Detroit Rep Says Hydroxychloroquine, Trump Helped Save Her Life

elvis

LANSING — A Democratic state representative from Detroit is crediting hydroxychloroquine — and Republican President Donald Trump who touted the drug — for saving her in her battle with the coronavirus.





State Rep. Karen Whitsett, who learned Monday she has tested positive for COVID-19, said she started taking hydroxychloroquine on March 31, prescribed by her doctor, after both she and her husband sought treatment for a range of symptoms on March 18. "It was less than two hours" before she started to feel relief, said Whitsett, who had experienced shortness of breath, swollen lymph nodes, and what felt like a sinus infection. She is still experiencing headaches, she said.


Whitsett said she was familiar with "the wonders" of hydroxychloroquine from an earlier bout with Lyme disease, but does not believe she would have thought to ask for it, or her doctor would have prescribed it, had Trump not been touting it as a possible treatment for COVID-19.


Trump, at his daily coronavirus briefings, has repeatedly touted the drug in combination with the antibiotic azithromycin, despite criticism from health professionals that it is unproven and potentially dangerous. There have also been complaints that Trump's remarks have resulted in a shortage of the drug for those people who normally use it for its recommended purposes. But Whitsett said Trump's comments helped in her case. "It has a lot to do with the president ... bringing it up," Whitsett said. "He is the only person who has the power to make it a priority."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/06/democrat-karen-whitsett-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-trump/2957897001/

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

In which way did it "save her life"? The article doesn't say that she was moribund.

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soupgirl53

Antidotal evidence is interesting but it should be noted that it is of little value from a medical standpoint. Having said this, I am glad Whitsett is feeling better.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Three points:

  1. We have no way of determining if those symptoms would have begun going away on their own if left to "nature" to take its course.
  2. Although the drug may have treated some of the symptoms, that does not necessarily mean she is "cured" of the virus itself.
  3. Many of the COVID cases have only a mild or moderate form of the virus. Perhaps the drug works on mild cases, but would have been ineffective on a severe case.


That is the problem with anecdotal cases. There is usually no way to validate them. In this case, several other possibilities might explain what happened, but without verifiable tests performed under stringent conditions, we will never know.

I do hope the Representative and her husband are doing well, however.

Kate

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Ann

I heard this story today and think it's so nice it helped her and so quickly.

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Kathy

She had taken it earlier for Lyme disease so she already had some background of it efficacy and safety.

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queenmargo

but does not believe she would have thought to ask for it, or her doctor would have prescribed it, had Trump not been touting it as a possible treatment for COVID-19.

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Kathy

Do we know if it caused a heart attack in anyone who was given the drug? What do we really know about it?

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Stan Areted

I happened to see her--inspiring story, and thanks to President Trump.

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shaxhome(Frog Rock, Australia 9b)

So if you're giving the moron in the WH credit for saving one life, you're also blaming him for the death of more than 10,000 now? Those are all on him, no-one else.

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Kathsgrdn

I've also read stories where it didn't help at all.

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elvis

shaxhome(Frog Rock, Australia 9b)

So if you're giving the moron in the WH credit for saving one life, you're also blaming him for the death of more than 10,000 now

Nope.

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shead

No, SHE gave him credit. The Democrat.

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elvis

I suppose Rep. Whitsett will be crucified by the left for being honest.

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deegw

It looks to me like Trump fans are exploiting her recovery and gratitude to get their "win". If y'all are so concerned about her, you should send her a card.

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deegw

Where is it in the article that she says "Trump helped save my life" or something similar? I don't see it.

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palisades_

That is good news. I read on cnn recently that a healthy young teacher died from it, but no mentioning of his treatment on the drug. For people with no health issues, especially no heart problem, a proper dose should be safe and gives low risks of adverse side effects

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soupgirl53

My sister has rheumatoid arthritis and has taken hydroxycloroquine. When she was on this drug, she had to see an opthalmologist every 6 months due an increased risk of glaucoma.

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palisades_

Risk like glaucoma increases with long term treatment. For short term 10-14 days on it in COVID-19 case, the risk is very low.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

“Trump himself has a small personal financial interest in Sanofi, the French drugmaker that makes Plaquenil, the brand-name version of hydroxychloroquine.”

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elvis

soupgirl53

My sister has rheumatoid arthritis and has taken hydroxycloroquine. When she was on this drug, she had to see an opthalmologist every 6 months due an increased risk of glaucoma.

Yes. When I hear that some people are worried about possible shortages because they take it regularly for lupus, I wonder about the eye and heart complications from long-term use.

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elvis

jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

“Trump himself has a small personal financial interest in Sanofi, the French drugmaker that makes Plaquenil, the brand-name version of hydroxychloroquine.”

"Interest"? How so, and source, please.

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elvis

deegw

Where is it in the article that she says "Trump helped save my life" or something similar? I don't see it.

Try this (video at the link):

"I really want to say that you have to give this an opportunity," she said. "For me, it saved my life. I only can go by what it is that I have gone through and what my story is, and I can't speak for anyone else. So that's not what I'm trying to do here. I'm only speaking for myself."

Whitsett said she went into home quarantine on March 12 -- the she day she last attended a session at the State House in Lansing -- and her health quickly deteriorated over the following week. "It took the longest [time] for me to actually be able to get an appointment and getting with my doctor, which was the 18th of March, and then actually getting the COVID test," she said, adding that at first, she thought she had only contracted a bout of pneumonia and was put on the popular anti-viral drug amoxicillin.

On March 31, Whitsett continued, she tested positive for coronavirus and her well-being "just plummeted". "It went from the headaches being severe to fluid building up in my lungs, to sweats breaking out to the cough and my breathing being labored," she said. "It all happened in a matter of hours."

When Whitsett did make it to the hospital, she found out about a state order prohibiting the use of hydroxychloroquine. The Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, under Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, had issued the order, only for the governor to retract it several days later.

"I did have a difficult time, even that day, obtaining the medication because of an order that was put down in my state," said Whitsett. "And it was on that day so you can imagine how terrified I was that I had to beg and plead and go through a whole lot to try to get the medication."

Whitsett says that she has chronic Lyme disease and had heard of hydroxychloroquine but would not have thought of it as a potential coronavirus treatment if not for Trump's briefings.

"If President Trump had not talked about this it wouldn't have been something that would be accessible for anyone to be able to get right now," she said, adding that within a few hours of taking her prescription, she was feeling much better.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/karen-whitsett-trump-hydroxychloroquine-saved-my-life


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palisades_

JG, if that is true I doubt he’ll make any money of it, as drug company profit margins are very low on brand name drugs when generics are available. Here in the States, many insurance companies don’t cover brand name drugs, and if they do, you pay a lot more than generics would cost.

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Annie Deighnaugh

The problem is, she doesn't know that that drug helped her at all...or if she would've gotten better without it. No one does. Not until we do some well designed and controlled studies.

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Cindy Outter

"but does not believe she would have thought to ask for it, or her doctor would have prescribed it, had Trump not been touting it as a possible treatment for COVID-19."

The statements sound like something from National Enquire.

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Cindy Outter

"if that is true I doubt he’ll make any money of it"


What? so it is OK for Trump to tout a drug to Americans that he only makes small profit of it?

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Ann

The Trump profit narrative is absurd and ridiculous. Dems are just beyond panicked to see more and more use of the drug by more and more docs who are noticing coronavirus benefit associated with the use of the drug. These are exactly the jams Dems back themselves into (every single time) with quick/immediate (and mandatory) criticism of anything Trump supports. Then, if whatever he supported goes well, they have no choice but to scramble in absurd and ridiculous fashion.

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palisades_

It’s natural for many of us to wonder if people in high profile act in way to promote their own interests over public welfare, and therefore prevent abuse of power and corruption. Given the info I’ve seen, I think he does not have financial interest in touting the use of the drug.

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elvis

A couple of comments I read these days make me wonder if I should buy stock in anti-psychotic drugs. Demand is bound to go up.

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heri_cles

Some people, especially those not familiar with the scientific method and statistical analysis cannot avoid extrapolating anecdotal evidence especially when they have been predisposed to believe it, as the Trumpers are.

This is what you get when you elect a reality tv personality with low intelligence, a big mouthed simpleton who constantly leverages situations, self-promotes, and brain washes. Trump is a snake oil salesman. Are you really still buying off that guy?

I don't see too many healthy young people dying from CV19

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heri_cles

Elvis remarked:

A couple of comments I read these days make me wonder if I should buy stock in anti-psychotic drugs. Demand is bound to go up.

----------

Comments on this thread ...or are you just sayin ' ?

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heri_cles

Trump has plenty of personal , political and financial interests that would be advanced with any silver bullet cure for the Covid -19 pandemic.

He isn't very smart and is buying into garbage that he hears.

Do your own research instead of repeating what you hear on Fox.....like Trump does.

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heri_cles

Oh Whitsett is in her 30's and in excellent health. She could have taken an aspirin and recovered.

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palisades_

Healthy youngsters in their 30’s died too. They’re still trying to figure out why

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/05/health/young-people-dying-coronavirus-sanjay-gupta/index.html

According to the article, he was given just Tylenol.

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Tilly Teabag

Looks like a pretty good sales job by Fox.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I agree, Tilly. And if you all aren't worried that your president is ignoring the advice of experts and relying heavily on the say so of fox talking heads, you should be.

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Annie Deighnaugh

As far as trump making money off of this drug? Wouldn't surprise me. But we don't know because he refuses to release his tax returns. Remember that one? Yeah there's that.

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lurker111

Isn't it funny how they eat their own, even when it comes to life saving medicines?

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soupgirl53

Elvis, you are correct that I worry about my sister being able to get the medicine she takes on a daily basis for pain and the long term effects those medicines have on the body. She is like a lot of people with rheumatoid arthritis, having to make a trade off. Freedom from pain which may come at the expense of a shorter life. Many of the medicines she hasctaken over the years contain steroids. But the good news is she better controlled with at the the medicines she is taking today than she was 10 years ago.

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ubro(2a)

She was young, she was not on a ventilator and at deaths door so her expectation of recovery was high.

It is the same thing as those who tout that a vitamin cured a cold, no way of knowing either way. We rely on scientific blind testing, not anecdotal evidence.

I hope she is right I hope this does work, but to passionately support a drug, without also having a proper tests is irresponsible, especially if you are a leader.

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mrskjun(9)

Watch Dr. Oz today and listen to some experts. None of which posts here.

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queenmargo

Watch Dr. Oz today and listen to some experts. None of which posts here.

What fun would that be mrs? they are not here for any discussion. Just Trump bashing.

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socks(10a)

Dr. Oz??? You are joking, right?

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deegw

It makes perfect sense. TV prez, TV doctor. At least Dr. Oz seems to mean well. Unfortunately, his advice is not reliable.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dr+oz+bad+advice&oq=dr+oz+bad+advice&aqs=chrome..69i57.4571j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

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ubro(2a)

Dr. Oz is a joke


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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

John Brinkley, the goat-gland quack. As medical procedures go, having severed goat's testicles implanted in one's body to boost a failing potency sounds like the rankest quackery - and it is. But for well over 20 years, as late as 1939, the goat-gland transplant was regarded as a breakthrough of the first importance. Link

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Blanche Dubois

So a woman not really very ill from coronavirus recovers from the coronavirus in the normal length of time that it takes to recover from the coronavirus if you're not very ill.

I'll jot that down.

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Tito Milian

deegw

10 hours ago

It looks to me like Trump fans are exploiting her recovery and gratitude to get their "win". If y'all are so concerned about her, you should send her a card.

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At least Trump fans are not exploiting the deaths of American like Hillary Clinton and like AOC to get her green new deal pushed through. Democrats are exploiting the suffering and dying of Americans to push their agenda. Thanking Trump for putting this medication in the forefront of the minds of Americans doctors and researchers is appropriate. Trying to politicize a deadly virus to gain power is demented.

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Tito Milian

ubro(2a)

17 minutes ago

Dr. Oz is a joke


And your medical degree is from? And you are board-certified in?

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Tito Milian

I see the MSDNC agitprop about trump somehow benefiting financially has seeped into the board here. Morning joke and his sister should not be taken seriously.

The Trump haters are not at all convinced that this medication made this woman better in two hours but they’re completely convinced without any evidence whatsoever that Trump is benefiting financially from her having taken the medication. Discuss.


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Tito Milian

What happened to “believe her”?

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Ann

"Isn't it funny how they eat their own, even when it comes to life saving medicines? "

It's truly is amazing and stunning how far and wide they have to go just to never, ever agree with anything Trump does or supports. The need/demand to disagree and dispute anything Trump (and so immediately) is like a mandate regardless of the later cost.

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Blanche Dubois

It takes over 8 hours for the drug to be viable in the system in women, so her comment about two hours shows it wasn't the drug. Thanks for the proof!


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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Glad she is better, but for a true test she would have to have a twin sister in the same condition to use as a control. If her twin also recovered then they both may have been on the road to recovery without any benefit of the drug. Both may be in the infected category but with less life threatening symptoms as is the case for most people who recover.

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Ann

"It takes over 8 hours for the drug to enter the system in women, so her comment about two hours shows it wasn't the drug."

This is an interesting comment (sincerely). Please provide a link as I'd like to read more about this - in regard to coronavirus (not the other conditions the drug is used to treat).

I don't take many drugs, but if I get a bad headache and take a Tylenol, I always notice a level of relief within 30 minutes. Or if I've had a dental or medical procedure and been prescribed pain medication, it kicks in even faster than 30 minutes.

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Annie Deighnaugh

The trump and his followers are turning this crisis into a litmus test of trump loyalty...and if you aren't loyal? Guess what, you don't get the PPE or ventilators that you need. Forget the fact that we're *all* Americans. trump just ordered another 3 mil masks from 3M to parse out to his loyalists, competing and outbidding the governors he set out on their own to find the stuff. Hah! I understand you need masks, but I'd like you to do me a favor though....


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Annie Deighnaugh


olliesmom

As proven in this thread, they want it NOT to work. Unbelievable.

So olliesmom, when Fauci says that it is an unproven regimen that has yet to be proven, you think he's hoping it doesn't work??? Really? And you think trump through instinct or whatever knows more about this than the experts around him and the research doctors who are racing to find a treatment and/or cure and vaccine?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Is it that you don't get the basics of a controlled clinical trial?

I have four patients with CV-19. Two I give the drug to, two I don't. One with the drug lives, one dies, one without the drug lives, one dies. What have I learned?

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Ann

"As proven in this thread, they want it NOT to work. Unbelievable."

It is unbelievable. Notice the reaction over the last 3+ years to a good stock market day, a good economic number, a change to the coronavirus models showing a potentially improved outcome, etc. Any single thing that could possibly go better or well for the country as a whole, while Trump is in office, is challenging news for the left to deal with. Positive news is either justified away (lol), ignored, credited to Obama, or disputed. If you start a thread about the positive news, one of those things will happen. Then, if the news turns (e.g., a big down day in the market a few days later or a coronavirus model reflecting a downward trend), they'll flood into that thread like swarming bees.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

There is also something called the placebo effect:

a beneficial effect produced by a placebo drug or treatment, which cannot be attributed to the properties of the placebo itself, and must therefore be due to the patient's belief in that treatment.

Without clinical trials on the drug, it's impossible to know what kind of effect the drug is having on people. Anecdotal evidence is not scientific.

One thing I am sure of though is that if people die from having taken hydroxychloroquine, the lawsuits will be very interesting.



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Ann

"Please do your own research. From reading here it's obvious that those supporting Trump reject links, facts, and research if it comes from the otherside. I chose not to waste my time supplying links that will be rejected non cogitas. It's not difficult to find the information on any search engine."

I figured I might get no response or this response. I did some research before I asked the question and certainly wasn't finding anything about your claim. I did see articles in how long before one might see improvement in Rheumatoid Arthritis (a couple months), but that information was certainly unrelated to what you were commenting about.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Positive news is either justified away (lol), ignored, credited to Obama, or disputed. If you start a thread about the positive news, one of those things will happen. Then, if the news turns (e.g., a big down day in the market a few days later or a coronavirus model reflecting a downward trend), they'll flood into that thread like swarming bees.

And remind me again of how many "negative for trump" threads you started? Oh right...I forgot. trump hasn't done *anything* negative, ever. Silly me. We are talking about that guy who has no reason to humble himself, even before God...

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palisades_

Ann, from what I recall in my pharmacology course years ago, bioavailability of this drug is anywhere from 2 to 4 hours after taken orally. So her experience of improving symptoms did fall in this time window. Where does “8 hours for women” come from?

ETA here is the link everyone can see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine

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catspa_zone9sunset14

OF COURSE everyone hopes it helps, but one anecdote of a miracle cure is not a lot on which to hang one's hopes. Below, from John Hopkins, is what is actually known, which is also not yet a lot on which to hang one's hopes. The rep's headaches, by the way, could be from a common side effect of the hydroxychloroquine. It has a really long half-life in the body of 40-50 days; is not readily broken down and eliminated.

Hydroxychloroquine has been used in a recent COVID-19 outbreak. Limited available data are largely based on in vitro studies and clinical series and one small RCT showing no effect.

  • In vitro activity against COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2), more potent than chloroquine[3].
  • In a small, observational, non-randomized study of (n=36) patients with SARS-CoV-2 infection, administration of hydroxychloroquine 200 mg q8h for 10 days (n=20) resulted in higher clearance of virus (70%) on day 6 compared to controls (12.5%). Six patients also received azithromycin, and authors argued in a post-hoc analysis that addition of azithromycin resulted in even higher, but statistically nonsignificant clearance[1]. This study, however, has many limitations including small sample size, exclusions from analysis of patients who were lost to follow-up (e.g. escalation of care, death), no clinical outcomes were reported or colation of viral clearance and clinical outcomes has been made.
  • A pilot RCT of 30 patients comparing HCQ v. placebo found that on day 7, COVID-19 nucleic acid of throat swabs was negative in 13 (86.7%) cases in the HCQ group and 14 (93.3%) cases in the control group (P>0.05). There was no significant clinical difference between the groups. The study suggests that if HCQ has an effect it is at most modest, so larger studies need to be performed.
  • Larger and properly designed studies are needed to determine the benefits of hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of COVID-19-positive patients and the role of combination therapy (e.g. with azithromycin).
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Annie Deighnaugh

Franky, on how long it takes to even enter the system, I don't think anyone knows as it's not clear if anyone at this point even has a clue on how or why or even if it might work.

What we do know is that, in order for an antiviral drug to work on the flu, it has to be taken within the first 48 hours of onset, and the effect is to shorten your sick time by about one day.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

The drug maker has to know how long it takes to reach its peak in the body. That doesn’t change depending on what disease is being treated.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/009768s037s045s047lbl.pdf

(I couldn’t find any info about females, this info sheet only lists males as far as I could see.)

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Ann

Thanks Palisades! Bioavailability is a word I was unaware of and very useful for search purposes. Reading the link you provided, this caught my eye based on "rapid absorption": "Due to rapid absorption, symptoms of overdose can occur within a half an hour after ingestion".

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palisades_

Franky, on how long it takes to even enter the system, I don't think anyone knows

Why beating your own drum? It had been studied and documented.

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Cindy Outter

"As proven in this thread, they want it NOT to work. Unbelievable."

I don't see anyone wants this drug NOT to work, I see people warn NOT to take the drug before it has been approved by clinical trail and required testing. Because it could kill.

I wonder the motivation behind Trumpsupporters' eagerness of promoting unproven drug onto Americans.

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Ann

I found this regarding absorption rate per tablet or dose:

"The mean fraction absorbed from the tablet was 0.79 (range 0.39 to 1.27). The mean absorption lag-time was 1.3 h (range 0.5 to 3.7 h)"

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Annie Deighnaugh

Yes your right palisades. I should've said to have an effect if any. I would think it would also matter how it is administered and in what dosage.

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ubro(2a)

I wonder the motivation behind Trumpsupporters' eagerness of promoting unproven drug onto Americans.

They want him to be seen as a hero, saviour of all. If he is right they can then justify those deaths that occurred before he touted this drug, you know, those that died because of his downplaying this whole pandemic.

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Ann

Then, from absorption lag-time (1.3 h - see comment above) back down to half maximum concentration is 3-4 hours.

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palisades_

Bioavailability is a word I was unaware of and very useful for search purposes

Indeed, a ‘code word’ we use to say the drug is now in the system (blood) and can be distributed anywhere in the body, except the brain.

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Blanche Dubois

Thank you for the proof of 4 hours for males. I appreciate it. Next up, Females. I'm sure you can find that too.


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

I’m as willing as anyone to do my own research but if a person makes a claim of fact it is really on them to prove the claim.

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palisades_

Thank you for the proof of 4 hours for males. I appreciate it.

Don’t thank me madame. That was for Ann. People need to get back ASAP to the Trump bashing program. C’est la vie on HT.

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tryingtounderstand

Hopefully this will work, in trump’s words “We will see”

In the meantime, caution please. “But health authorities are urging the public to be very careful about ingesting chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine without a doctor’s supervision, and at least one death has been linked to the drugs, which are approved to treat malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.

Worldwide clinical trials are planned or underway to see if the drugs, initially developed to combat malaria during the Second World War, could have any benefits in treating those with severe novel coronavirus infections.

In a statement published Sunday, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services said drugmakers had donated doses of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to a national stockpile.

It said the FDA had allowed them "to be distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible.


Dr. David Juurlink, a pharmacologist and internal medicine physician at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre in Toronto, says the buzz around the drugs is “dangerous.”

“We have very little evidence to show these drugs do anything of value for COVID-19 patients and we have no reason to believe they prevent infections,” he told CTVNews.ca on March 23”

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/u-s-approves-limited-use-of-chloroquine-in-covid-19-fight-but-caution-still-urged-1.4865048

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Cindy Outter

I would not do my own research, as I am not a trained professional in Pharmaceutical and medical field with deep and broad knowlege in the industry, and years working experience and proven track record.

It is why I depend on FDA, and professionals' inputs and decisions.

As of today, Hydroxychloroquine has not been approved for cure COVID-19, there is no way I would donate myself as guinea pig, especially based on the recommendation of the chronicle liar who has proved that everything he does is wrong in all levels.

This is a free country, Trumpsuppters, go ahead carrying out your own decisions, as long as you do not expect others to clean up the damage/mess you create.

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shead

They want him to be seen as a hero, saviour of all.

BS. The left is far more bent on proving him wrong than caring about whether this drug is a potential treatment or not. The left can't stand to think that something he suggests might actually be helpful. The right knows that more studies need to be done. No one has disputed that AT ALL.

This whole conversation is like beating a dead horse. The left would rather dead bodies from Covid-19 to keep piling up rather than the doctors and patients making the decision TOGETHER to try this treatment.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Are there any official statistics yet about how many patients died even after the use of hydroxychloroquine on them?

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Blanche Dubois

I still thank you Palisades. Because you favor trump, you showing it takes 4 hours in males to get into the system is believed by those who still favor him. If anyone else gave the same information it would be rejected.

Now we know that the woman wasn't cured by hydroxychloroquine. Thank you.

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barncatz

Money trail is getting clearer.

All told, Novartis paid Trump more than a million dollars during the year-long agreement, paid out through Cohen's dubious company. Novartis is one of the primary manufacturers of hydroxychloroquine. Two-plus-two equals "what do you have to lose?"

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/07/dr-trumps-medicine-show-why-is-he-pushing-an-unproven-drug-follow-the-money/

The president himself, according to Peter Baker, Katie Rogers, David Enrich, and Maggie Haberman has a financial interest in Sanofi, the French pharmaceutical company that manufactures the drug under the brand Plaquenil.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html

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katrina_ellen

My sister has RA, she takes a different drug, but when she is having a flare, she has used this drug for quick relief and does a weeks course, and my understanding is that to treat the virus they use a higher dosage. It gives fast relief.

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katrina_ellen

I can hardly handle the dems reactions to this whole crisis, and their desire for a bad outcome to the fight against this virus and the economy, so that they have a better chance of winning the 2020 election. Like a flock of buzzards.

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Stan Areted

Exactly, katrina__ellen.

Buzzards don't do work, they pick over and fight over the work and lives of others, just like in this crisis.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Agreeing with Dr Fauci = not agreeing with trump. That's all, no buzzards required.

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Ziemia(6a)

Trump supporters are simply ignoring all the cautions. Seems futile. Some are still saying "dems" are against the use of these drugs. And that "dems" want bad outcomes.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I'll ask again.

Are there any official statistics yet about how many patients died even after the use of hydroxychloroquine on them?

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palisades_


Blanche Dubois

I still thank you Palisades. Because you favor trump, you showing it takes 4 hours in males to get into the system is believed by those who still favor him. If anyone else gave the same information it would be rejected.

Now we know that the woman wasn't cured by hydroxychloroquine. Thank you.

Post like this makes it impossible to have a proper discussion. So many erroneous assumptions, and inability to share or just playing game (?) Btw, scientific data do not favor Trump, me ,you or anyone.

ETA : I kept forgetting I’m in HT forum sometimes. :{]


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Annie Deighnaugh

"What do you have to lose?"

A lot considering you might not get the disease at all, if you get the disease, it's most likely you will get well without drugs or hospitalization. But trump suggests taking it even if you're not sick...he said, "If you’re a doctor, a nurse, a first responder, a medical person going into hospitals, they say taking it before the fact is good..."

A day earlier, Mr. Trump said "If it were me — in fact, I might do it anyway. I may take it, okay? I may take it...And I'll have to ask my doctors about that, but I may take it."

So I have a lot to lose if I'm fine and then take a drug with the following potential side effects:

  • Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
  • blurred vision or other vision changes
  • chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
  • cough or hoarseness
  • dark urine
  • decreased urination
  • defective color vision
  • diarrhea
  • difficulty breathing
  • difficulty seeing at night
  • dizziness or fainting
  • fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
  • feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
  • feeling that others can hear your thoughts
  • feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
  • fever with or without chills
  • general feeling of tiredness or weakness
  • headache
  • inability to move the eyes
  • increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
  • joint or muscle pain
  • large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
  • loss of hearing
  • lower back or side pain
  • noisy breathing
  • painful or difficult urination
  • red irritated eyes
  • red skin lesions, often with a purple center
  • severe mood or mental changes
  • sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
  • sticking out of the tongue
  • stomach pain
  • swelling of the feet or lower legs
  • swollen or painful glands
  • trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
  • uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
  • unusual behavior
  • unusual bleeding or bruising
  • unusual facial expressions
  • unusual tiredness or weakness
  • yellow eyes or skin
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Ziemia(6a)

A pilot RCT of 30 patients comparing HCQ v. placebo found that on day 7, COVID-19 nucleic acid of throat swabs was negative in 13 (86.7%) cases in the HCQ group and 14 (93.3%) cases in the control group (P>0.05). There was no significant clinical difference between the groups. The study suggests that if HCQ has an effect it is at most modest, so larger studies need to be performed.

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Ziemia(6a)

So, HCQ recipients had the same outcome as those who didn't get it.

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ubro(2a)

"If you’re a doctor, a nurse, a first responder, a medical person going into hospitals, they say taking it before the fact is good..."

A day earlier, Mr. Trump said "If it were me — in fact, I might do it anyway. I may take it, okay? I may take it...And I'll have to ask my doctors about that, but I may take it."

That is highly irresponsible talk. Who is this 'they' he keeps talking about?

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I just want to go on record here. I don't think anyone should take this drug for prophylactic reasons.

There is an experimental combination, this drug and another, that may or may not help relieve symptoms. No one knows because it hasn't been studied properly and approved. If someone is on death's door, then I do not think it wrong to try to use the drug combo, if for no other reason than it would help the research. However, there has to be sign off with the patient or his next of kin. And there has to be a central clearing house for information about the size of the dose and whether it helped or harmed.

It should not be touted as a miracle drug because it may not be a miracle and it may kill more people than it helps. Until we know more, the experiment continues.


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Kathy

Trump sounds as if he is touting it as a preventative.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

He is and that is just plain wrong. That's why he said he would take it.

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elvis

Until we know more, the experiment continues.

Yes, and that's a good thing, under medical supervision.

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Ann

Blanche, looks like 1.3 hours, not 4. Where is the 4 coming from? If this is what led you to your later 4 hour comments, I think you need to read again: "back down to half maximum concentration is 3-4 hours". That's the point where the concentration is reduced to half following the previous dose that "peaked" (so the speak), when highest dosage absorption was at 1.3 hours - then becoming only half that concentration at the 3-4 hour point. If you have a different understanding, please show us what has led you to that conclusion. I'm happy to be corrected, if you have info that disputes this.

This has generated quite a conversation and it certainly would be a sensible time for you to produce your links, if you're disagreeing with those who have looked up info.

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Ann

Actually, that would seem much like how something like a pain medication works. One might be getting maximum pain relief 1 hour after taking it, but less relief 3 hours later, when it is nearly time for another dose. Also, rapid absorption was associated with the drug, resulting in potential side effects in as little as 30 minutes. I think that makes it pretty clear how rapidly it is absorbed, doesn't it?

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foodonastump


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palisades_

"It takes over 8 hours for the drug to enter the system in women, so her comment about two hours shows it wasn't the drug."


Has been changed into:


“It takes over 8 hours for the drug to be viable in the system in women, so her comment about two hours shows it wasn't the drug.”


Still, both statements do not make any sense. Please stop posting misleading data and pseudo science for this drug.



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elvis

But Trump.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Antidotal evidence is interesting but it should be noted that it is of little value from a medical standpoint."

Something brought about the change. Data from clinical trials will be available in the future. What, other than "anecdotal evidence of little value," are doctors around the world relying upon to inform their decision to prescribe these drugs?

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Ziemia(6a)

"Please stop posting misleading data and pseudo science for this drug."

Agree - now let's get the president on board with you on this.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

But Trump.

Exactly. It is irresponsible for Trump to tout this drug the way he has, though it is worth investigating it and settling the matter of its efficacy one way or another. A more measured and thoughtful president would have quietly set wheels in motion for those scientific investigations to be set up, instead of acting like a circus barker/snake oil salesman and creating a spectacle and division, not to mention possibly misplaced hope. Clearly, as evidenced by this discussion on HT, for one example, people on both sides are more interested in scoring hits than in serious consideration of the drug itself and how one would go about verifying how well it works and the cost/benefit (healthwise, not moneywise).

Rep. Karen Whitsett's random personal experience and opinion is just that and indicative of nothing. Chum, at best.

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lurker111

Exactly. It is irresponsible for Trump to tout this drug the way he has...

instead of acting like a circus barker/snake oil salesman and creating a spectacle and division...

people on both sides are more interested in scoring hits than in serious consideration of the drug itself...

Good example. I only see it from one side...The left.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Well, no, lurker, Trumpsters seem to be looking high and low to validate what Trump says about the drug, which at this point can only be considered hype/wishful thinking. Smarter to wait until there is valid data to go on, one way or the other.

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Ann

Blanche: "It takes over 8 hours for the drug to be viable in the system in women, so her comment about two hours shows it wasn't the drug. Thanks for the proof!"

Now, I want to know why a drug would take longer to be "viable" in the system of a woman. In general, women are smaller than men, like children are typically smaller than both. If a child can be prescribed an adult drug (like Tylenol or aspirin) the dosage is typically less based on a doctor's suggestion and their smaller body mass. So, with the possible exception of some type of hormone interaction (and the different hormones in men and women), why would it take twice a long for it to be "viable" in the system of a woman.

I'm beginning to think the entire comment was complete BS but, again, I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.

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lurker111

I had an idea so I looked it up. This probably plays a role.

Finally, a woman's digestive organs empty themselves more slowly than a man's. This can increase the chances of nausea, bloating, gallstones and constipation.

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Ann

Lurker, do you think that would make it take longer to be "viable" in the system or simply keep it in the body for a longer time?

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Now, I want to know why a drug would take longer to be "viable" in the system of a woman.

Oh, Ann. It is well-known that drug dynamics vary greatly based on gender, which can be a major problem when drug trials are conducted with a bias toward one gender, or medicines prescribed without gender differences taken into account. Here is just one review-type article on the topic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3644551/

Not "BS", at all.

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elvis

soupgirl53

Antidotal evidence is interesting but it should be noted that it is of little value from a medical standpoint.

Actually, "antidotal" evidence is just what we need, sg ;D

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elvis

...the drug, which at this point can only be considered hype/wishful thinking

Hopeful and wishful, but only because it has provided relief in some cases. Don't you wish for hcq to be helpful?

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palisades_

Every MD knows for the existing indications, this drug doses do not based on genders, but can be dosed by weights to avoid build up of drug toxicity.

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palisades_

I just want to go on record here. I don't think anyone should take this drug for prophylactic reasons.

There is a reason to do just that, for the frontline workers IF the outcomes of these clinical trials justify it

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/with-gowns-and-masks-in-short-supply-researchers-test-drugs-to-prevent-covid-19-infections-in-health-care-workers-2020-04-03?mod=home-page

Personally, I prefer an anti-viral regimen over this drug, so am hoping to see other better drugs down the pipes later this years.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Don't you wish for hcq to be helpful?

And have you stopped beating your dog, Elvis? How do you know it has "provided relief in some cases" when there is no valid study showing that, yet?

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patriciae_gw(07)

What do wishes have to do with this drug? I am not getting the fervor for this stuff. Either it has medicinal use or it does not and maybe it will be helpful to some and not others or anything else but my wishes one way or the other should have no bearing on anyone taking this medication. When the public gets all worked up over some treatment (remember laetrile ?) it isn't going to go well. Science will see this through.

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palisades_

Trump says about the drug, which at this point can only be considered hype/wishful thinking

It’s neither hype nor wishful thinking. Doctors in China and France have used it to treat their people and realized its potential to slow down the virus pandemic, and called for more investigational trials of the drug. So here we are seeing clinical trials going. The President was trying to spread hope and calm, albeit he was not doing it as well as he hoped. But the good doctors are around him to keep things in perspective.

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heri_cles

Doctors in China and France have used it to treat
their people and realized its potential to slow down the virus pandemic

Not true.

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elvis

^^^Which part is untrue, specifically?

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Cindy Outter

- "The President is trying to spread hope and calm, albeit he is not doing it as well as he hoped."

To spread hope and calm, Your President should go back to start the work that he has never been doing - running this country instead of ruining it.

This is getting so tired to ask those questions - Where are the test kits?, where are the badly needed ICUs and Hospital Beds? Where are the ventilators? Where are the facial masks? Where are the PPEs that our health care worker desperately needed? Where are the doctors and nurses to offer help to these overworked, extremely tired ones?

Instead, he is selling snake oil, focusing on his TV rating. He has been picking fights with foreign countries, suppliers and producers. He takes no responsibilities, and pushes everything to States and Locals. He spends Federal funding to complete with States for PPE contracts and bid the prices sky rocketing. He accuses those heroic healthcare workers for stealing the marks that they themselves need to protect their own and their families lives.

"But the good doctors are around him to keep things in perspective.",...Speaking about wishful thinking.

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palisades_

“"But the good doctors are around him to keep things in perspective.",...this is called wishful thinking.”

So you don’t think Drs Fauci and Birx are doing a fine job?

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palisades_

Heri, if there is no potential or very low chance of evidence, a clinical trial would not commence. Read the link I just posted above.

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mrsstem(9a)

Again, hydroxychloroquine is a generic. Can’t make the POTUS rich.

Unlike Uranium One...for someone else...


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Kathy

Some Swedish hospitals have stopped using hydroxychloroquine due to serious side effects.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200407/side-effects-halt-use-of-chloroquine-vs-covid-19

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Ann

"Oh, Ann. It is well-known that drug dynamics vary greatly based on gender, which can be a major problem when drug trials are conducted with a bias toward one gender, or medicines prescribed without gender differences taken into account. Here is just one review-type article on the topic:"

Catspa, thanks for that link. I actually found it very interesting. At the bottom of the article, there is a list of drugs where "absorption" is different based on sex. The drug under discussion is not in the list. I see Blanche is no longer participating in this discussion (I find that unsurprising because I'm guessing her comment about this drug has no basis whatsoever and is BS). Does anyone have any links indicating that hydroxychloroquine would be absorbed more slowly in women than men (and would take 8 hours to be "viable" in a woman's system)? Anyone at all?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“Again, hydroxychloroquine is a generic. Can’t make the POTUS rich.”

Why not? If there was no money in generics they wouldn’t exist.

However, by some (most? all?) indications POTUS isn’t doing so hot financially. Every little bit helps!

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Kathy

Mylan and Tevan are both going to start to manufacture the drug.

https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2020/03/19/teva-mylan-coronavirus-covid19-malaria/

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palisades_

Does anyone have any links indicating that hydroxychloroquine would be absorbed more slowly in women than men (and would take 8 hours to be "viable" in a woman's system)? Anyone at all?

There is NO such thing Ann. Genders do not make a difference in absorption or bioavailability of this drug. Don’t waste more of your energy on that.

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mrsstem(9a)

Mylan has been manufacturing it for some time. They stopped because they weren’t making money on a generic. Try to keep up Kathy.

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have been around for decades and are available as generics, so Mylan isn't likely to make very much selling generic hydroxychloroquine. Bayer (OTC:BAYRY) is donating3 million tablets of chloroquine to the U.S. government for potential use as a treatment for COVID-19.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/2020/03/19/mylan-ramping-up-production-of-hydroxychloroquine.aspx

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Kathy

As a result, Mylan plans to restart production of hydroxychloroquine tablets at a West Virginia facility to meet “potential” increased demand and is looking to begin manufacturing outside the U.S. in coming weeks, according to a statement. In explaining its decision, the company noted the World Health Organization listed the drug as being under investigation for combating the coronavirus.

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Ann

"Mylan and Tevan are both going to start to manufacture the drug."

Great news! There is more and more worldwide demand for it now that many docs are choosing to use it for coronavirus.

Tonight, on Tucker's show, there was a segment with Dr. Siegel (a somewhat regular medical guest on Fox News). His 90 something father was really struggling with coronavirus, couldn't get up from seated and thinking his life was soon to be over. He was given the drug and felt fine the next day. On the same show, the Dem representative who is in the news in recent days was interviewed along with her doc. That doc feels there is a very important "sweet spot" for the drug. He thinks it is working very well for fairly seriously ill patients, not quite yet requiring hospitalization or hospitalized and not yet requiring ICU. He says, with that group, the results have been very good.

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Ann

Palisades, I think you are right. I doubt anyone here will be able to provide a single link about absorption of this drug based on gender.

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Kathy

Ann did you read my post where some hospitals in Sweden are finding severe side effects? I really think jumping the gun might be dangerous until more evidence is in.

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palisades_

And there is no such drug company name Tevan. It’s TEVA.

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elvis

I really think jumping the gun might be dangerous until more evidence is in.

"Jumping the gun"? I doubt Ann was thinking about popping a handful of hcq, Kathy.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

At the bottom of the article, there is a list of drugs where "absorption" is different based on sex. The drug under discussion is not in the list.

Well, I did take your question as a general one, Ann: "Now, I want to know why a drug would take longer to be "viable" in the system of a woman," so I provided an article that listed the myriad reasons why drugs often work differently in women. Here's another one, by the way, that I think is more readable and has more details: https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/gender-differences-in-pharmacokinetics. These are reviews, so not likely to cover every last instance, let alone be specific to hydroxychloroquine.

However, given how many factors are in play for gender differences in drug responses, I wouldn't be too surprised if they were gender differences for this drug, too, though I will leave searching for such studies, if they exist, to you. There is a good possibility that specific topic hasn't been addressed yet -- you would be surprised at the gaping gaps in research and our knowledge in general -- not enough time, money, or scientists and, as always, there has to be someone interested, otherwise no hope it will ever get looked at.

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Ann

Not unless I get coronavirus Elvis. If I do, I'll be calling my doc immediately to see if I can and should be taking it, and I would very much hope the answer would be yes.

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palisades_

Catspa, Ann,

Even though for this drug there is no difference in genders in term of absorption and bioavailability (narrow time window 2-4 hrs), this drug, like many other drugs, does have variations in metabolism and clearance between men and women, which is shown in wiki source in the range 32-50 days for Elimination/Half Life. The men values are typically closer around 32 days and the women’s on farther end. As you can see, this drug is eliminated slowly (by the liver), so care must be taken to avoid build up of toxicity which can cause many other health problems, especially the heart and liver.

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cattyles

Rings a bell.

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