Austins are my favorite, hands down, and I have grown them for decades in two different locations. I'm not a fan of Kordes roses in my growing conditions, but I love Tantau roses--so it's not that I don't like German roses. Austins here are bigger, bloomier, more beautiful, and all around better roses for me than Kordes' plants in my garden. This argument will never end, I think. Diane

And where do you garden Diane?

I garden in Boise, Idaho, zone 7. I'm formerly nanadoll, until houzz killed her off--ha. Diane

I've posted this before about ADR roses. The testing is legitimate, but heavily weighted toward Kordes, since Kordes set the test up and created the criteria. Kordes still has membership on the voting board. No Austin rose has ever been submitted for ADR testing, as the rose must be submitted by the breeder. David Austin, for whatever reason, never chose to submit his roses.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADR testing was founded by Wilhelm Kordes.

Almost half of all winners have been Kordes roses.

Roses must be submitted for testing by the hybridizer.

There are currently 178 ADR roses. Older varieties can lose their certification by a vote of the board; many have.

A partial list of current winners is on Wiki. The newer winners are on ADR's site.

Performance testing

ADR website

Wiki ADR List

Your question is too varied to answer all of those qualities. If fragrance is your top quality, you'll have much more consistent results from Austin roses. They were bred from antique varieties and in many cases bred for fragrance (like Evelyn). I have a very poor nose for fragrance in roses but Sharifa Asma is one of about 5 roses out of the 1000 I grow that make my toes curl in delight. There are Kordes roses with some fragrance but they're much more likely than Austins to have little or no scent.

For disease resistance, you'll have much more consistent results from Kordes. Austins are disease resistant in some climates (like mine for the most part) but blackspot miserably in some or mildew badly in others. Kordes roses were bred for disease resistance so it's not surprising they have the edge in this category. Garden Delighjt for instance is a rock solid healthy and hardy rose that blooms its heart out all summer with exuberant color. I grow a ton of Kordes roses and they are much more dependable to have surviving cane after the winter. For the Austins, even the ones that survive the winter well it's unusual to be able to leave much cane on them. Olivia Rose Austin and Teasing Georgia are notable exceptions that have lovely cane survival.

For garden worthiness and frequency of bloom, it really depends on the variety and the location and your particular yard. I have about equal numbers of Austins and Kordes roses in my zone 5 Nebraska garden (maybe 65-75 varieties of each) and on the whole the Kordes strike my eye more for their blooms. The Veranda and Flower Circus series are virtually nonstop bloomers for me, though I don't find their blooms as individually interesting or as graceful as the average Austin. Scepter'd Isle so far is my most reliably continuous blooming Austin (it's in a prime location however), but I rather suspect Olivia will be catching up this year in a much less ideal location. Austins draw my eye (and nose) when they're in bloom, but don't have as much of a presence in my particular garden.

Your particular yard and sun and soil and feng shui (for all I know) also affects how well that particular rose does in your particular care and conditions. A friend in town has a stunning 7'X7' Abraham Darby that pumps out dozens of blooms constantly all summer. My Abraham Darby over 8 years never cleared knee height and maybe produced half a dozen blooms all season. I'm replanting him in a better location and have hopes.

If you're hoping for consensus about these breeders for making rose decisions, you'll be more confused than enlightened by this discussion since we all have our own experiences, priorities, and opinions. If you post about particular roses you're considering or a situation for which you need a rose, we might actually be able to limit our suggestions to a few dozen :)

Cynthia

My climate is similar to Diane's although I am much further south. I'm in the high desert at somewhere in the upper 6,000 ft in elevation. Here, there is no blackspot, so I can't compare Kordes to Austins in that regard. I've tried a number of Kordes roses - Savannah, First Crush, Earth Angel, Iceberg. Of these, only Iceberg wanted to grow and bloom. Although Savannah can grow to huge dimensions in other climates, here it did not want to grow more than about 18" no matter how much water, fertilizer, mulch, alfalfa, fish emulsion was given, or growing in a pot. Except for Iceberg, the Kordes roses here tended to abort buds or not produce them at all. First Crush was planted next to Austins Bishop's Castle and Munstead Wood, in even more heavily amended soil. It was replaced by Earth Angel. Bishop's Castle and Munstead Wood grow vigorously, whereas First Crush dwindled, and Earth Angel required a lot of coddling and fertilizing to grow at all, and produced only a few flowers in its second year. Iceberg does grow vigorously. I have had Austin roses that did not want to grow (Jude the Obscure and Sharifa Asma did not want to bloom much, and Abraham Darby after 5 years is still about 2 feet tall) but overall, they are much happier in this climate than the Kordes.. Something else I've noticed is that the Kordes roses tend to branch higher up and produce few basals, whereas most Austins produce a lot of basal growths.

noseometer:

Was it your Savannah that was pictured here, not that long ago, so covered in large blooms that much of the foliage was hidden?

What has bad Houzz done to the Gardenweb Rose forum?

I was going to say, before reading fig's post, that there might be some bias towards Kordes' roses since the test is in Germany. Fig explains how that works out. Goes to show that when it comes to studies and tests, it is not enough to know results...how the test was set up matters.

I am glad I don't have to choose between Austins and Kordes or Austins and Meilland.

Right now I have a young South Africa plant putting out huge, beautifully formed, fragrant blooms. The plant is squeaky clean and vigorous. I think it's a Kordes.

Fig:

What is the source for your statement that Austin never submitted one of his roses to ADR for testing?

TT ( the OP):

I see you posted this discussion in Perennials and in Smaller Homes.

Why didn’t you choose to post it in Larger Homes, instead of Smaller Homes?

Based on my experience in my zone (humid Florida 9B), some Kordes and Austins behave the same. Vigorous growth putting out long canes with little to no bloom or rebloom. My experience with Kordes is limited to Grand Amore, Beverly, Pink Enchantment and Sunny Skies. Sunny Skies is the only one left. I can't speak to disease resistance since I spay every 10 to 14 days depending on weather and time of year.

Austins for me are trial and error. For example, Teasing Georgia got to be 8 feet wide and 12 feet tall. I got 2 flushes in 5 years. And I tried everything that I know... hard pruning, light pruning, no pruning, no fertilizer, light fertilizer, regular fertilizer and water. She's gone.

I never got a single bloom off Geoff Hamilton in four years

And then some Austins have done well including

Munstead Wood

Darcey Bussell

Abraham Darby

The Alnwick Rose

Carding Mill

The Crocus Rose

Molineux

Jude the Obscure

I also grow Heritage because I love the flower and the scent.

I think one of the previous posters is correct in that both breeders grow so many different roses that it's difficult to make generalizations. It's probably more beneficial to compare specific roses for your zone and growing conditions.

rifis, I have small property with lim space. I want the maximum effect and Fragrance with the space I have

TT, could I interest you in a two foot high Abe Darby? Mine seems to be related to Noseo's Abe. I still call my Abe "Twig Darby" after four years. It's the smallest Austin I've ever grown--most of mine are quite large. But Twig is a lovely little rose and produces lovely smaller blooms. Very strange. Another small, gorgeous Austin is Tamora, a parent of Evelyn. She is a little bloom machine with wicked thorns for which I forgive her. I've grown her for about 13 years, and she's not going to ever be large. Diane

rifis - it could have been my Savannah that you are remembering. When the flowers are 4 inches wide and the plant is only 12 inches tall, it might look like a plant covered with huge flowers. That summer, Savannah refused to grow any further despite some heavy coddling. There was heavy die back in the winter so I removed it and gave it away.

Maximum effect and and fragrance in a small space? You would be hard pressed to do better than Bolero. Of course, YMMV and since roses are very location dependent, it would be helpful if you shared your geographic location so that people from a similar area could contribute.

I just came from HMF, and I have to mention Dianela's outstanding photo of Darcey Bussell blooming next to a rose covered arch over Dianela's front door. If ever there was an advertisement for the beauty of an Austin rose, Dianela's photo is it. Diane

For a not too big plant , very fragrant, heavy bloomer, some good choices would be:

Austin: Munstead Wood

Weeks: Julia Child, Life of the Party

Meilland: Bolero

Kordes: Beverly

Another smaller plant with heavy bloom and nice fragrance is Ralph Moore’s miniature Sweet Chariot, which grows into a nice small rounded shrub.

Never heard of it. Will research, thank you

Thank you very much Diane for such kind words, coming from one of the absolute best rose gardener I have ever seen they mean a lot to me.

TT how small is your yard? What would be the size range you need?

Diane mentioned my Darcey Bussell and I will post pictures for you. I have a very small farm style house, and grow many roses around it. My home is around 1400 sq feet so you have an idea of scale. Some of the roses require pruning to stay compact while others are just smaller naturally. Let me know if any in particular are what you like and I can share any details.

The red rose here is Darcey Bussell, she stays under 5 feet with pruning every late winter/early spring. It blooms 9 months a year in Alabama. Click to expand pictures.

Another view from my porch

From left to right: lichfield angel, Boscobel and Darcey. All stay at around 4 feet. Boscobel does not require pruning here while the others do or they get bigger. In Diane‘s zone Boscobel is a much larger so not all zone 7s are the same.

Here princess Anne is another heavy bloomer with good scent that stays bellow 5 feet with pruning. Here at the beginning of spring I take her down to 2-3feet tall These are some of my heaviest blooming David Austin’s, but there are many and if you have a color preference we can help you find a rose you love.

Yes, Boscobel! Smells like cherry LifeSavers to me.

Dianela, your garden is so incredible. Sigh. Your roses look so happy and lush. Is your Darcy Bussell red-red or is it more towards magenta/purple? That photograph in the DA catalog of DB among the purple salvia is so striking, but I don't think I'd want to try it if DB is toward the fire-engine red or warm red instead of cool red.

Oh my, Dianela, what concentrated beauty. I love the way you put it all together. Princess Anne and Darcy Bussell are favorites, I think, but I also love your Boscobel. He looks gorgeous. I would love to have a nine month bloom season--I didn't realize yours was so long, but Alabama is waaay south of here. Latitude matters. I think I need to tear out our grass (as if I could), but I really want some of these beauties you've grown so well. I love your fence, too. Diane

Austin vs Kordes I don’t know the answer but I tend to think it really comes down to the rose variety, soil conditions and location.

What I do know is Dianela your roses are so pretty! I love everything about your garden.

Wow Daniela, absolutely beautiful. Wow. My home is about the same size home. But my yard is probably smaller. I’m not sure exactly how big. I’ll probably post that some other time. Thank you so much for all these beautiful pictures

Diane thanks 😊. My style is cram it all together and see what happens lol. I really need some help with companions, but I have saved some of your threads to try and learn. My husband said the other other day “you like the house to be empty and the garden to be crazy”. He is right, I like my house to be kind of minimalistic decorated, no clutter and very neutral light colors, and the garden just full of plants. On a good warm year here the roses bloom from April to early December. If we get an early freeze is all over. So, you still have grass you could remove? Any chance you could use round up and make more space? I wish I was closer, I could come help you. Your Boscobel was the inspiration to get mine and if I could ever just have one rose base on the beauty of the blooms Boscobel would be it for me.

I love my Kordes roses and I love my Austins, each for different characteristics but if push came to shove I’d have to go with the Austins because of fragrance.

I love both and can't live without neither! Most Kordes roses are not only beautiful but also very disease resistant. Kordes has a very vigorous testing program for new rose introductions that lasts years. Fragrance is one of the traits evaluated but it is only one of many as they put a lot of emphasis on vigor, heat tolerance, cold hardiness and disease resistance. I use Kordes roses in the main landscape - lining the pathway, climbing on the brick wall, obelisks and fences, being the backdrop for the koi pond and framing the decks, etc. Summer Romance, First Crush, Savannah, Honeymoon, Earth Angle, Kiss Me Kate, Quicksilver and Florentina are good examples.

David Austin roses have the charm you may find in the Old Garden Rose's delicacy, elegance and naturalistic look (i.e. drape and nod) but need regular spraying to look terrific. I put them in groups of three of the same kind in two dedicated beds mixed with a variety of evergreens. Some of the David Austin roses are reliable enough to be put in the main landscape too! Olivia, Roald Dahl, The Mayflower, Princess Anne and Spirit of Freedom...just to name a few. Keep in mind that where you buy DA roses from is important as to how they grow. They are monsters on Dr. Huey or Fortuniana in warm climates, not so bad on Multiflora and better on Laxa. Own root ones take a long time to establish.

The French company Meilland also produces fantastic roses. I grow some of their Romantica Series roses in a separate "cut garden". I believe their roses are mostly bred for a warm climate (think Lyon & Provence).

Dianela - Good Grief!!! Talk about an enchanted rose garden!! Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous!!!! Thank you for posting it...and thank you Diane for mentioning it!!! Oh my!! Your Princess Anne is soooo beautiful!!! I also adore your Darcey Bussell and Boscobel!! I wish I could grow Austins well. Thank you!! Thank you!! for the pictures!!

Noseometer - cherry lifesavers...I love that smell!!! Is it a barely there fragrance, medium or strong?? Good glory your Boscobel is incredible!!! I just can't stand it!!! I want all of these roses in my yard right now. LOL I've got pots where you look and say..."Is there anything but dirt in there?" Sigh.

Need more rose, enjoyed your informative post. I will keep this in mind with my future planning. In general I have found many of the Austin’s pretty large and I need to be very selective with watching for ones that mature on the more smaller side due to my small yard. I always think what will everything look like in five years once fully grown.

I enjoy both.

Thank you so much to all that gave me wonderful insight and advices. I can’t wait to post pictures later on when everything start blooming. Thank you again

I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of your new plants blooming. Daniela, what are the climbers you have growing on that fence? They look very happy.

Vapor sorry I just saw this post. I keep missing notifications no matter who many times I change the settings.

the roses on the fence are super Dorothy and excelsa. They were blackspotty the first two years but I have to say after year three they have been very carefree.

They are supposed to repeat but so far just one major bloom right now and then scattered blooms through the year, nothing worth mentioning. Wonderful flexible once bloomers tho.

sorry I don’t know why my iPhone is taking hazy pictures lately

That fence is just stunning, Dianela (and everything else). Maybe the haze is houzz--sounds like poem potential there. Diane

Really stunning! Is that Super Excelsia or the original?

Thank you Diane very much! The weeds are really starting to get going at this point so I have grand plans of crawling through the entire bed with my roundup sponge. It is not a pretty business but it works.

Vapor sorry it is Super Excelsia and not the original. I remember getting them because Heirloom claimed they were more blackspot resistant.

I think we need more detail on the RU sponge! Dianela, thank you so much for letting me know about these two roses in your garden. I know we have different strains of BS, but it does help to compare. I've today concluded that I have to throw in the towel and spray if I want anything approaching your garden or Kenneth's. It just a disaster over here between 7" of rain in 48 hours and cooler weather perfect for BS, I've hardly seen a bloom before they're losing leaves. We've been over 20F below average. Some roses have barely broken dormancy and I don't know what to do with them. They're alive, but frozen in time with the crazy skinny leaves. The sad DDesire I moved has two pitiful flowers with not a leaf in sight. She never leafed out after being frozen back. Anyway, I'm feeling very dispirited after so much work last year and this spring. A few stalwarts remain pristine, but they're on lower levels that are quagmires to access. Right now, I'm plucking them for the house to enjoy their scents. ....sigh. A few bright notes are the extraordinary blooms on Cl.Clotilde Souper that have opened beautifully and the heart-pounding scent of Cl. Crimson Glory and Mrs. Anthony Waterer. Sorry for the OT woe-is-me rant. L((

Needmorerose, Your garden sounds absolutely enchanting based on all the roses that you described! I would love to see pictures.

Vapor, I am so feeling for you. That weather sounds impossible and something you should have sent west to arid areas. Do what you have to do. I'd probably let it be and know next year will be better but that is a long time ahead and who knows what could happen by then. Looking at BS 24/7 could be too much on top of all else I won't mention.

Dianela, that rose covered fence is gorgeous! Will the roses completely obscure the fence at some point? I’m torn between imagining how beautiful that “floating hedge“ of roses would look, and thinking the fence is too nice to hide. The hazy picture really shows how how multiples of the same rose make a beautiful, classy, high impact effect without looking chaotic. I’m gleefully guilty of the later effect. Chaos seems to be one of my only consistencies. The combination of dark and light pink roses is really nice. I’d like to think I’d do something similar, had I more real estate than I do.

I agree about Darcey Bussell. I think you’d like her Noseo. I’m one who absolutely doesn’t like fire engine red, or red with an orange cast to it. The closest to red rose I grow is Darcey Bussell. She leans toward the blue/violet spectrum. She needs twice yearly pruning here, but mine is grafted on Dr Huey.

Carol and Noseo, I’m going to go sniff Boscobel right after I hit submit. I hope I smell cherry Lifesavers!

I enjoy both Kordes and Austins. I’m so glad I don’t have to chose just one! Fun and informative topic! Lisa

Vapor I will have to show you pictures of my roses that are barely 8” tall in their second year to make you feel better.

this is my fifth spring in middle Tennessee and by far the coldest and wettest and longest spring.

not the pretty sunshine and wildflowers people imagine ha

I started spraying this year and can’t actually do it because of the rain.

my roses are getting the yellow leaves because the clay soil Can’t drain quickly enough.

Dianela - that fence...I don't know how such wonderful rose "magic" can happen!!! It's totally wowza!!! A round-up sponge!! I need that for a really invasive weed. I can't control it by picking. Maybe I could use a paintbrush.

Vaporvac - you should have seen me last summer with my pity party. LOL Seriously, I really hope your roses get better. They mean sooo much to us!

Lisa - let us know how strong the fragrance is too. Cherry Lifesavers...oh my!

jc - you're getting lots of rain, too? Darn. Hope they get better soon, too.

rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)

28 days ago

Fig:

What is the source for your statement that Austin never submitted one of his roses to ADR for testing?

Fig?

Regardless how much I admire some Kordes roses, they often don't thrive in my heavy clay. The much loved Quicksilver, about 5 yrs. old, 6' tall, healthy going into winter, was dead by the end of this very mild winter. Summer Romance, First Crush, Dark Desire, Pink Enchantment, Iceberg - white, burgundy and pink, I could go on, didn't make it through their first winters. Fingers crossed for Kiss Me Kate. Crazy Love just languishes, not growing, not dying. Poseidon isn't looking too promising. Earth Angel looks great but doesn't bloom. However, Austins love these conditions. Next best, for me, are Meilland roses.

Vapor, I hear your frustration. Same here, rain and even snow. Then, the wind blows in more weed seeds from the meadows. The weeds are magnificent this year. I don't want to spray. My husband suggested Preen after we've weeded an area, but it's just another form of RU, isn't it? We don't eat the roses, but there are still people on wells around here. The weeds are doing better than the roses. What to do, what to do.....

Flowers, I'm so sorry to read about your beautiful Quick Silver, as well as the other losses. Weeds--ugh. But your mention of Preen had me checking on this product. I had always read that Preen is just corn gluten and is harmless to garden plants. Organic Garden Preen is indeed corn gluten, and can be used in your flower beds as a pre-emergent weed preventer. But there are several other kinds of Preen that aren't so innocuous. They are: Preen Extended Weed Control that contains trifluralin, which is toxic to aquatic life; and Preen Grass and Weed Killer (like Roundup) and contains glyphosate. If you get the Organic Garden Preen to prevent weeds from coming back, it should be safe around your flowers. Diane

I have a loamy clay here in zone 6. I have tried a number of Austins and I loved them, but I usually ended up with some kind of foliage issue. It's been awhile, so I don't remember what. I keep trying different roses that are thought to be good in a no spray garden and last spring I planted - Savannah and Beverly and Pope John Paul.

Savannah is a Kordes - my first. It was enjoyable in it's first season. Pretty foliage and I liked the color and texture of the blooms. It didn't grow too much or produce many flowers, but I didn't expect a lot in it's first year starting off bare root from Palatine. But by the end of the season, it was suddenly showing some problem with one of the canes. Not insects, but disease. I left it alone and just hoped for the best this spring.

This spring, it had some leaf buds on it, but they deteriorated as soon as they opened and while the other roses were pushing out more buds and then opening leaves, Savannah did nothing and looked worse. So I decided to cut all the canes back to the ground. And I thought that was the end of it really, but to my surprise, it sprouted new canes - about 3 of them. Right now it's about 6-8" tall and has leafed out and looks okay. Not a great start for a rose though.

Beverly is another Kordes and last year it did fine and produced more flowers than Savannah and looked healthy. This year it has filled out with leaves. I usually have roses starting to open by June 1st, so, we'll see how it does this year. The foliage looked clean all season last year and so far this year too.

Maybe by the end of this season I'll be able to make a better comparison.

Thanks a million, Diane, for looking that up. I was going to later tonight and you saved me the trouble. I'm going out to buy a bunch of it in the morning and get it on my newly weeded beds.

Yeah, poor Quicksilver. I did not see that coming. It looked great last year. I'm not sure if I'll try it again or not. I was told it is a water hog so I made sure it was hydrated going into winter, then we had rain in early spring, so I don't think it was dry. But, that's typical of Kordes for me.

Yes, thank you Diane. I bought some too!

Thank you guys. I've just been feeling a little woe is me which is ridiculous. I'm getting some beautiful flowers, but just can't be outside to enjoy them. Everything here is covered in green. Ughh. Carol, I do remember your travails last year. What mess that was for you.

Vaporvac - yes...it was a wasted season. I don't want that again. I've ordered a worm set-up and I've got alfalfa pellets. So fingers crossed.