Why Does the President Keep Pushing a Malaria Drug?

Cindy Outter

Two weeks ago, French doctors published a provocative observation in a microbiology journal. In the absence of a known treatment for COVID-19, the doctors had taken to experimentation with a potent drug known as hydroxychloroquine. For decades, the drug has been used to treat malaria—which is caused by a parasite, not a virus. In six patients with COVID-19, the doctors combined hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin (known to many as “Z-Pak,” an antibiotic that kills bacteria, not viruses) and reported that after six days of this regimen, all six people tested negative for the virus.


The report caught the eye of the celebrity doctor Mehmet Oz, who has since appeared on Fox News to talk about hydroxychloroquine 21 times. As Oz put it to Sean Hannity, “This French doctor, [Didier] Raoult, a very famous infectious-disease specialist, had done some interesting work at a pilot study showing that he could get rid of the virus in six days in 100 percent of the patients he treated.” Raoult has made news in recent years as a pan-disciplinary provocateur; he has questioned climate change and Darwinian evolution. On January 21, at the height of the coronavirus outbreak in China, Raoult said in a YouTube video, “The fact that people have died of coronavirus in China, you know, I don’t feel very concerned.” Last week, Oz, who has been advising the president on the coronavirus, described Raoult to Hannity as “very impressive.” Oz told Hannity that he had informed the White House as much.

Anthony Fauci is not among the impressed. The day the study came out, Fauci, the leading infectious-disease expert advising the White House’s coronavirus task force, downplayed the findings as “anecdotal.” The report was not a randomized clinical trial—one in which many people are followed to see how their health fares, not simply whether a virus is detectable. And Oz’s “100 percent” interpretation involves conspicuous omissions. According to the study itself, three other patients who received hydroxychloroquine were too sick to be tested for the virus by day six (they were intubated in the ICU). Another had a bad reaction to the drug and stopped taking it. Another was not tested because, by day six, he had died.

Nonetheless, the day after Raoult’s study was published, Donald Trump tweeted about it: “HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE & AZITHROMYCIN, taken together, have a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine.” In the days since, Trump has repeatedly returned to this claim. On Saturday, he said that the term game changer wouldn’t even adequately describe the drug: “It will be wonderful. It will be so beautiful. It will be a gift from heaven, if it works.” After downplaying the value of ventilators and social distancing, measures that experts overwhelmingly agree are needed to overcome the virus, Trump said the country would procure 29 million doses of hydroxychloroquine for a national stockpile. He said he may start taking the drug himself.


Over the course of these two weeks, the president of the United States has become the world’s most prominent peddler of medical misinformation. While some very early evidence has shown that hydroxychloroquine may influence the course of COVID-19, Trump is overriding his top medical adviser and minimizing serious risks by encouraging Americans to try the drug right now. This brazen dispensation of medical advice from the president is dangerous in ways beyond the potential harm of the drug itself. A time of strict directives for personal behavior and hygiene requires tremendous trust in those giving the directives—and understanding the reality that this is a disease without a miracle cure. But instead of inspiring trust, Trump has pivoted from downplaying the number of cases in the United States to the extremely effective trick of quack medical providers: hyping an unproven treatment that entices desperate people with false confidence and confusing messaging.

It is unclear how hydroxychloroquine would work to treat COVID-19, but the drug is one of many now being urgently studied for the treatment of the disease. The drugs being tested include those that could block viral replication, such as remdesivir, and others that may target the way the virus binds to human cells. Still other drugs aim to modulate a person’s immune response, among them a class of drugs known as IL-6 inhibitors. Hydroxychloroquine has the theoretical potential to affect the virus itself or the immune response. In addition to treating malaria, hydroxychloroquine is important in the treatment of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus. In those specific conditions, the drug effectively serves to subdue an overactive immune response.


Slowing the immune system too far, though, could make people more susceptible to infection. Other drugs that suppress inflammation—steroids and ibuprofen—initially generated some enthusiasm as methods of controlling the immune response in COVID-19. They have since shown mixed results and are not widely recommended. Even in people without the disease, hydroxychloroquine’s potentially harmful effects range from vomiting and headaches to instances of psychosis, loss of vision, and even sudden cardiac death. The drug is to be used with caution in people with heart conditions and liver dysfunctionboth of which the coronavirus can itself cause.

Based on the limited evidence so far, giving hydroxychloroquine to people could very well be—as with most drugs that modulate the immune system—of some benefit in some circumstances. Some people will be made sicker by it, depending on underlying physiology, other medications they’re taking, timing, and dosing. Identifying who stands to benefit and why requires data, and several randomized controlled studies of hydroxychloroquine are under way.


But Trump has plunged ahead. On March 28, amid his constant enthusiasm, the FDA issued an emergency authorization allowing the use of hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID-19. Even still, the agency urged that the drug should be given only to patients “for whom a clinical trial is not available, or participation is not feasible.”

Some hospitals in the U.S., including Massachusetts General Hospital, have begun incorporating hydroxychloroquine into treatment protocols, at the discretion of an infectious-disease specialist. Other institutions are more guarded. At the University of Washington, doctors are advised in official treatment policy that although the drug has been shown to inhibit replication of the virus in cultures of monkey kidney cells, “it has not been shown to be an effective antiviral” in living organisms. The University of Michigan Medical School advises its doctors that “the current body of literature and local experience does not support the routine use of any specific treatment regimen, including hydroxychloroquine, for patients with confirmed COVID-19 infection.”

Conclusions like these draw on the fact that the body of evidence remains small, and the results are mixed. A randomized trial of 30 patients with COVID-19 in Shanghai found no difference in detectable virus at day seven, with or without hydroxychloroquine. Another recentstudy suggested that the drug may help with COVID-19 symptoms, including coughing and fever, but it included only 62 people with mild cases of the disease, and excluded anyone with conditions that could be exacerbated by hydroxychloroquine. In mid-March, Italian and Israeli researchersconcluded that there were sufficient grounds to continue doing research with the drug, but that any use should be closely monitored. The scientists advised against widely unleashing yet another medical variable during the pandemic.


In the U.S., Fauci continues to hold the same line as the rest of the medical community—cautious optimism, with a close eye on the many ongoing clinical trials. Trump, meanwhile, escalates as a peddler. “What do you have to lose?” the president said in a press conference on Saturday. “I’ll say it again: What do you have to lose? Take it. I really think they should take it. But it’s their choice. And it’s their doctor’s choice, or the doctors in the hospital.” At a briefing yesterday, he intercepted a question for Fauci about hydroxychloroquine and told the reporter that the doctor wouldn’t be answering it.


What do you have to lose? is a dark sentiment from a president managing a crisis that his administration failed to prepare for: It failed to develop testing, failed to communicate, and failed to have enough face masks for doctors. There is, in fact, much to lose. Americans also need hydroxychloroquine to treat serious immune conditions and parasitic diseases. Since Trump began promoting the drug, people have beenhoarding it, and it has been added to the growing list of drug shortages. Two weeks ago, in an attempt to procure some, an Arizona couple ingested chloroquine, which is meant to be used in fish tanks. The man died.

In such moments, the appeal of any treatment that could offer a glimmer of hope is understandable. But even if hydroxychloroquine eventually proves to be safe and useful to some people with the disease, touting it constantly distracts from the immediate needs of the crisis. Now is not a time to abandon the tried and true systems that keep people safe and create order. It’s a time to double down on the systems developed over decades to help us find the best treatments for diseases, and make sure that they are safe and effective. What do you have to lose? follows the logic of removing stop signs because they might slow people trying to get to the hospital.

In his capricious responses to this pandemic, Trump has given little indication that he respects, or even comprehends, the reasons for the scientific process. Hydroxychloroquine could end up as part of the treatment approach that one day saves lives. Outside of a proper testing process and clear messaging, it could cost lives. Addressing a world in a collective state of despair, Trump offers exaggerated hope and endangers people as he rambles.


On Saturday, Trump suggested research exists that shows people with lupus don’t get the coronavirus, implying that their use of hydroxychloroquine protects them. “There’s a rumor out there that because it takes care of lupus very effectively, as I understand it, and it’s a, you know, a drug that’s used for lupus,” he said, “so there’s a study out there that says people that have lupus haven’t been catching this virus. Maybe it’s true; maybe it’s not.”

There is no such study.


Source:Why Does the President Keep Pushing a Malaria Drug?


The author JAMES HAMBLIN, M.D., is a staff writer at The Atlantic. He is also a lecturer at Yale School of Public Health and author of the forthcoming book Clean.

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Blanche Dubois

Pharma-Funded Group Promoting Malaria Drug to Trump Is Tied to Top Trump Donor


https://truthout.org/articles/pharma-funded-group-promoting-malaria-drug-to-trump-is-tied-to-top-trump-donor/

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mrskjun(9)

Because according to many drs. it works.

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Rory

I also would imagine that people with Lupus are really hunkering down. I have 2 friends, 1 with Lupus & 1 with MS, they have not left their home since mid March. They take social distancing seriously. They may not be getting CV because they are completely isolated.

I don't believe anything Trump says.

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shead

The bigger question is why people keep posting about it on here and asking why he's doing it? There's already numerous threads going discussing it so why start another one?

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Blanche Dubois

"Because according to many drs. it works."

Link please.

I looked up your quote but could only find

Doctors and pharmacists from more than half a dozen large healthcare systems in New York, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Ohio, Washington and California told Reuters they are using hydroxychloroquine on patients hospitalized with COVID-19. At the same time, several said they have seen no evidence that the drug, used for years to treat malaria and autoimmune disorders, has any effect on the virus.


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soupgirl53

It is probably a few doctors that think it works. The prudent doctors who, hopefully, are the majority of our doctors are waiting for the conclusion of the clinic trials which will determine whether or not hydroxycholoriquine is effective for treating Covid-19.

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katrina_ellen

Why do you think? Its getting results. We have a major hospital here collecting the data using this drug and with good results reported. Would you rather it not work because Trump brought it up? How dismal for the dems, resorting to wishing a drug to help wouldn't work so they can prove Trumps words wrong, and by the way, he said it may be a help, that it was being researched, get it right at least.

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Blanche Dubois

Link Katrina? Or the name of the hospital and I will find it.

Sweden has mostly stopped using the drug because of side effects.

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live_wire_oak

Money.



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Nana H

Wonder where Rudy got $2M $2M............and just last month.

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lurker111

Thank goodness for Trump's Right to Try law. Think of how many people will be saved from not having to wait on the old method.

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lurker111

5 year trend on Novartis. Not a good stock to buy, especially in February.


.

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ubro(2a)

How dismal for the dems, resorting to wishing a drug to help wouldn't work so they can prove Trumps words wrong, and by the way, he said it may be a help, that it was being researched, get it right at least.

An intelligent leader would have said, 'I am not a doctor nor an expert, I will not comment, I will leave that up to those who know more about it than me".

How dismal is it that a POTUS will not allow his expert Dr. Fauci to field a question well within his knowledge. How dismal is it that Trump actually believes he is more intelligent and better equipped to answer that question.


Trump did not just say it may help, his words were......

“I’ll say it again: What do you have to lose? Take it. I really think they should take it. But it’s their choice. And it’s their doctor’s choice, or the doctors in the hospital.”

Of course spoken like a true fool, he qualifies his urging with the caveat that it is the doctors choice, giving himself a release point should his advice be wrong.

One of the major facts of being a leader is that your words are taken seriously, people believe that what you say has been vetted, and proven to be true. They hired you to make sure that in bad times they are safe and what you propose as a way of keeping them safe works. That is the danger of his words.



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foodonastump

Lurker- Which raises the question, why did he? That’s not a small amount.

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ubro(2a)

5 year trend on Novartis. Not a good stock to buy, especially in February.

Exactly!!! so now expect it to go up, IMO that is Trump's motive and he has a dog in that race.

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Nana H

According to the charts it was tanking in February into March and all of a sudden started a turn around about March 23. Wonder when Trump started peddling it?

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lurker111

Looks like he bought it at it's all time high. I wouldn't invest in anything related to a cure for the coronavirus. It would only be good for the short term...If you're lucky.

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lurker111

You may want to check with HT to confirm it is allowed to peddling stocks.

No one is peddling stocks. Stick to reality, please. Thanks.

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Nana H

lurker, we don't know when in February he bought it. May have bought it on it's way down in anticipation of a turnaround in March.

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lurker111

Bad planning.

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Kathy

The Job Creators Network was founded in 2011 by billionaire Home Depot co-founder Bernard Marcus, a major GOP donor who spent more than$7 million through outside groups to help elect Trump in 2016. Marcus has said that he plans to spend part of his fortune to help re-elect Trump in 2020.


Job Creators Network has been funded by Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), a drug industry trade that counts among its members leading hydroxychloroquine makers Novartis, Teva Pharmaceuticals, and Bayer. According to tax documents, PhRMA donated $500,000 to Job Creators Network in 2017.


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vgkg (Va Z-7)

"Wonder where Rudy got $2M $2M............and just last month."

Rudy's butt dialing for his rich pals in Bahrain must have done the trick.

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Nana H

Not bad planning if you have a powerful pal willing to back you and then manipulate the market

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lurker111

I have very wealthy lifelong friends in Bahrain. They could afford to give me a few million and not miss at beat. In fact, I've been told they are the richest family in Bahrain. My mother almost married one after my parents divorced. I wish she would have. :^)

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olliesmom

I have never seen so much paranoia.

It can't be the President knows this is the only drug available at this moment to save some people lives?? What other drug at this very moment do we have??

In most cases, there aren't even side effects, same side effects as aspirin.

Is it for every single person? No. But, your doctor should know if you are a candidate to take it or not.

There is no conspiracy.

eta: If President Trump was touting like a lot of you are, but instead, saying NO WAY should we be using this drug until it is proven by FDA, etc-you would be saying the total opposite and you know it!

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lurker111

Everything on my watch list is up right now, except for Verizon. I probably won't buy today.

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Ann

"Link please.

I looked up your quote but could only find"

Blanche, you want a link? Heck, I'm still waiting for the 4 hour/8 hour viable in system link from you.

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Ann

"Would you rather it not work because Trump brought it up?"

Lol, we certainly all know the answer to this.

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shead

Exactly, olliesmom! They'd be hellbent on proving him wrong....."See, I took it and did FINE with it! Trump's an idiot for not recommending this.....same side effects as aspirin!"


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tryingtounderstand

I trust this process a lot more, maybe the President can begin to promote it as well.

“Evidence mounts 'severely ill' coronavirus patients could be helped by experimental plasma transfusion”

If he does, wanna bet, he will get support? why? Cause of the science and medicine behind it, that’s all it takes! Medicine and Science are the way to go

https://www.foxnews.com/science/evidence-mounts-severely-ill-coronavirus-patients-helped-plasma-transfusion


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lurker111

I trust this process a lot more, maybe the President can begin to promote it as well

Trump and Fauci have been promoting that for about a month, now.

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Ann

He is promoting plasma transfusion TTU. This from Denver 7 News (ABC), four days ago:

"Although President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence said the next week would be difficult, Trump and members of the White House task force expressed optimism over several potential treatments to combat COVID-19.

Two treatments that Trump and FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn said are showing signs of promise are convalescent plasma and hydroxychloroquine. Hydroxychloroquine has been a treatment that Trump has been backing for several weeks, but it was not until last week that the FDA gave the green light for doctors to use the treatment under an emergency use authorization. An emergency use authorization allows doctors to prescribe drugs that aren’t approved treatments by judging that the potential benefits outweighs the risks."

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JodiK

"...In addition to treating malaria, hydroxychloroquine is important
in the treatment of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis
and lupus. In those specific conditions, the drug effectively serves to
subdue an overactive immune response.
"

As a Lupus patient, I would have to say "effectively" is subjective in the treatment of the disease. But that's just been my own experience, with the large regimen of pharmaceuticals thrown at patients with autoimmune diseases. There are other options available.

But anyway...

I would think a more likely scenario for the push of any drug at this time would be more monetary than anything.

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Ann

"As a Lupus patient, I would have to say "effectively" is subjective in the treatment of the disease. But that's just been my own experience, with the large regimen of pharmaceuticals thrown at patients with autoimmune diseases."

My mom had Lupus and I'm certain she would have completely agreed with you regarding her various autoimmune disease treatment plans.

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olliesmom

Tryingtounderstand says: "If he does, wanna bet, he will get support? why? Cause of the science and medicine behind it, that’s all it takes! Medicine and Science are the way to go"

^^^^^

Science wants the perfect outcome, sometimes we don't have the time for perfect, we have to take what is good. Don't sacrifice the good, for perfect. That's all we have right now.

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HU-885118952

Malaria drug? OMG, how about all the other uses? If a old drug can treat a new disease, why on earth would any human being overlook it?

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Nana H

"Would you rather it not work because Trump brought it up?"

Lol, we certainly all know the answer to this."

No you don't. Apparently making assumptions about what others think is only wrong if its a liberal.

It has been explained a hundred times why some object to Trump's promotion of the drug but as usual several Trump supporters choose to dismiss those stated reasons and decided themselves what the motivations of others are.

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adoptedbyhounds

"It is probably a few doctors that think it works."


I thought people who need it for other diseases can't find it because docs around the world are using it for Covid19 patients.


"The prudent doctors who, hopefully, are the majority of our doctors are waiting for the conclusion of the clinic trials which will determine whether or not hydroxycholoriquine is effective for treating Covid-19."


Clinical trials will eventually sort out the variables to determine what accounts for the recoveries in patients who have been prescribed the drug and then recovered.


During a pandemic, what makes a practicing physician "prudent" to wait months for clinical trials, when around the world, doctors in the field report it is working? I'll leave it to doctors and their patients to decide how best to proceed.

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Ziemia(6a)

Surely there's signs of improvement at this place - though * can't find them

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5892873/tx-city-nursing-home-residents-with-covid-being-treated-with-hcq#n=26

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bleusblue2

lurker111

Thank goodness for Trump's Right to Try law. Think of how many people will be saved from not having to wait on the old method.

~~~

There is a "right to try law"? I understood that a doctor has always been able to prescribe a drug off label. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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soupgirl53

Medicine by the "monkey see, monkey do" method.

Sounds real good.

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palisades_

There is a "right to try law"? I understood that a doctor has always been able to prescribe a drug off label. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes you’re right. I haven’t looked into the details of it, but my thoughts that it may provide more liability protection for MD and override refusal to dispense by pharmacists.

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palisades_

Surely there's signs of improvement at this place - though * can't find them

That may explain why. Of course, you can’t find them, nor anyone else, until due time.

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adoptedbyhounds

"There is a "right to try law"? I understood that a doctor has always been able to prescribe a drug off label. Correct me if I'm wrong."


Off label use applies to approved drugs, which can be prescribed by doctors for unapproved use. Right to try is different, as the FDA explains:

An eligible patient is a patient who has:

  • Been diagnosed with a life-threatening disease or condition
  • Exhausted approved treatment options and is unable to participate in a clinical trial involving the eligible investigational drug (this must be certified by a physician who is in good standing with their licensing organization or board and who will not be compensated directly by the manufacturer for certifying)
  • And has provided, or their legally authorized representative has provided, written informed consent regarding the eligible investigational drug to the treating physician

An eligible investigational drug is an investigational drug:

  • For which a Phase 1 clinical trial has been completed
  • That has not been approved or licensed by the FDA for any use
  • For which an application has been filed with the FDA or is under investigation in a clinical trial that is intended to form the primary basis of a claim of effectiveness in support of FDA approval and is the subject of an active investigational new drug application submitted to the FDA
  • Whose active development or production is ongoing, and that has not been discontinued by the manufacturer or placed on clinical hold by the FDA

https://www.fda.gov/patients/learn-about-expanded-access-and-other-treatment-options/right-try

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adoptedbyhounds

The article says many hospitals are trying the drug. Cardiac issues are already known to occur with this drug. It has been around for decades. As one would expect, patients are being monitored. Thanks for sharing.

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Kathy

I could be wrong, it would take some searching but I did read the heart problem occurred with the initial antibiotic given in conjunction with the HCQ. They are substituting the anti biotic to lessen that side effect.

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palisades_

That is true Kathy. The combo can be fatal in the geriatric population where most seniors have weaken hearts or heart failures. So I don’t expect the combo be used on them.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

How many hospitals are using ECG monitoring of patients receiving hydroxychloroquine to combat coronavirus? How many hospitals have the extra personnel to check the ECG results?

*

https://www.newsweek.com/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-france-heart-cardiac-1496810

A hospital in France has had to stop an experimental treatment using hydroxychloroquine on at least one coronavirus patient after it became a "major risk" to their cardiac health.

The University Hospital Center of Nice (CHU de Nice) is one of many hospitals trialing hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19 patients. It announced it had been selected for the trial on March 22. A statement from the hospital said it was testing four experimental treatments, one of which included hydroxychloroquine. It hoped to establish its effectiveness and side effects of this and the other treatments being tested.

In an interview with the French daily newspaper Nice-Matin, Professor Émile Ferrari, the head of the cardiology department at the Pasteur hospital in Nice, said the side effects had already been identified, with some patients having to stop treatment because of the risk posed.

He said electrocardiogram recordings of patients involved with the trial were being constantly monitored. An ECG measures electrical activity in the heart, and represents this on a graph as a QT interval. Ferrari said these recordings are interpreted and, if anomalies are reported, treatment is stopped.

Asked if this had happened yet, he said: "Yes, from the start of the trial. Thanks to this ECG follow-up, we highlighted the major risks of a very serious accident in a patient, and the treatment was immediately stopped."

The potential cardiac side effects of hydroxychloroquine were highlighted by the Mayo Clinic at the end of March. An article on its website said the drug has the potential to lead to sudden cardiac death in some patients. In a small number of patients it has the potential to lead to a prolonged QTc , which can result in an abnormal heart rhythm.

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Gizmo

Ackerman and his Mayo Clinic colleagues created a cardiac algorithm,
published in Mayo Clinic Proceedings, to help physicians more safely
prescribe hydroxychloroquine by identifying patients at greatest risk
for drug-induced sudden cardiac death.

While hydroxychloroquine is
likely to be safe for 90 percent of the population, Ackerman said, it
could pose serious and potentially lethal risks to a small number of
those susceptible to heart conditions, especially those with other
chronic medical problems already on multiple medications.

In fact, a small recent study showed
that up to 11 percent of coronavirus patients on hydroxychloroquine and
azithromycin are in the so-called “red zone” for potential cardiac side
effects.

~

To tout this drug as Trump and his henchmen (and doctors!) are
doing, without any proven benefit, saying “you have nothing to lose”
when more than 10% of people who get it could die of cardiac
complications because of it, is criminal.

I hope Fox News has set aside a huge pile of money to pay out lawsuit
settlements because they are going to need it.
Trump will skate,
ofcourse. He always does. But I hope there are ads this fall featuring
the families of people who died in this pandemic holding him responsible
for the deaths. Unlike the trumped up Benghazi crusade the GOP waged
against Hillary Clinton, this one is real. His inaction and lies have
killed people.


To read

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Ziemia(6a)

"Science wants the perfect outcome,"

Nope.

Not even close.

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lurker111

I doubt that you're going to find a "one drug treats all" for anything.

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lurker111

saying “you have nothing to lose”
when more than 10% of people who get it could die of cardiac
complications because of it, is criminal.

lol!

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palisades_

"Science wants the perfect outcome“

Nope.

Not even close.

Absolutely. Many applications from different sciences do. But you read for the context and not grabbing a piece and run with it.

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shead

I don't think I'd be calling doctors criminals as they are the ones who decide who gets a ventilator or not.

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Ziemia(6a)

Science wants nothing. Science is process and knowledge.

Scientists, some, seek perfect outcomes - relationships.

Context is understood just fine.

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Ziemia(6a)

Why is he focused on this cocktail - when there's more being examined and trialed

"BOSTON (KDVR) -- A Colorado family of doctors and its research counterparts - who are affiliated with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard’s Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center - are optimistic about its studies into an anti-blood clotting drug and the medication’s potential to help COVID-19 patients.

“(These patients are) forming clots in their legs and their lungs and their heart, and so this, we think, makes sense,” Dr. Gene Moore said."

https://kdvr.com/news/coronavirus/colorado-doctors-test-anti-blood-clot-treatment-on-covid-19-patients-optimistic-about-results-so-far/

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heri_cles

There is ZERO scientific evidence that hydroxychloroquine prevents or cures infection from Covid-19. ....ZERO. You might as well pray.

Hydroxychloroquine is a Trump Hoax !

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lurker111

They used to say the same thing about pot, Heri. (Not with covid) I think if people take it and recover then that is all the scientific proof that you would need.

Hydroxychloroquine is a Trump Hoax !

I'm pretty sure that Trump was informed that is was working in Africa before he suggested it. I don't pay that much attention to the briefings, but I'm sure I get better info than what rachael is giving everyone.

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HU-885118952

Why do doctors keep pushing a malaria drug for their patients with LUPUS??

OMG!

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Link

President Trump has been a cheerleader for the drug hydroxychloroquine, pointing in a tweet and in person to a French study as evidence that one particular drug combination might be "one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine."

But now the medical society that published that French research has issued a statement saying the study "does not meet the Society's expected standard."

Dr. Kevin Tracey, president and CEO of the Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research in New York City, gave an even more pointed assessment of the French research.

"The study was a complete failure," he said.

"It was pathetic," addedArt Caplan, head of the division of medical ethics at the New York University School of Medicine.

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katrina_ellen

LOL, a link to CNN-the bearer of fake news.

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lurker111

president and CEO of the Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research in New York City

lol

But it's working. Who cares about the standards of some silly organization? Seriously, I'm convinced that the crats need this for "some reason". I haven't heard the crats offer anything to address this problem. To many pessimists. They seem to complain about anything that could help. TDS

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lurker111

Is CNN still around? I couldn't tell you.

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katrina_ellen

lurker, you know they are, their liberal funders don't want their water-bearers to die out.

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foodonastump

Since we’re continuing to hang on to anecdotes:

"We've been using it," said Dr. Hugh Cassiere, a pulmonologist and medical director of Respiratory Care Services at North Shore University Hospital in Long Island, New York,a hot spot for the pandemic in the United States. "But we really haven't seen any efficacy."

~~~~

In Louisiana, Dr. Josh Denson, a pulmonary medicine and critical care physician at the Tulane University Medical Center in New Orleans, said that "many patients do fine and tolerate it, but I don't think it's making a difference."

~~~~

"I can't honestly say that I think that it's necessarily an effective agent at this point," said Diaz, of the Providence Regional Medical Center in Washington state.

~~~~~~~~

Overall the article is saying we’ve not seen evidence of it helping once in a critical state. There is a possibility that it helps early on, but with a large percentage of patients recovering on their own anyway we could hopefully all agree that the only way to know is with proper studies.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/no-miraculous-recovery-some-icu-doctors-say-hydroxychloroquine-isn-t-n1177556#anchor-Newusefordecadesolddrug

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rob333 (zone 7a)

In a weird twist, the NIH is funding a study for the drug's use in COVID-19

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04332991


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heri_cles

Lurker claimed: I'm pretty sure that Trump was informed that is was working in Africa before he suggested it.

Lurke: Provide evidence that Chloronique worked against Covid -19 in Africa or admit that is just what you heard on Fox.

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adoptedbyhounds

Science wants data. It would be nice if clinical trials could be done overnight, but that’s not the way they are conducted. Clinical trial data on the effectiveness of the malaria drug for treating Covid19 is months, if not years away.


At this time we have doctors in the field using an approved drug for an unapproved use: treating Covid19 patients. We have anecdotal reports from doctors who have prescribed the drugs. That’s not the kind of data Dr. Fauci wants. He wants carefully designed studies that take into account an endless list of variables, and that produce data that is both reliable and valid.


I’m waiting for someone to tell me whose judgment they would substitute for that of the patient and doctor, in the absence of a drug approved for Covid19 treatment. Who wants to take the decision away from the doctor and patient?



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heri_cles

False hope is worse than no hope at all. It is like a mirage in a desert.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Doctors take an oath: First, Do No Harm. If they can truly answer that question while administering an unproven drug then I guess any adverse reaction to the drug is on their head and conscience. It doesn't get them off the hook.

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olliesmom

adverse reaction? Upset tummy, a rash...I guess Drs. could live with that.

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HU-5213567

I've been eating a lot of walnuts lately, and I don't have Covid-19. ¿¿coincidence??

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Ann

"Why do doctors keep pushing a malaria drug for their patients with LUPUS??

OMG! "

Excellent point, and Rheumatoid Arthritis.

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Ann

"Seriously, I'm convinced that the crats need this for "some reason". I haven't heard the crats offer anything to address this problem. To many pessimists. They seem to complain about anything that could help. TDS"

I notice the constant complaints about anything that could help too. Kind of weird - and like you said, absolutely no "offers" of ideas that could address the problem. But, plenty of pessimistic stuff like keeping the country closed until a vaccine comes out in 18 months, with Mika then tilting her head and sighing.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Why do doctors keep pushing a malaria drug for their patients with LUPUS??

OMG! "

Excellent point, and Rheumatoid Arthritis.

Because it is approved by the FDA for use with Lupus and Rheumatoid Arthritis patients.

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Ann

"Overall the article is saying we’ve not seen evidence of it helping once in a critical state."

I've heard docs interviewed saying the same thing. But those same docs are quite interested in its impact on those patients quite sick, but not yet at the critical/ICU stage. I think it would be fantastic if it is a drug effective at preventing the ICU stage, which is not a good stage to reach with this virus.

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Ann

"There is a possibility that it helps early on, but with a large percentage of patients recovering on their own anyway we could hopefully all agree that the only way to know is with proper studies."

Here is where the logic falls apart IMO. First the need is right now, not after extensive or time consuming "proper studies". Second, to jump to the conclusion that these patients would have recovered on their own anyway, without the drug is a dangerous (and IMO, potentially deadly) jump of logic. Many docs in many countries are using it because the do think it is helping. If I get the virus, I'll sure look for one of those docs!

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Nana H

It is every bit as wrong to jump to the conclusion that they would have recovered on their own as to assume they wouldn't have. That's the point ...we simply don't know.

Having said that , I trust most doctors in a hospital setting to make the best decision for their patients health. I cannot say that of those in general practice.

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shead

Because it is approved by the FDA for use with Lupus and Rheumatoid Arthritis patients.


But quinine (and its derivatives) weren't FDA approved when they began to be used for Lupus and RA. There was no FDA in 1834 ;)

According to the Lupus Foundation of America,

"The antimalarial quinine was first used to treat cutaneous lupus in 1834. Subsequent reports in 1928 and 1938 showed good results with another quinine-like drug in the treatment of both discoid and subacute cutaneous lupus. In 1941, discoid lupus patients were treated successfully with Atabrine, a compound developed in Germany in the 1920s. In the mid-1940s, both hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and chloroquine (CQ) had been synthesized. In 1955 HCQ was shown to be effective for both systemic lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. (Wallace DJ, Hahn BH, eds. Dubois’ Lupus Erythematosus. 1997:1117.)

In 1956, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved HCQ for symptoms of lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, particularly skin inflammation, hair loss, mouth sores, fatigue, and joint pain."

https://www.lupus.org/resources/drug-spotlight-on-hydroxychloroquine


In other words, quinine was being used before the Civil War for lupus but its derivatives were only approved in 1956, over 120 years later.

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Ann

"I cannot say that of those in general practice."

That's kind of weird IMO, but the U.S. has a very different medical system than Canada and I've never experienced the Canadian system, so I wouldn't know about general practice in Canada. I very much trust my general practice doc to make the best decisions for my health.

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palisades_

The U.S. government's National Institutes of Health launched an official clinical trial of the anti-malaria drug that President Trump has already touted as a possible "game changer" in the fight against the new coronavirus.

......

"Many U.S. hospitals are currently using hydroxychloroquine as first-line therapy for hospitalized patients with COVID-19 despite extremely limited clinical data supporting its effectiveness," said lead researcher for the trial, Dr. Wesley Self of Vanderbilt University Medical Center. "Thus, data on hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19 are urgently needed to inform clinical practice."

President Trump's assertive backing of the drug as a COVD-19 treatment before any clinical evidence was available to prove it safe and effective for that use put him at odds with his own senior medical experts.

"Preliminary reports suggest potential efficacy in small studies with patients," noted NHLBI Division of Lung Diseases director James P. Kiley in Thursday's announcement. "However, we really need clinical trial data to determine whether hydroxychloroquine is effective and safe in treating COVID-19."

Many hospitals are using it as their first choice of all drugs. Looking more like All aboard the Trump Train....now where is Margo’s meme.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-drug-clinical-trial-nih-donald-trump-covid-19-game-changer/


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Nana H

Ann, you may want to check the stats on over prescribing of prescription drugs in the US. The US consumes prescription drugs by orders of magnitude greater than other countries.

The over prescribing of oxycodone resulting in an opiod crisis is case in point. Drugs are advertised without constraint and doctors get kick backs on prescriptions.

Of course not all doctors do but over prescription is a huge issue.....suprised you don't know.

ETA This article is a bit dated but the numbers haven't changed much

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/americans-consume-almost-all-of-the-global-opioid-supply.html


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katrina_ellen

So don't use it if you get in that situation, I don't understand all the vitriol about a drug that could help and has helped people, if theres something else out there that has results - do tell. Its worked for many other applications of autoimmune inflammatory diseases and is still being prescribed after over 50 years. Do you have something better? Just because Trump said it may be beneficial according to the data they have, its being spun by the dems like Trump is demanding this drug be used - and if the truth would be told (lol) he only said that it appears to be something that has a possibility of treating symptoms with good results from the data they have now. Treatment is needed NOW - not after all data is collected. It has a good track record for safety when used under a doctors care-what is so darn terrible about that? Trump said it? I thought so.

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Ann

"Ann, you may want to check the stats on over prescribing of prescription drugs in the US. The US consumes prescription drugs by orders of magnitude greater than other countries.

The over prescribing of oxycodone resulting in an opiod crisis is case in point. Drugs are advertised without constraint and doctors get kick backs on prescriptions."

Does this have anything to do with me or my trust in my doc? I work with my doc very nicely and if I had coronavirus, I would hope if my virus situation got rough (but hospitalization wasn't required quite yet), my doc would be very willing to prescribe this drug combo. I would hope that might keep me out of the hospital!

I have no fear my doc will prescribe me too much pain medication and I also have absolutely no fear I will ever take much oxycodone! I'm absolutely certain my doc knows that about me.

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Ann

Katrina, exactly!!!!!!

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HU-885118952

Pfizer is investigating a drug used for arthritis and colitis, in the treatment of covid-19. God forbid Trump mentions it...


WHY DOES TURMP KEEP PUSHING AN ARTHRITIS DRUG, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

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heri_cles


"WHY DOES TURMP KEEP PUSHING AN ARTHRITIS DRUG,"

--------------

Easy on your phone keys cat man.

It is strange that trump is promoting any drug when he doesn't know what the heck he is talking about. Trump snake oil cure was debunked in several earlier threads so I am not sure why you are still "WHAAAAing" about it.


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shead

The only thing that is strange is why any of you give a d@mn if he mentions the drug or not and why it’s being discussed ad nauseum as being such a vile, wretched thing. If you’re not interested in the drug, by all means move on already.


I trust that my doctor is smart enough and capable enough to not prescribe me “snake oil” no matter who mentions it.

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Ziemia(6a)

Why isn't he giving equal time to other treatments - some of which are actually being used under real research conditions?

Double blind...

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Ann

What other treatment do you think is being used more than hydroxychloroquine? He's talked about Remdesivir, but I think that's given via IV (not sure) so not necessarily suitable for a patient still at home. He's also talked about plasma therapy. What drug did you have in mind, Ziemia?

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palisades_

Until something better comes along, currently the most attention is given to hydroxychloroquine because unlike anti-viral drug, like Remdesivir, which inhibits the virus from attacking healthy cells, hydroxychloroquine also does that in addition to reduce inflammation in the lungs so patients can stay off ventilator.

ETA: for Heri

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/23/21188167/coronavirus-treatment-clinical-trials-drugs-remdesivir-chloroquine-covid

The anti inflammatory effect of it is known from treatment for RA.

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cattyles

Shead, stop telling people what to discuss. There are other threads to participate in if you don’t like this subject. It is a hot topic and fair game.

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heri_cles

unlike anti-viral drug, like Remdesivir, which inhibits the virus from
attacking healthy cells, hydroxychloroquine also does that in addition
to reduce inflammation in the lungs so patients can stay off ventilator.

Please link to a scientific study that demonstrates that hydroX inhibits the virus from attacking healthy cells and reduces inflammation in the lungs.

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bleusblue2

shead

The only thing that is strange is why any of you give a d@mn if he mentions the drug or not and why it’s being discussed ad nauseum as being such a vile, wretched thing. If you’re not interested in the drug, by all means move on already.

~~~~

He's the President. He has influence far beyond what any of us say here. If it's better to ignore what he says then he should cede the floor to others. People here may or may not be interested in the drug, but his words have weight with many people and he should be called on careless suggestions to those followers. If he'd just mentioned the drug once it would have been noted and forgotten but he keeps at it.

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heri_cles

If he'd just mentioned the drug once it would have been noted and forgotten but he keeps at it.

....to the point where his promotion of this drug has gotten downright weird. So we have Foxed up Trumpers echoing his unsubstantiated claims about the alleged "very promising" drug and then calling foul if anyone demands scientific evidence over the word of an uninformed, power hungry , narcissistic blowhard.

OK.

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Nana H

Ann I trust my doctor too. However, that does not mean that all doctors act in the best interest of their patients but rather many act in their own best financial interest and in the interest of the Pharma companies that pander to them.

Over prescription of drugs in the States ,and in Canada to a lesser extent, is a serous problem so many doctors are not acting as your doctor and my doctor are acting.


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Tilly Teabag

Trump repeats lots of things because that way he can remember them.

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shead

"and then calling foul if anyone demands scientific evidence"


No one is calling foul that scientific evidence is being demanded. I want scientific evidence, too, but that takes TIME. Right now, some patients don't have time. They are out of time unless they try something that has some potential (however minuscule) to work as some anecdotal evidence suggests.

And to that point, all evidence, even evidence generated by clinical trials is anecdotal, each case in an of itself. It's only scientific when compared to the group as a whole and patterns and norms are established. As a whole, it becomes scientific.

That said, one cannot outright reject the anecdotal cases at this point. Quinine was used for 120 years for lupus and RA before its future derivatives were FDA approved in the 1950s. Quinine was used for 400 years for malarial treatment because of anecdotal evidence suggesting its positive effects.

*****************************************

"Please link to a scientific study that demonstrates that hydroX inhibits the virus from attacking healthy cells and reduces inflammation in the lungs."


How can there be a full study already completed that demonstrates hydroX inhibits [CV-19] virus from attacking healthy cells and reducing inflammation in the lungs when CV-19 is a novel virus only in existence since November?

There are other studies that demonstrate hydroX's effectiveness in reducing inflammation elsewhere in the body and having antiviral effects on other viruses. There are also studies that demonstrate that azithromycin can have antiviral effects on other viruses as well. The benefit of using both together, from my reading and understanding, is that BOTH can possibly have antiviral effects (tests on whether on CV-19 specifically have not been completed yet, but using deductive reasoning, they may have some potential to do so). However, azithromycin's effect on viruses may contribute to a cytokine storm, whereas hydroX's KNOWN effects on the body include reducing such storms (i.e., suppressing immunological responses----->inflammation).

*******************************************

"He's the President. He has influence far beyond what any of us say here. If it's better to ignore what he says then he should cede the floor to others. People here may or may not be interested in the drug, but his words have weight with many people and he should be called on careless suggestions to those followers. If he'd just mentioned the drug once it would have been noted and forgotten but he keeps at it."


Do you believe there are doctors out there prescribing this medication(s) to their patients based solely upon what the POTUS says in a press conference? Do you believe that doctors are that malleable as to ignore all good judgment and blindly follow the President's suggestion when treating their patients, of whom they took an oath to do no harm.

If so, the discussion shouldn't be about the President's comments but more focused on the hypocrisy and dangerous actions of these physician's all over the world being so easily swayed by the President of the United States' suggestion that they are spitting in the face of all they stand for when prescribing hydroX and z-packs for CV-19. Because the only logical explanation for it being prescribed is because Trump said so, right? If this is so, they should all lose their licenses.

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Ann

This oppose what Trump has said (no matter what it is) mandate reached the comical stage long ago. The hoops jumped through to justify that mandate in each individual scenario are funny to watch and read.

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queenmargo

Trump repeats lots of things because that way he can remember them.

Trump repeats lota of things because that way "others" can remember them.

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Nana H

"Do you believe there are doctors out there prescribing this
medication(s) to their patients based solely upon what the POTUS says in
a press conference? Do you believe that doctors are that malleable as
to ignore all good judgment and blindly follow the President's
suggestion when treating their patients, of whom they took an oath to do no harm."

What I do believe is that far too many doctors give their patients what they ask for. Interesting to me that just about ALL drug adverts are directed to the patient encouraging them to ask their doctor for drug XYZ. I really love the "be sure to tell your doctor if you have "name the disease or condition" . This tells me that for many people there is no specific doctor patient relationship.

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Tilly Teabag

Margo, you’re absolutely right.

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Cindy Outter

Last night CDC director Robert Redfield was on the CNN. An audience called in asking about the drug, he said the drug is not a proven cure, patients could work with their doctors if they want to use it. He did not display any enthusiasm toward the drug, at least not toward a drug that is being 'given most attention to".

"physician's all over the world being so easily swayed by the President of the United States' suggestion that they are spitting in the face of all they stand for when prescribing hydroX and z-packs for CV-19".

'Physicians all over the world prescribe this drug to COVID -19'. , you surely make it sounds like COVID-19 is the cure of COVID-19.

I believe they use z-pack to help with respiratory illness as my own doctor prescribed it for my bronchitis back in 2001. They may use hydroX as an experimental, it is also likely due to its low cost. I bet you could find evidences that doctors "All over the world" also prescribe other drug to go with z packs or other antibiotic medicine.

I wonder why Trumpsupporters are so zealous pushing this unproved drug to Americans. At least based on postings on the HT, many Trumpsupporters did not mention this drug before Tump peddles the drug. Now they are becoming kitchen table pharmacists regardless their limited knowledge to support the leader, regardless this drug is unproven, untested and dangerous to some applications.

No kidding, it is way being late, tell us where are the test kits YOUR PRESIDENT has been promising to Americans? where are the ventilators and PPEs that are desperately required? Why don't you Trumpsupporters spend your energy pushing YOUR PRESIDENT to do his job instead of being a drug salesman?

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shead

"What I do believe is that far too many doctors give their patients what they ask for. Interesting to me that just about ALL drug adverts are directed to the patient encouraging them to ask their doctor for drug XYZ. I really love the "be sure to tell your doctor if you have "name the disease or condition" . This tells me that for many people there is no specific doctor patient relationship."


So you think doctors just write scripts for meds for their patients on a whim? Even if the patient asks for (or about) a certain med, it is STILL the duty and care of the physician to ONLY prescribe meds that the patient actually needs or has a condition for and ONLY then IF the possible benefits of that drug outweighs the potential side effects. In the United States, people are far too eager to sue for malpractice these days for doctors to not have documentable evidence of a person's condition (lab tests, prior diagnoses in medical charts, etc.). Doctors still have the duty to do no harm.


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Nana H

" I wonder why Trump supporters are so zealous pushing this unproved drug to Americans, before Trump promoting this drug,"

Cindy, if it was Obama doing this they likely would have a totally different take. Trump must be defended at all costs for EVERYTHING he says and does. He is not to be questioned , challenged or criticized. To do so is seen as an attack and dear leader must be protected.

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Ziemia(6a)

Why isn't Trump talking about the other drugs that show signs of helping? There are several.

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Nana H

"So you think doctors just write scripts for meds for their patients on a
whim? Even if the patient asks for (or about) a certain med, it is
STILL the duty and care of the physician to ONLY prescribe meds that the
patient actually needs or has a condition for and ONLY then IF the
possible benefits of that drug outweighs the potential side effects."

I most certainly think that many doctors do. Not on a whim but because they are incentivized to prescribe certain drugs. As I have mentioned several times you only need to look ad the opioid crisis and the over prescribing of tranquilizers to know that.

Edited

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shead

@Ziemia,


From above, Ann asked you:

"What other treatment do you think is being used more than hydroxychloroquine? He's talked about Remdesivir, but I think that's given via IV (not sure) so not necessarily suitable for a patient still at home. He's also talked about plasma therapy. What drug did you have in mind, Ziemia?"

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Tilly Teabag

There are others coming out of Australia.

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ubro(2a)

I most certainly think that many doctors do. Not on a whim but because they are incentivized to prescribe certain drugs.

Absolutely they do, and I agree with Nana that the opioid crises is one such case. Doctors get can get freebies, they can even get monetary incentives from drug companies.


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shead

"ETA You may find yourself being criticized for starting a post with "so" .....then again likely not. It doesn't bother me but apparently it bothers others."

LOL. I tend to write on these forums as if I were having a face to face conversation ;) Thanks for mentioning it, though. I'll be sure to be on the lookout for other grammatical mistakes in both my posts and others from now on :/

In this case, what incentive do you think doctors would have to prescribe generic hydroX and a generic z-pack?


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palisades_

I wonder why Trumpsupporters are so zealous pushing this unproved drug to Americans.

I don’t see anyone here pushing it onto anyone. Links, references and discussions of its property and potential use for CV19 are helpful and informative. In the end it’s up to your doctors and you to decide.

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Cindy Outter

"So you think doctors just write scripts for meds for their patients on a whim? Even if the patient asks for (or about) a certain med, it is STILL the duty and care of the physician to ONLY prescribe meds that the patient actually needs or has a condition for and ONLY then IF the possible benefits of that drug outweighs the potential side effects...."

Those are common sense. From the years I worked at Mayo pharmacy carrying out none medical duties, I learned that responsible heath-care facilities cross check any prescription between patient's physicians and pharmacist.


Using an unproven drug does not mean the drug is a cure, it is more likely the patient is in bad shape, and, it does not mean doctors do not use other experimental drugs in similar patients' condition.

Bottom line, everything you said proves that you are promoting an unproven drug that YOUR PRESIDENT peddles.

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Ann

Cindy, what drug do you think docs are using more often for quite sick coronavirus patients?

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Cindy Outter

"I don’t see anyone here pushing it onto anyone."


If it is the case, throughout this thread, we never get the answer to the question "Why isn't Trump (and Trumsupporters - I add this) talking about the other drugs that show signs of helping? There are several".


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Nana H

shead, believe me it doesn't bother me one bit. I understand very well it reflective of a conversational tone and really is meant to be a question...I'm good.

I have no idea if there are any incentives being given to doctors relative to this drug and I didn't suggest there was. .

My observation was related to the comments suggesting that doctors are only going to do right by their patients. I believe that is mostly true when you have a regular primary care giver but I also know there is a serious problem with the over prescription / indiscriminate prescription of drugs.

IMO, this drug needs to be kept within the confines of doctors dealing with COVID patients in a controlled environment until more is known.

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shead

I'll repeat Ann's question again from above:

"What other treatment do you think is being used more than hydroxychloroquine? He's talked about Remdesivir, but I think that's given via IV (not sure) so not necessarily suitable for a patient still at home. He's also talked about plasma therapy. What drug did you have in mind, Ziemia?"


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shead

"IMO, this drug needs to be kept within the confines of doctors dealing with COVID patients in a controlled environment until more is known."


Isn't that what is happening right now, despite President Trump mentioning it? Just because he's mentioned it doesn't mean that it's not being "kept within the confines of doctors dealing with COVID patients in a controlled environment." Those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

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Kathy

Why does he keep saying we bought millions of doses? He is definitely supporting it being used. It must be the only thing he has made sure can be supplied to the heath system.

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Cindy Outter

"Cindy, what drug do you think docs are using more often for quite sick coronavirus patients?"

Ann, I am sorry, I do not have medical background, nor I am a snake oil sales person to answer your question.

You have to provide definition of "quite sick" first, you need to take survey that specifies criteria and condition from doctors, pharmacists, specialists all over the world to get a truth answer.

From the training and experience I received at the Mayo, I learned treating patient is an incredible serious business, understanding the effectiveness and consequences of a medicine takes years of researches and clinical trails, even the drug is repurposed for other cure...... It is not a subject like " how to bake a cake in the kitchen at home".

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shead

"Using an unproven drug does not mean the drug is a cure, it is more likely the patient is in bad shape, and, it does not mean doctors do not use other experimental drugs in similar patients' condition."

Is this not what we've been saying? No one on here has claimed the drug was a cure. Some anecdotal evidence suggests that it has worked to alleviate patients' symptoms. In others, it has not. The same is true for 99.9% of all medicines.


"Bottom line, everything you said proves that you are promoting an unproven drug that YOUR PRESIDENT peddles."

I'm only promoting the right to try it if the doctor and patient agree. I'm promoting the concept that the president mentioning the drug doesn't automatically disqualify it from consideration for treatment.


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shead

Ziemia, I wasn't intending to insult.


You said,

"Why isn't Trump talking about the other drugs that show signs of helping? There are several."

Ann said,

"What other treatment do you think is being used more than hydroxychloroquine? He's talked about Remdesivir, but I think that's given via IV (not sure) so not necessarily suitable for a patient still at home. He's also talked about plasma therapy......"


Therefore, the ball was back in your court. What other drugs are helping that he has not mentioned?

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Cindy Outter

"I'm only promoting the right to try it if the doctor and patient agree. I'm promoting the concept that the president mentioning the drug doesn't automatically disqualify it from consideration for treatment."


Again, throughout the tread, we know everyone agrees that. So why bother to repeat the common sense.


You still have not answered the question - why do you not talk about other drug?


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shead

"You still have not answered the question - why do you not talk about other drug?"

And which other drug(s) has he not discussed or mentioned? Ann has already established that "He's talked about Remdesivir, but I think that's given via IV (not sure) so not necessarily suitable for a patient still at home. He's also talked about plasma therapy......"


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heri_cles

I'm only promoting the right to try it if the doctor and patient agree.
I'm promoting the concept that the president mentioning the drug
doesn't automatically disqualify it from consideration for treatment.

Trump is promoting it as are some of his closest advisers like Peter Navarro who is as unqualified as Trump is.

That's just wrong... and it is weird.


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olliesmom

Some of you make it sound like President Trump just pulled it out of his butt that this drug has been helpful. He didn't just dream this up. He got info from other doctors and doctors from other countries.

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heri_cles

Trump "mentioned" it. LOL!

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heri_cles

Some of you make it sound like President Trump just pulled it out of his
butt that this drug has been helpful. He didn't just dream this up.
He got info from other doctors and doctors from other countries.


Read up on where he got it from. It was from a Dr. in France who relied on a small sample of anecdotes to reach an unsupported conclusion.

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Cindy Outter

"Some of you make it sound like President Trump just pulled it out of his butt that this drug has been helpful."

Isn't this his habit and style? You yourself could find thousands examples.

"He didn't just dream this up. He got info from other doctors and doctors from other countries."

Who are those doctors, and countries?

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heri_cles

If you know anything about scientific method or are a responsible leader,, you don't do what Trump has done.....create false hope and unintended complications and consequences.

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Nana H

"He didn't just dream this up. He got info from other doctors and doctors from other countries."

Olliesmom, that's fine. However, it might be best if left the promoting and/or cautioning about this drug to his own experts . They are selected by him to advise the country on these matters. He needs to stick to the role of government and let experts talk to the medical issues.

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olliesmom

So, ONLY a Dr. in France, huh? Okay LOL!!

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olliesmom

Nana, really. It is more than fine to offer hope, in that it has helped some. President Trump never said it was a cure-for-all. If we had left it to the scientists, they want perfect results that take TIME-some patients don't have TIME for perfect results. Scientists do not work in common sense mode, so they aren't going to say it is the cure, until it's is studied and studied and studied...which takes, you got it...TIME. Surely you understand that.

I'm sure there is something better coming out, but it's not available yet.

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adoptedbyhounds

I’m waiting for someone to tell me whose judgment they would substitute for that of the patient and doctor, in the absence of a drug approved for Covid19 treatment. Who wants to take the decision away from the doctor and patient?

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bleusblue2

"He's the President. He has influence far beyond what any of us say here. If it's better to ignore what he says then he should cede the floor to others. People here may or may not be interested in the drug, but his words have weight with many people and he should be called on careless suggestions to those followers. If he'd just mentioned the drug once it would have been noted and forgotten but he keeps at it."

Do you believe there are doctors out there prescribing this medication(s) to their patients based solely upon what the POTUS says in a press conference? Do you believe that doctors are that malleable as to ignore all good judgment and blindly follow the President's suggestion when treating their patients, of whom they took an oath to do no harm.

~~~

The conversation is about the president. If you want to say he has no influence at all on the demand for the drug, that would be great. In fact if he's just standing up there at the podium blathering away, let him at it. No influence on anybody? Double great. I am sure that doctors are not "blindly" following his "suggestions." That is not the conversation. It is about the President.

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Cindy Outter

"If we had left it to the scientists, they want perfect results that take TIME-some patients don't have TIME for perfect results. Scientists do not work in common sense mode,"

I am in Science and Engineering fields, this is one of the most bizarre opinons if not the most I have ever heard, especially for the subject of medicine and public health. Unbelievable.

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bleusblue2

queenmargo

Trump repeats lots of things because that way he can remember them.

Trump repeats lota of things because that way "others" can remember them.

~~~

repeat a lie often enough -- yes, he's a master

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cattyles

Retweeting QAnon. That should be grounds for the 25th.

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Cindy Outter

"I’m waiting for someone to tell me whose judgment they would substitute for that of the patient and doctor, in the absence of a drug approved for Covid19 treatment. Who wants to take the decision away from the doctor and patient?"

No one, you don't substitute any judgement other than official approval.

Patient and doctor using unproven drug is called clinical trail, that requires patient's signature to release any responsibility from the doctor even if there is evidence the patient is being killed by the drug.

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olliesmom

Cindy Outter, You are???? I had no idea.

That answers a lot of questions I had.

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bleusblue2

"He didn't just dream this up. He got info from other doctors and doctors from other countries."

Who are those doctors, and countries?

~~~

France and China: anecdotal reports, not proper studies. The study in France was small, less than 100 people. Control groups were not randomly selected. Patients were also taking other drugs at the same time -- in France, children were in the control group and people who self excluded, the doctors knew which patients were taking the drug. These were not reliable studies.

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Cindy Outter

olliesmom

"Cindy Outter, You are???? I had no idea."

Obviously.

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adoptedbyhounds

"No one, you don't substitute any judgement other than official approval."

Great! Just to be sure I understand, you have no problem leaving the decision to use an approved drug for an unapproved use to the doctor and patient. Is that correct?

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Ziemia(6a)

shead,

Agree, you throw out the generalizations less than others. You have lobbed accusations against and predictions about liberals. Liberals are a huge group and not unified except perhaps in their feelings about many of Trump's decisions. And, we do not all hold the same opinion on each of Trump's decisions.

For instance, how about pushing back against the notion that liberals are against the use of that cocktail being pushed by Trump? Certainly you know we're against Trump's pushing, not doctors prescribing.

PS edited

PPS: mentioning ≠ repeating & urging

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Ziemia(6a)

Stars - missed this --- where is this rap against scientists coming from? Someone else brought it up a day or two ago?

". If we had left it to the scientists, they want perfect results that take TIME-some patients don't have TIME for perfect results. Scientists do not work in common sense mode, "

This is so not true. They are already running double-blind studies in hospitals.

Scientists have been working around the clock on this for months - government, university, & private labs, and in hospitals.

There is no perfect in medical research.

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queenmargo

Margo, you’re absolutely right.

LOL- worth repeating ')

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Great! Just to be sure I understand, you have no problem leaving the decision to use an approved drug for an unapproved use to the doctor and patient. Is that correct?

Not one person here has a problem with that. Everyone knows a doctor can use an approved drug for an unapproved use. This is not in argument.

The problem is when the President becomes a drug pusher on TV, relating anecdotal stories that might get someone killed (actually he already did get someone killed - the fish tank guy). He's not a doctor and should NOT be making medical recommendations. He can comment on a drug saying it holds promise but he can't act like he has a financial stake in whether the drug gets used, which is what it appears like.

Close your eyes and drift back four years and imagine what you would think if Obama started pushing a drug for unapproved use at every freaking presser he did. Got it?

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Gizmo

Kamala Harris Labels Trump a ‘Drug-Pusher’ for Touting Hydroxychloroquine

~
“The president keeps taking the stage and as opposed to what Dr.
[Anthony] Fauci and medical health professionals are telling us, pushing
this drug,” Harris said on The View. “He’s got to stop — he’s not — we don’t want a drug pusher for president.”


Oh the shade thrown...LOL

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Cindy Outter

"you have no problem leaving the decision to use an approved drug for an unapproved use to the doctor and patient. Is that correct?"

Each drug needs to be approved as treatment for specific illnesses.

I am not a lawyer specialized in medical and health field, I could only answer based on my own opinion instead of what law says.

I thought law has provided direction of handle cases like this for Clinical Trail.

Yes, I do not have problem leaving the decision to use an approved drug for an unapproved use. Just like I have no problem if any one wants to use Drano, approved for cleaning drain clogs, to clean his/her own intestines. Especially if his/her doctors agree and sign off for the application, why should I care.

Nonetheless, this question and answer do not provide answers for the questions people have been asking:

" why does Trump promote this specific unapproved drug all over the media"?

" why do Trumpsupporters pushing this specific unapproved drug"?

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adoptedbyhounds

"Not one person here has a problem with that."

Cindy might. My original question:

I’m waiting for someone to tell me whose judgment they would substitute for that of the patient and doctor, in the absence of a drug approved for Covid19 treatment. Who wants to take the decision away from the doctor and patient?"

Cindy's response:

"No one, you don't substitute any judgement other than official approval."

I restated my question because I have no idea what Cindy means by "... you don't substitute any judgement other than official approval."

In the United States we have different layers of "official approval" for medical treatments, which can include, but are not limited to approval given by practicing physicians, often in consultation with their patients.

We also have academics empowered to give "official approval" via completion of clinical trials. Cindy didn't specify what kind of "official approval" she has in mind, and I'm not a mind reader.


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