Covid19 first discovered November 17?

adoptedbyhounds

If Covid19 was discovered in China on November 17, it was probably in the US much earlier than we thought. We began testing in March.


The author reminds us that Knowing when the virus began and what we think occurred in January and February (and perhaps even December) will help determine not only how severe this virus is, but how far along we are into the epidemic. If we really had hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of cases, along with several thousand more fatalities prior to testing, that would mean that the mortality rate is even lower than the 1.2% post-testing average so far.

I found this an interesting article, and hope others here will as well.


https://www.conservativereview.com/news/horowitz-coronavirus-begin-us-matters/

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Toby

What value do you place on speculation from someone who is not an epidemiologist? This virus presents itself differently than influenza, and prior deaths are up to the medical profession to analyze.

Unfortunately, Trump will listen to some two-bit conservative journalist like Horowitz rather than the experts. Don't let yourself be as unfortunate as Trump.

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Iris GW

If anyone thinks that such an article absolves Trump of mistakes that he and his Administration made earlier in knowing about this -- you're wrong. If anything, it continues to point to failures in intelligence gathering (and intelligence application).

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Ziemia(6a)

The article ignores what is happening within NY hospitals (one example) - which is telling us it's much worse than the flu, etc.

Logic has a role in science - but his logic doesn't reflect the science.

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queenmargo

I just read it adopted, thanks.

I too believe this virus has been here for a lot longer.

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Ziemia(6a)

"The report, in the South China Morning Post, said Chinese authorities had identified at least 266 people who contracted the virus last year and who came under medical surveillance, and the earliest case was 17 November – weeks before authorities announced the emergence of the new virus.

The data obtained by the Post, which the Guardian has not been able to verify, said a 55-year-old from Hubei province could have been the first person to contract Covid-19. For about one month after that date there were one to five new cases reported each day, the report said, and by 20 December there were 60 confirmed cases.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report

Article mentioned in the OP article.

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patriceny

I'm pretty sure it went through my office in February. I'm in NY.

5 of us got wicked sick in succession - fever, sore throat, felt horrible. Everyone tested negative for strep and the flu. We were all sick for a week or two, one woman with asthma ended up hospitalized due to breathing problems.

I'm hoping that is true, because if so I already had it and survived. :-/

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Toby

That it started in November in China is not in dispute right now. Horowitz is trying to make the argument that the virus is not so bad and we should all go back to work.

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Kathy

Thanks ABH. Interesting. So when do you think Trump heard about this possibility? Much sooner than he admits? If not, why?

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queenmargo

I would not believe anything coming out of China on this. I believe they covered this up for quite a long time.

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blfenton

I'm pretty sure I couldn't have had it (no travel) but mid January I had all the symptoms, headache, slight fever, dry cough (no cold symptoms though) upset tummy (you don't need the details) and shortness of breath, which I never ever ever have. I put it down to the flu. But who knows

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Toby

The Chinese were writing peer review articles about the first 41 patients who were hospitalized around the first of the year and The Lancet was publishing it by the third week in January. The Chinese had identified it as a novel coronavirus so we've known or should have known for three months. Trump declared a national emergency two weeks ago. What was he doing in the meantime?

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adoptedbyhounds

"What value do you place on speculation from someone who is not an epidemiologist?"

I value information.

From this non-epidemiologist, I learned Covid19 stretches back to at least November 17. I wasn't aware of that.

Were you?

That new information sparked my interest, so I continued reading. I'm confident there are others on this forum who have concerns about public policy, and will find the author's thoughts on a possible extended shut down interesting.

EDITED to add: Thanks to all of you who shared that you experienced "something" that in retrospect might possibly have been Covid19. I hope (now that you're all over it) that you're all immune to the beast.

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maifleur03

I was but that is only because I followed an article in Lancet. Someone posted on here in February an article about the virus timeline and deep in the article was a link to the South China News where it announced that there was one person that had it. I found it interesting that it was even mentioned. In the 1930's some of the first information concerning the death camps were released in a similar manner so I suspected the news article was a warning to other countries to expect a problem with it.

As I think I have posted elsewhere people in my area were having similar symptoms as far back as 2018.

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roxsol

I'm pretty sure I couldn't have had it (no travel) but mid January I had all the symptoms, headache, slight fever, dry cough (no cold symptoms though) upset tummy (you don't need the details) and shortness of breath, which I never ever ever have. I put it down to the flu. But who knows

blfenton, Canada was testing for Covid-19 in January. BC had its first documented case in January.

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lurker111

You should have your blood tested. It could be very useful.

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shead

Several pediatricians have written articles stating they believe they saw pediatric cases in December. I, too, believe it was here much earlier than thought. I know several people who were sick in December that had very similar symptoms but tested negative for everything. Three patients in our local nursing home suddenly became ill and faded quickly in January within a week of each other. It’s been here. I’m just hoping we’ve already had it.

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chisue

We will need tests to determine who has become immune to *the present version* of Covid-19.

PROVIDED the virus doesn't mutate...some people could safely re-enter the community. They would also have to be proven no longer capable of infecting others.

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adoptedbyhounds

"You should have your blood tested. It could be very useful."

What an interesting thought!!! We know that in Seattle Dr. Helen Chu got tired of waiting for the bureaucracy, and started testing swabs taken for suspected flu for Covid19...and found it. The feds told her not to do it, but she did it anyway.

https://mynorthwest.com/1758762/coronavirus-washington-seattle-flu-study/?

Here are some of her twitter comments.

https://twitter.com/helenchumd?lang=en

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petalique

Thank you, ABH. I have been looking for that link as well as this one from which it was derived.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report

I think this might be the same link which Ziemia posted up thread.

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petalique

This is from my saved notes of 1-3-2020. Apparently it was in the Apple news feed of 1-3-20. Because we’re in a national emergency and pandemic, and because I’m not sure the links are clearly included, I am providing my entire saved note here for discussion purposes.

.-.-.-


China pneumonia outbreak: Mystery virus probed in Wuhan
Some 44 people have been infected in the central city of Wuhan, officials say.

Read in BBC News: https://apple.news/A2bIhtcAcTtm7ND41dcMD0w


Shared from Apple News

China pneumonia outbreak: Mystery virus probed in Wuhan

Chinese authorities have launched an investigation into a mysterious viral pneumonia which has infected dozens of people in the central city of Wuhan.

A total of 44 cases have been confirmed so far, 11 of which are considered "severe", officials said on Friday.

The outbreak has prompted Singapore and Hong Kong to bring in screening processes for travellers from the city.

It comes amid online fears the virus could be linked to Sars, or severe acute respiratory syndrome.

The potentially deadly, flu-like Sars virus killed more than 700 people around the world in 2002-03, after originating in China.

There has been speculation on social media about a possible connection to the highly contagious disease.

Wuhan police said eight people had been punished for "publishing or forwarding false information on the internet without verification".

The people who risked their lives to stop the virus

The Wuhan health commission said on Friday it was investigating the cauhse of the outbreak.

In a statement on its website, it said it had already ruled out a number of infection sources - including influenza, avian influenza and common respiratory diseases - but did not mention Sars.

There has also been no human-to-human transmission, the statement added. However, a number of those infected worked at a seafood market in the city, leading authorities to clean the area.

A spokesman for the World Health Organization (WHO) said it was aware of the outbreak and was in contact with the Chinese government.

"There are many potential causes of viral pneumonia, many of which are more common than severe acute respiratory syndrome coronovirus," the spokesman added. "WHO is closely monitoring this event and will share more details as we have them. "

Fears sparked by an older epidemic

Analysis by BBC Health's Philippa Roxby

This latest outbreak appears to have sparked memories for those who dealt with a Sars epidemic 18 years ago.

At the time, the WHO criticised China for under-reporting the number of cases of Sars in a southern Chinese province.

In the 2002-03 epidemic, the virus affected more than 8,000 people in 26 countries, killing 349 people in mainland China and 299 in Hong Kong.

Travellers flying to other countries are thought to have been behind the large number of cases in that outbreak because Sars spreads quickly without swift treatment in hospital.

China sacked its health minister at the time for the poor handling of the crisis.

The country has been free of Sars since May 2004.

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bry911

It is incredibly unlikely that Novel Coronavirus was floating around for any significant time in the U.S. unknown. Viruses don't work that way. I could go into the science behind mutation and virus tracking, but it is a lot of work and I suspect many will simply choose to ignore it.

There was a non-flu respiratory infection that went around in late last year and earlier this year. That was not the virus that causes COVID-19. We know how viruses mutate and so we can trace the strains pretty well and we do so all over the world very publicly. You can see strain tracking yourself at https://nextstrain.org/ncov?animate=2019-11-24,2020-03-24,0,0,30000&p=grid

The long and short of it is...It is not absolutely impossible but it is astronomically unlikely that a Novel Coronavirus had widespread existence with no genomic trace, and I mean get struck by lightning twice while holding the winning lottery ticket type of unlikely.

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petalique

Both China and the US knew about this new “pneumonia” outbreak in November 2019. Russia probably knew around then as well.

Yes, as with SARS, the Chinese were not forthcoming and attempted to cover it up for at least a month.

A Chinese doctor (Li), (an ophthalmologist, IIRC) noticed this new disease and began to share his observations and to warn colleagues. China was still trying to keep this under wraps. Police seized Dr. Li and he was forced to sign a statement that he was lying and making up a story.

Dr. Li himself (had) contracted the new pneumonia causing disease, was hospitalized, but succumbed to what was a novel coronavirus (now formally called SARS-COV-2.

The Chinese government, after at least a month of trying to cover up this new outbreak, realized about a month or so later that it was not going to work (body count and perhaps leaks). Meanwhile, international travel was going on, in and out of Wuhan (a huge city). Businessmen, students, tourists, all variety of people and trade going to and from Wuhan.


ed typos

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Toby

From this non-epidemiologist, I learned Covid19 stretches back to at least November 17. I wasn't aware of that.

Were you?

Yes. The Chinese report was published in The Lancet on January 24 but I read it a week or so ago. They had cases of pneumonia by the end of December so it stands to reason that Patient One contracted the virus in November and was possibly only asymptomatic or mildly ill and recovered. Some of those people who he spread it to, however, developed pneumonia, presenting at the hospital in December.

Is it your intent to discuss the origins of COVID-19 or is it to discuss Horowitz's belief that because the virus may have been in the U.S. longer than we think, it's now safe to go back to work? The "Why it matters" part of the title is why he wrote the article. He's supporting Trump's plan to get back to work in two weeks.

Horowitz: WHEN did coronavirus begin in the US? And why it matters.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30154-9/fulltext

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Kathy

Petalique, I tend to agree with you. It goes deeper than we know.

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HU-885118952

EDITED to add: Thanks to all of you who shared that you experienced
"something" that in retrospect might possibly have been Covid19. I hope
(now that you're all over it) that you're all immune to the beast.

Reading online, there is a cohort of people who think they had it in Nov./Dec. and a cohort of people who believe they might have had it in Dec./Jan.

I really hope we can start testing these people to see if their unidentified illness (at the time) was covid-19.

There was a beast of a virus going around and there are many people out there who can attest to the symptoms described now.

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Kathy

I also don’t think we can say when it will be safe to return to work as a general statement. It may be certain industries in certain areas can return with monitoring and safe procedures.

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petalique

The US has intelligence operations — while they have been smeared and many fired or not replaced, there are still eyes nd ear on the ground. These people also have connections, as you might imagine.

There is also the free independent press — not silenced yet.

Dedicated people, fortunately.

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petalique

Chernobyl II

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HU-885118952

There is also the free independent press — not silenced yet.

Yet, ironically, taking active measures to silence Trump and his team in order to prevent information from flowing to their American viewing public.

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HU-885118952

Chernobyl II

Funny how the Trump haters can invoke geography yet Trump cannot.


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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If Covid-19 has been in the US since November, why the recent explosion of cases across the country, and the disastrous and tragic situation in New York?

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patriciae_gw(07)

The first known case in the US was a man from Washington state Jan 21st who had just returned from China however a subsequent patient who tested positive with no China travel connection had a version that had been around for at least six weeks making it obvious that the virus had to have been circulating here longer than previously known. Still the arc of a disease is a connection thing with the number of patients multiplying at an expected rate. That is where the opinion of an epidemiologist comes in handy. They know stuff about how these things spread (that being their specialty) that we don't know. As in the man who had a version that was of a specific age because of the known rate of mutation in a virus, they can give you an informed opinion about how quickly it is spreading. They appear to be on board with the idea that we are still in the rapid spread stage. Stay home.

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adoptedbyhounds

"If Covid-19 has been in the US since November, why the recent explosion of cases across the country, and the disastrous and tragic situation in New York?"

Nancy, the author notes that we ramped up testing in March, when private labs were finally permitted to participate. As we all know, the CDC's original testing was very limited, with restrictions on who could be tested based upon where one had traveled, as well as on what symptoms were present.

What looks like an "explosion" of cases is showing us cases that we can now say with certainty were caused by Covid19.

FTA: You see an insanely dangerous trajectory of cases taking off in March. But what exactly happened in March? The virus was introduced in Wuhan in November. And even without testing, we did detect a handful of cases here, the first known case being on January 21. So why would we suddenly experience the outbreak in March? It’s quite evident that the culprit for the spike in the chart is simply because that is when the testing began because Trump dropped the FDA regulation barring private testing after the government testing didn’t work.

FTA: Given the overlap with the general flu and pneumonia season, we really have no way of knowing that the January 21 case of the individual flying from Wuhan to Spokane, Washington, was the first active case – patient zero.

FTA: It’s truly inconceivable that it would take so long for the virus to come here after it broke out in China in November. We likely had hundreds of thousands of travelers coming here and countless tens of thousands of Chinese nationals flying back even before Customs and Border Protection introduced any health care screening per CDC guidance on January 17. There are roughly 3.4 million Chinese admissions every year, not counting the numerous Americans who fly there and back. If we divide that by six to account for a two-month period before Trump shut off travel but after the virus had developed in Wuhan, that would be nearly 600,000 Chinese nationals.


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Ziemia(6a)

I'm no longer certain what the point of this thread is.

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graywings123(7)

Me too, Ziemia

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

we ramped up testing in March

Doesn't matter when the testing began, or if it had never begun -- Covid-19 sends many victims to the hospital and ICUs and that wasn't happening until recently.


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elvis

petalique

Chernobyl II

Yes, that's apt. China's Chernobyl.

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texanjana(8)

A friend who is an ER doc in a major city in Texas says they think now that they saw their first cases in November.

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jlhug

patriceny, I had a similar "disease". Horrible sore throat, dry cough, high fever in February. I also tested negative for strep and flu. We got off a cruise ship on February 2. I got sick on February 23 so right at the 21 days. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I had covid-19.

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adoptedbyhounds

"A friend who is an ER doc in a major city in Texas says they think now that they saw their first cases in November."

Texanjana, Thanks for mentioning this. Did your friend say what made them rethink when their first case presented itself?

"Doesn't matter when the testing began, or if it had never begun -- Covid-19 sends many victims to the hospital and ICUs and that wasn't happening until recently."

I disagree, Nancy. The CDC estimates there have been at least 390,000 hospitalizations due to the flu during this flu season. So something has been happening. People have been going to the hospital with flu and flu like illnesses all along. With an estimated 38 million people in the US having had the flu, we shouldn't be surprised.

What's new is that when Covid19 sends someone to the hospital now, the virus can be identified and documented. Hence the apparent "explosion."

We do not know how many people thought to have the flu might have had Covid19. It would be helpful if we did.


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Ziemia(6a)

ABH: would you please summarize the point of this thread?

Is it to collect a list of possible cases of covid-19 before late January?

(This isn't info new - just not picked by common media sources very often & there have been reports of deaths in January and earlier that may have been misattributed to flu.)

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Ziemia(6a)

The explosion is real. The vast increase in the number of Americans on ventilators is very real. And very much not typical of previous years.

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Toby

See that? Maybe the virus started in Texas in October. All those Halloween parties.

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petalique

Restating my points (in this thread):

The first incident of the new coronavirus was in Wuhan, China sometime in November 2019 (read my post up thread)

China spent about a month attempting to cover up the outbreak of this new, SARS like viral pneumonia. During that denial time, when the Chinese should have immediately contacted the WORLD Health Organization (WHO), business as usual was allowed to carry on. No travel restrictions in or our of the huge city of Wuhan. Who knows where students, tourists, business people might have carried the virus, if any did. It was not the huge outbreak that it later became. After about a month or so, China took a different approach and admitted that they had an outbreak of a new type of infectious pneumonia.

China attempted to quarantine those with symptoms or fevers at home. After a while China realized that by making ill people remain at home, the patients’ families were becoming infected — spreading the disease. They then acted very smart, sometimes perhaps ruthless, quickly built a huge hospital (or more) in record breaking time. Patients were placed here. I’m not sure how they got test kits, but as in So Korea, later, people under suspicion of having the new virus, or those showing symptoms were then quarantined in these hospital units, NOT at home with uninfected family members. China, being a totalitarian state, quickly and firmly bit the bullet and did what they felt needed to be done to damp down the run away contagious and lag time outbreaks. It made a huge difference.

I don’t believe that there is any evidence that the novel coronavirus was in the US until the Washington State patients (Ziemia’s thread, I believe). There are anecdotes of people who feel they must have had the new virus, even prior to November 2019. No evidence, only anecdotes. People can have their recollections influenced by later events or perhaps some people had another sort of virus, flu or cold. Heck, Heidi Klum got tested because she was worried. I have an acquaintance that wondered it she had it a few weeks ago. Of course, she doesn’t. But we cannot blame people from being anxious. I have a dry cough and fatigue. Had it for a while now. I am absolutely confident I do not have COVID-19. If I was a nervous, completely uninformed type of person, living in a population dense area, with friends who’d been on one of those horrid cruise ships, maybe I could talk myself into calling my doctor. (Or, maybe I could put on a dust mask and vacuum the 3 inches of dust surrounding my bed.)

The US intelligence knew of the outbreak in China in November 2019. Donald Trump could have know (if he had wanted to be involved, informed and not barked at those staff members or intelligence officials (the few remaining that he spoke with). Any other president, that was a mature, forward thinking adult, committed to the United States of America, would not have signaled to his staff that he was only to hear flattering and “good” news. History readers will know that Hitler did this; he refused to hear truthful news about the Russian front and other matters. Officers who were bold or foolish enough to communicate the truth of the casualties, starvation, death of troops from exposure, weren’t around the next week. That’s one of the big problems with having a narcissistic or deranged psychopath for a leader.

China gave the US a fat month to know a global pandemic was likely brewing. Donald Trump had a good fat two months to listen to intelligence and to prepare in many ways. He lied, denied, play golf, and squandered that opportunity. OUR opportunity. He was never a good student, never listened well, never played chess or was one to plan and strategized. He likes to have what he wants to have. He wanted to stock market to remain looking bright. He didn’t want anything to adversely impact his chances for reelection. He is sharp like a snake, but not endowed with the ability to strategized carefully, or the wisdom to surround himself with skilled people and listen carefully to them.

He has bragged more than once that he is his own genius expert and only keeps his own counsel and is smarter than all the generals. Unfortunately he is surrounded by inept toadying sycophants. Has numerous media outlets willing to help him spin lies, hate, and blame. And, sadly, flanked by a segment of the population that has its own agenda and needs — to feel that they have a “leader” who will take care of them, do all the worrying. Or who are not the most mentally sound and intellectually robust or inclined to turn a page that not about sports (ie think, read, evaluate).

The US has lost enormously. We are still losing, in many areas because of unmotivated, easily swayed naive or otherwise messed up or inattentive citizenry.

Things are very bad and things are going to get a whole lot worse.

excuse typos

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The explosion is real. The vast increase in the number of Americans on ventilators is very real. And very much not typical of previous years.

Worth repeating.

Where were the ER patients desperately needing ventilators in November - January?

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Toby

The first Chinese patients with pneumonia appeared at the end of December. How do we know that China knew it was a novel coronavirus previous to that? If we knew by early or mid January, can a two-week delay be considered a cover-up? How did we find out? I missed the story of the Chinese doctor whistleblower. Is that where the cover-up story comes from?

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adoptedbyhounds

"The explosion is real. The vast increase in the number of Americans on ventilators is very real. And very much not typical of previous years."

Interesting, Nancy. Could you share the numbers you have about people on ventilators? Thanks.

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katrina_ellen

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/coronavirus-aggressive-l-type-strain-affecting-70-per-cent-of-cases/

I don't hear much about the two strains, apparently the ancestral virus strain was less aggressive and caused people to be asymptomatic for weeks as we are seeing now. But the mutated strain is the more aggressive strain that hit Wuhan. Wonder if we have 2 types here, and maybe explains why some are extremely sick and others are asymptomatic. It will be interesting to see the data that comes out of this.

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lurker111

I've heard that 12% need to be hospitalized. I don't know how many of those need ventilators. I was wondering the same thing.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e2.htm

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bry911

I understand the attraction of believing the virus was here early, but you have to remember there are 11 million people in Wuhan and there were only 500 reported cases of the virus prior to its development here.

If you are right please explain these...



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Ziemia(6a)

ABH: funny, but Nancy was quoting me.

Don't know the numbers, but I do trust the doctors describing their work in the areas currently hit hard by it. Like all the 15 beds in ICU being Covid-19 patients in respiratory distress. And some of those in the ER (same hospital) bring "vented" - waiting for a room.

Ask the WH - wouldn't it be the federal government who is keeping on top of the current usage - we have outbreaks in Louisiana & Massachusetts & Tennessee besides NY and Washington state.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Don't know the numbers, but I do trust the doctors describing their work in the areas currently hit hard by it."

Same here. No reason to doubt them.

How do we know that China knew it was a novel coronavirus previous to that?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report

"Where were the ER patients desperately needing ventilators in November - January?"

Were there any?

Let me know if you find out where the government tallies the number of people on ventilators.

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Toby

Thank you for the link, abh. Following a link in that article, we find that December 30 is the first time that doctors knew that patients were ill with a novel coronavirus.

On 30 December, after seeing several patients with flu-like symptoms
and resistant to usual treatment methods, Ai received the lab results of
one case, which contained the word: “Sars coronavirus.” Ai, reading the
report several times, says she broke out into a cold sweat.

She circled the words Sars, took a photo and sent it to a former
medical school classmate, now a doctor at another hospital in Wuhan. By
that evening, the photo had spread throughout medical circles in Wuhan,
where it was also shared by Li Wenliang, becoming the first piece of
evidence of the outbreak.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/11/coronavirus-wuhan-doctor-ai-fen-speaks-out-against-authorities

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adoptedbyhounds

You are welcome, Toby. I like following links too.

In yours, a doctor speaks about her own experience which occurred in late December. I believe her account. From your link, we learn the Chinese don’t like it when their citizens speak out.

I hope she is OK. We can hope that the free press around the world takes an interest in her safety.

The article I posted came along a couple days later, and we are told it relies on information from Chinese records. I have no reason to believe either report is false. Scientists will eventually be able to figure out when the virus first appeared.

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maifleur03

Late last night I was reading a story which although it is being discounted that the virus was in this country in 2018/2019 there have been enough reports of similar symptoms that once a blood test is available people who thought they had it back then should be tested. Not certain if that would either prove or disprove anything unless blood samples were still available from that time frame.

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patriciae_gw(07)

In my experience no one gets colds. They all get flu, let me update. No one gets flu, they all get Covid-19.

When you read lists of symptoms for colds, flu and Covid they share possibilities. No one gets the same exact symptoms which is why a person has to be tested to know for sure. Not having strep or flu could mean you have a cold. Oh no you say this was way worse than a cold. Only in imagination is flu way worse than a cold. flu can be mild to severe and colds can be mild to severe. Covid can be mild to severe.

Interesting point about mild, moderate and severe. It seems that Chinese people are tougher than Americans. Their standards for no symptoms are more like our mild and so on. We send people with moderate symptoms home but we would likely hospitalize the Chinese person with "moderate symptoms" because on our scale they would be severe.

The Chinese doctor Li Wenliang who exposed the disease to the public died of it. He was 51.

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Toby

I was struck by the similarities of how China responded to the virus and how Trump responded. Ai said that the Chinese government tried to hide the report because they feared that it would cause panic if the public knew another SARS virus had appeared.

That night Ai said she received a message from her hospital saying
information about this mysterious disease should not be arbitrarily
released in order to avoid causing panic. Two days later, she told the
magazine, she was summoned by the head of the hospital’s disciplinary
inspection committee and reprimanded for “spreading rumours” and
“harming stability”.

Trump tried to downplay the virus throughout February and half of March, calling it the flu and saying he had it under control, because he was afraid it would crash the stock market and the economy and harm his chances for reelection. The Chinese caused the world to be unprepared for this virus, and Trump caused the United States to be unprepared. Three weeks ago, most of us never dreamed that our current living conditions were even possible. The decisions by the Chinese and by Trump for similar reasons has created chaos and is costing lives, yet the Chinese are blamed for all of it.

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Nana H

Brilliant thinking Toby.

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Toby

Thank you, Nana, that's how we stable geniuses do it. ;-)

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adoptedbyhounds

"Late last night I was reading a story which although it is being discounted that the virus was in this country in 2018/2019 there have been enough reports of similar symptoms that once a blood test is available people who thought they had it back then should be tested."

If you come across that story again, maifleur, please post it for us. There must be antibodies or other evidence of infection in the blood plasma of people who recovered, because it's going to be tested as a possible treatment for people sick with the virus. Taking the plasma from recovered patients would be one way of confirming patients had the virus, and the patients would know when they had it. I hope it works!


FTA: Doctors in New York will soon test an experimental therapy for COVID-19 that uses blood from people who recover from the disease, according to news reports.

The therapy, known as convalescent plasma, takes advantage of the virus-fighting antibodies that are present in people's blood after they recover from the illness, according to NBC News.




https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-recovered-patient-plasma-trial.html

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maifleur03

adopted it was one of the stories that post on Currently the combined AT&T and Yahoo so I probably never be able to find it but will look for it.

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maifleur03
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lurker111

Hmmm... the page you're looking for isn't here. Try searching above.

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adoptedbyhounds

Maifleur, Thanks for looking. Is this the article you saw? I read it, and also the embedded link to Facebook in that same article. I'm hoping we eventually learn the earliest date the virus was found in the US. There were people on FB who are convinced they've already had covid18. Would be interesting to know the facts on that.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/03/26/coronavirus-fact-check-could-your-december-cough-have-been-covid-19/2899027001/

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maifleur03

adopted that was the article. I know of one person that when I first read the symptoms I automatically thought of. His was early last year. He was sick with whatever it was for at least three weeks and his cough sounded hollow until June. His skin just had an odd coloration. I only see him once a month but most of the summer he would say that he still felt tired from having it. Looks and sounds like his normal self now.

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adoptedbyhounds

Well whatever he had, I am glad he's OK now!

I'm looking forward to the day when we have enough documented and scientific information to know how long the virus has been making people in the US sick.

Maybe it will wind up on Forensic Files II.

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wildchild2x2

I had a cough that lasted over 3 weeks in Jan,/Feb. I would experience sporadic chills and feel slightly feverish at times. I was very fatigued some days but pushed through since I have Meniere's (not a threat to my ability to fight off illness) that often makes me have to take a break now and then due to fatigue. I found it odd that I had little if any chest congestion and that my upper respiratory tract was clear, no runny nose or sinus backup.But that cough was something else. Kept me up at night. Not one to run to the doctor for anything that I can't handle I have no idea what it was and it would have been dismissed as just some virus anyway. A man I ride with was hospitalized around the same time with flu like symptoms. He tested negative for flu but at the time he had another unrelated physical condition requiring immediate surgery . He took much longer to recover from the surgery due to the former.

Under they come up with a titer test for antibodies for this virus, if they exist we will never know for certain certain. But I have long been in the camp that this virus was not something that suddenly appeared on a calendar day. It probably hit the healthy masses and it was only later the more fragile population took ill and it became noticed. It's one theory to consider anyway.

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adoptedbyhounds

Wildchild,

Thanks for adding your experience to this thread. I keep wondering why the symptoms are so varied between people. It's almost like it's more than one disease, but that doesn't make sense, does it?

The Dutch have been surprised by the number of health care workers carrying the virus who recently suffered minor symptoms from what they thought were colds or typical coughs.

FTA: When a handful of Dutch health workers fell ill days after the Netherlands’ first Covid-19 case, it prompted mass screening at two hospitals. What scientists found surprised them.

Some 1,353 hospital staff in Breda and Tilburg, who recently suffered typical winter coughs and sniffles, were tested for the coronavirus. Of those, 86 -- or 6.4% -- were positive. Barely half had a fever, and the majority reported working while they were mildly ill.

The “unexpected high prevalence” indicated hidden community spread, Marion Koopmans, Jan Kluytmans, and colleagues said in a report on Friday. The research is the first to describe clinical effects of the pandemic-causing disease among health-care workers and “confirms the insidious nature” of the coronavirus.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-28/dutch-hospital-workers-show-insidious-nature-of-coronavirus

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happy2b…gw

Wildchld wrote: I found it odd that I had little if any chest congestion and that my upper respiratory tract was clear, no runny nose or sinus backup.But that cough was something else. Kept me up at night.

Both my husband and I had the same symptoms in 3 weeks in December, and I also thought the severe cough without congestion was odd. We were sick for three weeks and still having coughing fits for most of January. Our flu, strep tests, and chest x-rays were negative. We did not have fevers above 100, but were lethargic and had no appetite. We mostly stayed in bed. The cough along with wheezing was intense with rattle in my throat. It was not deep in my chest but higher up toward the throat. The diagnosis was bronchitis. I saw doctor 3 times. First time I just had an annoying cough -no antibiotic, 2nd visit antibiotic prescribed but was not effective, 3rd time different antibiotic and inhaler prescribed and had a nebulizer treatment, and gradually felt better. I absolutely do not remember ever feeling this sick.

Interestingly, we were in Italy 12 days in early November. We flew home from Milan- my husband developed a cough on our last day there. He seemed to have a cold with a cough which lasted about week. Three weeks after arriving home, I got sick, and about 5 days later husband fell ill.

Not sure what to think about the timing of Covid-19, but all I can say is I have never experienced an illness anything like what I had in December and January. I also ran into complete strangers in January who commented as they coughed that they had had bronchitis, saw their doctors or gone to the emergency room several times, never felt as sick, and could not shake the cough though they felt better.

Edited to add: Malfleur observed that his friend's coloring was off. Prior to getting sick, I thought my skin coloring was odd and even asked my daughters if they noticed.

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maifleur03

adopted I think the explanation will be found in the mutation of the virus. Although not 100% proven the 1918 flu is considered to have mutated by the autumn of that year when it turned deadly.

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adoptedbyhounds

About the odd coloration...could you describe it, maifleur and happy2b?

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maifleur03

The man I know looked like he had milk spread on parts of his face. Understand I saw him in May.

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adoptedbyhounds

Hmmmmm..... Thanks, maifleur.


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Kathy

These women show a lung exercise that can be easily done at home and loosen mucus. I hope you can access it.

https://twitter.com/shooobz/status/1243706515921534978?s=21

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maifleur03

Easier if you live alone is to do the ABCs stretching the letter as long as you can trying to change the pitch lower so that it feels like you are vibrating your chest. With practice it can also be used to clear your sinus cavities.

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Kathy

Do you have a link showing how?

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