CT Hi School Runners Sue To Block Transgender Students From Competing

catkinZ8a

High school runners sue to block transgender students from competing in Connecticut

by Katherine Doyle | February 12, 2020 05:50 PM

The families of three high school cross-country runners are attempting to stop transgender athletes from participating in girls' sports in Connecticut by filing a federal lawsuit one day before the start of the state's indoor track championships.


Students Selina Soule, Chelsea Mitchell, and Alanna Smith say that allowing students with male anatomy to participate in sports against female-born athletes hinders their competitive opportunities. The lawsuit was filed against the Connecticut Association of Schools and the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, which require that students be treated according to the gender with which they identify, in keeping with the state's anti-discrimination law and with local boards of education for Bloomfield, Cromwell, Glastonbury, Canton, and Danbury.


"Mentally and physically, we know the outcome before the race even starts," Smith told the Associated Press on Wednesday. "That biological unfairness doesn’t go away because of what someone believes about gender identity. All girls deserve the chance to compete on a level playing field." Smith is the daughter of former Major League pitcher Lee Smith.


Soule, Mitchell, and Smith are represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative faith-based organization. "Forcing girls to be spectators in their own sports is completely at odds with Title IX, a federal law designed to create equal opportunities for women in education and athletics,” ADF counsel Christiana Holcomb said. "Connecticut’s policy violates that law and reverses nearly 50 years of advances for women."


Last year, the group filed a complaint to the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights on behalf of Soule and two other students whose names were not disclosed at the time, saying that transgender girls had repeatedly won competitive races and that Title IX policy violated federal protections for female athletes.


The plaintiffs have placed behind two transgender sprinters in more than a dozen statewide races since 2017, with Mitchell finishing third in a state track competition last year. "Our dream is not to come in second or third place but to win fair and square," Mitchell said. "All we’re asking for is a fair chance."


The suit is being challenged by the American Civil Liberties Union, which says the measure is "a dangerous distortion of both law and science in the service of excluding trans youth from public life."

Transgender female runner Cece Telfer has argued that the reverse is true, dismissing claims that her male anatomy provides her with an advantage against female-born runners and attributing a handicap to her performance incurred through her medical transition.




https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/high-school-runners-sue-to-block-transgender-students-from-competing-in-connecticut

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eld6161

This is difficult. On the one hand you have to feel for the struggles that occur when one transitions, mentally and physically.

Yet, at the same time I emphasize with the cisgender girls.

How do the transgender athlete rank? Are they always winning?

I don’t know what would be fair. Level the playing finely by testing estrogen levels?

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olliesmom

Not all in life is fair. And, that is just the truth. Not every one wins.

I guess if you are transgender, you don't get everything you want, either. I don't see anyway around it.


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Karen S. (7b, NYC)(NYC, zone 6)

Me either, I just can't see where they're comparable. Different biology & hormones, complicated stuff.

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socks(10a)

That last post is unfair and untrue. Source?

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adoptedbyhounds

That last post is unfair and untrue.

How so?

Democrats support allowing males to compete as females.

What is "untrue" about Democrats wanting this to be legal across America? Do you have a source?


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HU-885118952

I think most anyone with an IQ over 100 understands that this is patently unfair to females. I hope more female athletes bring suit and that this issue goes all the way to SCOTUS.

Girls and women need codified protection.

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Chi

Democrats support allowing males to compete as females.

I'm a Democrat and while I support transgender rights, I don't support that. It's blatantly unfair to biological females. There are undeniable differences in body composition and strength.

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Ann

"It's blatantly unfair to biological females. There are undeniable differences in body composition and strength."

I completely agree!

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foodonastump

Not a dem but what Chi said 100%

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adoptedbyhounds

"That last post is unfair and untrue. Source?"

Socks,

This is the "Equality Act" House Democrats passed. As you can see, it allows males who "identify" as women to compete against females in sports. I don't know why Democrats would want to put female athletes at a disadvantage, but they've taken sides. I would hope Dems don't really think women deserve this kind of treatment, and that they will renounce their previous votes.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/5/text


Here's the roll call vote, Eight Republicans agreed with the "equality" act.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2019/roll217.xml

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margaritadina

I wish these families luck!

What about all other girls who lost to bio males and were robed off their scholarship , etc? Are they getting justice?

''eld6161

How do the transgender athlete rank? Are they always winning?'

''

From what I read on the news, yes, always the first place.

I hear that some male athletes ''come out'' as girls when they realize that they can't really compete with their own. They switch and they win. And take all the benefits that come with the victory.

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margaritadina

Another article about CT dilemma:

''According to ADF legal counsel Christiana Holcomb, two transgender
athletes—Miller and another runner, Andraya Yearwood—

“have amassed 15
different state championship titles that were once held by nine
different girls across the state.”

The US Department of Education’s
office for civil rights is now investigating the group’s complaint.''

https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/

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catkinZ8a

Who's the loser?


Transgender Cyclist Wins Female Cycling World Championship, Claims Only Objections Come from ‘Losers’

By TOBIAS HOONHOUT

October 21, 2019


Cyclist Rachel McKinnon, a biological male who presents as a woman, won the women’s world championship on Saturday, and set a women’s world record in the qualifying event.

McKinnon, a Canadian philosophy professor at the College of Charleston, won the same event in 2018. In a Friday interview with Sky News, McKinnon said that attempts to level the playing field for women’s sports by discriminating against transgender athletes was the equivalent of “denying their human rights.”

“All my medical records say female,” McKinnon said. “My doctor treats me as a female person, my racing license says female, but people who oppose my existence still want to think of me as male . . . So, if we want to say, that I believe you’re a woman for all of society, except for this massive central part that is sport, then that’s not fair.”

Victoria Hood, a former cycling champion and manager of a British all-female cycling team, challenged McKinnon, telling Sky that “it is not complicated, the science is there and it says that it is unfair. The male body, which has been through male puberty, still retains its advantage, that doesn’t go away. I have sympathy with them. They have a right to do sport but not a right to go into any category they want.”

On Saturday, McKinnon issued a press release denouncing Hood for having “an irrational fear of trans women.”

After the victory, McKinnon took to Twitter to challenge critics.

93

Many people claim to support trans women

But often they only support us until our lives impact them in any meaningful way

In my case, people literally say they support trans women…but not in sport

There can be no 'but'

We are either full and equal women, or not

We are.

— Dr. Rachel McKinnon (@rachelvmckinnon) October 20, 2019

On Sunday, McKinnon tweeted “I have yet to meet a real champion who has a problem with trans women. Real champions want stronger competition. If you win because bigotry got your competition banned… you’re a loser.”’

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-cyclist-wins-female-cycling-world-championship-claims-only-objections-come-from-losers/

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I would like to know how estrogen levels affect the performance of trans and cisgender females -- from an unbiased scientific view.

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margaritadina

I am yet to see an athlete who used to be woman compete with normal male athletes. It's always the ones who used to be males competing with normal women.

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adoptedbyhounds

Why? Hormones don’t matter.

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margaritadina

Since when? Since gender is ''a social construct"? Nah.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Muscular and cardiovascular differences are impossible to wish away. Just like many other differences...

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foodonastump

Nancy - It’d be interesting. I’d imagine there’s more to it than just hormones, it would also have to do with at what stage of development the person was when the suppression and/or transition began.

In the binary world we periodically hear of women competing in men’s sports/teams (often fighting to be allowed to) but I’m thinking the opposite is relatively infrequent? In college some dude fought to join the field hockey team but I don’t think he got any play time.

In the case of of TG, I’m thinking it would generally be most fair to compete against men, regardless of which direction they transitioned. We owe our fellow humans latitude with acceptance, but not the the point of medically assisted advantage of this nature.

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margaritadina

''

Jonnygun(zone 7)

Muscular and cardiovascular differences are impossible to wish away. Just like many other differences...
''

Lungs capacity, too.

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

There is one study here from PubMed which shows very little reduction in leg muscle mass in transwomen 1 year after transition. The average loss was 5%. Not a tremendous difference from pre-transition muscle volume when you consider that lower body strength in women is about 25% to 35% less than men.

Upper body strength? Forget about it. Male upper body strength is about 2.5 times greater than that of women.

There is a Swedish study that is currently in peer review that purports to show that transwomen maintain much of their male athletic characteristics even several years after transition. Hopefully it will be released in the near future and we can evaluate the findings.

Unfortunately, there haven't been a lot of good studies yet. Many of the early "studies" were collections of anecdotal testimonies.

In this case, it's hard not to observe that these young "women" don't even have hips. It is rumored that one or both of them is not currently taking any feminizing hormones, but I haven't seen any additional verification of that.

If puberty even starts, biological males will leave women behind in the dust. In athletics, there is no greater advantage than male puberty. It cannot be undone. These students look like they at least started male puberty. Their bodies are configured all wrong for women and their faces don't look feminine at all due to having a heavier male structure, which makes me wonder if they've even started feminizing hormones.

Even the most mediocre male athletes will generally be able to make short work of competing with women.

I don't know if hormones are the entire story. They're a big part, but probably not the only thing in play. I keep thinking about how women have an entire cellular-level interplay going on that men don't have and I have to wonder what role that plays. Of course, men are missing these cellular interactions, so not having them may produce other, different impacts.

I wish I knew more about developmental biology, but it's interesting to me so I try to be somewhat informed about it. And, since I'm into genealogy and genetics as a hobby, I've learned a lot through people who write about genetics and who patiently try to correct our amateur notions on the subject and explain things in understandable terms. I'm grateful that they take the time to do that.

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Chi

The fact of the matter is that even world-class female athletes who dominate their sport cannot compete with men. They are generally not as fast or as strong, and it's just biology.

Remember when Serena Williams, arguably one of the best tennis players of all time, lost to a man ranked 203rd? She said he easily got to shots that she would have won with against other women.

As I said earlier, I'm all for transgender rights but this is an unfair advantage that can change women's competitive sports forever.

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HamiltonGardener

All my medical records say female,” McKinnon said. “My doctor treats me as a female person,


Well, no he doesn’t. You don’t get Pap tests, he doesn’t ask if there is any chance you are pregnant before starting a procedure, or how many children you have or if you have ever had a miscarriage. Your assessments for heart attack are based on common male symptoms, not female. Irregular periods and possible menopause are not discussed.


Your doctor treats you as a male who identifies as or is transitioning to female. That is not the same as being medically treated as a female.

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foodonastump

Wow Sydney Watson seems obsessed. Where is she running into all these TG’s to feel that “everyone” is trying to erase her sex? And what does her phobia have to do with this conversation?

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justerrilynn(10)

My biggest beef is that whenever a high school girl of low income gets knocked out of the top tier by a transgender, it stops her chance of higher education.

Maybe the answer is state sponsored yearly competitions for transgender’s. I doubt most schools could afford a third sports bracket. Or, the transgender’s could train with the females but not compete. They would compete in the state funded transgender competitions. The state competition would include all areas of that state.

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margaritadina

''justerrilynn(10)
Maybe the answer is state sponsored yearly competitions for transgender’s.

''

There will be the same response as with back in a day discussion of transgender bathrooms - the violation of their human rights. And all the names calling, and imbecilic question ''why do you even care?"

With money and scholarships involved majority of these sudden change of opinion on the gender look very suspicious.

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Chi

I don't see why we couldn't have a third sports brackets. As time changes, so do the needs of the population. It wasn't all that long ago that sports were generally only for men, and now we have a complete female bracket for almost all sports.

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justerrilynn(10)

A third bracket would be ideal but how many transgender's are in each school that want to be in sports? Does anyone have any info? To make it a real competition you need people. It still might come down to a big yearly state competition.

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"And what does her phobia have to do with this conversation?"

Yeah, the "erasure" part was over the top. Tone it down, Sydney, whoever you are.

Some of it is about natal men bullying their way into women's spaces to crowd us out - spaces we've worked hard to carve out and build for ourselves, like our own sports.

Just another example in the history of men bullying women. Can't say it's surprising.

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jlhug

The argument against a separate transgender class of athletes is that is will make them separate, not included with the gender they identify with, discriminated against because of the gender they identify with and, in general, make the fact that they are transgender impossible to ignore. IMO, it isn’t fair for transgender men who identify as women to compete with women in athletics. However, I seriously doubt the separate but equal athletics isn’t going to pass.

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Chi

There really isn't a solution to this type of problem that is fair to everyone, unfortunately. Society has to decide whose rights are more important in this case.

This is the only situation I can think of where there is a distinct advantage/disadvantage based on gender identity, and this is one with potential to be exploitable.

And it's only one-sided as no one will really care if a female who identifies as male competes with other males as there's no physical advantage.

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adoptedbyhounds

You nailed it, Chi.

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AnnKH

My biggest beef is that whenever a high school girl of low income gets
knocked out of the top tier by a transgender, it stops her chance of
higher education.

So the only path low income young women have to higher education is through sports scholarships? Are academic scholarships no longer a thing?


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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"So the only path low income young women have to higher education is through sports scholarships? Are academic scholarships no longer a thing?"

I know of schools where the only full scholarships offered by the school itself are those for athletes, especially since extremely bright and/or extremely low income students have other grants and subsidies available.

But it really doesn't matter. I'm dissatisfied when paths to opportunity are removed from women and given to current or former men.

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patriciae_gw(07)

The cultural conflict here is our need to compete is so all consuming that a Transfemale would use the advantages of biology unfairly to achieve something that has no real meaning what so ever if we didn't depend on something as silly as sports to earn the money to send our kids to school in order to get an education.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Margarita, Sports is entertaining. Sports is fun. Sports can be healthy or not depending on how hard you use your body when you do it. Achievements are nice. And having pride in achievements is a good thing though sports achievements have to be fairly low on the scale of important things. The degree to which we encourage our young to devote time to sports can be problematic. It can be maladaptive in a world with very few slots for making an actual living from sports. Using ability at sports to determine who goes to college is truly maladaptive since college is about getting an education. Hitting balls with sticks really well or running faster than other people is a poor way to prepare for informing your mind. The amount of time that needs to be devoted to throwing balls in order to do it well can preclude studying to fill your mind. Sports has its place but I have always believed it has no place in an educational institution and since I as a tax payer am paying for other peoples children to get an education because I see a great need for an educated public means I can object to a segment of the student population spending their time running and jumping instead of reading and studying.

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margaritadina

''patriciae_gw(07) Margarita, Sports is entertaining. Sports is fun.....

''

It truly is unbelievable that you took your time to post what you posted.

This is exactly how women's rights are taken away bit by bit - ''has no real meaning'', ''fairly low on the scale of important things''.

It's a continuation of ''why do you even care'' (who uses a bathroom with you), ''why is it important to you to have a Venus sign on female products ?'' - and now women's sports are ''fairly low on the scale of important things''.

Bit by bit.

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patriciae_gw(07)

To address the idea of well rounded "requiring" sports and athletics, Nonsense.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Jonny, you and I are going to disagree about arrogant.

Who says students don't get to exercise? Who says students have to be sedentary. I certainly wasn't. I biked and walked miles every week. It is the all consuming constant practice of organized sports leaving no time for anything else, classes you cant take because they conflict with scheduled practice or games you have to be in and worse yet having been through the same mill in high school not even being prepared for a minimal college education that I object to. I worked in graduate admissions when I was in college and the saddest people were the coaches from high schools trying to apply for their continuing education classes to keep teacher certification. Some were virtually illiterate, none of them could fill out the forms without help. That they usually had to teach actual academic classes in addition to coaching was unnerving.

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HamiltonGardener

Participating in sports is not just about scholarships.

For years, girls sports have taken a back seat to the boys, like girls aren’t as “important”, go sit and look pretty on the sidelines. Stories abound from women whose sports teams had to take the cast off uniforms from the boys teams, or who had to play or practice on a torn up patch of grass at the side of a school because the boys needed the good field, or maybe they weren’t even offered many sports to play like the boys were.


After spending so long fighting (yet still not quite getting) the recognition that their sports are just as important as the guys, it is not fair to casually dismiss them because, yet again, their sports aren’t important.


You've come a long way, baby. Now get back to where you started.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I am very aware that my point of view is not popular. America is saturated with the idea of the importance of sport over just about anything else. That education is put aside for sport is not sensible. It should be the other way around. I think females buying into the same scenario that males have is not advantageous to females. It is the spreading of a diseased way of thinking. We can make sure deserving young people have a chance at an education without expecting them to entertain us and sacrifice their joints.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Awww, I guess I hurt someone's poor wittle feelings in this thread.


That is one feature of this forum that is just straight broken...

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patriciae_gw(07)

Jonny, who are you sneering at? You aren't making yourself plain as to what on earth you are talking about.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I made, what I though, were strong opinions that did not violate the terms of use here. Specifically my responses to you, including the "arrogance" posts. Now they are gone. I am aware that there is a trend here in which some posters run around flagging posts they dont agree with.


I do not believe you are one of those conniving cowards patriciae.

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Ziemia(6a)

And there are women (identified as female at birth) with atypically high levels of testosterone who compete on female teams.

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olliesmom

The above-mentioned Transgender's are biologically MALE, for goodness sakes!!

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Chi

How common is that, ziemia? I know many women have pcos which can result in higher testosterone but I don't think there's much of an athletic advantage. Quite the opposite as many are overweight and have difficulty maintaining a healthy weight.

I assume you mean more extreme cases like Caster Semenya. I think athletic associations have limited where she is allowed to compete.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Jonny, my response is gone as well but it was Friday and we often get minders attention on Fridays. We are still disagreeing about arrogance.

When they started doing DNA for international athletics a surprising number of extra chromosomal issues were found.

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Ziemia(6a)

Chi - there's currently a female runner who can't compete in the international meets.

Found the case:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/maryanngeorgantopoulos/caster-semenya-testosterone-ruling

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patriciae_gw(07)

If you are going to take Sports seriously (which I obviously do not) at what point do you put limits on genetic advantages? People who are super athletes are because they have physical advantages that no amount of practice would have made me competitive with back in the day.

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