neat, tidy bush form:

“ Say it ain’t so, Joe” comes to mind - from what I have read. I don’t have one.

Rifis,

Thanks. Your comments are often very cerebral and cryptic for me to grasp at my level of comprehension! Gotta' stop and figure out what you mean, many times. This time is one of them. Do you mean, "Move on to other rose choices, because what you previously experienced with Dark Desire will be repeated."?

Moses

My experience is the same as yours, Moses. I keep it because its habit is hidden, it blooms a lot with fragrance most of the time and fits well into the colour scheme without shouting and grows quickly without taking up much space. I don't mind white streaks. I'm looking to put it elsewhere, but haven't yet found a replacement. Hopefully 2nd year Bordeaux will show its stuff this year and DD can be moved to a less noticeable area for cutting.

6b-7a NJ)

Moses:

Sorry about that.

I had remembered Michael Garhart’s second HMF comment from back when I had researched DD. Below are both of his comments. Followed by a zinger from (HMF) Phillip ATX, though one which offers hope for a older DD.

Yes and no. Some of the photos have kind of wonky plants. Reminds me of the plants of 'Shreveport' a lot. And so do the blooms and general habits. If it's at Washington Park any time soon, I'll be sure to see if any stems are lying on the ground after rain. Probably not an issue out of OR/WA or the UK.

So I finally got to see this rose at Washington Park in full bloom. My original analysis was right. The plant is super awkward. Irregular shape and linear. I disliked the plant a lot.

Mine has only been in the ground a couple years at this point, and I concede that some of the grievances pertaining to the strangely splayed architecture of the young plant are born out with mine, but this seems the case with several of my Kordes roses, and they tend to grow out of the teenage awkwardness as the plant matures.

Phillip did also mention DD was one of his top cultivars, despite the splaying.

I had assumed, quite possibly incorrectly, that the adult DD’s untamed nature was an established fact. Your hope that it could grow out of its incorrigibility reminded me of the story I learned ages ago. Shoeless Joe Jackson on the courthouse steps. The little boy, tears streaming down his face, pleading “ tell me it ain’t so, Joe”.

I also gave mine the shovel and wonder if I was being hasty to remove it

But I truly disliked the shape. the thorns and the blossom at the top of the cane.

I have seen some beautiful examples of Dark Desire but I didn't have one of them.

Kristine,

My DD reminded me of our Savannahs...so much plant relative to the bloom. I wasn’t growing it for the leaves and thorns, he got the shovel.

If you take a look at the reviews of this rose at Kordes website, though in German, most of the complaints are related to the bush form and growth habit. However, I did decide to purchase two own roots just to observe them in my garden.

Been happy with any leaves! Since mine dies back in a colder zone 6 winter it gets to grow gaulke again all over again so it never outgrows that awkward phase.

Mine was more like a short climber and not very cane hardy. I liked the dark blooms in bud form but didn’t care for anything else about it and so I remove it.

Some people here do seem to grow it magnificently though. I think it might be Sarah Ann.

Mine never reached maturity, dying it's first winter. I bought it as a good size, grafted 3 gal. The growth was just as others have said. Plus, I made the mistake of planting it in my Austin bed. Those relaxed, rounded shrubs accentuated DD's stiff, awkward form. He might have looked more at home in a bed of hybrid teas.

My D.D. was purchased from Palatine and was on Multiflora rootstock. I had no complaints about the growth habit until it ceased to grow and began to die. In fact, all but one of the roses grafted to Multiflora that I purchased seemed to perform well, initially, then out of the blue started a death spiral (Ascot was the exception). Dr. Huey was always the recommended rootstock for Las Vegas, even to the point that some bluntly said stay away from Multiflora. Of course, I had t try it for myself. I wonder if rootstock is making a difference in regards to the described growth habit (shape)?

In that garden, D.D. was near Oklahoma. Comparatively, I preferred Oklahoma. Today, I would likely try D.D. on multiflora, again, because of its reported disease resistance. I must admit, it is toward the bottom of my list... I do not know why : >/ ...

Vaporvac, thank you! I don’t know if I grow it magnificently, but it does do quite well here. I have two of them, both own root from Chamblees. One is still in a pot, and looks really good right now. 2017 was their first season, and the one I planted in the ground, in the beginning had canes that were all spread out, and I didn’t care for that feature, but the canes are now upright and for the most part it has typical Hybrid Tea growth. In the beginning the blooms had a few of the white splotches, but even then it wasn’t that bad. Rarely, I might see a bloom with a white splotch, but it’s usually not that noticeable. I do dislike the thorns on this rose, its worst feature! I would say that Beverly, Liebeszauber and my newest PJPII are my most prolific Hybrid Tea roses, it doesn’t bloom as much as they do, but it does produce quite a few blooms. I’m not recommending DD, just stating my experiences with it. I’m pretty sure this is an honest assessment, because I have plenty of roses that have been difficult to grow and perform as well as I would like, but DD hasn't been one of those!

Moses try Gypsy Soul as an alternate - it’s a good red on a nice round shrub. Mine was own root from Chamblees.

Do you think it would help to put a tomato cage around it the first year or two? Just a thought.

flowers, you hit hit the nail on the head! When I bought it (grafted on Dr. Huey), I knew nothing about HT shape and only went by the size. I guess I really wanted something low so as not to hide the balustrades. In one sense he's a good rose to shoe-horn in somewhere one wants to have reliable bloom showing behind another rose or plant. In that case, any BS is hidden. Eglantyne has a similarly tall BSy habit, but is much fuller and being reliably cane hardy I generally bend her longest canes towards the balustrade giving me even more blooms. Why can't things be perfect first go-around?

I hesitate to say anything about my experience with DD because I've not grown many Hybrid Teas, so I don't have much to compare it too. I've certainly not grown the HT's that I've ever had very well :)

That being said, I hesitantly purchased 3 DD from Palantine three years ago to put in the red section of my formal rose garden. I was looking for a tall, upright shaped bush to fit in between all the bushy flowing OGR's I have in that bed, and I was looking for wonderful cut flowers, something I normally don't care about. Also, I needed a red that would go with the purply-reds of the OGR's.

Boy, have I been happy with DD. Straight out of the gate, it performed beautifully! All three bushes got to 5-6 feet in their first season and bloomed in flushes all season long. The bush shape for me has been tall and upright. One of the bushes did have one huge cane that bent over from the sheer weight of the flower trusses.

In my garden, it is very healthy, very robust, very floriferous. But again, I've not grown Oklahoma or any of the other red HT's.

This isn't the greatest pic if the bush, but it does show the really healthy foliage. This pic was taken July 28th. In this picture it's about 4 feet tall ( I prune mine to 18 inches every spring). By October it will be 5-6 feet.

Here is a close up of the flower....very few white streaks:

One of my favourite things about this rose is the beautiful long stems! This wasn't a real arrangement, I just put them in this vase quickly and took a picture. These stems are 18 inches at least. Also, the fragrance is wonderful!

Rosylady, please send me some of your zone 8. I promise to use it well.

You say you are relatively new at this, but I think you are a born rosarian.

I knew quite a few people grew her well. Wowza! Daniela, maybe your Bordeaux will improve in scent. Because mine is extremely fragrant and I think it is known to be.

It was one of the ugliest plants in my garden - second only to Princess Alexandra of Kent. Please notice I'm using the past tense. The plant grew in a broad shaped V with long super thorny fat canes bearing dis-proportionally small blooms that often burned and refused to open. It was hard to work around, always grabbing your shirt sleeves. There are better roses to be had.

WOW Vapor really? If Bordeaux became fragrant here it would just be superb. Scent is the only thing missing on this rose to be perfect and I just assumed "you cant have it all". Thank you for letting me know yours is fragrant I will keep an eye(nose) on mine and hope for the best.

Rosylady and Dianela, you both have such beautiful roses! Vaporvac, I just got Bordeaux from Palatine, mostly from the good things you and others have said about it. I do hope mine will be fragrant. I love the beautiful red color of yours, Dianela!

I don't know if it's because it's humid here or that I have a good sense of smell, but most of my roses are scented. I even catch a heavy wafting clove scent from Pink Pet. However, I'm not the only one who catches it, but most consider it unscented! Bordeaux definitely has a lovely scent; perhaps it's another that has more fragrance at particular times of the day such as Dark Desire.

I grow Dark Desire. My only complaint is the thorns. My DD is one of my oldest plants. I bought it from Chamblees own roots. And it actually does quite well in my nematode infested ground. In fact, when it goes off patton I want to try and root it and try it as a root stock.

My Dark Desire every once in awhile will put out a rose with a white streak, but not as much as when it was a young plant.

My DD grows straight up putting Jack's Magic bean stalk to shame... it grows VERY tall. but not wide. Nor does it grow at weird angles..... however, by accident I found if you pull a cane over it will actually put out laterals and you will get a lot more roses..... I wish I would have know that when I originally planted him because I would have put in him in a different place. Right now it is hard to make him grow with laterals because, he then crowds my other roses..... and with his thorns, I then can't maneuver around the other bushes without getting ATTACKED. He does have a nice fragrance. Granted I am in a different zone, but if you have room I would say to give him another try.

flowersaremusic....thank you for your very kind comment....it brought tears to my eyes. My whole life I've wanted to grow really beautiful roses. It's because of the forums that I finally learned how!

dianela....your rose garden is just beautiful! I love it when you post pictures!

Rosylady thank you for such nice comment. specially because I feel like my garden is very messy compared to your garden. Your neat and balanced garden is very inspirational to me. Your roses look amazing and your sense of design and organization is spectacular. I love your entire layout and your beautiful home matches perfectly around that garden. Looking forward to seeing more of it this year.

Sara thank you for your kind compliment. You are growing magnificent roses in your garden and I have been keeping an eye on several of them, specially Beverly. I wish I could grow hybrid teas how you and BenT seem to be able to do it, but not much luck around here with those yet.

Vapor this is OT but thanks to you I added Peggy Martin to my garden and ohhhh boy that girl is vigorous and tough as nails. I have one growing in 2 hours of sunlight (it will get more once it reaches The top of the structure around it). It even has buds lol =) thank You for so many wonderful suggestions and advice.

Thank you all for your informative responses. I've decided to forego Dark Desire for now. Essentially, the apparent room it would need if it grew well is too big for my 8' x 18' garden. Conversely, if it performed for me as it did back a few years ago it would be shovel pruned again. Either way, I lose.

Moses

I have an own-root DD that will now be on its third year. Same with Madam Anisette. If they don't wow me this year, they'll be gone. Both have really taken their time growing, and neither has bloomed a lot. Maybe they need more heat. Cori Ann got a lot more heat than me and had great success with hers. I'm coastal CA with May Gray and June Gloom.