Creeping authoritarianism....how we doing?

Annie Deighnaugh

I came across a post from 2018 based on an article in Foreign Policy from 2017 (https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/07/27/top-10-signs-of-creeping-authoritarianism-revisited/) on signs of creeping authoritarianism. I thought it would be worthwhile to revisit to see how far we've creeped since then...

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Signs of creeping authoritarianism:

  • Systematic efforts to intimidate the media (the press is the enemy of the people)
  • Building an official pro-trump network (fox news, sinclair)
  • Politicizing the civil service, military, national guard, or domestic security agencies (demanding loyalty pledges from the FBI, purging the FBI of those who would investigate trump and his family, more to come with sessions/rosenstein post election, demoting and eliminating scientists who discuss climate change)
  • Using govt surveillance against domestic political opponents (working with russia to access stolen emails from the dnc)
  • Using state power to reward corporate backers and punish opponents (going after amazon as a way to punish bezos who owns WaPo)
  • Stacking the supreme court (kavanaugh)
  • Enforcing the law for one side only (not clear yet, though some issues around immigration law and ICE)
  • Really rigging the system (refusing to block russian interference in our election and their propaganda attacks on our politics)
  • Fear mongering (lying about non-existent riots and hordes of muslims intermixed in caravans about to burst through our borders)
  • Demonizing the opposition (lying about rioting democrats who are incapable of governing)

Moreover, I don't see in any of these areas where the situation has improved...]

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queenmargo

Moreover, I don't see in any of these areas where the situation has improved...]

I do;) It was in your bullet points;))

Stacking the supreme court (kavanaugh)

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sheesh(5b)

It isn't "creeping" any more. We ain't seen nuthin' yet.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Creeping along with King Creepy

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numbersjunkie

Margo, is stacking the court more important to you than avoiding authoritarian government? What good are the courts anyway when that takes hold? Once power is seized, the courts mean nothing. Your remark sounds un-American to me.


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Annie Deighnaugh

Signs of creeping authoritarianism: New stuff added in bold

  • Systematic efforts to intimidate the media (the press is the enemy of the people) the cessation of press briefings; firing Victoria Coates, deputy national security adviser who was falsely accused of being the Anonymous author.

  • Building an official pro-trump network (fox news, sinclair) giving limbaugh the medal of freedom

  • Politicizing the civil service, military, national guard, or domestic security agencies (demanding loyalty pledges from the FBI, purging the FBI of those who would investigate trump and his family, more to come with sessions/rosenstein post election, demoting and eliminating scientists who discuss climate change) see the many posts on barr politicizing the DoJ including interfering in flynn and stone cases and becoming trump's agent on ukraine

  • Using govt surveillance against domestic political opponents (working with russia to access stolen emails from the dnc)

  • Using state power to reward corporate backers and punish opponents (going after amazon as a way to punish bezos who owns WaPo) Ukraine awarded lucrative gas deal to rick perry (part of the 3 amigos) supporters; trump approved t-mobile/sprint merger after it spent $200k at trump hotels.

  • Stacking the supreme court (kavanaugh) 25% of federal court judgeships have been appointed by trump

  • Enforcing the law for one side only (not clear yet, though some issues around immigration law and ICE) See pardons for bid donors including Milken's which was suggested by Petz who held trump's largest fund raiser

  • Really rigging the system (refusing to block russian interference in our election and their propaganda attacks on our politics) Firing Maguire and Pierson for doing their jobs as required by law, briefing Congress on ongoing russian interference in our election

  • Fear mongering (lying about non-existent riots and hordes of muslims intermixed in caravans about to burst through our borders) Democrats attempted a coup and declared an illegal partisan war on American democracy

  • Demonizing the opposition (lying about rioting democrats who are incapable of governing) Democrats are socialists who hate America

There are probably a lot more...if anyone would like to add to the list, feel free.

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paprikash

To add to the list:

Pathetic partisan shampeachments

Not accepting election results

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how2girl

More galloping than creeping.

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socks(10a)

That’s chilling

He’s sprinting, not creeping, now that he’s unleashed.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Yes socks, the pace at which these moves will be taken will ramp up quickly as he's only recently gotten completely unleashed, and he's not sure he'll win the election so his time may be limited in which to consolidate power, and of course nothing like campaign season to bring corruption and the corrupters to a peak frenzy.

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bleusblue2

paprikash

To add to the list:

Pathetic partisan shampeachments

Not accepting election results

~~~~

that's opinion not fact

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Election results were accepted just not the resulting trump's corruption of the government. We'll see how well trump accepts the results in Nov., are you trumpsters willing follow him into civil war like he suggested? (too hypothetical for ya I know)

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adoptedbyhounds

Democrats have been demonizing Donald Trump and his supporters since before the election. That might explain why Trump supporters don't find the endless efforts to paint him as an authoritarian even mildly persuasive. Once you've been called deplorable and irredeemable by the opposition candidate you know they have nothing to offer rational adults.

The authoritarian behavior comes from Dems, with no apologies.

Donald Trump isn't behind refusing to serve conservatives in restaurants.

Donald Trump hasn't told Americans to get in people's faces and argue with them.

Donald Trump didn't advise Americans "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun."

Donald Trump didn't tell Americans to confront Trump supporters in restaurants and "gasoline stations."


Three years of Dems. trashing Americans has taught folks what intolerance, abuse, and authoritarianism look like. And it's not Trump the victims are worried about.

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lurker111

I just heard that the Obama whistle blower was found shot dead in his driveway.

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paprikash

Well said ABH but the democrat Party of Hate will never admit just how wrong they are

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Joaniepoanie

Trump talks hate every chance he gets, nonstop—-the head of the Republican party and the president. That’s quite different than some individuals in the opposition party making statements here and there.

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ubro(2a)

Donald Trump isn't behind refusing to serve conservatives in restaurants.

Donald Trump hasn't told Americans to get in people's faces and argue with them.

Donald Trump didn't advise Americans "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun."

Donald Trump didn't tell Americans to confront Trump supporters in restaurants and "gasoline stations."

No, but he has created the divide by his lies, his abuse of power, his inflammatory rhetoric against, Mexicans, immigrants, the press and on and on.


How about these actions? You are cherry picking incidence that make the Dems look violent and refusing to acknowledge the role Trump plays in RW violence.


This wasn’t the first time Trump had mused about violence, of course. He has talked about “Second Amendment people” preventing the appointment of liberal judges. He’s encouragedpolice officers to bang suspects’ heads against car roofs. He has suggested his supporters “knock the hell” out of hecklers. At a rally shortly before 2018 Election Day, he went on a similar riff about Bikers for Trump and the military.

His latest incitement fit a historical pattern, and one with “scary echoes,” as Daniel Ziblatt, who co-wrote the recent book “How Democracies Die,” told me. Trump combined lies about his political opponents — Democrats who need to be investigated (for made-up scandals) — with allusions to a patriotic, violent response by ordinary citizens. Latin American autocrats, including Hugo Chávez in Venezuela, have used this combination. So did European fascists in the 1930s.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/17/opinion/trump-violence.html


Or this news piece-

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889

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Annie Deighnaugh

I'm certainly not condoning calls for violence or violating anyone's rights on either side, but just remember the amount of damage an individual can do is small compared to the amount of damage a government can do, especially one run by an authoritarian. So when trump is an apologist for putin and other authoritarians being murderers or looks the other way at khashoggi's murder, it's far more dangerous than making someone uncomfortable in a restaurant, or arguing with them.

Also this straw man argument that dems are all socialists is ridiculous. Some of the biggest capitalists going are dems ... only they recognize the difference between regulated and unregulated capitalism and crony capitalism vs a regulated economy to benefit the consumers. After all, it was Jimmy Carter who started the deregulation of key industries such as trucking, rail, airlines and telecommunications...it was reagan who took credit for it though. It was the republican president with his laissez faire fed chief greenspan who brought the global economy to its knees, and it was the democratic president obama who righted it and put it on a path to growth again.

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adoptedbyhounds

"How about these actions? You are cherry picking incidence that make the Dems look violent and refusing to acknowledge the role Trump plays in RW violence."

Nope, I'm simply noting incidents when Americans were mistreated by libs. There's no excuse for Americans to be chased out of restaurants, an no excuse of the likes of Maxine Waters to call for those actions. If you're unhappy about the fact that Americans aren't moved by lists of supposed authoritarian tendencies, it's a problem for Dems to solve. Conservatives and President Trump didn't bring about that mistreatment.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

As long as Americans can still legally own millions and millions and millions of firearms the the Authoritarian Government has not arrived.

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bleusblue2

^^^not much analysis there. The authoritarian government can arrive without carrying a single firearm. In fact it can arrive and most won't even be aware that it happened. And firearms will not prevent it,

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

That might explain why Trump supporters don't find the endless efforts to paint him as an authoritarian even mildly persuasive.

He paints himself, in more ways than one.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Come on bleusblue2, show me one single "Authoritarian Government" that came into existence without disarming its citizens. Show off that analytical thinking...

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Joaniepoanie

Is the right really suggesting that mistreatment has only been done by Dems toward Trumpers? Really?!

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bleusblue2

We no longer live in the days of cowboys and indians. Authoritarian Government isn't going to conquer the whole country with guns, tanks and nuclear weapons. Dictatorship usually comes about with the support of the military. Authoritarian Government is what we are talking about -- well that will sneak up on you after the institutions are gradually castrated or neutralised, no doubt with the help of a very willing uninformed population.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

So, no historical examples, we are in uncharted territory then? There is no chance of an "Autoritarian Government" until the US population is disarmed. That's why the socialists will first enact "gun control", then enact "monetary controls". Cause history...

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Annie Deighnaugh

Really, jonnygun? Really? That's where you want America to go...for citizens to be fighting government forces in the streets? To war with your own fellow citizens? How many must die? Do you even know what you're suggesting?

The whole purpose of our form of government is that we lead a civilized and peaceful life which recognizes individual rights and uses laws and courts to settle our disputes, not guns and killing. Can't we put a stop to trump's authoritarian takeover before it comes to that?

SMH

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Strawman much Annie? Or, did you just not read?


OMG OMG OMG!

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sheesh(5b)

Jonnygun, how do you envision taking down the U.S. government and its military? Near as I can tell, assault weapons proponents don't have what might be considered a well armed militia practicing weekly in divisions anywhere. Seriously, I'd like to see the vision in your head of how you and/or your well-armed friends will stave off the U.S. military and the entire government.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Argue Annie's strawman yourself sheesh.


My point, had you read it, was that mass private ownership of firearms is an indication that the "autoritarian government" has not arrived. Because, historically, the first thing ANY "autoritarian government" does is control a populace's "arms" and "wealth". But history right?


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bleusblue2

My point is that "authoritarian government" and "dictatorship" are two different things. No, there will be no fighting in the streets. If that happens most of us will become refugees.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Come on Bleusblue2 get real. "Autoritarian government" throughout history follow a similar pattern of actions. Pick any example and research it. First they take the weapons, then they take the money. Prove me wrong.


The closest I can see to your "slowly creeping autoritarian government" would be modern Europe. But, that is what you desire right?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Because, historically, the first thing ANY "autoritarian [sic] government" does is control a populace's "arms" and "wealth".

Actually not. I suggest you look at On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder or Masha Gessen's article Autocracy: Rules for Survival https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/

Or the Foreign Policy article cited in the OP.

If you think you're safe because they haven't come for your gun yet, you're wrong. trump has already made huge strides toward authoritarianism without firing a single shot. putin has been more successful using cyberwarfare to infiltrate the US government, with a willing president, than they ever did with arms. Plus so many liberties are lost in the voting booth when people voluntarily give them away....as trump supporters are doing now in supporting their tinpot despot.

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sheesh(5b)

Apparently you haven't considered what good your guns will do against the government. Do you really think there will be battles in the streets? You against the US? If the argument is a straw man, I don't see it. What I do see is foolishness. Several dozen men wearing red MAGA caps and camo t-shirts in their well-regulated militia marching towards the enemy.

It isn't guns that are changing our government to authoritarianism. It's support of people who want an authoritarian government.


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sheesh(5b)

I for one will not be going to your links. On this issue my head is buried as deeply as yours is, jonnygun. I can't speak for Annie or anyone else.

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sheesh(5b)

I see that you missed a few other scholarly articles and interviews at Harvard.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Sheesh.


Privately armed citizens are like canaries in a mine.


I pick and choose my articles as I want lol. Bet you didnt read it did ya...


Equally humorous to me is the thought that the US military, as it is structured today, would be the instrument of oppression in your scenario.

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Annie Deighnaugh

jonnygun, did you even read the abstract for the article you referenced? I think not. If you did, you didn't understand it.

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sheesh(5b)

If it isn't, why do you need the guns?

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

The direction trump is heading in will only encourage his gun toting supporters to use those guns to defend his dictatorship and not defeat it. They'll be shooting people on 5th Ave and then trump will support them.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I did. What about it fails to support my position? After the Bolsheviks took over the first thing they did was disarm the populace in the various regions they were trying to control. All that is left after that is one "Authoritarian Government" after the other. Leaving folks like Masha with nothing left to do but cry about but slow creeping authoritarianism...

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sheesh(5b)

I pick and choose my articles as I want lol. Bet you didnt read it did ya...

That's obvious!

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Do you need more examples Annie of how the Soviets subjugated region after region? Perhaps some examples from S America or Africa?

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queenmargo

Your remark sounds un-American to me.

You want to talk un-American, vote for Bernie. He and his supporters HATE America. He is a communist.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I just sit here waiting on one of the "super smart" liberals here to point me at an example of an "authoritative government" that came into being without first disarming its populace...


Gonna be a very very long wait.

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Stan Areted

Heck, Obama seemed to hate America.

He disparaged us at every opportunity, especially to foreign countries.

Being the jealous misanthropes many are, they ate it up.

The liberal mind seems to run on judgment, negativity, criticism, resentment and CONTROL.

Considering the media is almost all liberal, it's done it's job well, with parents abdicating their responsibility and allowimg the media to influence their children which are now adult age--but not adults--and they're ripe for Bernie's picking.

If Bernie wins--and I think there may be a chance he does--don't count on conservatives rolling over and handing over a lifetime of work and choices to a hypocritical greedy old socialist and his stupid, violent, angry and lazy sycophants.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Jonnygun, how do you envision taking down the U.S. government and its military?"

It's not Jonnygun who continues to claim that the US government is about to be taken down.

The Trump/Authoritarian narrative is coming from the left.

The Trump/Russia narrative is offered as "proof" that we're at "risk" because the supposed "authoritarian" is simultaneously "Putin's Puppet." And besides, Rush Limbaugh got the Medal of Freedom! You can't make this stuff up.

How DARE Donald Trump "purge" the FBI of individuals who attempted to frame him as a Russian asset??? Who does he think he is, President of the United States?

Who "allowed" Trump to put an experienced AG back on the job, to determine how the Russia probe ever got started??? Now the left wants Barr removed as well. How long until US Attorney John Durham is smeared as part of Trump's supposed "authoritarian" dream fantasies?

The left is at war with Americans, enraged that they continue to think for themselves.

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Annie Deighnaugh

The left is at war with Americans...

And there it is again, the sentiment that if you don't support trump, you aren't a real American...but it's the left that allows no diversity in thought or policy, yes? And it's the left that's responsible for the escalating divisiveness in our country, right?

SMH

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Stan Areted

adoptedbyhounds:

"The left is at war with Americans, enraged that they continue to think for themselves."


Succinct, true, and what this election is all about.

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Annie Deighnaugh

How DARE Donald Trump "purge" the FBI of individuals who attempted to frame him as a Russian asset???

So tell me how did the FBI get djt-jr and kushner and others to take that meeting with the russians to talk about "adoptions"? Not to mention over 100 other meetings and contacts. And how did they get trump to hire manafort as campaign chair with all his russian and ukraine connections? And how did they get stone to contact wikileaks and coordinate dumping all those stolen emails? And how did they get trump to ask russia if they're listening? And especially to think that the FBI that was led by gop members who would risk their careers just to become agents of the DNC and then cleverly spill the beans about the hillary investigations so she couldn't get elected?!?

I gotta hand it to them. They must be so clever...too clever for me as none of it makes sense.

You see it's not the fbi "frame" that came first...it was trump's interactions with russians. Once you get that, the rest falls neatly into place. Otherwise your left with a logical mare's nest. And if it doesn't make sense, it's not true. (Thank you Judge Judy.)

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Still waiting Annie, but I guess it is just easier to move on huh?


I cant wait for a Bernie vs Trumpet show down. Im crossing my fingers and toes. How would the Libs spin Russian meddling when their candidate is an actual commie?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Jonnygun, I was trying to spare you, but if you insist....

I'll quote the very first line of the abstract to the harvard study *you* linked to:

"If a government is facing an armed uprising, why doesn’t it confiscate all
privately-owned weapons?"

In other words, it isn't always done.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

You might, maybe, perhaps read just a little more than the first line...


But, why bother when you can make empty claims of "slow creeping Authoritarianism" and post an article complaining about the loss of freedoms in Russia.


Lmao!

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Annie Deighnaugh

Who's complaining about the loss of freedoms in russia? I mean, I'm not happy to see anyone lose freedoms to an authoritarian government, but when did I complain about that?

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Well Annie, you posted this link

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/


Which, I read, and learned that all of Masha's points were drawn from her experiences in Russia


"I have lived in autocracies most of my life, and have spent much of my career writing about Vladimir Putin’s Russia. I have learned a few rules for surviving in an autocracy and salvaging your sanity and self-respect. It might be worth considering them now"

She then listed her bullet points, which I also read. She however failed to realise that no matter what, Russians and every other group of people the Soviets later conquered, were doomed from the start. Way back in the early 20th when they lost their most important freedoms in exchange for "free stuff".

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Additionally, I have traveled to some really crappy places and they all have something in common. The fact that only the people in charge have guns. Kind of a low-brow concern these days, but absolutely true. From Eastern Europe to Africa to most of South/central America all the crap hole countries have poor frightened unarmed people kept under the heal of an armed gorvernment. The less freedom to protect yourself, personally, the less freedom in general.


That is the reason I am not concerned about "autoritarian goverment" right now. First they take the guns...

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elvis

lurker111

I just heard that the Obama whistle blower was found shot dead in his driveway.

Philip Haney, a DHS whistleblower in the Obama administration, was found murdered near his car in San Francisco, seemingly shot to death. His friends said he was very happy and was engaged to be married. His wife died last year.

Law Enforcement Today reports that Haney “dropped the hammer on the Obama administration regarding the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS.” He had a lot of enemies. In 2018, Haney told Intercessors for America prayer activists that he had been working on a “special assignment” in Minnesota to stop Rep. Keith Ellison from being elected Minnesota’s Attorney General. His goal, according to friends was to double down on “efforts to protect America from Progressive Leftists Socialists.”

According to Haney, the Constitution is threatened by “progressive leftist socialists” and by the Islamic movement. He said their goal is to impose Sharia law:

And that’s where Keith Ellison comes in. He’s actually a hybrid between both. He represents and is supported both by antifa, MoveOn.org, the Democratic national party’s position on abortion, open borders, sanctuary cities, every platform of the left, whereas on the other side he’s also affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the global Islamic movement that seeks to establish Sharia law.

Haney, who is credited with helping capture more than 300 jihadists, is best known for blowing the whistle on the Obama administration for shutting down an investigation he was leading that could have potentially stopped, among others, delete and scrub records the terrorist attack in San Bernardino. That attack, occurring on December 2, 2015, left 14 people dead and 22 seriously injured from gunshot wounds at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino.

UPDATE

Philip Haney died of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot, according to a statement issued Saturday afternoon by the Office the Sheriff-Coroner for Amador County, California that cautions the investigation is “active and ongoing”.

No final determination has been made.

https://www.independentsentinel.com/dhs-whistleblower-in-obama-admin-found-shot-dead/

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Ziemia(6a)

[A]fter the Germany’s defeat in World War I, the Weimar Republic, the government that preceded Hitler’s, passed very stringent gun laws that essentially banned all gun ownership in an attempt to both stabilize the country and to comply with the Treaty of Versailles of 1919.

By the time the Nazi Party came around in the early 1930s, a 1928 gun registration law had replaced the total ban and, instead, created a permit system to own and sell firearms and ammunition.

But Dagmar Ellerbrock, an expert on German gun policies at the Dresden Technical University in Germany, [has said] that the order was followed "quite rarely, so that largely, only newly bought weapons became registered. At that time, most men, and many women, still owned the weapons they acquired before or during the first World War."

The Nazis used the records to confiscate guns from their enemies, but Ellerbrock also said the files included very few of the firearms in circulation and that many Jewish people and others still managed to stash away weapons into the late 1930s.

In 1938, the Nazis adopted the German Weapons Act, which "deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns as well as ammunition," Harcourt wrote.

Under this law, gun restrictions applied only to handguns, permits were extended from one year to three years, and the legal age of purchase was lowered from 20 to 18.

Moreover, many more categories of people, including holders of annual hunting permits, government workers and members of the NSDAP (the National Socialist German Workers' Party), were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions.

Regulations were introduced, though, to impose limits on Jews.

...

Hitler was in favor of gun possession, and relaxed gun control laws in Germany for everyone, except Jews

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Ya mean after he spent the 5 years prior purging an unarmed German populace of anyone not a Nazi? Then, sure he was, at least for those in the Nazi party. Then, of course, things progressed- if you were a Pole, Slav, Frenchman, Russian, Hungarian, Jew or anyone else in German occupied territory Hitler was death on guns.


So, um, great arguement...

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I just cant get past this Ziemia. I cant believe you dragged Nazi Germany and their glorious Socialism out in a ridiculous attempt to undermine my arguement. Ya gonna trot out Venezuela next?


I'll save you the effort, that populous was also disarmed. Ditto for Cuba, Russia and any other historical example you could name.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Jonnygun, I'd refer you to this article: https://www.armedwithreason.com/militia-myths-why-armed-populations-dont-prevent-tyranny-but-often-lead-to-it/

Militias have a terrible history of creating tyranny, even when fighting against foreign powers. Militias that have been successful in warding off foreign aggression overwhelmingly opposed democratic rule. A few examples are Vietnam, Afghanistan, Cuba, Somalia, Iraq, and southern Lebanon; in none of these countries did the militias promote a free State. Add to this list countries where militias have ripped apart society in tribal states or civil war (such as Pakistan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mali, Colombia, and the Palestinian Territories) and we can form an even clearer picture of militias....

However, gun advocates claim, armed populations never have the chance to stop tyranny as they are disarmed first. There are many cases though where this is demonstrably untrue. Yemen is currently the second most heavily armed country in the world (per capita), and it is currently a battlefield between a Western dictatorship and various Jihadist organizations who have no love for a free State. Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries are heavily armed, with what can only be described as tyrannical governments. Iraq before the 2003 US invasion is perhaps the best example. Saddam Hussein falls under any definition of a tyrannical dictator, yet the Iraqi people were very heavily armed with a gun culture mirroring that of the US. How armed a population is appears to have no empirical bearing on how free that society is.

I found this especially interesting in light of trump's current authoritarian takeover of the US government:

It is worth noting at the outset that this fear of tyranny suddenly arising belies a fundamental misreading of how authoritarian regimes actually come to power. Namely, it assumes a false dichotomy between “the people” on one side and “the government” on the other. Government is not some foreign entity imposed on the people, which would only arise from a foreign country conquering the United States (not going to happen). Rather democratic government is derived from the people. A tyrannical government could only arise in the US with a majority of the population supporting it due to some economic or military crisis: in reaction, say, to a heavily armed minority attempting to enforce its will on the rest of the country. Government does not just “suddenly” become tyrannical.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

That article is funny. Thanks for sharing.


I want to eviscerate the whole thing but I will only tickle the funniest points.


Regarding Militias durring the American Revolution, who did the author think made up the continental army? The truth is that Joe and Bob and some neighbors got together and went and volunteered. That happened all over the country. State contingents were made up of... wait for it... militias.


The authors idiocy is evident in every single one of his examples. I mean the idiot claimed that Iraq, under Saddam, was populated by a heavily armed populace. True, I guess, if you were of Saddams Ba-ath party. Kinda like the Nazis they were fine with you owning weapons if you were of the ruling party. The rest of Iraq, be it Kurds or Shia or Shiites were definitely not allowed weapons. Ditto for Saudi Arabia currently.


And Yemen, really? The whole country is hosed, and has been for decades. He may as well as pointed at Palestine for his silly assertions. Pick any war torn country that was later taken over by a dictator and you will find anarchy and slaughter.


Funny enough every one of his examples featuring Pol Pot to Chairman Mao to the Bolshevik Revolution was no different than Hitlers rise to power. Namely a political coup over an unarmed populous. Communists and Socialists all make empty promises and every single example he made just further illustrates my contention. Guns rule the world.

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elvis

Thank you, Jonny, for that sanity. Sadly, it may well have fallen on deaf ears.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Deaf ears indeed.

The point being, if you think because you own a gun your government is safe from autocracy and your individual rights can't be abridged, think again.

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batyabeth

"their goal is to impose Sharia law"

oh, you mean the evangelical Christian Assembly of God crowd/the DeVoss crowd/ the Barr crowd who want to impose fundamentalist Christian law in the United States? Or the other American's who think government and religion must stay separate? Hmmmmm it's a real poser.

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Tilly Teabag

Guns against drones. Ok.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Firstly, I got distracted and began to froth at the mouth slightly lol.


Secondly, my point wasnt that "I" could defeat the might of the US military with just an AR and a combat knife. My point was that as a litmus test for "autoritarian government" the 2nd amendment serves the citizens of the US well.


Thirdly, who do left leaning posters here think serve in the US military? Overwhelmingly active duty and vets support the 2nd amendment. It would be wierd bizarro world where they side with a dictator against half the American population, especially the half made up of their friends and family. The feds (FBI, DHS, ATF) I suppose but not active military.


I think that a second civil war would be a bloody mess. If a force engaging in an asymmetrical war was problematic in Afganistan, Iraq and Vietnam imagine how difficult it would be here...

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how2girl

Jonnygun(zone 7)

I just sit here waiting on one of the "super smart" liberals here to point me at an example of an "authoritative government" that came into being without first disarming its populace...


Gonna be a very very long wait.


Jonnygun(zone 7)

Come on Bleusblue2 get real. "Autoritarian government" throughout history follow a similar pattern of actions. Pick any example and research it. First they take the weapons, then they take the money. Prove me wrong.


On the subject of “Authoritarian” regimes confiscating guns, well Yemen is classified as “Authoritarian” but according to gun law in Yemen firearm ownership is considered as a right rather than a privilege and therefore is allowed without any license or permit. Carry is unrestricted in the majority of the country. Yemen is the second most heavily armed country in the world after the United States (54 guns for every 100 residents).


Iraq; also classified as an “Authoritarian” regime - in 2012, Iraq relaxed its gun laws. The "possession of one rifle or pistol per home" was allowed via simple registration at local police stations. In 2018, the law was relaxed once again. The possession and carrying of handguns, semi-automatic firearms and other assault weapons for self-defense, hunting and sport shooting purposes was allowed. Firearm licenses require official authorization and identity cards.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Yemen is indeed a country without gun control of any significance. You forgot Somalia as there is also no gun control there! There is also no real government or even a functional societal structure beyond tribalism. I should also concede that parts of Africa are also currently without any gun control and are not "safe from authoritarianism".


I should have stated somewhere in my arguement "barring active war zones or places with no government or social structure beyond tribalism guns help ensure the freedoms of a civilized population". Perhaps I should throw in that my arguements were specific to countries that embrace freedom and liberty, maybe even embrace some form of democratic governance?


So I dont think that the right to bear arms (an armed populace) as a deterrent to Authoritarianism would apply to China, for example, because they have never been democratic. Or even Iran, Iraq (pre US), Saudi Arabia and I am sure others with a long glowing history of non democracy.


The US sure is special...

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ubro(2a)

I just sit here waiting on one of the "super smart" liberals here to point me at an example of an "authoritative government" that came into being without first disarming its populace...

Sure johnnygun, but you can have a corrupt dictatorial govt. that does not have gun restrictions.

All you need is a Senate refusing to remove a corrupt POTUS and you have then abolished any ability for checks and balances to be imposed on a corrupt leader.

You do not need to disarm the populace to have absolute control, once a leader faces no penalty for his actions you are no longer 'free' you are a prisoner to his will.

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sheesh(5b)

You still haven't told us what you and your friends are going to do with your guns to prevent a takeover. What good are your guns against the US government?


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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I am not a subversive militia member.

I am not a subversive militia member.

I am not a subversive militia member.


Lol, just had to get that out there for the NSA filters...

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batyabeth

oh for the love of mike, sanders isn't a communist. Please get your smearing, hysterical, ludicrous and lying name calling under control. Just because your leaders tell you he is "whatever" doesn't make it so, even if it would lend (sorely needed) verisimilitude to your narrative. As in, "he's a commie" so you and Joe McCarthy can re-gain control of 1950's America. Sheesh.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Um, Sanders is clearly a Communist/Socialist.


Ewww wordy words...

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ubro(2a)

Um, Sanders is clearly a Communist/Socialist.

And Trump is clearly a corrupt dictatorial tyrant, pick your poison.


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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Cant say "capitalist pig" can ya... lol

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

sanders isn't a communist.

Definitely not.

How did he survive US politics if he were?

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Well, he hasn't been a very successful congressman. I have read he was more of a commie when he was younger and converted his position to more of a socialist as his political career progressed.

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ubro(2a)

Cant say "capitalist pig" can ya... lol

Nope, because I have no problem with capitalism if it is moderated with social ideals and aims.

ETA I don't call capitalists 'pigs' just like I don't call socialist 'commies'

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Ziemia(6a)

Post WWI Germany population was not purged of personal firearms.

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how2girl

Jonnygun(zone 7)

Yemen is indeed a country without gun control of any significance. You forgot Somalia as there is also no gun control there! There is also no real government or even a functional societal structure beyond tribalism. I should also concede that parts of Africa are also currently without any gun control and are not "safe from authoritarianism".


No, I didn’t “forget” Somalia, I merely didn’t mention Somalia. Do you expect me to list all the countries that have an “authoritative government" that came into being without first disarming its populace... there are a few


You’ve be given the example you asked for, how about conceding that it wasn’t “a very very long wait”

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Just took a couple days to come up with Yemen and Iraq... lol. And they are not good examples. Yemen was never, and has never been a democracy. Never ever as far as I can tell, so not really germaine. The same can be said for Iraq. Hopefully democracy in some form can take hold there, but I doubt it.


When the best examples provided are countries that go from one form of Monarchy or dictatorship to another are not good examples of armed citizenry being a guarantee of personal freedoms.

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adoptedbyhounds

The words authoritative and authoritarian are easy to confuse, but mean different things.

In parenting, the authoritarian expects obedience without question.

The authoritative parent expects obedience, but is willing to discuss or explain why it's necessary.

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Ziemia(6a)

Is there a comment showing confusion about *authoritative*?

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elvis

Not "a comment". There are many such comments which demonstrate lack of understanding the difference between the two terms. It would be tedious to list them all. ABH's gentle heads-up is a kindness.

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katrina_ellen

Mistakenly liked how2girl's comment. I don't agree with nearly anything the big government socialists want. The utopia will never come about because man's unregenerate nature will never allow it.

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Ziemia(6a)

Guess it can't be done.

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queenmargo

katrina_ellen, you can unlike it by just clicking on it again to remove.

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katrina_ellen

Thanks queenmargo, I learn something new everyday.

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queenmargo

#measwell ;))

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