Hi Denita, I agree, it’s on him Where we are, taxes are due in advance paid in 2 yearly instalments March and July. Closing statement, who knows who wrote it up, states they were paid. By whose word? Definetly not according to the city.

Doubtful sellers will reimburse, and exceedingly more doubtful our lawyer will open his wallet. Rookie indeed, lol, not judging by his bald head and grad date, lol. I bet his secretary did the work without oversight. Amazing to me that a simple, (cash) real estate transaction could be mucked up. He definitely did not graduate at the top of his class. He confirmed that title ins. Will cover this, we will see!

Should we advise our realtor? His realty company uses this lawyer and sends all their clients to him.

I would wait for the attorney to get back in town and see how he wants to handle it. If he gives you a hard time, contact the title insurance company to see if the claim would be covered.

" We paid it, thinking this was for 2020 taxes. To our surprise, we received yet another tax bill just this week."

Wow! I wonder how this mistake on your part will effect this problem!

@Stax - if the taxes aren't paid, then there are significant consequences for the owner of the property including a lien. What would have been the procedure if the taxes remained unpaid? The mistake was made by the people preparing the closing statement and the attorney review of that closing statement.

In our area, which appears to be different from your area, the tax records are easily available online and their payments are shown. The title co/closing attorney verifies the tax payments as part of the preparation of the closing statement. Verification is not just checking online either.

First, having significant experience with the tax assessor's office, I would put my money on it being their mistake. Tax liens and taxes in arrears are simply too common for an experienced attorney to forget to check and property tax offices often make mistakes. So I would caution against taking their word about what happened before getting the picture from all parties involved.

Next, you have named three different parties who could be responsible, two attorneys and a title company. Which is two more parties than would be involved in a closing here. Determining which is responsible is something we probably can't do without more details and maybe not then. Who did the closing? Who actually prepared the settlement statement that you were sent before closing? Was there a tax lien or just a tax bill? Can the city provide you with a reconciliation of property taxes?

If you hired an attorney to look over the deal, it is doubtful that he would perform services that have already been performed by a generally reliable third party. He would be running up the billable hours for no real value and that is dodgy. I would advise waiting and taking a bit of time working on this. Patience and persistence is probably your best shot.

@stax, since we owned the property, we owned the debt of unpaid taxes. Denita is correct, we are responsible for the property taxes as the property was transferred to us. Penalties, interest would continue to increase as long as the bill remained unpaid. This was confirmed by the city.

Yes, tax bills are available online to the owners of the property. There was no way to determine if taxes were paid prior to closing. Of course, We trusted our lawyer to ensure all was done and in order. Our lawyer should have ordered a tax disclosure from the city. I guess, we should not have trusted our lawyer To do his job correctly! Or is it the seller‘s lawyer that is at fault? Now the finger pointing can begin.

@bry We do not use title companies for realty transactions, up here. In our area only lawyers are able to do real estate transactions. As such, sellers and buyers are required to hire their own or respective lawyers to complete a real estate transaction. So 2 parties, 2 lawyers.

Title insurance is purchased at closing.

yes, we plan to wait and see what happens next. But it’s all just sooo frustrating.

So when you asked for a claim from title company...what title company? Are you talking about a claim against the title insurance?

Since you don't seem to have a settlement statement I guess there is no mortgage, so whoever provided the information will probably be responsible. It is a $2,000 tax bill, your house didn't hit an iceberg or anything, so I would try to relax a bit. It could be worse (ask me how I know)... I wouldn't think a couple of experienced attorneys are going to get too upset about a $2,000 tax bill.

"since we owned the property, we owned the debt of unpaid taxes."

Oh, I entirely understand that. You said you received a Bill in January and mistakenly paid it - I was trying to get at what would have happened had you recognized it was 2019's Tax Bill and not paid it.

Haha, bry, no we didn’t hit an iceberg. You are right no mortgage. The info that the taxes were paid, was probably provided by the 80 yr old sellers to their lawyer. Who probably didn’t confirm and then this unconfirmed info was provided to our lawyer and this was presented in the adjustments disclosure or notice. title company has no role to play until we put forth a claim. Jut like putting for an auto ins claim or home ins. Claim.

Oh yeah, a Bit more aside info, we agreed to purchase equipment such as lawn tractor etc., which were described as 2-3 yrs old in good working condition. Well, guess what...same with appliances which were also supposed to be in good working condition. Guess why I got a new washer for Xmas!

Lesson learned, don’t trust your lawyer and don’t purchase from octogenarians. The later think everything is new...

https://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/en/insurance/brochures/Pages/understanding-title-insurance.aspx

@stax. In the end, we have no choice but to pay since The property was now in our name.if we didn’t pay, penalties and interest would have continued to grow. It should have been caught by lawyers at closing. I guess, I should have asked the lawyer for proof that taxes were paid, but we trusted Our lawyer to do his job.

@ncrealestateguy. The appliances were sold with the house and deemed in working condition. Inspection did not include running appliances. As for outdoor equipment, we purchased based on trust, as we were not allowed to inspect them. Frankly, this later part is not a big deal, husband has good mechanic sense and can repair.

But the taxes, well that is a bigger deal, whic, hopefully will be resolved. It’s amazing, though that lawyer probably asked if they were paid and just trusted sellers memory that they paid them.

It’s amazing, though that lawyer probably asked if they were paid and just trusted sellers memory that they paid them.

With all due respect, that is incredibly unlikely. An experienced real estate attorney IS NOT going to take the word of the seller or the seller's realtor. They may take written confirmation from another attorney or a title company as that attorney then assumes responsibility. Anyone who has closed a couple of dozen houses would get bitten by that policy and learn their lesson, so of all possible explanations that is the most remote.

It is far more likely that a clerk at the city messed up. I have had two different cities mess up tax assessments that resulted in problems, I paid the same small assessment three times just to not have to deal with stupid people.

It is also more likely that it was simply overlooked. A number was written in by either attorney as a preliminary number that someone was supposed to verify and didn't, which I would still believe is more remote than the city messing up, but it happens.

There is a danger in constructing a narrative like this, I urge you to find out what happened rather than try to fill in the holes. The problem being an attorney taking the word of a seller on taxes should be a bit more rare than Big Foot sightings, so I have just about the same reaction. When you are after a resolution, stick to the facts you know, don't fill in the parts you don't know with what you believe, it isn't going to do you any favors.

"It is far more likely that a clerk at the city messed up."

This is my bet too.

BTW, every inspector I have used runs every kitchen appliance.

@ bry, you are correct, it is hard to believe an experienced (well over 10 yrs) lawyer could muck up A simple real estate transaction. Hence, why I posted this here. After all, This is basic real estate 101. And yes, I am now in a holding pattern, waiting to see what will transpire. In reality, I do not have a choice, but to pay yet another tax bill and wait and see. My hands are tied.

Again, it Is against the law, up here, for any entity other than a licensed lawyer to perform real estate transactions. So no title company involved, 2 lawyers only and their respective staff.

The city clerk, noted that a tax report was not ordered. If it was, there would have been a record of purchase along with a charge of 72.00 noted for said record. The clerk was surprised that a tax record was not ordered. She further noted the ordering of tax records was generally standard practice in real estate transactions. This is a large metropolitan city. Ya can’t get any record or document from the city without being charged. They keep transaction Records for any and all record requests. They were quick, for example, to charge 44.00 for the name change on the property. The facts wiki come out in due course.

@ Ncrealestateguy, I am not concerned about the broken washer and the other stuff purchased.

Two nice, new appliances cost about $2000...

I think there is a charge for records because then the clerks office and the purchaser have a financial transaction that the records were checked.

Again, it Is against the law, up here, for any entity other than a licensed lawyer to perform real estate transactions. So no title company involved, 2 lawyers only and their respective staff.

Title companies are often subcontracted for title searches, and are available in all 50 states. Their work is typically allowed as part of a closing even when they are not directly involved in the closing. Every title company here lists an attorney as a principle (and that is standard) thus are allowed to be party to real estate transactions under that license. In all fifty states a title company's work is accepted in transactions even when they are not the closing attorney. Here every title company must have an attorney as a principle and can close because of that.

Furthermore, I am not speaking only to you, I am giving information that may be used by other people in your situation so just because you didn't have a title company involved doesn't change the fact that it is one of the parties an attorney would rely on.

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You are still taking the word of the clerk at the city tax assessment/collection office. A simple typo would result in an erroneous report and no record on your address. When I was in grad school I used to teach accounting at a night program in a large metro area. I had several people who worked at various city collections and assessment offices in class (they needed X number of accounting hours for a promotion). I can assure you, you are not protected from dumb mistakes and denials about dumb mistakes by being in a large metro area.

Finally, it is entirely possible that it was simply overlooked. People get busy, a number gets plugged in accidentally and makes its way through. Which is different than what you are saying! If you tell me that your attorney made a mistake, I would say, "it happens." However, you said that your attorney relied on a statement by the seller as to taxes owed, which is a lot different.

"In the end, we have no choice but to pay since The property was now in our name.if we didn’t pay, penalties and interest would have continued to grow."

This is simply not correct. When you receive a bill for a debt that should have been paid by someone else, the correct action is to pick up the phone and determine where the error was made.

To blindly pay $2000 puts you in a situation where you are seeking "advice" at an on-line forum from people that do not live in your jurisdiction AND you have put yourself in a situation where you need to consider claims or even law suits.

Playing catch up after you paid a debt owed by someone else should not be confused with some notion that it is your house.

When you receive a bill for a debt that should have been paid by someone else, the correct action is to pick up the phone and determine where the error was made.

Property taxes are a bit more nuanced than a standard debt. They are assessed to the property and not the owners. When you buy a house, you owe all property taxes on it and they become your debt and not someone else's. You might be able to seek recourse or you might not, depending on the terms of the sale.

I would not advise anyone wait on paying property taxes on a home. Even if you could collect the amount from someone else, I doubt you will collect the interest and fees and having a tax lien on a property is bad news. So you pay it.

Stax, our lawyer, stated that had we called him at the time we received the first tax bill. He would have advised us to pay it. If we don’t pay it, we are responsible for interest and penalties. The issue would and does remain the same. Bry is right!

There is no difference in calling our lawyer in Jan vs now, the process of clearing up the mess remains the same.

@bry, note that I am using the word Probably...

NB It might be helpful to know this transaction occurred north of the 48th. So entirely different real estate rules and regulations.

In Ontario, solicitors handle the transaction, but they all use title insurance as a backup.

As an equity mortgage lender, we once had a similar situation. The borrower needed funds for back property taxes, so we directed the solicitor to pay those taxes out of the mortgage proceeds. A couple of months after closing, we received notice of an outstanding tax bill for C$15K+/-. Our solicitor with some 40 years experience immediately offered to pay the outstanding amount; his paralegal was in tears over their mistake. However, the Title insurer made the payment and I really don't know how they were reimbursed by the solicitor (or his insurance).

We've used him for dozens of transaction since. Even the most meticulous practitioners occasionally slip up.

***

If the OPs solicitor is licensed in Ontario and the OP feels they are getting the runaround, they can contact the Law Society of Ontario.

Thank you Worthy, this might be the next step. It would be nice if our solicitor would offer to pay. His offer, was to help me file a claim...No, I want you to file the claim, not me!!

Our lawyer, has now contacted sellers lawyer. The latter, in turn, has contacted their client/seller, with the goal of them, reimbursing the funds. These folk are in their 80s, very doubtful they will reimburse.

Our lawyer promised to update us within 24hrs and indicated they would file an insurance claim immediately. Well, this has not happened. Of course, we are now chasing our lawyer.

In our closings here in the lower 48 the sellers and buyers sign 'cooperation agreements' with the closing attorney's and title companies. These agreements essentially say the seller will cooperate with the attorney after closing if an error is found. Clearly the seller would be responsible for the payment of property taxes during their ownership unless the contract stated otherwise. I assume these agreements/disclosures are enforceable. I would think you have something similar in your closings.

Hi Denita, to my knowledge, there is no such ‘after the fact’ agreement. Due diligence happens via searches etc prior to closing and signed off at closing. I just now recall our lawyer saying title searches are not necessary because, if something happens, a claim can be filed with the insurance company.

Ours are short - looks a lot like a disclaimer but is signed by the title co/attorney and the buyer or seller. They are usually 1 or 2 pages. Many don't think of these as contracts - but they are contracts. They are signed at closing. Likely these are to reduce liability and required by the attorney's E&O insurance.

ETA: I don't understand how title insurance can be issued without a search. Our title insurance policies have very specific requirements (Schedule B-I) and exclusions (Schedule B-II) listed. Some of the exclusions can be removed based on a survey, but when you get the title commitment it is very, very specific and the policy follows the commitment. I don't know how you would have title insurance without a search first. But then again, that's how it is done here.

This is not a due diligence issue. The seller signed a representation that was not true. Due diligence covers things that are not misrepresented, purposely or otherwise, it generally doesn't cover numbers that are errors. Buyer beware doesn't mean people can lie to you. It means that you have a duty to satisfy yourself as to the condition and terms, but clerical errors and misrepresentations are not covered.

In the U.S., Canada, the UK, and Australia a post closing cooperation agreement is pretty common. It isn't really necessary as it is one of those things that you are already legally required to do, but is often signed as a notice. The seller is going to owe the money, it just comes down to who is responsible for collecting. For a $2,000 error no one will probably collect, for a much larger error there would be an attempt at recovery.

@ bry, I will ask about post closing agreement.

What annoys me, is when a pro states they will contact you back by x time and they don’t. Don’t make promises you can’t keep, even a quick contact saying they don’t have the info at this point is ok.

Here are some of the things covered in this case

Stewart Title is huge. Looks like your tax issue is covered (to me) but I'm not an attorney.

Update Guess the practice of real estate law has changed up north. Here is what our lawyer sent us. It’s hard to believe that it’s now done this way...Regardless, we are covered, but what a way to do things!

“Property tax searches used to be a standard search and were required to be done in all real estate deals prior to the advent of title insurance. Since title insurance became standard practice, a number of searches have become not recommended and the legal community has changed its practice to ensure clients can have the full benefit of title insurance coverage. Doing these searches pre-closing can prejudice your ability to make a claim later.”

Here are the practice guidelines for residential real estate transactions in Ontario.

See this clause, in particular, dealing with title insurance:

Wonderfully weaselly-worded!

"Your lawyer should advise the client about the searches the lawyer will not be performing...." Should is defined in the Guidelines as a recommendation. So your lawyer is off the hook.

Since high-risk mortgages are our business, I specifically tell our solicitors (hate that Americanism, "lawyers"!) to check property taxes.

“ Your lawyer should advise the client about the searches the lawyer will not be performing...."

Nope, this did not happen. CYA attitude prevailed. He briefly explained purpose of title insurance such as safe guarding against encroachments, but that’s it. What really bugs me, is the deceit and unfairness of it all. The sellers get away with a freebie, the insurance co gets to pay out, which in turn, increases long term consumer costs.

The sellers get away with a freebie, the insurance co gets to pay out, which in turn, increases long term consumer costs.

How does it increase long term consumer costs? It really has no affect on long term consumer costs. You can certainly argue that insurance administration costs increase long term consumer costs, but there is no marginal long term cost from using insurance versus not using insurance and there should generally be some decrease in long term consumer costs for using insurance, although not typically against a tax bill.

Insurance decides not to collect the claim from the seller because the return is too low. However, because the insurance protection exists the attorneys get to charge less. Without the insurance protection for this the attorneys would have to cover it and since largely it is a zero sum game the attorney would have to raise prices. Since attorneys would, by function, be less efficient at protection they would charge more.

Any updates? Where I live the title company would check for any outstanding debt and would not issue title unless they felt it was a clear title with no liens. Their insurance would cover if an issue came up they did not find a the time they gave you title. That is their job, to check for title encumbrances, liens, loans, etc. The seller could tell you they have no loans........then a loan is found after closing. That is one of the things title companies check, all recorded liens. Where I live, they also check property tax, and the water bill since it stays with the house. This bill should be reimbursed by: the seller, one of the attorneys, the title company or their insurance, or even the realtor. This is not an expensive lesson for the buyer. They more than covered themselves with all of the professionals involved. I am sorry for the distress and hope it has been satisfactorily resolved by now.

@ladr, we are still waiting for a cheque. Our lawyer filed a claim with ins company, who said they will put cheque in mail That was last week, we are still waiting.

Then, We actually contacted the sellers who were surprised by this. They stated the lawyers were supposed to settle everything at closing. They stated they would talk to their lawyer as well. Sellers said they would send us a cheque. Not sure if sellers or their lawyer will be sending the cheque.

So not sure when said cheque or cheques will arrive. Of course if we receive 2 cheques, one will be returned.

As I noted previously, our lawyer admitted they do not check if taxes were paid because Title Insurance covers these deficiencies.

If this is normal practice, why would any seller bother paying property taxes? Just sell the place, and let title co. pay them..via buyer’s claim.

So not sure when said cheque or cheques will arrive. Of course if we receive 2 cheques, one will be returned.

Can you stop the buyers from sending you a cheque before they send it? I fear you are turning an annoyance into a problem. You probably can't return either payment without a release from the other party. Your insurance policy has rules on what you must do when you receive payment for a claim you made against insurance. That might include immediate cancellation of the claim or it might include assigning the check to them.

I can't believe your attorney let you contact the sellers after he had already filed a claim. That is a messy can of worms for this small of a problem. On the bright side, if you want to torture your attorney call him up and let him know you received two payments and ask what you should do... He is going to love that extra bit of work.

@ Bry, the whole thing is ridiculous. Here is our lawyer‘s response/instructions, after they heard back from seller’s lawyer. I would love to torture our lawyer, hehe! By the way, our realtor has ceased sending clients to his firm. Oh and he’s not getting to revise our wills and POA’s, no more business from us!

“They are apparently very apologetic that they have not paid the taxes and have asked if an interac e-transfer is acceptable to you. If this is okay I will call the lawyer back and advise that this works, and provide your preferred email for the transfer.
If the Stewart title cheque comes and you have completed the transfer, it will need to be returned. However, if we do it this way, as soon as you advise me you have received funds I will advise them to halt the claim process and to cancel any cheques issued.

Sorry this has dragged on so long. The seller obviously wants to make this right. Let me know if we can get an etransfer your way and I will follow up.”

Be careful with an etransfer. Make sure it can't be clawed back. A wire would be safest IMO. Do check with your attorney first.

Thanks Denita I don’t trust that guy if you paid me. Oh by the way, he assigned his mess to another lawyer in his office. Go figure!

I don't blame you for not trusting him!

Ya know Denita, his entire practice and firm isReal estate, wills etc You would think he would make it right, cut me a cheque and collect the money himself. In other words, a real professional would take full responsibility and make it right. What a way to run a business!

Agreed.

Update, still no money..Our lawyer states title company put it in the mail that was 2 weeks ago.

I was reading a title policy recently and it specifically stated that only the insured could make a claim against the policy and no one else. Did you make the claim or did your attorney make the claim on your behalf? If he made it on your behalf, I would ask him for documentation of the claim and any correspondence with the title insurance company on your behalf. JMO.

hi Denita, she made it on our behalf. Yesterday, she indicated it was put in the mail. Our next step is to do exactly as you said. We might ask for claim no and contact ins. Company directly.

ETA sorry if there is confusion re he or she. Our initial lawyer is a he, when the trouble begsn he passed it down to another gal in his firm. we have never spoke or heard from him again. To think he wants us to review our wills etc. with him! Not!

Finally, deposited the check yesterday. Title company put wrong postal code, but they were good about contacting post office and correcting the error.

In the meantime, we sold a small lot and our new lawyer even had the tax files and yes they were all paid up.

Lesson learned, double check your pro make sure they do their job properly.

Congratulations. I'm so glad you finally were able to put that chapter behind you.

Thanks Denita, we might contact law society. We will see