Glad you had a resolution you are happy with. Enjoy your lovely kitchen.

I wish it would let me delete my older post so I could stop getting notifications on this thread!

What's so great about a public forum is there's something for everyone and everyone gets to decide - for themselves - what they want to read.

If something isn't for you, simply delete the notification or scroll on by.

It's not that hard and it's a lot more considerate and polite than assuming you're in a position to essentially tell people to shut up.

I wish it would let me delete my older post so I could stop getting notifications on this thread!

Or you could go to the bottom and

"Click to switch off email notifications about new comments"

It switches off all notifications I think.

The color is fantastic. Pay the man. The other color would have read duller and this one is so much more fun and whoever said more period appropriate, I agree with you.

What style is your home and when was it built? I didn't notice who said "period appropriate," but it really is wonderful! Whoever did the soapstone counter tops did a fantastic job of matching the veining on the horizontal and vertical. I love the 3" backsplash, and that sink and faucet are perfect! It's large enough to work in but not so large to make it inefficient. And of course the blue/green cabinet color is the icing on the cake! You did a GREAT job--enjoy!

Aggie dba Aggie Designs

The color is fantastic. Pay the man. The other color would have read duller and this one is so much more fun and whoever said more period appropriate, I agree with you.

See...that is just more evidence of "everyone has their own preferences".

I much prefer the other color. No question. But glad the OP got this resolved and is happy.

@bry911 This website is better because you are on it. I've never found you abrasive; just smart and practical.

@Diana Bier Interiors, LLC It’s a 1915 Craftsman Chalet. I am in love with the soapstone! They are real pros, especially for my remote, rural area on the southern Oregon coast. The backsplashes are 5” inches, but it’s hard to tell in the photo. They were meant to be 4” but the outlets ended up being a little too high so we extended it to 5. It’s perfect! Thank you for the compliments on my kitchen! I’m very happy with how it turned out. It’s hard to say without having seen the color I requested, but the color might just be a happy accident! It’s very cheerful in contrast to the dark soapstone, and the colors still go well together.

We just had this happen. Ordered cabinets from Affordable cabinets. They made them and asked us to approve the sample. The paint sample wasn't right color so we were asked to pock out the color from Sherwin Williams and we did and sent them a pic of the front and back of the sample card. The cabinets arrive and after 30 minutes I notice it doesn't look black so I get the original paint stick and our cabinets are that color. Sherwin Williams mixed up the wrong paint and our cabinet people didn't notice it. We got a copy of the paint codes and they don't match our color...now we have an unfinished kitchen and are fighting both affordable cabinets and Sherwin wliams

Did they tell u they were using SW paint? Is it written in the contract you wanted BM? We’re you ever shown a sample door ?
I don’t know why cabinet companies do this to customers. A sample door should always be done and show. To the client for them to sign off on the color
So many complaints could be avoided if they’d only do this and be more specific.

Just MHO, but if you approved a swatch, even if it was small, that sets it on you.

However, if you are interested in resolving it and getting the colour you want, you need to talk to your contractor and find out what can be done to get them repainted and how much it will cost. to do so. Then you can have a conversation about who is covering what cost. I'd say you'd be lucky if he agreed to cover any of it.

However, I'm kind of confused by your statement that you didn't notice at first but then say it is not even white. It must be fairly close if it wasn't glaringly obvious when things first went in. Honestly, I'd say this is a good time to make lemonade.

I'm not sure what you are showing in the image you posted. Is this the fandeck that they color matched? Can you post an image that compares it to the actual cabinet color? Using an old fandeck is not a good idea, but color matching between paint brands is not a good idea either.

That's water under the bridge now, so I would try to negotiate a deal with your cabinet company or contractor to select a color that you actually want. If they can only use SW paint, then select one of their paints. If they agree to use BM paint, then make sure that White Dove is actually the color that you want. In either case, get a "strike-off," which is a sample of the paint on the actual door you will be using. I had a client who repainted oak cabinets in BM White Dove and we made sure to get a strike-off before they painted all the cabinets. We were very pleased with the result.

I would argue that if a huge paint company like Sherwin Williams is claiming to match a very popular color by their competitor that the color match should be right. I'm not a white expert- they are. We'll see. I appreciate your input but I'm not ready to give up and make lemonade just yet.

Diana,

Here is the pic that has my cabinet face next to the old swatch. Again, I really appreciate your input.

Unfortunately it's not possible to get an exact match between companies due to technical issues with paint that I'm not qualified to explain. Maybe Lori Sawaya can help on this.

I totally sympathize with you and realize you spent a lot of money on this project. How much extra in labor is he asking for? Can you split the difference? If he's firm on not paying for any of the cost of getting you what you want, then I don't see what recourse you have. You approved the color, so it really is on you. You certainly don't want to get into any sort of litigation, which would probably cost even more money.

The money you already spent is a sunk cost, meaning that it's gone and there's nothing you can do to recoup it. I was in a similar situation with my own kitchen. I chose a gray-ish floor stain but when they put the first coat on I changed my mind. It looked awful. I asked if they could re-stain it and they could, but they had to re-sand it first. It cost me $800 more for them to start over, but that was a small price to pay for getting what I wanted. I love it now and don't miss the $800. So you need to make a decision as to whether the extra money you have to spend is worth not living with a color you will regret every time you enter the kitchen. Or whether you can live with it. It's up to you.

The money part is irritating but it's the principal of this that makes me mad. I know that paint matching isn't a perfect science and I have never used a paint match personally. I do think it's ridiculous that a professional would scan an old swatch to make a paint match of a competitor's color. The fact that my cabinets and paint perfectly match that old swatch can't be a coincidence.

As for litigation, I could just take them to small claims court for the cost of the paint job. The cabinets themselves are great as are my Taj Mahal countertops. Leaving this project as is isn't a possibility. Nobody in their right mind would put green tinted white with this quartzite. It's awful. Furthermore, I can't find a backsplash tile that doesn't clash.

Again thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate it!!

I saw your latest photo after I posted my comment above. With the caveat that it's extremely difficult to discern the nuances of color on computer monitors, it seems to look just like the sample on the fan deck. I'll give you another example from my own kitchen. My cabinets are SW Frosty White, which was one of the standard colors from the manufacturer (Tedd Wood Landmark Series). I always use BM paint and so does my painter. I tried to get a match for the trim and found Snowfall White using an old sample. After the painter finished the two coats, it was WAAAY lighter than Frosty White. I was not happy, but it was my mistake (yes, pros make mistakes too!) so in this instance I chose to live with it. After almost 7 years, it's a non-problem, so I'm glad I didn't spend the money on this issue.

Again, you need to weight the cost/benefit of repainting. But I'll reiterate that if you choose to repaint, make VERY sure that you know what you're getting.

Oh, I'll make sure. 😁 Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it.

Just a few comments... I am not sure if they are going to help you or not.

First, Benjamin Moore doesn't have a decent cabinet coating. Cabinet Coat is a great product for a DIY job, but it doesn't perform well against any of the performance coatings. Additionally, it has a ridiculous recoat and cure time, BM Cabinet Coat (INSLX) has a recoat time of 6 hours, most good cabinet coatings have recoat times around 20 - 30 minutes.

Next, a word on paint. Color names are essentially a paint's physical address, it describes how that color will absorb, reflect, and reemit various light wavelengths. If you take a single picture of a home to a builder and say I want this home, it is highly doubtful you will get it. Likewise, color matches that look the same under one set of lights may not look the same under a different set of lights. It is best to find the painter's line and see if you can find a paint color you like in that line rather than have the color matched. However, here you are.

Stop trying to prove what happened. You noted. "We later determined that the swatch they scanned was an old swatch so when the formula was mixed, it was wrong." That is bad for you. SW is not responsible for ensuring that the BM fan deck stays true over some reasonable period of time, so you probably just removed everyone's negligence in this except for the company that you didn't do business with.

You don't need to know why something happened. You ordered color A, you received a color that is not A. That is the end of the investigation. You shouldn't get hung up in why it happened, you hired professionals to do a job to a certain specification, they either met that specification or didn't. If they did, then you are out of luck, if they didn't then how they resolve the issue is up to them and it may include an investigation or it may not.

We should also note, that if they handed you a painted 4" sample of their White Dove that matches what you got, then you are out of luck. Find a way to enjoy your new color.

Thank you for the comment. Proving what went wrong was for my own sanity and peace of mind.

Yes, a really good lesson for others to see a large sample of what is actually going on cabs before signing off.

You've done due diligence identifying where things went wrong. As bry911 notes, you will drive yourself bonkers continuing to focus on blame. Of course, you can go to small claims, etc. but the fact that you signed off on it after seeing that sample is almost 100% going to mean a no go on that route. My advice is take one last look at the route to failure, then turn around and start figuring out the route to getting a solution you can live with.

Thank you for the input. I appreciate it and I don't mind if it's a little harsh. I have learned so much in the process. I put my question out here because I wanted good solid advice on how to move forward. I can see that my error was trusting a 4 by 4 inch swatch. Looks like I'll have to pay to have these cabinets repainted 🤦‍♀️. Again, thank you!

Good luck @angiem I hope it doesn't cost too much!

Just keep in mind that color names tell you nothing meaningful about a color. They are someone's creative concept of what name will attract buyers. (I knew a designer who once had a job naming colors.) You can call a color "peach" but what does that mean? The skin of a ripe peach? The inside of an unripe peach? the part near the pit? "Light gray" can look more like blue than gray. Ben Moore's "Newburg Green" looks blue. "Frosted Rose" is a muted pink, but roses come in many colors, so how would you know if it's a yellow/pink/red/fuschia/coral rose? And what can we say about "Marilyn's Dress," "Guesthouse," or "Hidden Sanctuary"? (gray, tan, and lavender, respectively). I think you get the idea. The only foolproof way to look at a color is to see it in your room with your light. And also realize that the most difficult colors are the near-neutrals, which you get from adding black, white or gray to a color, and which can morph and change most with changes in light.

Angie, Diana gave you excellent advice.

(and as you've discovered, other companies can't match other colors. Especially BM. I don't know what it is w/their colors/tints, but you will never get exact. your painter should have suggested a SW color that is close to White Dove (like maybe Alabaster )

Personally I find white dove to be dingy, so I would have gone w/Simply White, or SW Pure White.

I don't know if this will help, but what is your lighting? try to get the most neutral daylight bulb you can. about 4000K T. anything higher will have a super cool hue, lower will look pink/yellow.

AND, prime your greenboard on the backsplash. I know from experience the greenish reflection it can have on everything.

And anyone else reading this, ALWAYS get a painted door sample. not a stir stick. a complete door.

Before you spend the money on getting the cabinets re-painted make sure that the other changes you made are not going to influence your decision. I know White Dove is very popular, but I often find it is a bit dingy, not as clean as I like for most applications.

As others have stated, it is almost impossible to get a good color match for whites across brands. If you do absolutely love White Dove you will not get that exact color at Sherwin Williams. Part of this issue is that the bases they use are not identical whites. Beyond that it is difficult to get a really good scan/read on white. If your BM store scanned their own fan deck it would be different than the formula that is in their computer. If you check the gallons used by your painter I bet the formula is different than either of the formulas the guy at the paint store wrote down for you today. They probably won't get the exact same reading if you go back tomorrow.

Easy RGB uses very high quality equipment to measure the colors in various fan decks from different paint manufacturers. They use only brand new, 'mint condition" fan decks sent to them by the paint manufacturers.

Here is a screen shot of the measurements they got for White Dove. Notice that they have 4 different readings from 4 different fan decks and even show that Icicle and Cloud White are closer matches to the OC-17 White Dove in the color preview fan deck than the IntRm White Dove in the same Color Preview fan deck.

The other thing you mentioned is that your sample that you got from BM to test was a different sheen than you had painted on the cabinets. That will make a difference.

Before you decide on the color that you want to paint the cabinets get a quart of the color mixed in the same brand, sheen and product line that you will be using on your cabinets.

I fear that you may not like White Dove as much as you think you do and getting it re-mixed may or may not solve your problem. You mentioned that the cabinet color is green. White Dove can go green next to stronger, cleaner creamy colors. (little touch of yellow and little touch of gray)

See how yellow goes green when you make it more gray?

You may actually want a cleaner white than Dove White.

You ladies are amazing! I appreciate you going above and beyond in your explanations and great advice. I will have to use Sherwin paint to fix this since that is who the supplier was. I will not use white dove again as the last thing I want is another color match! Pure white would have been my number 1 color choice from Sherwin. I honestly never even looked at Sherwin colors as I have white dove on my trim upstairs and I love it. The only other color I considered was Swiss coffee which is also by BM. If I would have realized that my cabinet maker only dealt with Sherwin I would have just used one of their colors. Live and learn I guess. The good thing about this is that I love my cabinetry. It's beautiful and well made. It just stinks that this happened.

I got a copy of my contract with our cabinet maker. I signed off on the color BM white dove OC 17 specifically according to my contract. 😁

I never allow color matching between paint brands. As you found out, especially with whites and grays, they will not look the same. When specifying a color, ALWAYS indicate the brand and finish. Also, be aware I once had a painter who poured cheap paint into a Benjamin Moore can. So when in doubt, ask for the receipts.

"I got a copy of my contract with our cabinet maker. I signed off on the color BM white dove OC 17 specifically according to my contract."

Again, you noted that you were provided a painted sample. If that sample matches the delivered product, then any recovery is going to incredibly difficult and pretty limited.

I am a big fan of Benjamin Moore paints, but so far as I know, they don't have a decent industrial coating. What product specifically was used on your cabinets? I don't think the brand and color specified in the contract is going to carry much weight if they don't make a product that is deemed acceptable for the job.

I cannot imagine allowing a different brand for a color match to a BM paint color that I had selected - not for cabinets, or anything that I considered to be critical. I selected Dec White BM Advance (which IS awesome paint for cabinets and trim) for my cabinets. I never would have considered using anything other that that exact paint.

I totally agree Chessie! I had nothing to do with the process, nor did I realize they were "color matching"! Luckily for me, my contract reads BM OC17 white dove for my cabinet color choice. They didn't use BM and it's not white dove. Hopefully it will get fixed without me taking them to court.

Two conflicting issues
If you want BM color you need to use their paint
BM does not have a good quaIity product for painting cabinets

I know point one is true and I am inclined to believe the knowledgeable people commenting about cabinet coatings are correct

I would compromise on color to get the more suitable product.

I agree Lyndee! I'll use a SW color if I have to stick to SW paint. I would have never guessed white cabinetry could be such a debacle! 😆

"I selected Dec White BM Advance (which IS awesome paint for cabinets and trim) for my cabinets."

BM Advance isn't an awesome paint for cabinets. It has a 16 hour recoat time and a 30 day cure time. Advance is just a waterborne alkyd paint, it performs about like a typical non-yellowing alkyd (oil based paint). If the paint is put on too thick or recoated too early it can take many months to fully harden.

Moreover, it is difficult to spray as it comes out of the can with 400 seconds viscosity, most fine finish sprayers want 120 seconds and waterborne paints have serious limits on thinning, which too many pros just ignore. Really, most of the professionals using BM Advance are not waiting the full recoat time as a waterborne in white will be dry to the touch in 30 minutes and a dark color in 90 minutes. They are just recoating to get the job finished.

Oil based paints are good and durable paints because they always have been. Suspending the alkyd in water has made them safer and fixed a lot of the yellowing problem. However, they pale in comparison to most performance cabinet coatings. Most lacquers, conversion varnishes, single and two part poly's will outperform it and have recoat times in under an hour with full cures in 6 hours. In the end, if it is the best product you can get and they achieve acceptable results with it, then so be it. Chances are it will be fine, but I also wouldn't fault any cabinet maker who refuses to use it.

Cure times matter for professionals because that is how long it takes the product to harden sufficiently to meet its noted performance. Recoat times matter because long recoat times take up time and real estate.

Luckily for me, my contract reads BM OC17 white dove for my cabinet color choice. They didn't use BM and it's not white dove.

You specified BM OC17 White Dove for your cabinet color choice. I don't think your specification of a particular brand's color means they have to use that particular brand only that they have to match that brand's color. Which I understand they didn't do successfully and you can argue that their failure to do so was a breach. They will then argue that your approval of the sample limits your recovery regardless of their breach. My money is on them winning but hey, you named them here and companies don't like being named on the internet so maybe you will get lucky.

I think the only thing that matters is how the contract is worded. Mine is pretty specific. We'll see. Thx for your input!

@User, I think that the cabinet company did what they were supposed to do and you will have a hard time getting any court to rule in your favor.

You specified BM OC17 White Dove for your cabinet color. They had color matched to a BM White Dove fan deck, painted a small sample for you to approve. You approved the color match as acceptable. They proceeded with the job and now you don't like the color.

If you are in a restaurant and order a steak, the waitress comes over and askes if your steak is done to your liking, you say yes, you eat the steak and then complain that the steak was too well done should the restaurant give you the meal for free or offer a gift card for a free meal on your next visit?

You had the opportunity to voice your concern and failed to stop the process before it was complete. That is not the cabinet companies fault or the waitresses fault. They asked, you answered and later decided that you didn't like your own answer. The responsibility for this fail falls squarely on your shoulders.

bry911 - Yep it is. I know it is because that is what I have on mine. They look like brand new, 4 years later. Excellent hard finish. I have talked to many professional painters, and they all have their favorites, but the majority HERE prefer Advance for this type of job. And yes, they do wait the full recoat time. You use what you like and what does a good job for you. I already know what does a good job for me. :-)

Maybe I am misunderstanding something. Did you approve a paint sample that matches what you received?

If you approved a sample then the contract doesn't matter. You have removed their damages even if they breach. All parties in a contract have a duty to the other parties to limit their damages. This duty exists as a matter of law whether or not it is specifically in the contract. If the sample was incorrect you have an affirmative duty to notify them. Any damages will be limited to those that existed and were irreparable at the time of your approval.

If there was no sample or it doesn't match the finished product, then again just stop the investigation. You have stumbled on another thing that makes your case worse.

@Chessie - Just because a product is working well for you, doesn't mean it is a good product. Only between 10 and 15 percent of smokers get lung cancer and yet we generally accept that smoking causes lung cancer. Likewise, a paint that only fails 10% of the time would be considered a bad paint, but for 90% of the people it works great. So far as I know, no waterborne alkyd has ever been approved by the KCMA for cabinet use.

I am intimately familiar with waterborne alkyds, I had the pleasure of working on them for a couple of years and I love them, if it is the best paint you can get on your cabinets then it will probably be fine. However, I would seriously question a fabricator using it.

I am glad to hear it is working great for you though. I will take that as a personal compliment even though all I really did was stick paint in an oven and wait.

No idea what your oven comment means. Like I said - the pro painters here, in my area, do prefer it. I would not hire a fabricator to paint.

Painters are not kitchen cabinet fabricators. A painter may prefer a waterborne alkyd paint for reasons that have nothing to do with its performance on kitchen cabinets.

Cabinet manufacturers aren't painters. The person who posted this problem named a cabinet manufacturer, the manufacturing environment opens up more coatings options. Those coatings are comparable to automotive paints, typically 2k poly's and conversion varnishes, with an occasional lacquer thrown in (all are coatings that have made their way through the auto industry). I don't know of any cabinet manufacturer using BM Advance. It is an inferior product in the manufacture of cabinets.

I don't care what you have on your cabinets but a cabinet manufacturer is not going to use BM Advance just because you believe it is a good product. It is unrealistic and not really helpful to take that position. If you want to demonstrate that it is acceptable, find cabinet manufacturers that use it.

As for the oven comment, when I was in coatings development my job was testing waterborne paint formulas in various conditions, we aged paint by sticking samples in incredibly accurate ovens. I often joke that my first job was watching paint dry.

I was commenting only on my experience with BM and specifically stated PAINTERS. As I said, YOUR EXPERIENCE MAY VARY. I am done.

You were not commenting on your experience with painters and you didn't specifically state painters in your first response...

Here it is, "I cannot imagine allowing a different brand for a color match to a BM paint color that I had selected - not for cabinets, or anything that I considered to be critical. I selected Dec White BM Advance (which IS awesome paint for cabinets and trim) for my cabinets. I never would have considered using anything other that that exact paint."

You didn't specifically state painters, you did specifically state that it is an awesome paint for cabinets. IT ISN'T. It is a great option for DIY.

Eric Reason is the go to guy for cabinet coating testing, take a look at his BM Advance testing video.

Can we please put this to bed now?

LOL. I already did.

Got to love the amazing creativity of these Youtubers!

I think the only thing that matters is how the contract is worded. Mine is pretty specific.

@User true.

And the answer is the same as it was for the OP last year. I see issues like this in my inbox at least a couple times per month; ever since painting cabinets white became popular.

The color difference can be quantified.

Simply measure the color you got and compare to the data for a new color chip. Either from a new fandeck or a large chip ordered from the brand. I'd take 5 measurements across each sample and find an average.

If the difference (Delta E) is less than 1.0, one could argue it's an acceptable color difference industry standard.

If it's greater than a DE of 1.0, it gets harder to call it a "match".

Every cabinet painter/maker should have and know how to use a Spectro 1 Pro and best practices they should be measuring throughout their process.

They shouldn't offer every color of white as an option either. They should nail down two or three colors of white from each brand in the product they use and only offer that range. (( Says me. :) ))

They shouldn't offer every color of white as an option either. They should nail down two or three colors of white from each brand in the product they use and only offer that range. (( Says me. :) ))

And me!

cupofkindnessgw - I found the long dry time to be of no concern. I had a LOT of cabinets to paint so for me, it was not an issue at all. And the finish is very very hard and durable. I used the Satin finish and it is really gorgeous. I don't agree with not using a primer - I used Zinser Bin and would highly recommend that primer. And I never needed mineral spirits to clean my brushes, with this paint. Ever. Only water and soap, no hardening, and I use those brushes still today. Maybe he is using a different kind of brush that I used, I dunno.