would be higher than just about anywhere in the world.

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Kathy


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Kathy

The total cases are Mi and the counties are separated by deaths per county. This is why some areas need more strict guidelines.

where is the nearest big hospital in your area? That is where you will find the deaths. Our nearby hospitals were at capacity.

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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy You can thank your genius Governor for that one. But that's still not an accurate death rate as pointed out in my death rate post above addressed to Nancy.


https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/05/18/michigan-considers-change-to-controversial-nursing-home-policy/


Gov. Gretchen Whitmer last week extended her Executive Order that placed coronavirus patients in with COVID-19 negative patients. It expires Wednesday. She’s now considering changing that policy.

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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy My girlfriend is an ICU nurse at Saints, a major hospital in downtown OKC. They had 36 beds in her unit dedicated to Covid patients. The most positive patients they had at one time was 4. The State of Oklahoma lifted the ban on elective surgeries 4/24 because our hospitals were so empty. Nursing homes weren't allowing patients back in until they had tested negative TWICE. Your governor forced nursing homes to take positive patients back.

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Kathy

I can understand some rural area hospitals that weren’t swamped being hurt by lack of elective surgeries. Why didn’t the hospital conglomerates work out which hospitals would treat which patients?

Whitmer has opened up some more rural areas to business and our auto manufacturing so we will see how that goes. It isn’t like we will be closed forever but we need to be cautious. The RW bloggers are exaggerating their sacrifices for political reasons and Trump has aided and abetted them.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Why is the entire US being judged on the basis of rural counties?

My county has a population of 10+M, and consequences for us are miles away from OK with a state population of c 4M.

California Governor Newsom is aware of the mix of urban, suburban, and rural in the state, and reopening guidelines will reflect the different circumstances. Individual counties and cities will also be determining conditions of reopening.

Los Angeles Mayor Garcetti and the Barbara Ferrer, head of LA County Public Health Department, will be the judges of when and how our county reopens.


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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy and the liberal media hasn't exaggerated the impacts of the virus to enhance fear and try to harm the economy even further just in hopes Trump gets pushed out of office? Just because NY and MI had deadly, and I would even argue criminal, nursing home policies that led to much higher death rates, doesn't mean Florida should have to be on full lockdown until a vaccine comes around. Whitmer only opened things back up due to the protests and threats she received. She deserves major blame for her nursing home policy.


"Why didn’t the hospital conglomerated]s work out which hospitals would treat which patients? "


Well if this virus was as deadly and infectious as we were told all of those beds, and more, should have been needed. It's not just rural hospitals that were hurt by the lack of elective surgeries. In fact, it's more likely it was the urban hospitals that took the biggest hit. Maybe the culture is different where you are, but around here people aren't going to go to the small town hospital to have elective surgeries performed when the doctors and staff are better in the larger cities. Sure some do it out of necessity, but most are going to the bigger cities if they have a choice.

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ak_ok(6b)

@nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 and I will ask why the entirety of the U.S. should have to be under quarantine due to NYC, NJ, and MI having problems containing the virus? The only reason I mentioned anything about where I'm from is because Kathy asked...

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Well if this virus was as deadly and infectious as we were told all of those beds, and more, should have been needed.

Stay-at-home orders reduced the number of Covid cases.

No stay-at-home orders and you have the situation in Brazil.

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Ziemia(6a)

Are any states on "full lockdown"?

Or is that just a phrase bandied about by Trump supporters?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

U.S. should have to be under quarantine

Are you seriously arguing that the US should have had no restrictions on movement and travel in March and April? Florida wanted no one from NY or NJ entering the state for fear of them bringing the contagion.

See the chaos and catastrophe in Brazil.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Can we please define what we each mean by “quarantine?”

In fact neither the USA nor any individual state nor any city is under “quarantine” ie no one is allowed to leave their own home.

Various cities and states are under various forms of restrictions from none at all to quite strict but only known cases are required to quarantine, and then only for the duration of the illness.

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Ziemia(6a)

" Then why don't we do that for the flu which kills half a million people each year?"

Talking worldwide?

We don't yet have 12 months of Covid-19 deaths. And the number of deaths has been limited via various strict measures taken by several countries.


For instance, in a bad flu year, the US has about 60k deaths in a year. Our Covid-19 deaths are 90k+ in 2 months.

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ak_ok(6b)

@nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 stay at home orders were to flatten the curve, the curve has been flattened. That's why most states are opening back up. What are you even advocating for at this point.


I love how after you are proven wrong on one subject, you just ignore it and move the goalposts to the next subject. I haven't mentioned anything about March and April, if you notice I said "should have to be under quarantine" instead of "should have had to be under quarantine" (hint: I'm talking about the present).

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Kathy

The deaths for flu are in addition to a vaccine and meds for it.

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Kathy

Dont kid yourself thinking the protestors caused Whitmer to do anything different.

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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy Maybe ask the creator of this thread what they mean by it. Stay at home orders, lockdown, quarantine, etc. are all pretty interchangeable. Of course lockdown would be more akin to China's welding people in their homes policy, but they all essentially mean the same thing right now.

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ak_ok(6b)

I love how everyone is suddenly asking for a definition of quarantine now, and not in the beginning of the thread. I think the working definition of quarantine in this scenario is continuing to force non-essential workers to stay home indefinitely. That's what most of the country, and most of the world, was doing for the month of April.


Normally quarantine means to keep someone that has an infectious disease, or has been exposed to one, in isolation away from the rest of society.


I've never once argued that at risk or people that have or think they have the virus should not quarantine. I'm just saying no one else should be forced to.

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bleusblue2

ak_ok(6b)

...< >...


"I've never once argued that at risk or people that have or think they have the virus should not quarantine. I'm just saying no one else should be forced to."

~~~~

Considering that there are a large but unknown number of carriers who are "shedding" the virus around them daily -- what is the plan in place, immediately as areas start to open, to identify and track them?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

My understanding is that quarantine means no contact with others outside your residence; this is for active Covid cases, exposure to Covid, entering from a foreign country, etc.

Stay-at-home/safer-at-home in Los Angeles means no unnecessary activities away from your residence; shopping for groceries, doctor visits, pharmacy trips are allowed as is physical exercising -- cycling, running, walking -- with masks and safe distancing.

I'm not sure what lockdown means -- perhaps that there is a nightly curfew?


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ak_ok(6b)

@Ziemia Why didn't they shut down the country in 1968-1969 when H3N2 killed 100k Americans? Mind you, the average life expectancy at that time was 70, while it's 78 now (aka younger population then). Also, they had much lower rates of obesity, a demographic which Covid really seems to kill. Not to mention they had 130 million fewer people living in the U.S. at that time. So I'm sure when this is all said and done the damage will be similar. No one really seemed to care then.

https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic/

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I think the working definition of quarantine in this scenario is continuing to force non-essential workers to stay home indefinitely.

Not in my area -- especially as new standards for businesses serving the public are being formulated.

No one is talking about indefinitely; the virus and public safety determines the reopening, not political agendas.

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ak_ok(6b)

@bleusblue2 again the plan is at risk people should continue to stay home and everyone else should proceed with caution and weigh the risks.

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Kathy

The far RW has politicized the virus just as a Trump did by making it seem as if the Dems drummed up a virus to hurt his economy. I believe most Americans want responsible behavior. There are FarRW activists using this as a weapon to divide.

Workers in close quarters need assurance they won’t be sacrificial lambs for our economy. There is no reason most businesses can not reopen if they have prepared with cautionary measures.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The Hong Kong flu was active in the US in 1968-1970.

The 100,000 death count is an estimate by CDC as opposed to actual counts with Covid.

Covid-19 has been in the US since late February 2020 and as of today there are more than 93,000+ deaths.

Comparing apples to oranges.

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ak_ok(6b)

@nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 You ever figure that whole death rate issue out? You never seemed to address it again...


Well I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up on the latest Venice, but there are plenty of governors in the U.S. that keep saying they'll try to open things up by this date, or we'll evaluate our situation at that date to determine how to move forward with openings. If you don't have a definite date for when you're opening up, then you're under quarantine/stay at home order/whatever you choose to call it, indefinitely. Luckily my town has been fully open, with some restrictions on capacity, for 3 weeks now. Did I mention we have 0 active cases? Because we have 0 active cases.

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ak_ok(6b)

@nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 Have you ever heard of inflation? It's the same concept... You take known data, and extrapolate it forward to make an apt comparison. That's why I included the information about obesity, life expectancy, and population size, so you would be able to understand the comparison.


Did you know that flu deaths every year are also an estimation? Do you truly believe the Covid deaths are 100% accurate?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I gave the mortality numbers, and the link where they are posted.

What more do you want?

I have continually reference Los Angeles City, and Los Angeles County; I don't know why you think I'm only commenting on my particular neighborhood.

If you don't have a definite date for when you're opening up, then you're under quarantine/stay at home order/whatever you choose to call it, indefinitely.

Not my definition. Reopening is a phased operation, so not all happens at once.

Parks, beaches, hiking trails have reopened, and will remain open unless new Covid cases begin increasing. Again, regulations for businesses serving the public are being planned. Some previously closed by the city are now open for curbside pick up.

We have always had restaurant preparing food available for pick up or delivery. Hardware stores remained open. Construction continued.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Do you truly believe the Covid deaths are 100% accurate?

Covid deaths are underreported.

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ak_ok(6b)

@Kathy LISTEN TO YOURSELF. What exactly are you doing other than pushing a narrative that was created to sow division? Liberals seem to completely lack self-awareness. You bought into the liberal media's fear mongering, and you refuse to let it go. If you want to point fingers at any politicians, aim it at the governors that force nursing homes to take in positive patients, when we know this virus brings death on the older population at an unprecedented rate.


New York has 5,601 Covid related nursing home deaths. The population of New York is 19.45 million. The age of your average New Yorker is 38.2


Florida has 2,052 TOTAL Covid DEATHS. The population of Florida is 21.48 million. The age of your average Floridian is 42.2.


So Florida has an older population, a larger population, but has less than half TOTAL DEATHS than New York has nursing home deaths. Yet the left wants to point the fingers at Trump and the right. All the while pushing Cuomo to run for President. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with how disconnected the left seems to be from reality. It's disgusting how well the liberal media brainwashing has worked, but man has it worked. I can see that you will never come off of your position, and that's fine. But at least I tried. It was fun, but I've wasted an entire afternoon yelling into the wind. So with this post, I'm out.

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jmm1837

The estimates I've read for the Hong Kong flu are lower than that - around 35,000. Regardless, even with lockdowns, social distancing and self isolation, Covid19 has killed as many people in three months in the US as the Hong Kong flu, or the earlier Asian flu, did in two years. And that's in spite of medical improvements over the last 50 years.


This is a more dangerous disease - it has a higher mortality rate, and there's no vaccination in sight in the next few months, marketing hype not withstanding.

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abzzybee(9/10 S. Florida)

Don't nobody kid themselves, it's all about saving the economy, no or little testing equals reopening and warpspeed ahead!

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

@Ziemia Why didn't they shut down the country in 1968-1969 when H3N2 killed 100k Americans?

I'm not "Ziemia" but from what I've read (no not liberal sources, just science) is that without a shutdown CV would have resulted in 2-3 million deaths here and decimate our healthcare system with infections. Even with the shutdown we're rapidly approaching 100,000 deaths. We're not the only country involved in shutdowns for the sake of saving millions.

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Stan Areted

ak-ok:

So Florida has an older population, a larger population, but has less than half TOTAL DEATHS than New York has nursing home deaths. Yet the left wants to point the fingers at Trump and the right. All the while pushing Cuomo to run for President. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with how disconnected the left seems to be from reality. It's disgusting how well the liberal media brainwashing has worked, but man has it worked. I can see that you will never come off of your position, and that's fine. But at least I tried. It was fun, but I've wasted an entire afternoon yelling into the wind. So with this post, I'm out.


Too bad, you should stick around, I think you could add a lot to this forum, ak--ok.

I started a thread about the difference in Florida and New York's governors but some people would not hear of it--the fact that Cuomo sent thousands of Nanas to their deaths and did not act fast enough to mitigate the disaster that was New York, and York City, and how Florida has fared much better.


Your point is well taken by some, concise and truthful.

Yes, the brainwashing has worked.

I think citizens won't assume integrity in scientists and governors any longer.

It will be hard to put this nasty fear and calamity genie back in the bottle and use it again, in my opinion.

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jmm1837

Some of us aren't especially left wing, some of us aren't miserable, and some of us aren't American. Some of us can look at what is going on in the US - the sidelining of science, the lack of benchmarks for safe reopening, the infighting between different levels of government, the total absence of a coherent and coordinated approach - with a degree of objectivity. And some of us are saddened by what we see happening to our American friends. We understand the enemy is the virus, not political opponents, and that science, not potential votes, should be at the heart of decision making.


If you need to believe I must be mentally ill to think the way I do, well, that says more about your fragility than mine.

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olliesmom

Ak-ok, you are spot on! Don’t go. I like your spunk!

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Ziemia(6a)

Don't know. Maybe ask the experts for that virus?

@Ziemia Why didn't they shut down the country in 1968-1969 when H3N2 killed 100k Americans?

(The US pop in 68 was about 200M.)

And what time frame goes with that 100k? 2 months? 18? 12?

Without the precautions taken, our current death numbers would likely be higher than what they are.

(Waiting for the state by state stats for the "extra deaths" .)

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jmm1837

Cuomo made a lot of mistakes in his approach to Covid 19, and I doubt anyone will really dispute that. But so did Trump make a lot of mistakes. And I suspect there are a few governors making the same mistakes that both Cuomo and Trump made, in underplaying the threat from the disease. The problem for me is that Trump and the governors of Florida and Texas, among others, haven't learned anything from Cuomo's mistakes and are en route to repeating them. Cuomo at least seems to have learned something, whereas I can't see that Trump has really moved beyond his first reaction of the virus not being a problem.

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Ziemia(6a)

I think the working definition of quarantine in this scenario is continuing to force non-essential workers to stay home indefinitely.


Not in my state & and there was never any lockdown to start with - landscapers weren't allowed work in a few areas - but mostly continued operations.

Appliance sales were considered essential. Restaurant take-out allowed all along. Just some examples. Oh, liquor stores didn't close by edit.

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Ziemia(6a)

Oh, btw, I agree Cuomo was slow to react. But then he did. My guv was slow to act, too, but he finally realized he had to do something more than give reminders about washing hands.

Polls are only good for generalities but this gives good ones:

"In the latest Quinnipiac poll, released Wednesday, an overwhelming majority—81 percent—of New York voters approved of Cuomo's handling of the state's response to COVID-19 and 17 percent disapproved. By comparison, only 35 percent of New York voters approved of Trump's handling of the pandemic, while 61 disapproved.

https://www.newsweek.com/governor-cuomos-coronavirus-response-approval-rating-more-doubles-trumps-among-new-york-voters-1502446

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Ziemia(6a)

PPS: there are reports that we have just under 100k deaths in TWO months.

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Iris GW

More Georgia being 'fine'

A representative for the Georgia Department of Public Health confirmed Monday that data on its website listing the total number of tests performed includes both antibody and viral tests for the novel coronavirus. The two tests are not the same. Antibody tests tell signs of previous infections while viral tests identify those who are currently infected.

“You’re putting apples and oranges together and calling them oranges,” said Dr. Harry J. Heiman, a clinical associate professor at Georgia State University’s School of Public Health. “You’re mixing two different tests. ...All that does is over-inflate the testing number.

“If anything, it skews those numbers to make it appear like the level of disease relative to testing is actually dropping much more dramatically than it is.” {...}

Heiman, the Georgia State professor, said the state should report its antibody testing separately. Some states, like Arizona, are currently doing this.

“That would give us useful information in terms of the number of people who are showing immunity to COVID-19,” he said. “But when you mix the two together, it really just clouds the picture and makes the data much less usable for people trying to track the epidemic in a meaningful way.”

Georgia is not the only state that added antibody tests to its total testing numbers. Virginia discontinued the practice last week after critics said it exaggerated the state’s response to stopping the spread of the virus, the Washington Post reports.

In Virginia, antibody tests had amounted to less than 9% of the state’s overall testing for the coronavirus. Texas is combining some of its antibody testing into its statewide testing data, the Texas Observer magazine reported.

https://www.macon.com/news/coronavirus/article242831786.html

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maifleur03

Quarantine does mean no contact with anyone outside of your residence. There are several terms being tossed around but only for political purposes so if you are really interested a research of the exact wording of each states proclamation should be looked at. Good looking because there are 50 states and several territories and dependencies to look at. Different states have ordered different standards of what they expect.

From some of the comments I wonder if people know what an autopsy is? Depending on the state law if someone dies at home who has not been under doctors care the local medical examiner does one. If nothing is found tissue samples are sent to the State Crime Lab and/or directly to the CDC if there is a suspicion that the cause of death was a disease. Depending on when the material is examined and what is found there will be additional cases of the virus but also some that were thought to have been caused by the virus were be found to be of other causes and removed.

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Kathy

I am of the belief that a rural area has no idea what is happening in urban areas where people take public transit and live and work in close quarters. They think the threat is overblown and have so far been protected because the urban areas have not been traveling extensively. They should be thankful that they have less virus and the governors of the larger areas have essentially protected them from the spread. Instead they are fighting to be infected by opening up their areas. Crazy backwards.

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maifleur03

If ak is actually gone I will post why I used quarantine. There were no laws that mentioned "Stay at home" other than through the general heading of Quarantine. There is another general heading of Isolation but that is directed against people who have a disease. I did not think ak would want to understand.

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Kathy

I read an article of how many RW influencers have all of a sudden started posting about their rights are being infringed and blaming Democrats. These are mostly self described Christian bloggers who have made this their focus.

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cattyles

It was said from the beginning of the stay at home measures that if everyone did it right, there would be accusations of “making a big deal out of nothing”. TA DA.

90,000 Americans dead in roughly 2 months isn’t “nothing” but it’s better than it would have been. The belligerent are going to make sure the second wave is worse.

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maifleur03

One of the mysteries of life that some people do not understand is that their bodies do not repair themselves quickly nor are the repairs more than splicing things together so that they will function but the repair is seldom as good as the original as they age.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

@ ak_ok.....

Now that's it's morning I have time to do your research for you to confirm that trump spoke the truth about the science which you refuse to believe -

Trump 6 weeks ago - bragging about his "very good job"

“So you’re talking about 2.2 million deaths, 2.2 million people from this,” Trump said. “And so if we could hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000 — it’s a horrible number, maybe even less — but to 100,000. So we have between 100 and 200,000, and we altogether have done a very good job."

Choose your source, straight from the horse's mouth...you believe trump right?

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+100,000+good+job&sxsrf=ALeKk03TLVHU9OT0zt02VRXSV0qF1EUkaA:1590063971664&ei=Y3PGXviYKIHJ1QH48J3YDQ&start=0&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwi41s3x-cTpAhWBZDUKHXh4B9s4FBDy0wN6BAgLECw&biw=1280&bih=606

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Ziemia(6a)

So, there is a call for those in high-risk categories to isolate themselves. Because the rest see their way of life more important than that of their parents and grandparents.

Thing is, there's still contact via deliveries. And, eventually, the need for those doctor visits will bring us in contact with those younger folk - seems a sneeze or coughing in the doorway 10 minutes ago (by a careless no-mask person) can undo months of safety.

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Ann

The country is opening (and many other countries as well). The goal of flattening the curve was achieved and world economies simply must open at some point. Stay home if you so choose.

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Stan Areted

ANN:

The country is opening (and many other countries as well). The goal of flattening the curve was achieved and world economies simply must open at some point. Stay home if you so choose.



As New Jersey residents chanted when the gym opened earlier this week, USA USA USA!

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bleusblue2

maifleur03

One of the mysteries of life that some people do not understand is that their bodies do not repair themselves quickly nor are the repairs more than splicing things together so that they will function but the repair is seldom as good as the original as they age.

~~~~

Yes -- the death toll is horrible but at the moment we act is if all the survivors get off scott free. I shudder when I read about some of the lingering after effects. And what's happening with the children?

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Kathy

I’m just as anxious to get out as every Republican but I want to be as safe as possible within means. I want workers to be able to work without sacrificing their life and health. I want shops to take as much means as possible to assure clients and workers are safe. I want to get my haircut, get my nails done, shop and eat out without risking my life because someone is careless and doesn’t believe they can be spreading the virus. I actually don’t think I might become immune by subjecting myself to this virus. My thoughts are I might die instead like the thousands who have already.

I’m not a gun carrying, confederate flag, American flag tshirt protestors screaming to open up everything now or else. That is political!

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I want workers to be able to work without sacrificing their life and health. I want shops to take as much means as possible to assure clients and workers are safe.

Exactly!

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Ziemia(6a)

Spike 2, here we come...

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Safety safety safety. The mantra of the entitled and privileged left. How dare anyone care more about the prosperity of themselves and their families than my life. I feel unsafe so everyone must stay home.


Ridiculous.


As rediculous as reopening in "stages" when one week is much the same as the next. As rediculous as open beaches, but banning swimming. As rediculous as wearing masks with your nose hanging out. As rediculous as reusing those homemade masks day after day after day. As rediculous as the use of a pair rubber gloves for hours at a time. As rediculous as mandating "social distancing" as people are funneled and channeled into stores through a single entrance and exit to ensure our "safety". The list is endless.


It is all just rediculous virtue signaling and feel good nonsense.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

when one week is much the same as the next.

Not true.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html

See graphs for Where New Cases Are Increasing - Staying the Same - Decreasing.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

aok,


You need to refer to posters here in the abstract if you attack their positions. Referring to them directly when challenging them by their anonomous screen names is too personal and will result in flagging or complaints.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

The goal of flattening the curve was achieved ....

Well, except that Orange County (Huntington Beach, remember?), is experiencing an all-time high of both confirmed infections and deaths over the past couple of days. The "re-open" protests there were 3 and 2 weeks ago....may be related to that, maybe not, but sort of odd to have a sharp upward spike when trends have otherwise been flat.


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Stan Areted

I want I want I want I want

And it all involves OTHERS doing what "I want."

No news here.

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Ziemia(6a)

Well, one side is saying "I WANT decisions made that keep workers and the public safe".

And another is saying "I WANT to do what I want, when I want regardless of what the public health experts say."

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Stan Areted

The difference is, no one I have heard of is asking people to leave their homes and go to work.

They just want the opportunity to do their jobs.

But there ARE a lot of people that "want", ask and even some DEMAND or SHAME others for NOT doing what they want--staying in and doing nothing, ruining their lives.

There is a huge difference which is quite evident.

BTW, I don't want a thing from anybody--people should just leave me alone and don't try to get into my business or cause me problems or demand money. They can live inside outside I don't care. Knock yourselves out.

As repeated by many, someone else's wants are fine as long as they don't require others to comply with those wants and support their paranoia and fear.


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lurker111

The CDC is now saying that Covid 19 isn't as contagious as previously thought.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

More accurately, doesn't seem to be as readily transmitted by surfaces; main mode seems to be air-borne. Would be "nice" to not see mass, indiscriminate spraying of virucides, to unknown effect, on surfaces in outdoor, public places -- it neither seemed necessary or effective, a waste of time and money.


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Stan Areted


lurker111

The CDC is now saying that Covid 19 isn't as contagious as previously thought.


Well, thanks for that, need to go check the newsfeeds.

This is a conclusion I came to about two weeks ago, fortified by reality and reasoning.

Good Grief, lies, lies, lies. NO ONE can be that wrong all the time without some of it being intentional.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

I wouldn't toss that mask away just yet, Stan.....maybe you should go read the newsfeeds first.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

More accurately, doesn't seem to be as readily transmitted by surfaces; main mode seems to be air-borne.

Those inconvenient following clarifications -- annoying the happy thoughts that Covid isn't readily transmittable.


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patriciae_gw(07)

It was previously thought that Covid-19 was not particularly contagious in the air. That proved wrong a long time ago and the medical community moved on which is one of the reasons we are now wearing masks. This is called a learning curve. It is when you do not pay attention as the parameters change that things get sticky.

Numbers wise

On March 23 on the Johns Hopkins dashboard 550 people were known to have died of Covid-19

550

as of May 21st according to the same source 94,566 people are known to have died. That is two days short of Two Months. We will certainly be well over 96,000 in two more days.

94,566

virtually all of those people would be alive today if not for this virus.

Its a city. A whole city of people.

An that my friends is the death toll with all the safeguards in place that we the people of the United States are capable of. I have said this before. Not news

That is just shy of 1600 a day. That is known deaths. Do you want to talk estimated deaths?

The good news? the last time I did this a couple of weeks ago it was 1660 people a day so fewer people are dying-maybe, or some states are fudging their numbers.



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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“Good Grief, lies, lies, lies. NO ONE can be that wrong all the time without some of it being intentional.”

bahahahahahaha

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catspa_zone9sunset14

I had the same thought, miss lindsey, but decided to focus on the issue relevant to well-being... :-) Thanks for addressing that, too.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“The difference is, no one I have heard of is asking people to leave their homes and go to work.”


Maybe these folks frequent establishments that are run by machine:


To be completely fair, Ms Massage might be an RMT who wants to return to work, and Ms Bars might own/serve at one.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I need a haircut could just remove the wig?

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abzzybee(9/10 S. Florida)

We're pretty much on our own. Warpspeed ahed for the reopening of America and rising numbers of deaths thanks to the covidiots.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Stanford University says it may, in fact, be less lethal than the influenza virus.

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Ziemia(6a)

A statistician gets his moment. He seems to be focused on the likely percentage of those infected (including the "not sick") to those dying. And seems to compare this number to that of the flu. While totally ignoring the large percentage that seem to be infected.

And, do want to relive the 1918 flu pandemic?

So... the following is not true:

"Stanford University says it may, in fact, be less lethal than the influenza virus."

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

People can read the study themselves. Covid may be more communicable, but may be not statistically more deadly.


Seemed relevant to me.


But feel free to go back to wearing the same mask you've been wearing for the last 2 weeks, cause science.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Where can we read the study, Jonnygun?

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adoptedbyhounds

"I am of the belief that a rural area has no idea what is happening in
urban areas where people take public transit and live and work in close
quarters."

Having lived in Oregon for decades, I am well aware of the Democrat's position on land use. The goal is to build up, not out. No more cul de sacs, because they waste land. Relegate humans to living on postage stamp sized lots. Put neighborhoods and commercial spaces together so people will walk to the grocery store...which in Oregon often means lugging them home in the rain. Put houses close to the street so people can sit on their porches and chat with passersby. Run light rail very close to neighborhoods so people won't "need" cars.

These are utopian ideas that come with a downside. Thank you to everyone who has shared how planned density creates a welcoming environment for diseases.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Thank you

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catspa_zone9sunset14

These are utopian ideas that come with a downside. Thank you to everyone who has shared how planned density creates a welcoming environment for diseases.

Well, that's Portland -- what about the rest of Oregon, abh? Lots of Oregon Democrats live out in semi-rural areas on large lots, with livestock, and like it that way, including my sister and brother-in-law and their son and his large family.

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Gooster(9)

The paper by Ioannadis wrote was briefly critiqued in the Merc article above. The main issue is the number of actual deaths worldwide conflicts with the conclusions.


His original study was revised in preprint, critiqued for bias in design, failure to correct for the faliure rate of the unapproved test used, and certain statistical methods. The preprint was revised, and some of the modeling errors were corrected.


That study generated a whistleblower complaint, at Stanford, complete with some email trails showing outside influence with ties to the ariline industry. On researcher was pressured to endorse the test used and she refused due to its reliability. https://www.thenation.com/article/society/stanford-lost-soul-coronavirus/


Another study, from LA, with better experiment design but using the same tests was also publicized at about the same time They revised some of the original issues and were published. Then, just days ago, they did a followup and got a surprising result. The percentage of people tested with antibodies present in a second round of testing actually dropped in half, despite another month of the progression of the disease.

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elvis

Kathy

I’m just as anxious to get out as every Republican but I want to be as safe as possible within means

Every single Republican, huh Kathy?

Okey dokey.

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heri_cles

Little too sarcastic don't you think?

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