Poll: Capitalism vs. Socialism

HU-885118952

Capitalism versus socialism

Finally, the NBC/WSJ poll finds differing public attitudes about capitalism and socialism, especially with Sanders running for president in 2020 as a democratic socialist.

Fifty-two percent of all voters say they have a positive view of capitalism, versus 18 percent who have a negative opinion.

The numbers are reversed for socialism, with 53 percent having a negative view and 19 percent a positive one.

Yet there’s a striking difference by party and age.

Democratic primary voters have a net-positive impression of socialism (40 percent positive, 23 percent negative), and Dem voters ages 18-34 view it even more favorably (51 percent to 14 percent).

But key general-election groups like independents (-45 net rating), suburban voters and swing-state voters have a much more negative impression of socialism.

The NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll was conducted Jan. 26-29 of 1,000 registered voters — more than half of whom were reached by cell phone — and it has an overall margin of error of plus-minus 3.1 percentage points.


Garry Kasparov✔@Kasparov63Reports of the death of American common sense are greatly exaggerated. 19% still too high. https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/status/1223971036867239936 …
Mark Murray✔@mmurraypoliticsThe NBC/WSJ poll also looks at views of capitalism and socialism:

Capitalism: 52% positive, 18% negative (+34)

Socialism: 19% positive, 53% negative (-34)

Jan 26-29, reg voters, MOE +/- 3.1% https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-wsj-poll-country-remains-divided-over-trump-s-impeachment-n1128326 …5519:20 AM - Feb 2, 2020Twitter Ads info and privacy

217 people are talking about this

I know...but...Bernie's not a socialist. Here, let me share his gaslighting talking points!




" If you're born in capitalist America, racist America, fascist America, then you're born in sin. But if you're born in socialism, you're not born in sin."

~Jim Jones


Don't be fooled. We know what socialism is and what it looks like. Modifying the word "socialism" with the word "Democratic" is like modifying "pregnant" with "a little bit".

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Chi

None of the Dem candidates support true Socialism. No one has ever suggested an end to private ownership. It's good that a lot of people don't like or want socialism - I don't either.

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HU-885118952

Search Results

Featured snippet from the web

In 1976 Sanders advocated for public ownership of utilities, banks and major industries. He advocated for the conversion of manufacturing industries into worker-controlled enterprises and the placement of restrictions on the abilities of companies to abandon communities where they are established.

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Political_positions_of_Bernie_Sanders

Political positions of Bernie Sanders - Wikipedia



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HU-885118952

Bernie is a true ideologue who has not changed one bit. He's still in love with communism and the socialist ways of Cuba and Venezuela.

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ubro(2a)

Don't be fooled. We know what socialism is and what it looks like. Modifying the word "socialism" with the word "Democratic" is like modifying "pregnant" with "a little bit".


The socialism the right pedals is a fear based view that does not take into account the wonderful countries in the world that manage to balance socialistic laws and policies within their govt. framework.

As always the Right only sees the world in black and white or all or nothing extremes.

Time to get out of the bubble and look around you at a world full of wonderful ideas that are not solely based on the RW 'me first' or 'money first' capitalistic point of view. Countries that function well do both.

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HU-885118952

Spoken like a true open-borders globalist.

Don't be fooled, folks. There is no magical kind of socialism that won't turn us into Venezuela in a generation, and those countries they always point to as examples?

Not. Socialist. Countries.

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Chi

It's just their fear-mongering with a new buzzword. People who understand what Socialism actually is can understand the differences between it and what the Dem candidates support.

The idea of everyone having healthcare, of billionaires paying their fair share of taxes, of college being affordable without massive debt...these ideas are so scary to Republicans that they are trying everything they can to vilify these ideas and call them scary words that aren't true.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

In 1976 Sanders advocated for public ownership of utilities

The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power is municipally owned. The bankrupt Pacific Gas and Electric in Northern California may eventually be run by a cooperative of its customers.

*

https://coloradosun.com/2018/11/26/city-owned-utilities-colorado/

Of the six communities — from Burlington, Vermont, to Kodiak, Alaska — to reach the 100-percent renewable electricity target, five of them, including Aspen, are municipal utilities. The sixth is a rural electric cooperative.

*

The Bank of North Dakota is owned by the state.

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Chi

"In 1976..."

If you have to go back 44 years to find a "socialist" example, I guess he's not really much of a socialist!

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ubro(2a)

Spoken like a true open-borders globalist.

I don't even know whether that is meant as a compliment or an insult? Nor does it even make sense.

But keep on thinking that heaven forbid should you put in any social programs that now you are on the path to true socialism, a larger load of bunk I have not heard before.

If you don't believe in socialistic programs why is Trump bailing out the farmers to mitigate his foolish tariff war? I would think that something like that would bother a RW person.

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Chi

"Not. Socialist. Countries."

So which Dem platforms are the socialist ones then? What do they support that will make the US socialist but not these other countries?

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patriciae_gw(07)

We have talked the difference between how socialism is being presented here by fear mongers and the reality of what socialism is in the world to death. Saying all those successful countries that have socialism are not socialist because it doesn't fit the narrative of socialism is totalitarian communism hasn't made a dent in those who live to obfuscate. Why anyone would be frightened of sharing is more than I can understand. Those people are not afraid of untrammeled Capitalism as they watch the capitalists take a bigger and bigger share of the profits made by the American workforce. They are getting richer and richer to the point of fabulousness-fantasy. Not scary?

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Chi

The wealthy of this country have done a remarkable job at brainwashing many into believing that things that would make their life better are so terrible. The reality is that the wealthy like having so many tax breaks. Remember billionaire Trump bragging about how smart he is for not paying any taxes?

I have faith the youth of the country won't be so easily tricked and we can finally become a modern, progressive country.

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HU-885118952

If you don't believe in socialistic programs...


Gonna stop ya right there. I never said that.

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ubro(2a)

Not. Socialist. Countries.

Exactly, so your idea that somehow should the Dems get elected that then ultimately the US will become a true socialist country is IMO far fetched.

The US has way too far to go to get to that final end, you will just fall in line with those' Not. Socialist. Countries' and be no scarier than the rest of us are.

Don't be fooled, folks. There is no magical kind of socialism that won't turn us into Venezuela in a generation, and those countries they always point to as examples?

Assuming that somehow Venezuela is the only final end or option is, as we mentioned before, nothing but fear mongering. You could end up more like Australia or Britain, to name a few, that outcome is more likely.

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Chi

Yeah I really don't understand their logic. The Dem platforms support programs we see in many other countries that the right admits are not socialist countries. So why do they think by adapting the very same platforms, the US will become Socialist?

Other than a scare tactic, of course. You'd think the real life examples of dozens of other countries would mean more than the make-believe projections.

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ubro(2a)

Gonna stop ya right there. I never said that.

I apologize, you are right. Your slamming of socialism lead me to believe that you do not like govt. interference or govt. run programs aimed to help those in need.

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Kathy

I think this describes US capitalism.


Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich said America is a hotbed for socialism, but for the rich and not the poor.

"It's socialism for the rich. Everyone else is treated to harsh capitalism," he said.

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HU-885118952

To paraphrase Churchill, "The problem with capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth. The problem with socialism is the equal distribution of misery." We all know that capitalism isn't perfect. It just beats every other option by a mile!

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

We all know that capitalism isn't perfect. It just beats every other option by a mile!

I prefer government-run fire departments, and emergency medical services.

Same for air-traffic controllers. And what about FEMA?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Capitalism is great as long as you are rich. You have to have capital to enjoy capitalism. Since most people have no capital socialism seems to be a better fit for happiness. Share your small resources and next thing you know a bunch of people have a bridge. In capitalism you are going to have to pay to drive over someone's bridge and since there are no other options you will have to pay what ever they ask because no one gets to tell a capitalist what they can or cant charge.

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queenmargo

Patriciae- with your theory, we should all give up our houses, and life long savings, and turn it over to the government to distribute. We can then all go live in tent cities and under those bridges that have been built with our money. OH, the happiness!

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Chi

HU-885, I am genuinely interested in which policies you think would make the US socialist? It seems to me that all of them that I've heard are practiced in countries that are not socialist. Curious what you think the difference is.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

we should all give up our houses, and life long savings, and turn it over to the government to distribute.

Patriciae said nothing of the kind.

Has anyone ever turned over all their money to have the government build infrastructure?

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queenmargo

Well, I assume people would want to put their money where their mouth is. If you advocate this shared happiness, don't just talk the talk, walk the walk.

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queenmargo

Dems like to come across so giving and caring, as long as it is someone else's money.

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queenmargo

nancy- how many people have you invited in your home from the tent cities?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Margo, we already pool our money for bridges or haven't you noticed? When you drive over a bridge you are celebrating socialism of bridges or do you stay on your side of the river? Did someone come for your savings other than the people who want to give more of it to the rich? Schools are a sample of socialism. Did you go to school? I did. Our combined tax dollars pay for education. The advantage of Social Democracy is that we combine our small contributions and use it for everyone. If you could make uber rich people (and remember rich people ((capitalists)) don't produce anything, you produce it and they get 99% of the profit) pay a similar small to them part of their income and we would be swimming in money-or not as we would have a bridge for that.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

people would want to put their money where their mouth is

That is what paying taxes is -- supporting government services such as roads and bridges, fire departments, libraries, the military, etc.

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Chi

When she said "Share your small resources" I read it as tax money, which we will have more of when we get rid of the ridiculous corporate tax rate and some of the loopholes allowing billionaires to pay nothing.

That is not at all the same as requiring everyone to give up all their money. Which do not something I have ever heard suggested outside of conservative fantasies.

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queenmargo

Yes, I know all about taxes. Lots of crazy taxes. I pay for a "free" Zoo here in Saint Louis. We all pay for outsiders to come to this zoo and pay ZERO admission. I am the lucky one who gets to pay for this "free" zoo in my yearly taxes.

Dems love taxes.

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Chi

Well, my tax money is currently paying for Trump to host a Superbowl party for his club members. We are the lucky ones who get to line his pockets with our tax money while he profits from the presidency.

I would much rather pay for a zoo.

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queenmargo

Yeah, yeah, how many trips did Obama take?


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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

We all pay for outsiders to come to this zoo and pay ZERO admission.

This is called tourism promotion, and outsiders spend when visiting St Louis, boosting the local economy.

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Ann

I saw this capitalism/socialism poll result earlier today. LOL!

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patriciae_gw(07)

LOL indeed. So add to the conversation Ann. what do you find so amusing?

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numbersjunkie

This is a false choice. The right answer is somewhere in between. We all know socialism is perceived as a dirty word, but most people don't even know what it means. It's used as a weapon, and when it's used in that manner, I lose all respect for the person doing it.

I believe in capitalism, but not unchecked capitalism which is the path we're on. I don't think money is the only thing that matters, or that it should be a winner take all game.

Reasonable people understand that things are never black or white - there are always shades of gray. I think the American people are being cut out of the economy they helped to build. Employers used to care about their employees. Now, the employers are often huge corporations in far off cities who view their employees as line items on a payroll sheet. There is no humanity in their decision making. Workers are disposable.

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Ann

P, what I find so amusing is the big difference in positive vs negative views. My goodness, that is not a small difference. Those polled really gave us a feel for how they view one vs the other.

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Ann

Numbers, nothing about that poll told us the right answer is somewhere in between!!!

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

A lovely day in the Commie/Socialist paradise in the Southern Ocean.

It rained cats and dogs yesterday and my rainwater tank is nearly full.

In this modern country, that is 2000 litres of water. Yay!

Seriously, my wife's free annual eye check up was cancelled this morning because the clinic got flooded.

Free annual eye check for non pensioners = Socialism. Had one of those a few years ago and the lovely eye lady told me that I was to go an eye clinic NOW, she had booked me in.

I suggest that HU whatever goes to google and looks up the dozen or so happiest countries in the world and stops deluding people with the S word rubbish.

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Nana H

By some peoples definition of " socialism" Medicare is a socialistic programme. One most are happy to be part of.

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numbersjunkie

Ann, if you don't get it I can't help you. It was a stupid poll, not intended to accomplish anything except fuel the flames of division. Anyone who thinks it's a simple either/or question is simple minded.

Think back to when you were in school. This is the type of question you might have been asked as an essay question, not as a multiple choice question. A good grade would be earned by demonstrating an ability to use independent thought and analysis.

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catkinZ8a

COMPARISON CAPITALISM/SOCIALISM

Meaning

Capitalism refers to the economic system prevalent in the country, where there is private or corporate ownership on the trade and industry.

The economic structure in which the government has ownership and control over the economic activities of the country is known as Socialism.

Basis

(C) Principle of Individual Rights

(S) Principle of Equality


Advocates

(C) Innovation and individual goals

(S) Equality and fairness in society


Means of Production

(C) Privately owned

(S) Socially owned

(C) PricesDetermined by the market forces

(S) Determined by the Government

(C) CompetitionVery High

(S) No competition exists between firms


Degree of distinction in the class of people

(C)High

(S) Low


Wealth

(C) Each individual works for the creation of his own wealth

(S) Equally shared by all the people of the country


Religion

(C) Freedom to follow any religion

(S) Freedom to follow any religion but it encourages secularism


Efficiency

(C) Much

(S) Less


Governmental Interference

(C) No or marginal

(S) Government decides everything


https://keydifferences.com/difference-between-capitalism-and-socialism.html

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elvis

Your slamming of socialism lead me to believe that you do not like govt. interference or govt. run programs aimed to help those in need.

With all due respect, ubro, no one can lead you to believe anything. You're too smart for that.

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elvis

Surprise! The Government is YOU. NOT SPACE ALIENS.

Oh, good. One less thing. Thanks for the heads-up, patriciae.

__________

Kathy

I think this describes US capitalism.
Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich said America is a hotbed for socialism, but for the rich and not the poor. "It's socialism for the rich. Everyone else is treated to harsh capitalism," he said.

Of course you do.

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Chi

catkin, which Dem candidates have proposed any of the socialist policies from your list? I'd certainly like to hear them.

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Tilly Teabag

Anyone who calls themselves a Christian, or Jew, or Muslim, plus some other religions, have to share, or stop calling themselves such. Jesus commanded us to share, so does the Old Testament.

There is a very long list of types of socialism. They are quite defined:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_socialism

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how2girl

If it’s so much of an either/or debate let’s discuss what the opposite of a Socialist government is?

Of course it’s Fascism, which can be considered the opposite of socialism if you examine the rhetorical priorities. Then there’s Anarchism, which is the opposite of any political ideology that believes in government.


But clearly it’s not an either/or scenario, if you want it that way then let’s throw extremism into the mix. There are many shades of grey to be entertained in the debate. Get some perspective.

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queenmargo


matthias_lang

Margo, my tax money helped pay for that wall (you provided a photo in another thread) that protects your private garden. And you actually fought for that. Fought for the public to build an enhancement of your property. How does that square with your unwillingness to pay taxes for public projects such as a zoo?

matthias_lang- believe it or not, we ( the neighbors) on this street that fought for the wall, offered to pay for the wall ourselves. When MODOT had to provide a sunshine letter of who qualified for a wall, we fell into the parameter of those who have received walls when the highway had been widened in their areas.

I may not be happy about that Zoo tax, but I HAVE and continue to pay for it.

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queenmargo

This is called tourism promotion, and outsiders spend when visiting St Louis, boosting the local economy.

I lived in California 25 years and never paid for this tourism promotion of which you speak Nancy. Disneyland offered a reduced rate for instate residents, but not on our taxes. What tourism promotion do you pay for with your taxes?

Not many people would plan a trip to Saint Louis to go to the zoo. That is something that they would probably go to because they found out it is free once they are here. If you are an avid zoo goer that is something you would pay for regardless if that is your interest.

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Chi

I just wish for once that someone on the right could give specific answers to what is "Socialist" about the Dem platforms, and how adopting their ideas will turn us into a socialist country. I would sincerely like to have a conversation about it. Anyone??

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patriciae_gw(07)

Socialist is a word like Elitist. It means what people mean it to mean. That is in fact what any word means. What people mean it to mean. If the word Insipid can completely change its meaning to mean something entirely different then Socialist can mean something somewhat different from what people think it means. As I said before, why fear sharing? Have you never learned the joys of sharing?

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Rina

They go because it's free, they enjoy it and it adds to their opinion that St Louis is a fine place to visit -- a viewpoint they share with others, who are then encouraged to try a trip to St Louis. That is how that side of it works.

Also, free zoos are a great idea as they provide access to an educational experience for the children of the community, regardless of whether they come from rich or poor backgrounds. I'd be happy for some of my taxes to be used for that purpose.

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Chi

It seems the same as paying for park upkeep to me, except there's the bonus of also (hopefully) helping animals and providing education.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I lived in California 25 years and never paid for this tourism promotion of which you speak Nancy.

Yes, you did.

Monies from California income taxes are used to promote business in California, including tourism.

Disneyland offered a reduced rate for instate residents, but not on our taxes. What tourism promotion do you pay for with your taxes?

If you think that Disneyland is the only attraction that California has to offer, you are very mistaken.

Governors, past and present, court tourism from foreign visitors. Beaches, the dramatic coastline, mountains, deserts, cities/areas such as SF, LA, Malibu, and of course, Hollywood draw hordes of tourists each year. Taxpayer funds go to maintain and improve these areas and the infrastructure surrounding them.

Including the Los Angeles Zoo (and Griffith Park).



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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Lol Socialist care about power like every other politician everywhere. Dont be deluded by grandiose claims of helping the "less fortunate"...


All socialist countries are weak and NATO(US) dependant. Not a single Socialist country is able to guarantee their own freedoms.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I haven't read this whole thread...but wondering what the poll results would be if, in order to answer, you had to correctly define both capitalism and socialism first....

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Current Resident(z4 WI)

Ridiculous - I totally reject the false dichotomy presented here.

ALL western nations eg representative democracies.... even the ones calling themselves "socialist" democracies.... have some form of moderated, regulated capitalism and some degree of social programs (some with more, some with less) to soften the harsh edges of unregulated capitalism, which is prone to extreme boom- bust cycles that wealthy people can comfortably ride out, but other people cant.

Ask these same people who answered the survey whether they want to give up their "socialist" social security, national parks, national defense, fire and police protection, roads, workers comp, public schools, research & development that came out of space program, national weather service, rural electrification, etc. etc. etc. and see what they say.


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tryingtounderstand

Those who fear socialism, obviously have never travelled to foreign socialist countries such as Canada, Britain, France, Australia. If you do encounter foreigners from these lands, please take the time to explain the differences between their society and that of the USA.

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tryingtounderstand

Re socialism, how many of Hot Topic forumites live in communities with HOA? Until we relocated to the USA, I had never heard of them. Couldn’t wait to leave, couldn’t stand being told when to take down Xmas lights, put trash bins away, on and on. It’s amazing to me that so many of my neighbours, strong republicans would tolerate such strong dictatorship by their HOA leaders. Talk about govt interference!

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margaritadina

''patriciae_gw(07) socialism is
totalitarian communism''

What in the world is a ''totalitarian communism''?

''patriciae_gw(07) Schools are a
sample of socialism. Did you go to school? I did. Our combined tax
dollars pay for education. The advantage of Social Democracy is that we
combine our small contributions and use it for everyone.''

Schools are by no means a sample of socialism. Schools are a sample of highly organized society to care about the future of the country.

There will be no SMALL contributions. You can forget about it right now. The factory worker in USSR worked 8 min per day for themselves, and 7 hrs 52 min for the gov.



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ubro(2a)

There will be no SMALL contributions. You can forget about it right now. The factory worker in USSR worked 8 min per day for themselves, and 7 hrs 52 min for the gov.

Now compare that to how the 'partialy' socialistic countries work.

The right is bent on only examples of extremes. Any extreme either socialism, or capitalism is fraught with horrible consequences.

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queenmargo

I am re-posting this as I thought I noticed it gone last night or it never posted, and matthais_ lang never responded. If it is a repeat, sorry.

matthias_lang

Margo, my tax money helped pay for that wall (you provided a photo in another thread) that protects your private garden. And you actually fought for that. Fought for the public to build an enhancement of your property. How does that square with your unwillingness to pay taxes for public projects such as a zoo?

matthias_lang- believe it or not, we ( the neighbors) on this street that fought for the wall, offered to pay for the wall ourselves. When MODOT had to provide a sunshine letter of who qualified for a wall, we fell into the parameter of those who have received walls when the highway had been widened in their areas.

I may not be happy about that Zoo tax, but I HAVE and continue to pay for it.

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patriciae_gw(07)

"Schools are by no means a sample of socialism. Schools are a sample of highly organized society to care about the future of the country."

That Margarita is socialism. A highly organized society taking care of the present and future of a country.

A Constitutional Originalist believes that nothing that isn't specifically mentioned in the text of the Constitution cant be done by government . They do no support the interpretation of promote the general welfare as cart blanc to write laws that supply services to the general public like schools, roads, those famous bridges and supports for Zoos. No Social (interesting word) Security or Medicare. No banking laws or environmental protections nor a CDC or laws about how much bird feces is allowed in your peanut butter. It would be up to your state to do these things and since only a few of our states are self supporting we would have a mixture of rich and poor states. So be it? Socialism spreads the wealth around already.

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ubro(2a)

"Schools are by no means a sample of socialism. Schools are a sample of highly organized society to care about the future of the country."

That Margarita is socialism. A highly organized society taking care of the present and future of a country.

Bingo! The same can be said of a society that is willing to use their collective taxes to support select groups of people which would, if allowed to fail, be detrimental to the financial welfare of the entire society. For example, money to farmers in times of low prices or environmental disasters.

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matthias_lang

Congratulations, queenmargo, on having the Federal Highway Administration on your side insisting that the noise level study be done. This means you had both the Missouri Department of Transportation and the US federal government working for your and your neighbors' hearing health. Environmental protections are a good thing, eh?

I certainly commiserate with you on having highway noises in your ears. I, too, lived alongside a highway, ironically, directly opposite the ZOO. On behalf of my now grown child, thank you for your participation in supporting the zoo through your taxes. (I understand your objection is that someone who does not pay taxes for the zoo nonetheless gets to visit the zoo without an admission fee.) He went there sometimes twice a day, coming home for lunch and going back re-charged. His favorites were the Malayan sun bears, the red pandas, and the prairie dogs....There's the tiniest chance you may have seen him on a local news broadcast with his tiny plastic beach shovel one day in a heavy snow fall, trying to clear the sidewalk on the Tamm Ave overpass because, "people might need to get to the zoo." Such earnest public spirit.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

Taxes! The oil of civilisation! Wonder who said that?

Having breakfast before heading off to Little Augusta Golf Course. (joke)

Costs of playing the round.

Green Fees

Hire a cart

Liquid Refreshments + light lunch at the 19th hole

All subject to the Australia Wide Goods and Services Tax which helps pay for "universal health care".

Of course there are Scrooges everywhere, who still have their first dollar. At the golf club they are called Car Park Members, play their round and never go to the 19th hole.

*Minor edit

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Wow, Arthur, good for you! I bet you tip pretty good too! Is this relating to capitalism, or socialism?

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adoptedbyhounds

How will government go about acquiring the means of production?

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Generally done by nationalizing industry in socialist countries. But, hey, it's a spectrum...

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

Re . my post above, It is relating the prevalence of scrooges in the community. As for tipping, on visits to wacky and wonderful I always remembered "When in Rome".

What did it relate to? A modern economy with Universal Health Care and how it is partly funded.


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Kathy

Then there are kickbacks from Corps so regulations will be rolled back. That’s not capitalism. That is fascism. Lobbyists are buying our legislators.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Cool Arthur, thanks. How are you liking that Universal Health Care? Seems like Australia is struggling just like the rest of us with increasing costs and longer and longer waits for surgery. All of that with a staggering population somewhere between Florida and Texas. Color me underwhelmed.



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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Wow Kathy, do you really think polititians sell out to lobbyists? How else do you expect them to leave politics as millionaires?

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margaritadina

''patriciae_gw(07)

"Schools
are by no means a sample of socialism. Schools are a sample of highly
organized society to care about the future of the country."

That Margarita is socialism. A highly organized society taking care of the present and future of a country.''

patriciae, seriously, stop embarrassing yourself. Get Das Kapital to sort out potatoes that you mash in the same bowl. You really need it after posting about schools and ''totalitarian communism''. You didn't answer what ''totalitarian communism'' means to you but I am taken the question down, I don't want to see the answer.

You know what your problem is? You mistaken a concept of humans been social creatures able to organize their society, and Socialism - the totalitarian governing system that needed to be called something and got it as ''socialism''.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Generally done by nationalizing industry in socialist countries. But, hey, it's a spectrum..."

Why is that?

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Kathy

Membership ship is $450,000.



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elvis

tryingtounderstand

Re socialism, how many of Hot Topic forumites live in communities with HOA? Until we relocated to the USA, I had never heard of them. Couldn’t wait to leave, couldn’t stand being told when to take down Xmas lights, put trash bins away, on and on.

Well, I don't live in an HOA community.

That said, you chose to live in an HOA community, and you chose to leave it. In a country with a socialist government, what do you do? Leave the country? Oh, wait...

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elvis

Kathy

Membership ship is $450,000.

So if you want to join the club club, pay up.

The 3.4 million is for what, exactly? Please be specific.

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elvis

Any extreme either socialism, or capitalism is fraught with horrible consequences.

Ubro, please give us examples of a country wherein extreme capitalism is fraught with horrible consequences. Thanks.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

How about the Philippines?

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Kathy

It cost taxpayers 3.4 million for Trump to put on and attend his party. Every trip to MaraLago costs taxpayers 3.4 M.

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pls8xx

Capitalism is the fuel that prosperity runs on. Socialism provides the guardrails that keeps Capitalism from wrecking. Capitalism is a surefooted way forward, but it can be too slow in an emergency like Katrina. Compare our Katrina response to China building a 1000 bed hospital in ten days to handle the coronavirus.

NBCNEWS-hospital-built-10-days


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queenmargo

(I understand your objection is that someone who does not pay taxes for the zoo nonetheless gets to visit the zoo without an admission fee.)

Yes, that is my objection matthias_lang. I imagine you paid/pay the zoo tax as well. I don't know if you are still living in Saint Louis. I am glad your child got such good use of your/my/others tax dollar.

Now don't get me started on Kirkwood School taxes, lol.

If you do live here, how do you feel about the city trying to merge with the county?

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adoptedbyhounds

" I haven't read this whole thread...but wondering what the poll results would be if, in order to answer, you had to correctly define both capitalism and socialism first...."

Good point, Annie. If you can "correctly define both capitalism and socialism" it would be so very helpful if you would do so for all of us here. That way we will all be better prepared to discuss each system, using the "correct definitions."

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elvis

Kathy

It cost taxpayers 3.4 million for Trump to put on and attend his party. Every trip to MaraLago costs taxpayers 3.4 M.

Yes, so you have repeatedly written. That doesn't answer my question, and of course, no one actually expects you to, but do expect to be asked about unsubstantiated claims you make here. What does the 3.4 million pay for? Careful, an accurate answer would involve research and citing of sources on your part!

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shaxhome(Frog Rock, Australia 9b)

"Ubro, please give us examples of a country wherein extreme capitalism is fraught with horrible consequences. Thanks."

I'm not Ubro, but that's an easy one.

The USA.

"Horrible consequences"? That moronic president some of you elected.

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Del Phinium

tryingtounderstand

"...couldn’t stand being told when to take down Xmas lights, put trash bins away, on and on. It’s amazing to me that so many of my neighbours, strong republicans would tolerate such strong dictatorship by their HOA leaders. Talk about govt interference!"


That sounds horrible! Was that a consequence of the contract that you voluntarily signed, in order to voluntarily move into the house, that you voluntarily purchased? Sounds exactly like a dictatorship to me too. Textbook definition probably. "Talk about govt interference" is right!

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ubro(2a)

Ubro, please give us examples of a country wherein extreme capitalism is fraught with horrible consequences. Thanks.

I agree with Shaxhome

Canadians died because of his foolhardy actions, Kurds died because of his foolhardy actions, a man was hacked to pieces and Trump still seems to bow to MBS, Ukrainians, your allies, were left hanging for a silly self centred man's personal vendetta. Foreign powers are actually interfering in your elections, the heart and soul of your democracy, but hey, it's all good, the economy is roaring. That type of capitalism I can do without.

I was making the point that any belief, taken to the extreme is not healthy and that includes capitalism.

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Kathy

Elvis, obviously you don’t realize what it costs taxpayers to fly Trump and his entourage to Mar-A-Lago or what it costs for the SS to rent golf carts to follow him around. Maybe you are the one who needs to do some research before you accuse me of making false claims.

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Chi

Good article on Sanders and what being a Social Democrat/Democratic Socialist actually means. Anyone who thinks he's a communist should read this.

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialist-not-communist-heres-difference-1485478

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Del Phinium


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elvis

Kathy

Elvis, obviously you don’t realize what it costs taxpayers to fly Trump and his entourage to Mar-A-Lago or what it costs for the SS to rent golf carts to follow him around

Oh, good. You looked it up. Kudos!

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numbersjunkie

Here's the article on the cost of Trump's Superbowl trip and party.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5e3734edc5b611ac94d6b545

Apparently we've paid over $300 million to date for his trips to his own properties, so he can play golf and schmooz with his rich buddies and foreign influence peddlers.

I read somewhere that they triple the rates before his visits. We pay the increased rates for lodging all the Secret service and aides. Plus the cost of food and such.

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elvis

numbersjunkie

Here's the article on the cost of Trump's Superbowl trip and party.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5e3734edc5b611ac94d6b545

Apparently we've paid over $300 million to date for his trips to his own properties, so he can play golf and schmooz with his rich buddies and foreign influence peddlers.

I read somewhere that they triple the rates before his visits. We pay the increased rates for lodging all the Secret service and aides. Plus the cost of food and such.

You read that "somewhere"? Gee, sounds like a sure thing, then. Why not just post that unverified claim on the internet?

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Chi

I remember when he said he would be too busy working for us to ever golf. Another big whopper of a lie!

I'm torn between being irritated that my tax dollars are paying for Trump to party and line his pockets, and being relieved that he's distracted from doing even more harm to the country.

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numbersjunkie

Elvis, did I say it was a sure thing? I was honest that it was a story I recalled seeing. Turns out it was about the Republican retreat they hiked the rates for. Still a disgrace as he is violating the emoluments clause by financially benefiting from his position. And I'd be surprised if the same kind of rate hikes weren't happening at Mar a lago too when he's there. Payment for access.

www.newsweek.com/trumps-dc-hotel-room-rates-nearly-three-times-higher-during-republican-two-day-retreat-watchdog-1468271?

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Kathy

Trump has taken the term grifter to a new level.

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Current Resident(z4 WI)

Let's reframe this survey, to be more in line with what the actual choices are at this time in history.

How many of y'all favor plutocracy, oligarchy, kleptocracy, corporatocracy.... whatever you want to call a system where all power and wealth is consolidated more and more into a very few hands.

VS. good old fashioned American representative democracy..... ?

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

"VS. good old fashioned American representative democracy..... ?"

Yes, indeed. A pretty good effort for 1789. Year might be wrong!

The Australian Constitution is much younger, 2001, some borrowed bits there from the USA re. the Senate because we needed to create a copy of the "House of Lords" as a house of review.

Seeing this is a survey, what is the turnoff rate caused by the never ending politics in the USA. In other words how many people actually vote?

+++++typo 2001 should be 1901.

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HamiltonGardener

Just want to point out that there is a difference between a socialist country, and a country which has some social programs.



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margaritadina

/\/\and this difference is socialism vs capitalism.

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Kathy

US is not a totally capitalist country. We give tax breaks and subsidies to corps. Isn’t that socialism? Republicans are just as guilty of socialism only theirs goes to the top. The bottom gets trickle down.

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Ann

I think HG has a point in their most recent comment and I also think mararitadina has a point in their most recent comment.

The more government "social'' programs implemented, the bigger the government grows, and the more toward or into socialism a country heads.

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Kathy

There is worse alternatives than social policies to benefit citizens of a country. We could venture into policy where Corps write the laws and lawmakers pass them because they are rewarded for doing so. Oh wait—-

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The more government "social'' programs implemented, the bigger the government grows

Why is this argument never made against the Pentagon and the military-industrial-intelligence complex?

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HamiltonGardener

Something that fascinates me about Portugal are all the old buildings and houses. We see the beautiful restored houses in the travel blogs, but the reality is that most of the city housing is crumbling and decrepit. It’s quite sad to see.


For a long time, the Portuguese government has been socialist. Up until the EU forced the government to accept outside investment, landlords were under strict rent controls that did not allow the conditions to repair or improve properties. Housing crumbled and people had to live in buildings that leaked and broke and even collapsed.


When the EU bailed out Portugal during the financial crisis, one of the conditions was to suspend the rent control and allow outside investment.


What I see now are building being bought up and restored to beautiful buildings. Uninhabitable houses are now in wonderful condition.


On the downside, many inhabitants are complaining the houses are too expensive, and many buildings are restored to be used as hotels for tourists (I am staying in one of those right now)


So....socialism vs capitalism. Both have upsides and downsides, and neither is sustainable in its purest form.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

"The more government "social'' programs implemented, the bigger the government grows, and the more toward or into socialism a country heads."

That statement might have been true pre. Modern Computer Systems.


If you are talking about a system like medicare in Australia, most of the day to day stuff is handled by the great big medicare computer. I go to the doctor of my choice for a consult..

Pay his receptionist $A70 Via Visa

Receptionist enters details in to the great big medicare computer system.

Next day a refund of $39.20 is in my bank account. Thank you wonderful computer. The $39.20 is the most common fee for a consultation.

If I went to a practice that charged the most common fee I would pay nix.


The USA is a one off and this Socialist stuff is tiresome. The US taxpayers should be jumping up and down about medical costs there. Twice as much as here in US dollars and probably much the same results.

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margaritadina

''Kathy US is not a totally capitalist country. We give tax breaks and subsidies to corps. Isn’t that socialism?''

NO. IT IS NOT.

Dear liberals you have mashed potatoes in your heads - I said it in a loving way. Please get some books and find out what devil you advocating for.

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Chi

Margarita, which Dem programs do you think would turn the US into a socialist country?

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Ann

Arthur, I guess a population of about 325 million (vs about 25 million in Australia), an expected price tag of 30 trillion, and upending the healthcare of around 180 million (who don't want it upended) is a bit tiresome too. Some of these issues just might cause some of that jumping up and down you speak of.

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Kathy

91 Corps paid NO federal tax in 2018 the first year the tax cuts were in effect.

The lower average rate means that the federal government brought in about $74 billion less in corporate taxes than if all the companies had paid the statutory rate, according to the report.


Of course I know this isn’t considered socialism in the strict sense.

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Kathy


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Ann

Arthur, furthermore, I might add that quite a number of people in the U.S. are "jumping up and down" with joy at the current state of our economy. It's a seriously great one - in our big capitalist country:)

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Ann

Arthur: "If I went to a practice that charged the most common fee I would pay nix."

This from Vox, Jan. 29, 2020:

"Australia has layered a private health care system on top of its universal public insurance program, and that gives both doctors and patients more choice about medical care. But once you have different tiers in your health care system, disparities are going to emerge. Wait times in Australia’s public hospitals are twice as long as those in private hospitals.

And because the Australian government is spending billions of dollars supporting a struggling private insurance industry for middle-class and wealthier patients, it has fewer resources to devote to disadvantaged populations, like indigenous Australians or patients living in rural areas who have less access to medical care. Public patients in public facilities face longer wait times."


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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

I did not say that the system here is perfect. There are wait times in the public system for procedures such as knee and hip replacements.

Wait times in private hospitals, none that I have encountered and treatment in both the private and public hospitals is fine!

There is the universal problem of the scrooge. They are everywhere! A lady I know waited six months for knee surgery. No Private Hospital Cover. And not down to her last dollar.

The Government doesn't own any of the means of production that I know of. They, and most politicians would love to sell off one of the few remaining public assets. The National Broadcaster. That would be committing electoral suicide.

I suppose economies of scale cannot work in the USA, but surely even the most ardent right wing person there must realise that crunch time is now!

No one has answered my question above re. how many people vote in the never ending elections over there. Political junkie heaven, non political junkie hell.

The Australian Share market market went up to-day.

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tryingtounderstand

There is no way, liberals advocate for the USA to become a socialist country. Capitalism will always prevail.

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tryingtounderstand

It would be awesome, if some entity would review healthcare in the USA and find a magic solution. It’s current system is extremely unaffordable for way too many folk. Universal coverage where everything is paid for doesn’t make sense either. In fact, Canada’s system doesn’t even cover everything.

But it is amazing to me, that folk would rather pay lots of $$$ to insurance companies rather than putting the same amount toward taxes. With the end result having a more universal health care system.

The amount of wasted money diverted toward advertising is ludicrous. Imagine taking all those marketing ads and redirecting them toward somewhat of a more accessible healthcare system.

We don’t need commercial advertising for medical insurance, Hearth medication Physician groups, Hospitals on and on ad nauseam.

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Ann

"I suppose economies of scale cannot work in the USA, but surely even the most ardent right wing person there must realise that crunch time is now!"

Arthur, you're right, your system is not perfect. But, it's known to be a one of the better ones in the world and, for Australia, that's a good thing. On a long vacation a few months ago, we spent a lot of time dining and chatting with a Canadian couple we formed a friendship with. They liked their healthcare system, but certainly wished it had the private element Australia's system has.

I think I got a little annoyed last night because we Americans often get "advice" from people from other countries (with less than 1/10 our population and facing their own challenges with their own national healthcare systems handling just 20-30 million people) about what we should change, etc. Have you noticed the economy and prosperity of the U.S. at present? It's impressive! Capitalism is alive and well and working quite well for America and Americans right now. It would be no small hit to our economy to decide to put our healthcare for over 300 million people into the hands of the government, and I'd argue the hands of the government can be one of the least effective places to put something one wants to streamline and gain efficiency from. Respectfully, I don't see the U.S. as in any "crunch time" situation at present. Many things within our country should and will get attention (I certainly hope nationalizing healthcare and taxing very heavily to pay that enormous cost isn't one of them), but we're doing just fine. We have some very angry people in our country right now who can't stand our current president and the successes of our current president, but from one (of many) citizens who loves those successes and supports our president, America is one great, free, and prosperous nation to live in (and with regular and outstanding advancements in state of the art medicine).

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Ann

"The Australian Share market market went up to-day. "

Excellent! Our 30 trillion dollar market is at an all time high today, so good news there as well.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I love the idea of a 2 tier system. One for the masses, and one for those with a bit more money. One group could have very reasonable waits of a month or so, and the other could be a more reasonable week or so. That way we could claim "universal healthcare" and those with some means could still purchase better care.


Almost like Medicaid and private insurance...

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Kathy

If you can get into a renown specialist in a week with any kind of insurance you are lucky. Try 6 weeks. Even my reg Docs are 4 weeks out, unless it’s an emergency and I live in a metropolitan area with many available docs.

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