It's not fear that drives trump loyalty...

Annie Deighnaugh

Whatever word you want to use for it — fascism, authoritarianism, pick your poison — the grim reality is that Republicans, both politicians and voters, appear to be all in on this project. It's painful to admit this, but Republicans have flat-out rejected democracy. As a group, they are pushing towards replacing democracy with a system where a powerful minority holds disproportionate and borderline tyrannical control over government and blocks the majority of Americans from having meaningful say over the direction of the country.

Republicans are not cowering in fear of Trump. On the contrary, they are exalting in his shamelessness. Watching Republicans at impeachment hearings, where they performed outrage for the cameras, lied with obvious glee and gloried in sharing conspiracy theories, it did not appear that they were intimidated by their president or anyone else.

No, Republicans clearly feel empowered by Trump. He frees them to reveal their darkest desire — which is to end democracy as we know it, and to cut any corners or break any laws necessary to get the job done.

And the Republican voter base is right there along with the politicians. A new Washington Post/ABC poll found that, despite recent hearings that made it almost comically obvious how guilty Trump is, Republican voters are standing by their man. When asked if Trump should be impeached and removed from office, 86% of self-identified Republicans said no. In fact, in the face of mounting evidence of Trump's guilt, Republicans are digging in even more. Fewer Republican voters support impeachment now than a similar poll showed in October.

It's easy to write this off as pure tribalism, and there is no doubt that's a big factor. But that can't account for the entire phenomenon, especially since Democrats have shown no interest in pursuing evidence that Vice President Mike Pence was involved in the crime (though it does appear he is implicated), which would mean that dumping Trump wouldn't actually cost Republicans the White House.

No, the darker truth is that Republican voters, like Republican politicians, see clearly what Trump did — use the power of his office in an overt attempt to cheat in the 2020 election — and they love it. Like their leaders, Republican voters are feeling done with democracy and eager to follow Trump into a new world, where the majority of Americans who vote for Democrats are kept out of power, by any means necessary.

See full article: https://www.salon.com/2019/12/17/are-republicans-afraid-of-trump-hell-no-hes-destroying-democracy-and-they-love-it/

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Annie Deighnaugh

Any evidence for this?

The majority of Americans wanted to hear from witnesses, but the gop said no.

The majority of Americans want the ACA but the gop is still trying to kill it.

The majority of Americans support the EPA, cleaner air and water, but the gop are pulling the plug on the administration and the regulations it's charged with enforcing.

The majority of Americans want to increase taxes on the wealthy, but that didn't stop trump from cutting them, bigly.

The majority of Americans support social security, but that doesn't stop trump and the gop from cutting it in the budget.

etc. etc.

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queenmargo

LOL- not much activity here tonight.

This article is funny.

I do agree with keeping Democrats out of power tho.


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queenmargo

Annie- you can repeat the majority of Americans all day long and it doesn't change the fact that Trump was voted in. He won the electoral college. The same electoral college that Obama had to win, and all the others.

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Stan Areted

That is pure poppycock because it does not describe even remotely even one President Trump supporter that I know or know of.


It his what losers have rationalized about losing to people they do not understand and do not tolerate because they do not agree with them.

It is also a nasty accusation, baseless and arrogant.

Keep it up libs. 2020 looks better and better with such publications--from salon what else would one expect?

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elvis

"Poppycock". Great word: "Jibberjabber" is another good one.

ETA: No, the darker truth is that Republican voters, like Republican politicians, see clearly what Trump did — use the power of his office in an overt attempt to cheat in the 2020 election — and they love it.

Now, that^^^ makes me want to say "bwahahaha", maybe with the theme song from The Omen in the background...

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Del Phinium

I prefer "codswallop".

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Del Phinium

"It's not fear that drives Trump loyalty..."

LOL. I'll tell ya, I was on the edge of my seat, waiting to see what followed this sentence, hahaha

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

In a nutshell--

"Republicans are not cowering in fear of Trump. On the contrary, they are exalting in his shamelessness. Watching Republicans at impeachment hearings, where they performed outrage for the cameras, lied with obvious glee and gloried in sharing conspiracy theories, it did not appear that they were intimidated by their president or anyone else.

No, Republicans clearly feel empowered by Trump. He frees them to reveal their darkest desire — which is to end democracy as we know it, and to cut any corners or break any laws necessary to get the job done.

. . . Like their leaders, Republican voters are feeling done with democracy and eager to follow Trump into a new world, where the majority of Americans who vote for Democrats are kept out of power, by any means necessary."


Kate

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queenmargo

Watching Republicans at impeachment hearings, where they performed outrage for the cameras, lied with obvious glee and gloried in sharing conspiracy theories, it did not appear that they were intimidated by their president or anyone else.

No one performed outrage for the cameras, lied with obvious glee and gloried in sharing conspiracy theories more than that bugged eyed slippery frog Schiff.

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Del Phinium

"He frees them to reveal their darkest desire — which is to end democracy as we know it..."

^ I think that was my favorite part of that excerpt LOL. There are so many great lines, it's hard to pick just one :)

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Annie Deighnaugh

So stan, you are saying that the gop doesn't gerrymander and try to suppress democratic votes? That the gop didn't just vote to stop witnesses from testifying and documents being presented that would shed light on what the president did with ukraine for good or for ill? That the gop and the president have done everything to stop russian interference in our elections in favor of trump? Please. The gop is all about winning and doing everything, legit or not, to accomplish it...be it making use of stolen DNC documents and help from russian gru agents to illegal contributions to the NRA.

No, you make these baseless statements with nothing but adjectives to back them up while ignoring or dissing the facts and evidence presented. You may disagree with the conclusion, but if you want me to buy what you're selling, it would help if you added some facts supporting your case rather than just calling it all poppycock and all dems arrogant and elitist.

This nonstop accusation of being elitist and arrogant is getting really tiresome. Argue the facts and the conclusions and stop characterizing me with veiled (and not so veiled) ad hominem attacks.

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queenmargo

This nonstop accusation of being elitist and arrogant is getting really tiresome. Argue the facts and the conclusions and stop characterizing me with veiled (and not so veiled) ad hominem attacks.

Really Annie?

You start a thread with nonstop accusations of Trump supporters and then you find it tiresome of liberals being called names?

This article you copied and pasted is a veiled (and not so veiled) attack on us Trump supporters.

Do you not see that?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Here's an article making the opposite case:

Fear and Loyalty: How Donald Trump Took Over the Republican Party

The president demands complete fealty, and as the impeachment hearings showed, he has largely attained it. To cross him is to risk losing a future in the Republican Party.

...Mr. Trott got the message: To defy Mr. Trump is to invite the president’s wrath, ostracism within the party and a premature end to a career in Republican politics. Mr. Trott decided not to seek re-election in his suburban Detroit district, concluding that running as a Trump skeptic was untenable, and joining a wave of Republican departures from Congress that has left those who remain more devoted to the president than ever....

“If I was still there and speaking out against the president, what would happen to me?” Mr. Trott said before answering his own question: Mr. Trump would have lashed out and pressured House G.O.P. leaders to punish him....

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/21/us/politics/trump-impeachment-republicans.html



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Annie Deighnaugh

Really Annie?

Really Margo.

To post articles by authors opining how and why the gop is selling our very form of government down the river, and inviting discussion of those opinions, is not the same as individuals repeatedly posting the same loosely veiled ad hominem attacks on other individual posters.

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queenmargo

It is in a passive aggressive form.

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Kathy

No, Republicans clearly feel empowered by Trump. He frees them to reveal their darkest desire — which is to end democracy as we know it, and to cut any corners or break any laws necessary to get the job done.


They are profiting from Trump in their campaigns.


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Annie Deighnaugh

It is in a passive aggressive form.

No it's not.

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Annie Deighnaugh

On John Dean: Raised up as a proud “Goldwater Republican,” Dean has deep roots in the “conscience of a conservative” past of the party that Trump has taken over. But he long ago recognized that the conservative ideology is being hijacked by Republicans who are inclined toward precisely the sort of reckless authoritarianism that Trump practices.

More than a decade ago, he warned of what was becoming of the party of Goldwater and Reagan, in a groundbreaking book, Conservatives Without Conscience (Viking), which argued that “tough, coldblooded, ruthless authoritarians” had “co-opted” conservatism, and, by extension, the Republican Party. https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/trumps-conservatives-without-conscience-are-rattled-by-john-dean/

There's a reason why a lot of moderate conservatives have left the gop and why so many gop members are deciding not to run again...they don't want to be part and parcel of the party of trump and authoritarianism.

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Annie Deighnaugh

As we have discussed before, another area of empowerment for the trumplicans is the defense of a white male christian privilege he represents. To wit, as trump is becoming more unleashed with clear evidence impeachment is going nowhere, he just expanded the travel ban to include 6 more muslim-heavy nations.

If we thought trump pushed the envelope before, we ain't seen nothin' yet...

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Del Phinium

"If we thought trump pushed the envelope before, we ain't seen nothin' yet..."

GASP!!!

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mudhouse

I'm a die hard Trump supporter, and I don't have a dream of crushing democracy. None of us do. I fight for democracy, by objecting to things that I think threaten it, including the complete disregard for fairness and due process in a sham impeachment (as we've discussed.) And by objecting to threats against free speech, because our ability to say what we think, and fight for what we believe, is at the core of our democracy.

I don't condone breaking laws or cutting legal corners. That's what FBI agents did, when they falsified evidence to obtain FISA warrants so they could spy illegally on American citizens. I object to that. People should go to jail for that.

I don't believe that my country is under threat from racial diversity. People have become so obsessed with race, and the charge of racism has been so overused to bludgeon people, it's become meaningless. Amanda Marcotte's instinct to blame racism as the cause for Trump's support is wrong, embarrassingly delusional, and simple-minded. But, as a free speech supporter, I'll fight for her right to illustrate that she's delusional and simple-minded, all day long. Go Amanda!

I don't see voters as an obstacle. They're the lifeblood of our democracy. That's one reason I object strenuously to the process of an illegitimate impeachment being used to overturn the results of of the last election, in the hopes of damaging Trump's chances in the next election, by using smears and lies. Let the people decide.

Amanda Marcotte has every right to publish her opinions. You have the right to share them here, and agree with her. I have the right to ignore it or disagree, so we're good.

Annie, I don't think any of us are trying to sell anything. We're just saying what we think, and disagreeing with characterizations about Trump supporters that we think are wrong.

Marcotte's characterizations of Trump supporters are insulting. They're not even thinly veiled insults; they're blatant. And the reality is, if you make unflattering characterizations about people, they're usually going to return the same. Seems fair, and that's how people work.

MAGA.

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mudhouse

Bingo, catkin.

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lurker111

Isn't it funny how the propagandists try to sell Joe's confession as a conspiracy theory? He gave it all away and exposed the clan.

Thanks joe, You did good, for a change.

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mrskjun(9)

I doubt anything could destroy democracy faster than socialism.

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leona_2008

16000+ lies

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Annie Deighnaugh

mrskjun, the scale is capitalism to socialism as both are economic systems. The political scale is from democracy to authoritarianism. We have seen various forms of the former operate under various forms of the latter.

For example, china used to be far more socialistic but has since found economic success by embracing more capitalism while still retaining an iron control over the political systems with a "president for life" in charge. Or, for example, we've seen Britain be far more socialistic and then take steps back to freer economics and capitalism under Thatcher. There are many other examples of countries with varying degrees of political freedom operating with varying degrees of economic freedom.

So socialism may or many not accompany the destruction of democracy.

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Rina

I love the clarity of this post, Annie. Thanks for the lift to my mood (which needs it right now).

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

A sham 'trial' without witnesses or evidence is the antithesis of Democracy.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

Marcotte's characterizations of Trump supporters are insulting. They're not even thinly veiled insults; they're blatant. And the reality is, if you make unflattering characterizations about people, they're usually going to return the same. Seems fair, and that's how people work.


This is why most of the discussions here do nothing but entrench positions, hardening people's opinions instead of opening their eyes to other possibilities. I cannot allow myself to say anything here I would not face to face to a Trump supporter. I can freely discuss my support of immigration reform, my belief that Trump abused his political position for personal gain, my desire for universal healthcare, the need to restrain crony capitalism, better k-12 education decoupled from Zip codes, and on and on, but I could never allow myself to publicly opine on the right's motivations.

I am not saying a pundit does not have the right to do so, of course she does and her ideas may be interesting or useful, but in social discourse such as here, no thank you.


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socks(10a)

"Hot Topics" displays exactly what he has done to the U.S.: his hate and corruption have split the country and wrecked international relations. It's very unfortunate, but I have to believe we will eventually have an intelligent, dignified leader, one supporters don't have to constantly explain and make excuses for. A leader of which we can be proud, not ashamed.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

PS I whole heartedly believe Americans on the left and right want basically the same things, more importantly, I believe they value most of he same things. Our differences are being exploited and used to damage our democracy. These arguments are a ratings bonanza for the media, both old and new.

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Stan Areted

PRESIDENT TRUMP has not divided the country,

Sore loser democrats who refuse to accept the results of an election have.

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justerrilynn(10)

What an embittered article.

This is a Trump supporter:

Happy, family oriented, honest, open minded, lover of all peoples, proud, love of country and down to earth. We want to live our lives within laws but without being put in an identity box. We love our individuality. Most don’t care for a lot of drama. We can happily go about our lives knowing that Trump has our and America’s back and will call out all the past and new unchecked corruption of the Democratic Party.

It’s not really all that complicated. Trump levels the playing field and is making America great again.

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olliesmom

Make America Great Again. Let that sink in. THAT is what Trump Supporters want and are getting. We do not want socialism. That is where Democrats are heading. We are behind a President that can and WILL stand up to REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS. We really needed someone like him, flaws and all, to take the really important issues and policies for those of us who really believe in America. We were losing it. Now, we are getting it back.

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Stan Areted

Yes OLLIESMOM!


MAGA


The dems must be so deflated today--different than the puffery we've seen displayed.

Did anyone see Ted Cruz do the Pelosi slow clap?


ROTF!

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queenmargo

Most don’t care for a lot of drama.

LOL- I do like a bit of drama;)

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Annie Deighnaugh

Actually it is a little more complicated than that. For instance what about corruption in the gop? What about the president living within the laws? What about love for your fellow Americans who happen to be democrats? Should the president have the back of all Americans or just those who support him?

Just asking for a friend....

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Annie Deighnaugh

Certainly trump likes drama. He makes it wherever he goes, from escalator entrances to military parades.

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Tito Milian

Piffle, rubbish, claptrap, balderdash, hogwash, malarkey, twaddle, dribble, flapdoodle, tommyrot, blather.

A passel of synonyms for the sentiments expressed in the OP.

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Annie Deighnaugh

And there it is again. trumplicants are so happy to label the dems as elitist and condescending and intolerant of alternate viewpoints. Yet they will aver that only *they* are the true Americans who love this country...anyone who disagrees with them is not....as they stand by and watch, and even support, the wholesale destruction of our system of checks and balances and an authoritarian take over.

You may be happy in the short term as you think he has your back, but what happens when this president or the next one turns on you?

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justerrilynn(10)

Annie, outside of forums like this I have no problem with friends having different political beliefs. It’s easy for me to separate the person I know and love from their political party. I have found that that thought process is much more difficult for democrats toward me. I still continue to have faith in mankind though.

There has always been corruption in politics, unfortunately, and on both sides.

The frustration for right leaning Independents and Republicans is that one side has gone completely unchecked due to 90% of the media being on their side.

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Tito Milian

mrskjun(9)

2 hours ago

”I doubt anything could destroy democracy faster than socialism.“

Or kill as many millions.

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Tito Milian

I don’t think the Left understands Trump’s base. He will never turn on his base. Period. Trump is for all Americans,. Whether you choose to Embrace his strengthening of our country and our economy is up to you.Most who choose to hate and resist would rather curse the darkness than light a candle. There are millions and millions and millions and millions of Americans who are lighting candles. In the future is very very bright my friends!

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olliesmom


I don't expect everyone to like Trump, his policies and issues are very different than the Left. I get that. But, Dems can't go around attacking the President every single day, DIVIDING OUR COUNTRY, just because they don't like him. And, that is what they do, and that is what the rest of America sees.

Just think, the 2016 election, the President didn't even have all the Republican support. Now, he does. We are stronger than ever.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Almost all of my posts from yesterday are gone today throughout these threads, they were harmless posts but it appears that silencing voices isn't just isolated to the repubs in the senate.

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queenmargo

Almost all of my posts from yesterday are gone today throughout these threads, they were harmless posts but it appears that silencing voices isn't just isolated to the repubs in the senate.

It is happening to me too vgkg. You are not elite.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Never claimed to be, the little people are the ones who usually lose out and are shut out. The moderators should be the only ones able to delete posts but that does not appear to be the case here.

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olliesmom

Annie, I really don't see Dems as really loving our country. I see them wanting to change into a new country that fits their social agendas.

I saw on a TV program the other day, where a celebrity had a "flag dress" on in her past, and, after someone showing her a pic of her in that dress, she said she hated that dress now. That is how I see the Dems now. They even hate anything red, white and blue now??

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HU-885118952

olliesmom, I see Dems as not thinking America is worth fighting for. I see them as not believing in the greatness of our country, hence the push for open borders.

Dems think America is not sovereign, or worth protecting, particularly its citizens. It's short sighted, but getting into power in all they care about.

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HU-885118952

There's no doubt Democrats want to take America down to the studs and rebuild it. After 8 years of a globalist who fostered "fundamental change", America got Trump.

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elvis

I could never allow myself to publicly opine on the right's motivations.

I am not saying a pundit does not have the right to do so, of course she does and her ideas may be interesting or useful, but in social discourse such as here, no thank you.

Amen to that, and I appreciate your posting it.

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Toby

olliesmom Annie, I really don't see Dems as really loving our country.

HU-885118952 olliesmom, I see Dems as not thinking America is worth fighting for.

Translation: We are the true Americans and Dems are our enemy. What do we do with our enemies? We eliminate them.

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olliesmom

^^^Your translation reminds me of Schiff's parodies!


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mudhouse

I'm kind of on the fence on this one. I appreciate Zalco's comment because it reflects an awareness that opining about other people's motivations can be, well, dicey. I agree.

Personally I think part of the problem is, when we say we know what others think, or what causes them to hold the opinions they do, we're trying to read their minds (or we're at least making guesses) and that's dicey too. We only really know what's in our own minds.

But I think it can be discussed carefully, because it touches on some things that are important right now. HU88's comment about the Dems wanting to take things down to the studs, and rebuild America, matches my thinking. I've also had the same feeling that Olliesmom described. I've been really flabbergasted by some left comments that seem to reveal they hold America, and America's history, in less regard than I always have. That was a huge surprise to me when I started posting in HT. I had to think about it.

Maybe neither side is unAmerican, but we have increasingly opposite ideas about what's best for America. I think this could be discussed, with respect for opposing viewpoints. (Respect is the tricky part; anger is easier.)

The problem with articles like the one in the OP is they leave no room for discussion. That piece slanders one side in favor of the other. It's within the author's rights to do so. It's within Annie's rights to share it here. But the opinions in that article are a dead-end declaration, not to be confused with a conversation.

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Stan Areted


Toby

olliesmom Annie, I really don't see Dems as really loving our country.

HU-885118952 olliesmom, I see Dems as not thinking America is worth fighting for.

Translation: We are the true Americans and Dems are our enemy. What do we do with our enemies? We eliminate them.


No, that's what dems do.

Or rather, try to do. Pretty pitiful efforts as of late.


We choose to enjoy life and tolerate our enemies because we know we will best them in the end.

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mudhouse

Toby: Translation: We are the true Americans and Dems are our enemy. What do we do with our enemies? We eliminate them.

That's not at all how I would translate HU88's or Olliesmom's comments.

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Rina

From a distance, and partly through the evidence of people who are not even on this thread, I'd say that most "Dems" (using the term broadly to denote people who will vote for the Democratic Party candidate in the election) appear to love America with all their heart and soul. And fighting for it is what they are doing right now.

What a betrayal of the country it would be to accept that Donald Trump was a measure of America's worth.

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mudhouse

Rina, those of us who believe Trump is delivering desperately needed changes to our country are also fighting for what we think is right, because we love our country.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"I see them as not believing in the greatness of our country, hence the push for open borders. Dems think America is not sovereign, or worth protecting. . . ."

I have never met a Democrat who ever expressed such views. Your distorted caricature of a Democrat exists only in your own mind.

~

"There are millions and millions and millions and millions of Americans who are lighting candles [to Trump's version of America]."

And there are 3 million MORE Americans who do not light candles to Trump than those who do.

Kate

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mudhouse

It's entirely possible for two intelligent groups of people to have completely opposing viewpoints about what's right for their country. Slandering each other's character only moves us further away from where we need to be, if we ever hope to be unified as a country.

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queenmargo

What a betrayal of the country it would be to accept that Donald Trump was a measure of America's worth.

Just an opinion and we all have them;)

My personal betrayal of the country was that we had to accept Barack Obama for 8 looooong years as a measure of America's worth.

See how this goes.

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HU-885118952

It is a fact that Democrats have signaled that if they win, they will provide free healthcare to illegals. It is a face that Warren said she would not deport illegals.

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HU-885118952

queenmargo, enduring Obama's apology tour and frittering away our good deeds and largess was a lot to endure.

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mudhouse

Yes, the apology tour was an eye-opener for me about how differently people see the issue of who and what America should be. And recent arguments over the differences between Trump's and Obama's policies have made those divisions more clear.

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queenmargo

LOL not to mention the serious case of poison ivy I endured when I went out and took my frustration out on some unknown brush in the yard after he was re-elected. lol lol,

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mudhouse

I've done that. Poison ivy doesn't care what we think. I even knew it was poison ivy but I thought I could defeat it with the power of my mind. Lol. Nope.

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lurker111

And there are 3 million MORE Americans who do not light candles to Trump than those who do.
Kate

Not true at all. You meant to say "voters in the 2016 election." Not "Americans". I'm sure most of those were ghosts and illegal aliens.

I'm not allergic to Poison Ivy. I can pull the vines all day without a problem and the pollen doesn't bother me, either. :^)

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Ann

Wow, what a thread and what passionate feelings from both sides.

This comment especially grabbed my attention because of my belief in personal responsibility. Let me propose the possibility that the comments on HT are the sole responsibility of the people choosing what to write, all by themselves. If HT does reflect some of what people (in the U.S. and the other countries from which HT posters are from) are feeling and how they are acting, maybe people need to take a good look at what they are "reflecting" right here on HT. "he"/Trump is not participating on HT, Socks.

"Hot Topics" displays exactly what he has done to the U.S.: his hate and corruption have split the country and wrecked international relations. It's very unfortunate, but I have to believe we will eventually have an intelligent, dignified leader, one supporters don't have to constantly explain and make excuses for. A leader of which we can be proud, not ashamed."

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"It is a face [sic] that Warren said she would not deport illegals."

HU. . .52 distorts what Warren said by omitting the really important information--namely, that she might use refusal to deport illegals NOT as her permanent immigration policy but as a TOOL to force Repubs and Dems to the table to work out decent immigration reform --such as reform that does not separate children from their families.

That's quite a bit different than what HU. . . 52 averred.

Kate

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mudhouse

"Hot Topics" displays exactly what he has done to the U.S.: his hate and
corruption have split the country and wrecked international relations.

I agree with your thoughts about the above comment, Ann. Making Trump the villain is an easy way to avoid the hard work of figuring out where our differences lie, and what to do about it, as a nation.

That's also why I throw up my hands when people imply the division will disappear after Trump is out of office. No. The problem for the left is not Trump. The problem for the left is the large number of people who agree with his policies. That disagreement is what causes the division.

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mudhouse

I'm not allergic to Poison Ivy. I can pull the vines all day without a problem and the pollen doesn't bother me, either. :^)

Lurker, I didn't know this super power existed!

But, if you ever need an Agave americana hacked down, I'm your girl, because that sap doesn't bother me like some. (We should all network.)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

The article Annie posted is about the Republican Party as an institution and the people who are elected as candidates from it, most specifically the higher ups who are driving policy. Their philosophy, their goals, their motivations.

It has nothing to do with the general voter choosing who will get his/her vote based on very different information than what goes on behind the scenes.

No one thinks that the average voter is deliberately voting for autocracy. However, the average voter would do well to analyze what is being “sold” to them and why, and what they have to give up in order to “buy” it. That holds true anywhere on the political compass, of course.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

However--

Like their leaders, Republican voters are feeling done with democracy and eager to follow Trump into a new world, where the majority of Americans who vote for Democrats are kept out of power, by any means necessary."

(from the OP)

Kate

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Toby

Personally I think part of the problem is, when we say we know what
others think, or what causes them to hold the opinions they do, we're
trying to read their minds (or we're at least making guesses) and that's
dicey too. We only really know what's in our own minds.

What can be more evident of this than olliesmom saying Dems don't love our country? This rhetoric is spread for the sole reason that we don't support Trump. From there it's an easy and dangerous jump to calling us traitors to our country. It plants the idea in some crackpot carrying a flag and a gun that maybe he should do something about those traitors.

This faux patriotism that pits you against me really worries me. It plays with fire, and Trump fans the flames. Even some here have chosen to fan them.

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paprikash

It's not fear that drives trump loyalty...

————-

True — it’s Trump’s accomplishments in spite of the democrat unreasonable resistance

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

HITS Syndrome (Head in the Sand Syndrome)

Kate

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paprikash


A sham 'trial' without witnesses or evidence is the antithesis of Democracy.

————

well, the fact that it was a sham impeachment and sham indictment was the antithesis of Democracy first

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mudhouse

Toby, the point of my post above was to say that there's a way to discuss the topic of what we believe, and how the other side's beliefs look to us. I've made comments similar to Olliemom's, and it was my honest appraisal of how it seems to me.

I'll use your phrase. I think Marcotte's article in the OP is a good example of damaging rhetoric spread for the sole reason of mischaracterizing people like me, that support Trump. I can also make the same case you did, it's an easy leap from there to hardening wrong characterizations that can justify violence, just as you said.

A comment in a discussion forum is not the same thing as a lengthy and slanderous article in a prominent website. A comment in a forum is a way to have a conversation. I have the ball, and then you can have it.

Instead of taking it as a further pitting of one against the other, how about taking the ball and explaining why it's not a real reflection of how you feel? That's what I tried to do, in my first post in this thread in response to the article. It helps.

Trump is not fanning the flames here. How we react to each other's viewpoints, here in HT, is doing a fine job of that. Trump isn't posting here, as Ann pointed out. We are. We're in control of this conversation, and we're responsible for it. We can make it worse, or we can make it better.

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paprikash

Kate - my head is neither in the sand nor anywhere else (unlike the pathetic partisan democrats who produced the sham impeachment)

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Rina

Mudhouse:

Rina, those of us who believe Trump is delivering desperately needed changes to our country are also fighting for what we think is right, because we love our country.

I accept tthat, for those who really do believe Trump is delivering changes the country needs, which I don't think applies to all Trump supporters by a long chalk. However I was reacting to comments by Olliesmom and Hu88 that Democrats don't love the country or think it's worth fighting for, which to my mind is arrant nonsense.

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justerrilynn(10)

Kate, my feeling is that democrats in general have been protected by media from learning the shortcomings of their own party. This has been going on for years but has recently gotten much much worse. I do not trust most Democrats judgment in politics. It would be impossible for them to look at things objectively when they are only told daily that they are perfect in every possible way.

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HU-885118952

However I was reacting to comments by Olliesmom and Hu88 that
Democrats don't love the country or think it's worth fighting for, which
to my mind is arrant nonsense.

Until I see the Democrat party leadership vociferously reject the socialism, fascism, communism, Marxism and anti-Semitism that has taken hold in their party, I will believe that Democrats do not regard America as worth fighting for.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

And I reject your unsubstantiated opinion about Dems.

Kate

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Kathy

I guess some people haven’t seen the Rep party from the outside. It sounds as if the reflection in the mirror is deceiving them.

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Ann

"That's also why I throw up my hands when people imply the division will disappear after Trump is out of office. No. The problem for the left is not Trump. The problem for the left is the large number of people who agree with his policies. That disagreement is what causes the division."

I agree it's the strong disagreement that causes the division. Clearly it's easier to handle that disagreement when the side one supports has more governmental seats/control. The side not in control has to figure out a way to keep it in perspective and recognize it's temporary. I feel this type of division mostly started with the later G.W. years, continued through the Obama years, and, most definitely, through the Trump years. Like it or not, we need to both understand and respect people don't always agree with us - and that's fine!

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HU-885118952

Ann, the next losing Presidential candidate would do the country a favor if they don't follow Hillary's example and that of the pink hats.

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barncatz

What can be more evident of this than olliesmom saying Dems don't love our country? This rhetoric is spread for the sole reason that we don't support Trump. From there it's an easy and dangerous jump to calling us traitors to our country. It plants the idea in some crackpot carrying a flag and a gun that maybe he should do something about those traitors.

This faux patriotism that pits you against me really worries me. It plays with fire, and Trump fans the flames. Even some here have chosen to fan them.

From another thread.

I was truly offended when I saw the crats take the Pledge of Allegiance.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

It's not like our rightward marching comrades aren't posting plenty of opinion pieces themselves, however, it seems many of those get treated as news reporting, when they are not.

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Rina

Hu: as far as I'm concerned:

Socialism -- you already have socialism, as does every other civilised country in the world. Why reject it? It's merely a matter of determining how far it should go, and whether the country wants to invest more in its children, and its old, aged, sick and poverty-stricken people. Why reject that?

Communism -- I see no sign of it, and I live in a country with a Communist party. Ditto Marxism (perhaps you'd like to define how you use the term 'Communism" if it doesn't cover "Marxism" as well, or was that just a bit of careless thinking?)

Anti-Semitism -- again, I see no general anti-semitism, although of course many people regard the Palestinians as having rights too and also regard many actions of the Israeli government as being unacceptable in that regard. To oppose a country's government is entirely a different thing from feeling animus towards the religion or nationality of its citizens. For example, I opposed Russia's government for many years (still do, but on other grounds). I am in no way prejudiced against Russian people.

Fascism -- sorry, that one is just a joke that I believe arose because of the similarity being noted between Donald Trump's approach to whipping up enthusiasm (including vilifying "the other") and his greed for as much power as he could grab for himself, and the methods of the fascist leaders of the past -- and because he was being called fascist, the right wing decided that the best response was to call the left-wing fascist. Just plain silly.

ETA: Off to bed now.

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Annie Deighnaugh

margaritadina, what lines were crossed? I posted an opinion piece with which you are free to agree or disagree and explain why.

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barncatz

Max Boot :opinion- the term he used was quasi-authoritarian


I was recently asked if I would ever rejoin the Republican Party after having registered as an independent the day after President Trump’s election in 2016. The answer is an emphatic no. Trump will leave office some day (I hope!), but he will leave behind a quasi-authoritarian party that is as corrupt as he is. The failure to call witnesses in Trump’s impeachment trial revealed the GOP’s moral failure.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/01/gop-doesnt-deserve-survive-this-debacle/?itid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-h%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

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ubro(2a)

including the complete disregard for fairness and due process in a sham impeachment (as we've discussed.) And by objecting to threats against free speech, because our ability to say what we think, and fight for what we believe, is at the core of our democracy.

Sure that point is valid but then it is hard to defend a sham Senate Trial done for revenge. When, if holding the trial and voting for witnesses, documents and proof, and then coming to the conclusion not to Impeach, would have at least held up the very democracy you defend.

I don't see voters as an obstacle. They're the lifeblood of our democracy. That's one reason I object strenuously to the process of an illegitimate impeachment being used to overturn the results of of the last election, in the hopes of damaging Trump's chances in the next election, by using smears and lies. Let the people decide.


Letting the country suffer at the hands of a tyrant ( I am not referring to Trump but just a general leader) till the next election because they voted for him before he started being corrupt is not democracy. In a democracy you have the power, as citizens to remove a leader no matter who elected him or when. He works for you not you for him.


Gaining information in order to smear an opponent, which has been gained thru coercion and interference from a foreign power is not' letting' the people decide, it is hoodwinking and lying to them.


Hardly a fair fight when the POTUS has the resources and position to muscle arm weaker countries to aide him in his re election and the opponent does not have that type of access to funds or means of bribery.



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Joaniepoanie

margaritadina

''Whatever word you want to use for it — fascism, authoritarianism,
pick your poison — the grim reality is that Republicans, both
politicians and voters, appear to be all in on this project. ''

You crossed all the lines, Annie. I flagged you topic.

*********

You had a problem and flagged a post from Annie which were not even her words but have no problem with the following posted upthread by HU 952:


Until I see the Democrat party leadership vociferously reject the socialism, fascism, communism, Marxism and anti-Semitism that has taken hold in their party, I will believe that Democrats do not regard America as worth fighting for.


The HT right for some time has called us Socialists, now it’s Communists, traitors, anti-Semite, anti-black, etc.

Hypocritical much?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The Unite the Right rally to show support for Trump included Nazis, white nationalists, and white supremacists.

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Joaniepoanie

Always the victims a la Trump. Cry me a river.

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queenmargo

LOL- not my problem Nancy, that does not make me a Nazi ,or a white supremacist.


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paprikash

That’s okay, Joaniepoanie, we consider the source. We’re not victims — our candidate won in 2016 so we have no river to cry. You guys, OTOH........

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elvis

Toby

olliesmom Annie, I really don't see Dems as really loving our country.

HU-885118952 olliesmom, I see Dems as not thinking America is worth fighting for.

Translation: We are the true Americans and Dems are our enemy. What do we do with our enemies? We eliminate them.

One can only hope that you are making a joke which is in extremely bad taste.

___________

What a betrayal of the country it would be to accept that Donald Trump was a measure of America's worth.

Rina, no one is a "measure of America's worth".

_____________



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Annie Deighnaugh

...used to overturn the results of of the last election...

Just to be clear, impeachment will not overturn the last election. If trump is impeached, hillary does *not* become president. hillary cannot become president. Rather the presidency remains in the hands of the gop with pence as the new president.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Do some folks identify with our president to the extent that they consider negative comments about him as applying to themselves...?

Oh and I'll add that it seems there's a lot of broad brush retaliation too, as in: somebody somewhere said that, so I'll direct my over-the-top retaliation at an entire group.

I've stated this before: if you're doing the same thing, you can't expect to have credibility.

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foodonastump

Personally I think part of the problem is, when we say we know what others think, or what causes them to hold the opinions they do, we're trying to read their minds (or we're at least making guesses) and that's dicey too. We only really know what's in our own minds.


I’d agree with that, mudhouse. I just hope you don’t see this as a one-sided occurrence. For all the disagreements we have here, I find among the most offensive to be charges that the Left hate this country.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I've marched multiple times since trump became president *because* I love this country. If I didn't, I sure wouldn't bother going through all that effort.

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mudhouse

ubro: Sure that point is valid but then it is hard to defend a sham Senate Trial done for revenge. When, if holding the trial and voting for witnesses, documents and proof, and then coming to the conclusion not to Impeach, would have at least held up the very democracy you defend.

From my point of view, the process was ruined from the start by the invalid and unfair House procedure. It was unreasonable to expect the Senate to fix the shoddy work of the House, and in fact I think it would have been less damaging to the country if the Senate had simply refused to hear the two invalid articles of impeachment. Neither abuse of power or obstruction of Congress are listed as impeachable offenses. I believe they were made-up, just like the whole House procedure that started with a press conference instead of a full House vote.

If I'd been in control of the Senate (ha) I would have given serious thought to rejecting them on face, to avoid the new precedent that the House can send poorly done work to the Senate. That would have been the best defense for the integrity of the process. But I don't think the political will or votes existed to do that.

ubro: Letting the country suffer at the hands of a tyrant ( I am not referring to Trump but just a general leader) till the next election because they voted for him before he started being corrupt is not democracy. In a democracy you have the power, as citizens to remove a leader no matter who elected him or when. He works for you not you for him.

We do have that power, but from my point of view, Trump is not a tyrant, and he is in fact working for me. He is bringing about the changes that I think will make the country stronger, safer, and more free. It would have been a complete injustice for Trump to be removed on the basis of a partisan and unjust political smear. Presidents are removed from office for impeachable offenses, and the House case managers did not make that case.

ubro: Gaining information in order to smear an opponent, which has been gained thru coercion and interference from a foreign power is not' letting' the people decide, it is hoodwinking and lying to them.

I don't believe, as you do, that this is an accurate characterization of what Trump did. If more information about corruption/election meddling in Ukraine comes out overtime, it will support what I believe, which is that Trump was right to pursue that allegation, and that it was part of his job.

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mudhouse

Just to be clear, impeachment will not overturn the last election. If trump is impeached, hillary does *not* become president. hillary cannot become president. Rather the presidency remains in the hands of the gop with pence as the new president.

I voted for Trump. Trump was elected president by the country. If he's removed from office, the results of the election that put him in office have been overturned. He is no longer president.

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HU-885118952

Democrats don't care what mechanism gets Trump out of office. They tried the Mueller investigation to support the accusation that Trump colluded with Russia. That failed. Then they got lucky because a never Trumper working in his administration tipped Schiff off about a phone call with Ukraine, and a whistle blower was born.

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ubro(2a)

I voted for Trump. Trump was elected president by the country. If he's removed from office, the results of the election that put him in office have been overturned. He is no longer president.

The results of the election have been overturned for a good reason if the leader is removed for a corrupt act.

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mudhouse

Foodonastump: I’d agree with that, mudhouse. I just hope you don’t see this as a
one-sided occurrence.

No, I don't. I think it's a normal human activity to try to guess what motivates other people, and what is in their minds. We do it all the time, even with people we love, and it's not necessarily a malevolent thing.

I could even make the case that trying to guess what motivates people at least indicates that you're interested enough to be curious about their priorities. But trying to find out what somebody thinks is very different from telling them what they think.

We have an opportunity here that the author of the OP article does not, because we can go back and forth. We can tell each other when their assumption is wrong about what's in our mind.

We can't make people listen. Most people don't listen well (especially now when stakes and emotions are high) because it's easier to invalidate an opinion by trying to invalidate the person who said it. We all do that. We should still try to believe people when they tell us what they think.

Foodonastump: For all the disagreements we have here, I find among of the most offensive to be charges that the Left hate this country.

Well, the author of the OP article certainly pushed my buttons with her assertions that Republicans (leaders and voters alike) hate democracy and turn a blind eye to what will destroy the country! (You should have seen what I typed out the first time.) (It's better you didn't.)

I think both sides have their sore spots, and maybe they're not the same (?) Maybe the right is less often accused of not loving their country, and maybe the left is less often accused of being stupid...on average(?) Just a thought.

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barncatz

The Mueller investigation was started and overseen by Rosenstein, a Republican.

The election result is overturned, just as the Founders prescribed.

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mudhouse

The results of the election have been overturned for a good reason if the leader is removed for a corrupt act.

Agreed, ubro. I just don't agree that Trump committed a corrupt act, as you believe.

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cyn427 NoVaZone7

"I voted for Trump. Trump was elected president by the country. If he's removed from office, the results of the election that put him in office have been overturned. He is no longer president. "

Seriously? The results of the election would not in any way be overturned. If he were to be removed, it would be through constitutional means. The duly elected vice president would become president. That is not negating any election. The president is responsible for the behaviors that would cause his removal. Same would be true for Clinton, Nixon, and Johnson.

I do wonder why this needs to be explained over and over.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

And if the people who elected the president were to come to the conclusion that they made a wrong choice--based on his actions, there is nothing they can do about it but suffer through the remainder of his term? Is that how you view it?

Serious question: he could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot some body, and you would support him for the rest of his term?

Kate

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barncatz

mudhouse, you believe the impeachment was a sham. You also refer repeatedly to ukranian meddling in the 2016 election. For example:

If more information about corruption/election meddling in Ukraine comes out overtime, it will support what I believe, which is that Trump was right to pursue that allegation, and that it was part of his job.

Your belief in and frankly, repeated references to, what Fiona Hill and so many others, have described as a russian disinformation campaign, is unnerving to me, no matter why you believe in it.

...But the other request [ in Trump's telephone call to Zelensky] was about an unproven allegation that the Ukrainians were somehow working against Trump, that it was Ukrainians, not Russians, who were hiding something about the hacking of the Democratic National Committee's computer server back in 2016.

We're going to look at this second issue, why it's not true, ...

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-facts-behind-trumps-claims-of-ukrainian-election-interference

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Agreed. The fact that such disinformation (lies, frankly) is being repeated, despite there being no proof of any of it, reflects badly on the persons - some of them elected officials - who keep pushing it, including members here.

Do they not realize they are promoting Russian propaganda?

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chipotle

The bigger question is do they not care?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Judging by comments here and elsewhere, I'd guess there is zero belief in anything that does not come from GOP approved sources.

Mighty helpful when you can convince people that they cannot trust anybody but you for information.

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bleusblue2

cyn427 NoVaZone7

"I voted for Trump. Trump was elected president by the country. If he's removed from office, the results of the election that put him in office have been overturned. He is no longer president. "

Seriously? The results of the election would not in any way be overturned. If he were to be removed, it would be through constitutional means. The duly elected vice president would become president. That is not negating any election. The president is responsible for the behaviors that would cause his removal. Same would be true for Clinton, Nixon, and Johnson.

I do wonder why this needs to be explained over and over.

~~~~

I do wonder why this needs to be explained over and over.

It has to be repeated often because maybe someday one of the Cult will get it. Over and over and over again we hear the "talking points"(?) -- about "overturned election."

And unfortunately this idiot president's election has not been overturned since he has done quite a lot during his term in office -- most of which the Cult is happy about -- the installation of conservative judges, the deregulation of environmental measures, the departure from international agreements -- He has done quite enough harm that will be difficult to undo. What a legacy. You got your wish so please stop repeating that idiocy. And by the way, even a criminal may be "duly elected" because voters didn't see through him. A "duly elected" president must carry out the oath of office or risk being impeached.

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Ann

I have a question for Dems on this thread. Why does it seem to bother so many of you so very much that others support Trump and don't agree with you about him. Is it because you fear he'll win and you're trying to convince people not to vote for him? Is it because you feel some need for others to agree with you? Why would questions like - would you support him if he shot someone - even be asked.

I couldn't stand Obama, but I didn't particularly care that others felt differently and liked him. While I understand the passion of your not liking Trump, I am confused by the relentless obsession with why others don't feel the same way as you do. Why do you care about that? Why not just be comfortable in your own opinions and recognize others are comfortable in their own opinions? Don't you ever think it's fine to just disagree about who you support and who you don't?

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queenmargo

Good question Ann. I too would like to know.

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paprikash

Me three

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Del Phinium

"Is it because you fear he'll win and you're trying to convince people not to vote for him?"

^ That'd be my own personal assumption, Ann, but I'd love for someone on the Left to answer that question, without using the words: king, authoritarian, white supremacist, nationalist, xenophobic, etc. etc. etc.

As soon as I start hearing that nonsense, I (usually) just skip that entire post and move along. It's that kind of language that makes me dig my heels in deeper, and makes it that much harder (for me) to even consider making any attempt, whatsoever, to "meet in the middle" with the other side. In fact, it makes me want to go on the offensive even harder and "fight back".

I'm completely speaking for myself here. Not sure if anyone else feels the same way.

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mudhouse

cyn427: Seriously? The results of the election would not in any way be overturned. If he were to be removed, it would be through constitutional means. The duly elected vice president would become president. That is not negating any election.

Okay. Everybody take a deep breath. Because I didn't understand the repeated objections to what I thought was a straightforward comment, I just did a search, and find that this is a contentious phrase.

I was not aware it's loaded, to some, with political innuendo. I'm not a constitutional scholar, and I think of impeachment (of anyone) as a way to constitutionally overturn (negate, undo) the results of an election. The person I voted for would no longer be president. That's what I mean when I use the phrase. That's what would happen.

I'm using it the way the White House attorneys used it, and the way that Nadler used it, when he discussed the Clinton impeachment (video at this link.) I'm not making a statement about the validity of impeachment as a process. On the contrary, I'm arguing that it's such an important fail safe process to have, we should not abuse or cheapen it, because of what it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJbAQJmg6NU

Nadler: "The effect of impeachment is to overturn the popular will of the voters as expressed in a national election. We must not overturn an election and remove a president from office, except to defend our very system of government or our constitutional liberties against a dire threat, and we must not do so without an overwhelming consensus of the American people and of their representatives in Congress."

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foodonastump

Why does it seem to bother so many of you so very much that others support Trump and don't agree with you about him.


Because we knew you before. Or at least how you presented yourselves.

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mudhouse

Your belief in and frankly, repeated references to, what Fiona Hill and so many others, have described as a russian disinformation campaign, is unnerving to me, no matter why you believe in it.

Well barncatz, it's not my intent to unnerve you, but I have the right to express my opinions here, and I'm going to keep doing that. I think you should do the same.

I am curious; do you think the White House attorneys were also spreading Russian propaganda, when they presented evidence to validate Trump's reasons for seeking information about possible corruption in Ukraine?

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Toby

Because we can't believe that America has come to this: Trumpism.

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Toby

I was never clear on what the concern was about corruption in Ukraine that validated Trump withholding aid. The office that approves the release of that aid said back in June that Ukraine had taken the necessary steps to combat corruption and they gave the go-ahead to release it. So what was Trump and Rudy investigating?

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elvis

I'm using it the way the White House attorneys used it, and the way that Nadler used it, when he discussed the Clinton impeachment

Yep. Maybe now that will be put to rest.

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mudhouse

Lol, elvis, somehow I doubt it. But I have the video of Mr. Nadler ready to share as often as necessary.

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Ann

"Because we knew you before. Or at least how you presented yourselves."

I don't get this answer. If you knew me before, you knew I supported personal responsibility, the smallest and most local government possible, strong borders and orderly legal immigration, low taxes, choice and personal choice, school choice, etc. So, if you knew these things about me, why on earth would you think I would not support Trump?

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Toby

Because at one time we believed the GOP rhetoric that they were the "values voter" party and all that that implied about the type of man they felt was fit for the office of the presidency.

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chipotle

Then they got lucky because a never Trumper working in his administration tipped Schiff off about a phone call with Ukraine, and a whistle blower was born.


Trump's people knew how critical it was to spin that call. Hence the release of the abbreviated version of the actual phone call AFTER the whistleblower shared.


And you know the whistleblower info for a fact or it's something you dreamed up?

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queenmargo

"Because we knew you before. Or at least how you presented yourselves."

I came here presenting my Trump support. I was attacked from the get go.

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chipotle

The office that approves the release of that aid said back in June that Ukraine had taken the necessary steps to combat corruption and they gave the go-ahead to release it. So what was Trump and Rudy investigating?


What indeed?

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Toby

It took us a while to understand that all you needed in a president was a warm body to sign legislation and EOs. The man himself didn't matter. I don't know why you're so critical about our candidates, the supposed Biden or Bernie corruption or Warren misrepresenting her heritage or that Pete is gay. They're going to sign legislation and EOs, just like Trump. That's all we should require of a president from now on.

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Kathy

Trump is imho, dishonest and disloyal to US. He panders to the GOP to keep his power if they have bills he knows will play with his base and to keep them satisfied he will sign them, as long as he has free rein to do his projects behind the scenes.

His whole persona is an act. Religious right, budget conscious, a tough negotiator. None of that is true. It’s an act.

He is a great marketer. He knows his base and he knows how to connect and say what they want to hear. He markets himself as a successful businessman, a great negotiator, and a macho male. He says what he wants to be true, not what is actually true and people believe him. I think he has learned the management style—if you say something with authority people will believe you.

Trump hasn’t done anything any other Republican or Democrat could have done in 3 years and they would have done it better and with a lot less chaos. He has the benefit of a Rep Senate and somehow has managed to coerce them to cover for him. The only thing he did that a Dem would not have done is get Kavanaugh in the SC.

I don’t understand why Republican voters who support Trump cannot see what everyone else sees. He is a criminal. Always has been always will be. Only thing different now he is spending our money instead of borrowed money.

So it’s not about opinions. It’s about Trump ending America as we know it, based on the Constitution and morals most Americans value.



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barncatz

mudhouse, you eloquently post that people shouldn't tell other people what they're saying or thinking; but last night you put quote marks around a phrase I did not write, and now you're responding to my pointing out that you frequently post a Russian propaganda point as if I objected to your opinons. You have the right to your opinions and I didn't say otherwise. If I did, please show me where.

Saying ukraine meddled in our 2016 elections is not an opinion. It is either true or false. It is a proveable fact. And it has been stated that Ukraine did not hack the DNC, as Trump claims, by numerous authorities, experts and State Dept officials, including Trump's former Homeland Security Adviser, Tom Bossert, George Kent, David Hale Fiona Hill, and on and on and on. Fiona Hill:

I have served our country under three presidents: in my most recent capacity under President Trump, as well as in my former position of National Intelligence Officer for Russia and Eurasia under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama. In that role, I was the Intelligence Community’s senior expert on Russia and the former Soviet republics, including Ukraine....

Based on questions and statements I have heard, some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country—and that perhaps, somehow, for some reason, Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves.

And as I told this Committee last month, I refuse to be part of an effort to legitimize an alternate narrative that the Ukrainian government is a U.S. adversary, and that Ukraine—not Russia—attacked us in 2016....

These fictions are harmful even if they are deployed for purely domestic political purposes. President Putin and the Russian security services operate like a Super PAC. They deploy millions of dollars to weaponize our own political opposition research and false narratives.


If Trump's team stated that Ukraine meddled in our 2016 elections, and I don't know that they did or not, yes, they were spreading Russian lies and propaganda.


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“I have a question for Dems on this thread. Why does it seem to bother so many of you so very much that others support Trump and don't agree with you about him.

[clip]

Don't you ever think it's fine to just disagree about who you support and who you don't?”

———

I am not a Dem but I’m going to answer this anyway.

The Republican Party accepts and supports Trump; that acceptance and support flies in the face of what I was raised to believe the Republican Party stands for. I was raised to believe that money (read: the economy) isn’t actually what matters, but that personal responsibility, morality, individual freedom, and self sufficiency are vastly important and that only Republicans could offer those.

I see the acceptance of Trump, who displays none of those, as a 100% contradiction of what I was taught the Republican Party stands for. And it dismays me. I don’t know if I was unintentionally mislead or if things have changed. Then I read the things written here and I do question everything I have been taught about political ideology in the US.

It bothers me because it indicates that everything I believed about politics was a lie, and that’s actually a big deal to me.

It’s absolutely fine to disagree about who you support. I was able to have really great conversations about the Canadian election, even with people who didn’t support the same party that I do (which was most). I enjoy looking at and occasionally participating in conversations about the Democratic primaries even though most people do not support the person I do, and even though none of the candidates actually match my personal ideology fully. When I was 19 years old and starry eyed I had a fantastic conversation about George W. with my husband’s Opa, the first time we met. I voted for Bush and stood by that; he believed Bush was the devil incarnate. Our conversation was civilized and insightful.

I just can’t stomach the Republican Party getting behind Trump. I don’t know yet if it is hypocrisy that it does so, or if I was wrong about it all along, but either of those options is hard for me to swallow.

Thanks for asking. Sincerely.

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queenmargo

The only thing he did that a Dem would not have done is get Kavanaugh in the SC.

OMG- He won the Presidency. HE WON.

Rant and rave all you want.

Now in this comment that I re-posted from you, you say the Dems would have done everything he has done so far, LOL. You know that is not true, if so, why all the squawking?

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Anna

He’s PT Barnum and he learned his craft from the criminal Roy Cohn.

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mudhouse

The office that approves the release of that aid said back in June that Ukraine had taken the necessary steps to combat corruption and they gave the go-ahead to release it. So what was Trump and Rudy investigating?

Toby, do you really think that Ukraine's corruption problem can be resolved in a few months? I think it's probably obvious to everyone, including Zelensky, who ran on a platform of fighting corruption, that changing that problem is a long term project. Two years ago, Ernst and Young said it ranked as the 9th most corrupt country in the world (you can read that at Wikipedia.)

In terms of the possible existence of election meddling, you can start with this 2017 Politico article, by Kenneth Vogel and David Stern:

Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.

Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.

...Politico’s investigation found evidence of Ukrainian government involvement in the race that appears to strain diplomatic protocol dictating that governments refrain from engaging in one another’s elections.

More at the link below:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

I am not stating that election meddling has been proven. I am stating that there was obviously an allegation that election meddling may have existed. The existence of that allegation is partly what White House counsel referred to when they discussed Trump's motivation for asking about investigations in the July 25 phone call.

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foodonastump

I don't get this answer. If you knew me before...

The plural “yourselves” was intended to imply a generic you. I don’t specifically remember you from much before Trump.

Yes the values party. The decrying divisiveness. Heck I can remember watching Obama and thinking, “I do sense a slight arrogance and dismissiveness in his tone that I wish he could avoid when speaking to/about Republicans.“ That’s funny to think about now. I understand there are many priorities like corporate tax cuts and destroying the environment that conservatives will embrace, but given who we thought you (generic) were it would make a lot more sense if you’d be more discriminating doling out your cheers. Even the less consequential stuff, I mean how much did we hear about Obama’s occasional golfing? Again, funny to think about now.

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chipotle

FOAS, funny? Yeah, it's hysterical. Sickeningly so.

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Toby

Do you believe, then, that Trump withheld the aid because he was investigating election meddling in the 2016 election? You seem to believe that withholding aid was justified because of corruption. I'll repeat my question, mudhouse--what did Trump have Rudy investigating that mattered in 2019? The 2016 election?

Also, why was that resolved in a few short months when Trump released the aid in September?

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queenmargo

miss lindsey- when you speak of this:

personal responsibility, morality, individual freedom, and self sufficiency are vastly important and that only Republicans could offer those.

I am a Republican. I believe in these things also.

NO other candidate in the Republican party that was running against Trump to be nominated could have held up to what Trump has endured. The left would have gotten them to cave on issues. Republicans have been weak. We needed a change and we liked what message Trump was sending. We took a chance on change. Real change. We got it in spades ;) Hopefully 4 more years!

miss lindsey if Hillary would have been elected would you be shaming the Hillary voters? She is lacking this morality of which you speak, as is her husband.



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Ann

"He is a great marketer. He knows his base and he knows how to connect and say what they want to hear. He markets himself as a successful businessman, a great negotiator, and a macho male. He says what he wants to be true, not what is actually true and people believe him. I think he has learned the management style—if you say something with authority people will believe you."

I found this to be an interesting paragraph. I agree with the first three sentences. Then, getting to the 4th sentence, he not only says what he wants to be true, but he implements it. Then, to the last sentence, he does say things with authority, he pursues those things in a nonapologetic way, and he gets them done. Then, as a result, many people definitely think he can get the things he says he will done - because he does.

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mudhouse

mudhouse, you eloquently post that people shouldn't tell other people what they're saying or thinking; but last night you put quote marks around a phrase I did not write...

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5860416/kiss-the-republic-goodbye

Sorry barncatz, but I think that's a bit unfair. I'd like to try to straighten that out, again. In the above thread, I wrote this at the end of a long reply to you:

***********************

mudhouse: The other point is, impeachments aren't collections of things we don't like about a president. Investigation can be multi-faceted, but the final articles of impeachment have to be specific, and backed up by evidence. Implying that "there was other stuff going on" doesn't cut it when you're talking about impeachment.

barncatz: I don't understand this if it refers to my post, mudhouse. And I'm not sure why it's in quotes or who you're quoting, but it's not me and, sorry, not something I was implying.

mudhouse: Yeah... I agree I made it confusing when I put that part in quotes, and I'm sorry. I was actually trying to indicate that I wasn't quoting you, and I was just trying to rephrase what I thought you were saying. So when you said:

"The "perfect phone call" was only one of the many facets of the "drug deal" .

...Could you expand on what you mean? I did lump it together with another comment that vgkg (?) made to me in another thread days ago, that I've been thinking about, and maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning.

*************************

And after my apology for causing confusion, and my clarification about why I used those quotation marks, you chose not to reply. Instead of replying, it appeared that you added one sentence to your post above mine. I really had no problem with that at all! But is it necessary to call me out for that bit of confusion, in another thread?

I think I may have answered your question about Ukrainian meddling in the 2016 election in my post above to Toby, but I'll reread your post more carefully now to be sure.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

Queenmargo, I have never seen miss Lindsey shame Trump voters. She argues about issues and makes observations about Trump, but I have not seen her discredit Trump voters in any way.

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Ann

"I just can’t stomach the Republican Party getting behind Trump. I don’t know yet if it is hypocrisy that it does so, or if I was wrong about it all along, but either of those options is hard for me to swallow."

The good news for you is that you don't have to stomach it. We Trump supporters don't care if you feel differently than we do. And, you don't have to swallow either of your guesses. You could just realize not everyone sees it as you do. Your opinion is fine and so is mine:)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“miss lindsey if Hillary would have been elected would you be shaming the Hillary voters?”

No, because I don’t engage in shaming. Expressing my opinions and explaining my philosophy and sharing my background should not be a basis of shame for anyone and I don’t intend them as such.

I have never, ever, ever been a Hillary supporter and I thought it was a mistake to give her the nomination. But this conversation isn’t about Hillary’s morality or lack thereof, it’s about Trump’s.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“The good news for you is that you don't have to stomach it.”

You’re right, I can vote for a different party. Would that there was more than one other option but alas, ’tis not to be.

Can the Republican Party stand to loose everyone who thinks like me? That remains to be seen.

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Ann

"Now in this comment that I re-posted from you, you say the Dems would have done everything he has done so far, LOL. You know that is not true, if so, why all the squawking?"

Absolutely! To think a president of the Dem party and a president of the Republican party would do the same things is ridiculous. The party policies are extremely different. Margo is right, if that were true, the party not in the White House would be perfectly happy instead of very dissatisfied with the agenda of the president in office at the time.

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queenmargo

But this conversation isn’t about Hillary’s morality or lack thereof, it’s about Trump’s.

Yes, and you can talk all day long about his morality, and I will say that what he offers this country and its people far outweigh his marital affairs and some questionable business practices. Most business moguls experience bankruptcies, find loopholes, engage in some dirty tactics, and have endless lawsuits as they have big pockets. All this was no surprise to us.


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elvis

And as I told this Committee last month, I refuse to be part of an effort to legitimize an alternate narrative that the Ukrainian government is a U.S. adversary, and that Ukraine—not Russia—attacked us in 2016....

Ukraine meddling, Russia meddling. They are not mutually exclusive. Duh.

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queenmargo

Zalco/bring back Sophie!

Queenmargo, I have never seen miss Lindsey shame Trump voters. She argues about issues and makes observations about Trump, but I have not seen her discredit Trump voters in any way.

OK, thank you Zalco, for the nice way of telling me this.

I guess I have read so much shaming that I stated it wrong. Sorry miss lindsey.

How about asking if you would be on here siding with the right side against Hillary?

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mudhouse

barncatz, getting back to Ukraine and Russia. From your post, quoting Hill:

Hill: Based on questions and statements I have heard, some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country—and that perhaps, somehow, for some reason, Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves.

To be clear, just because people are alleging that election meddling may have occurred in Ukraine doesn't mean that election meddling didn't occur in Russia. It's not an either/or situation, is it? Do we really think that only one country at a time is trying to influence our elections?

Personally, I've never said that Russia didn't try to meddle in our election. I have expressed doubts about how effective it was, and how great the impact was, but I don't doubt at all that Russia meddled in the election; I think that's pretty well been proven.

I don't believe I'm repeating Russian propaganda when I post about the possibility of Ukrainian election meddling. It has been reported, and discussed in places other than the Politico article as well, but I posted that source because it's generally accepted here.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“How about asking if you would be on here siding with the right side against Hillary?”

I’m not sure what you’re asking me here. Like I said before I have never been a Hillary supporter.

Do I have to “side” with anyone? Can’t I just say what I think and agree or disagree with folks as issues come up?

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Ann

"Real change. We got it in spades ;)"

Yes we did, and far more than I ever dreamed we would. This president knows how to get things done. MAGA!

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barncatz

To be clear, just because people are alleging that election meddling may have occurred in Ukraine doesn't mean that election meddling didn't occur in Russia.

Russia meddled. Ukraine did not.

Do we really think that only one country at a time is trying to influence our elections?

This is not the issue we are disagreeing on, nor am I discussing your hypothetical speculation about how many countries may theoretically be trying to interfere, so let's speculate that Ukraine is or was or might be among them, without any factual basis, because anything is possible.

There is no factual basis for your continued assertion that Ukraine may have meddled in our election, or as you said, "election meddling may have occurred in Ukraine".

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queenmargo

Do I have to “side” with anyone?

No, you do not have to "side" with anyone. Just sayin' how it appears lol

Can’t I just say what I think and agree or disagree with folks as issues come up?

Sure unless someone takes flagging into their own hands. right?

Where's Hay ;)




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Ann

"I have never, ever, ever been a Hillary supporter and I thought it was a mistake to give her the nomination. But this conversation isn’t about Hillary’s morality or lack thereof, it’s about Trump’s."

Okay, but the choice in 2016 boiled down to a binary choice - Hillary or Trump. Just like in 2020, it will again boil down to a binary choice.

So, in a situation where a person like you might have a problem with "morality" of both candidates (I'm leaving 3rd party candidates out of this for the obvious reason that I think that is a wasted vote), one can vote for one, vote for the other, or not vote. I'll always vote in a general election, so the not vote option is out of the question for me. I had no idea what to expect from the unusual nominee, Donald Trump. But, I've been blown away by his ability to accomplish great change for this country. I simply can't wait to vote for him agian!!!! But, importantly to this conversation, I don't care who you vote for. That's your decision.

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Ann

"Can the Republican Party stand to loose everyone who thinks like me? That remains to be seen."

My guess is in 2020, yes. I think Trump will win.

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mudhouse

Okay, barncatz, I understand your position on the issue. I'm going to keep an open mind on the topic, based on reporting that it may have occurred. Maybe more information will come to light.

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barncatz

And after my apology for causing confusion, and my clarification about why I used those quotation marks, you chose not to reply. Instead of replying, you added one sentence to your post above mine.

Mudhouse, again, honestly, I have no idea what you are referring to with adding one sentence to my post above yours. You've lost me.

...when I put that part in quotes, and I'm sorry. I was actually trying to indicate that I wasn't quoting you, ...

I didn't see that explanation as requiring a response last night.

Could you expand on what you mean?

I guess I should have replied, I'd rather not, thank you. DH is out of town and I'm wrangling animals by myself and I think I just ...didn't. I apologize for not replying to let you know I was too tired.

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Kathy

it Might not be anyone’s decision who is elected. It might be decided by China or Israel or Russia. It might be decided by Trump himself. We are in uncharted territory. We have a president who doesn’t have integrity. Like Putin, he may decide who takes over. Don’t think it is impossible.

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queenmargo

IF it were up to the Dems, it would be decided by dead people,lol

So Kathy if a Dem gets elected, will you say it was China, Russia, or Israel? Will Russia even be a concern anymore? Will Putin still be trending in the minds of liberals, or will it just simply all fade away?

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elvis

Ukraine Court Rules Manafort Disclosure Caused ‘Meddlingin U.S. Election MOSCOW — A court in Ukraine has ruled that officials in the country violated the law by revealing, during the 2016 presidential election in the United States, details of suspected illegal payments to Paul Manafort.

Ukraine Court Rules Manafort Disclosure Caused ‘Meddling ...

www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“We Trump supporters don't care if you feel differently than we do.”

“But, importantly to this conversation, I don't care who you vote for.”

Duly noted.

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mudhouse

I'd like to apologize for my part in contributing to any confusion, barncatz; I enjoy posting with you, and I hope we're good.

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elvis

So far, there is no direct evidence that the DNC’s Ukraine operation overlapped with the work of the Steele dossier. But Leshchenko was identified in congressional testimony in 2018 as a source of information Fusion GPS, the firm that hired Steele to collect information on Trump.

Nellie Ohr, who worked for Fusion GPS during the election season, testified on Oct. 18 that Leshchenko was a Fusion GPS source, though she said she did not have insight into how the firm gathered information from the Ukrainian lawmaker.

https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/10/ukraine-zelensky-investigate-ukrainian-meddling/

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Kathy

Margo, I was saying our election is not guaranteed to be the decision of American voters. We have no assurance. Trump has left the door wide open for meddling and yes, China might want a Democrat. That shoe might just be on the other foot.

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queenmargo

Kathy- how has Trump left the door wide open for meddling?

I think it was Obama.

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barncatz

mudhouse, I appreciate that very much. It's all good. I'm going to go shake hay out of my pockets now and collapse. Have a good night.

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barncatz

Ukraine meddling, Russia meddling. They are not mutually exclusive. Duh.

No, but only one is Russian propaganda.

And saying 'duh' in response to Fiona Hill's testimony does not make her look stupid.

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cattyles

“ I am curious; do you think the White House attorneys were also spreading Russian propaganda, when they presented evidence to validate Trump's reasons for seeking information about possible corruption in Ukraine?”


Yes. They lied and spread Russian propaganda. And they presented no evidence. They lied numerous times.

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mudhouse

Thanks for the answer, cattyles. I don't agree, but it helps me understand where people are coming from, in their responses.

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elvis

The author of the OP article seems like an awfully nice person, surely intent on bringing America together. Snaps for Mandy. According to Salon :

Amanda Marcotte is a politics writer for Salon who covers American politics, feminism and culture. Her new book, "Troll Nation: How The Right Became Trump-Worshipping Monsters Set On Rat-F---ing Liberals, America, and Truth Itself," is out now. She's based out of Brooklyn and can be followed on Twitter @AmandaMarcotte.

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Ann

My goodness, Amanda Marcotte. Awfully nice indeed.

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mudhouse

Catchy title.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"personal responsibility, morality, individual freedom, and self sufficiency are vastly important and that only Republicans could offer those."

"I am a Republican. I believe in these things also."

------------------------

The point is that Trump does not believe in any of those things. In fact, he is the denial of all those values--but Trumpsters are blind to the anti-values he stands for and practices.

By the way, Democrats also believe in those values, but Repubs. refuse to acknowledge that also.

What a deal: Repubs besmirching those who share so many of their values, but embracing--even worshipping--a man who tramples on those values almost daily!

~

I had a question earlier that everyone has ignored.

What would a president have to do for you (generic) to consider him deserving of impeachment AND removal?

I get the impression that some of you would forgive a Repub. almost any action rather than remove him from office.

Kate

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Stan Areted


"I get the impression that some of you would forgive a Repub. almost any action rather than remove him from office.

Kate"


Why the disparaging speculation about the morals of Trump supporters that participate on this forum? Talk about judgment of others!

Grossly out of line as well as irrelevant.


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Rina

Definitely not irrelevant to the issue of what drives Trump loyalty. I partially agree with Kate, but I don't think it would apply to any Republican. Granted, it is speculation, but on the basis, when it comes to Trump, of a seemingly endless stream of evidence that anything he does would be forgiven for the cause of loyalty. Even if I had been thoroughly pro-trump -- pro-anyone -- the constant lying alone would have turned me against him within a few months. There are times when someone in his position can't avoid lying, but I really despise habitual, trivial, non-stop liars. And I couldn't be loyal to someone I despise. Not possible. There are so many other things that have made me think that decent human beings will not stand for this. But ...

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Stan Areted

But what?

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Stan Areted

Rina:

Definitely not irrelevant to the issue of what drives Trump loyalty. I partially agree with Kate, but I don't think it would apply to any Republican. Granted, it is speculation, but on the basis, when it comes to Trump, of a seemingly endless stream of evidence that anything he does would be forgiven for the cause of loyalty. Even if I had been thoroughly pro-trump -- pro-anyone -- the constant lying alone would have turned me against him within a few months. There are times when someone in his position can't avoid lying, but I really despise habitual, trivial, non-stop liars. And I couldn't be loyal to someone I despise. Not possible. There are so many other things that have made me think that decent human beings will not stand for this. But ...


Why be concerned with being loyal to someone you despised?

Who asked you to be?

Why would anyone despise another human?

Why would you despise President Trump, if that is your point?

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foodonastump

But what?

But they have.

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Stan Areted

My comments were directed to Rina, the last word of the post.

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Stan Areted

Why so much handwringing and angst over imagined worries?

Why so much judgment about the morals and characters of others-- fellow citizens-- and even some character judgment from people that aren't even fellow citizens of the U.S.about our support of OUR candidate?

We survived Obama--EIGHT YEARS.

However, we would not have if Donald Trump had not been elected PRESIDENT.

I encourage people to be tolerant when they do not get their way.

I encourage people not not disparage others for voting for the candidate of THEIR choice and supporting that candidate because what some think is not what others think and what some think to be the truth is simply not--and not for others.

There is so much subjectivity it is wrong to assume one's subjective opinion is the only right one.

Tolerance will solve that and relieve unneeded angst in those hyper involved with judging others.

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foodonastump

It’s a big ask to be tolerant of a “leader” who disparages half the country on a daily basis. But it’s an impossible ask for me to be tolerant of someone who is inflicting permanent environmental damage. And who’s setting up for an authoritarian government. Once we lose our system of checks and balances, good luck getting it back.

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Ann

It's hard to argue personal responsibility and self sufficiency aren't in better shape than maybe ever because of the booming job market, rising wages, and extremely low unemployment. Everyone who chooses to work can in this market. Not only can they work, but they can advance. Workers are in demand. Good workers can easily get better jobs and better salaries right now. To even think Trump doesn't promote self sufficiency and hasn't provided great personal responsibility opportunities for citizens is absurd.

Just as absurd is thinking it's an authoritarian government. I have all sorts of freedoms to make political choices, and that's just the way I want to keep it. Just because it might infuriate some that lots of people will want the policies Trump is offering, doesn't mean I can't choose to vote for the Dem candidate. Herein lies the problem for Dems. Why would I? What are any of the Dems offering that would prompt me to vote for them? Actually, that's not a serious question for a conservative like me, but ask yourselves that same question about an undecided moderate who is doing very well right now - someone who has a good new job and has been able to upgrade their home and the living situation for their family in the last year or so. Or, ask yourselves that same question for a man who was in prison, has been released, and is now back with his family, employed, and has been given a second chance at a good life for him and his family.

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Rina

Haven't read the intervening posts, but I want to reply to Stan's questions:

Why be concerned with being loyal to someone you despised?

I'm not. I couldn't be loyal to someone I despised, because to do that would be to support actions I find despicable.


Who asked you to be?

Silly question. Nobody. My point is that no matter what despicable things Trump does, he does not lose the loyalty of his fans. 'Tis a puzzlement.


Why would anyone despise another human?

That would make more sense as: "Why would anyone despise a thing or creature who is not human?" The emotion is part of moral discernment, a measure of the degree to which one regards a person as worthy of respect by reason of their own willed actions. At the extreme, anyone who does not despise the monsters who ran and staffed Auschwitz is a moral blank, at best. And then one can go up the scale from that nadir. It is a sensible, logical emotion that probably evolved as we did, as the functional and useful opposite of admiration. The two help us distinguish between the people we can trust, and those we can't -- those we should support, and those we should oppose.


Why would you despise President Trump, if that is your point?

The list is very long. Just a few things that come to mind immediately: the lying; the bragging about grabbing p....; his contemptuous treatment of Khizr and Ghazala Khan, who were and I'm sure still are grieving for their son who died in the service of the United States; his dismissal of Senator McCain's sufferings as a prisoner of war; his willingness to foul America's air, water and soil and damage its national parks in pursuit of profit; the fact that he even thinks of using his position to profit himself and his family by increasing business at their hotels and resorts; his grotesque mockery of a physically handicapped man ... and like that.

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Rina

Sorry, I missed the "But what?"

But it seems millions of people do stand for that kind of behaviour, they look the other way, downplay it, or pretend that what we've seen and heard ourselves is fake news. I can't possibly dismiss that many people as being not decent, so I do not understand the phenomenon. "He gives me what I want" just reminds me of what Faust might have said about Mephistopheles.

ETA: please note that to despise someone doesn't mean to hate them. I think hate goes along with wishing someone ill, and I don't wish the man ill. Justice would be nice, but if that's not to be, okay. I just wish I'd never heard of him.

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Ann

"I had a question earlier that everyone has ignored.

What would a president have to do for you (generic) to consider him deserving of impeachment AND removal?

I get the impression that some of you would forgive a Repub. almost any action rather than remove him from office."

It's just one of those questions like the others the Dems want to hammer for no reason. Nothing Trump has done is impeachable despite endless efforts. Nothing most presidents do is impeachable, but it seems to be the new thing. It wasn't ever meant to become some new norm. We have a norm and it's called winning an election. That's how one becomes president and voting is the way people keep or change that next time around. It's simple. "remove" "from office" is done by a term expiring and another person being voted in. This "impeachment" is over and it was a ploy that didn't work out. But, there is an election coming up and it is a guarantee that someone will remain or become president as a result of that election. That's how it works and how it was intended to work. So, if you want a different president, find a good candidate who offers policy the voters are inspired to vote for, run a good campaign, garner enthusiasm, and win the election. That's how you remove a person from office.

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Ann

"Why be concerned with being loyal to someone you despised?

Who asked you to be?

Why would anyone despise another human?

Why would you despise President Trump, if that is your point?"

This is an excellent point. For example, we get you don't like Trump. That's fine, don't like him. American citizens who don't like him can choose to not vote for him, also fine. But, to be stuck in an endless loop of bashing Trump and bashing those who support him is completely unproductive (IMO) to getting the outcome one might want (of a different president). In order to do that in 2020, you need a candidate, good policy proposals, a message, and enthusiasm to attract voters.

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Ann

"Trump supporters are not republicans."

This is getting a little silly. If Trump had 10% or even 50% of Republican support, I'd say you have a point. But, Trump has about 90% of Republican support (which is a historically high number for party support of a candidate). Therefore Trump supporters are Republicans and Republicans are Trump supporters - and in quite a large percentage of cases.

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Ann

"Silly question. Nobody. My point is that no matter what despicable things Trump does, he does not lose the loyalty of his fans. 'Tis a puzzlement."

No need to worry about puzzlement. It may be your opinion that he does despicable things, but it's not mine. Puzzlement solved:)

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Ann

Oh boy, now we have "creature" folks. The emotion of people on this thread is getting a little carried away.

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Nana H

It is appears to me that there are three camps in the Republican party. Those who support him in all he says and does no matter what , those Republicans who don't want to see a Democrat in the WH so tolerate him even though they find him truly offensive and then those who loathe what he is doing to the country and the Repubican party.

The better polls break down those who fully approve, some what approve and totally disapprove. When you look at the break downs you can see he is not quite as wildly popular as some would like us to think.

I'm not saying that will necessarily translate to votes just that in many Republicans eyes he isn't as miraculous as some others think he is.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

You dodged that question, didn't you, Ann!

Your evasiveness or refusal to face the question directly is amazing! You know very well that I was asking about removal from office due to being impeached.

Or are you really saying that you would NEVER impeach AND remove a president from office for any reason whatsoever? That you can think of NOTHING a president could do that in your eyes would justify impeaching AND removing him (her) from office?

If that is not true, then give us an idea of where you might draw the line over which, in your opinion, the president should not step. Or can he do no wrong deserving of impeachment AND removal, in your eyes?

Kate

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queenmargo

Good morning, there seems to be quite a fracas going on within this thread, lol.

After reading, it seems to me the easiest way to deal with this whole thing is leave the Trump supporting *loyalty* a mystery. Let it go. Just be puzzled;)

This "loyalty" was bought and paid for by the DNC and all its supporters aka Hillary and all the other Trump bashers.

I would rather be called all those names on here if they could be posted, than ever vote for a Dem after my experience on here.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

To set the record straight, it is not a matter of not "liking" Trump.

I LOATHE and DESPISE him and many of his policies.

And I would guess that many other voters agree with me.

Kate

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queenmargo

If that is not true, then give us an idea of where you might draw the line over which, in your opinion, the president should not step. Or can he do no wrong deserving of impeachment AND removal, in your eyes?

How about if he shot someone on 5th avenue.

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Ann

:)

Have you read this thread, Kathy!

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Ann, where did you get the idea that my purpose on HT was to "generate interesting and active HT conversation"?

I genuinely want to know if Trump supporters will draw no line over which a president could step --and thus deserve impeachment AND punishment (removal).

The Repub. silence on that issue is stunning.

And leaves me to conclude that perhaps you would oppose impeaching/removing a president (or just a Repub. president?) for any reason.

Kate

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Kate, I find it an extremely silly hypothetical question and not one worthy of an answer.

I've asked a few hypothetical questions here on HT, though rarely get an answer due to it being "silly". People feel uncomfortable in answering them because the question makes them look deep inside of themselves and their answer doesn't' agree with their outer self. Easier to just brush them off.

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Rina

Ann:

It's simple. "remove" "from office" is done by a term expiring and another person being voted in.

If you don't believe impeachment is a way to remove a president from office (if it's deserved, of course) then why do you think it's in the Constitution? I think it's there so that the country can rid itself of a president whose behaviour is grossly out of line with what one might expect of an ordinarily decent person in that office.

No need to worry about puzzlement. It may be your opinion that he does despicable things, but it's not mine. Puzzlement solved:)

No it's not. The puzzlement is how you could possibly not find his behaviour -- at least the things I mentioned in that tiny tip of an iceberg I listed -- despicable. It couldn't happen by any moral standard I can possibly understand.

By the way, I don't think I'm bashing Trump, nor am I bashing his supporters. I am observing them and describing them as I see them. I don't like bashing. I see it as overstating the case. For instance, I wouldn't call Trump a monster, because I don't think he is. Idi Amin, I would call a monster (to avoid the usual suspects).

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queenmargo

I am not coy Kate, I answered, but I guess my hypothetical answer was not worthy. LOL, see, how silly it is ;)

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"How about if he shot someone on 5th avenue."

Margo, I already asked that question earlier in this thread (did you read it?).

Trump says his followers would not turn against him even if he shot someone on 5th Avenue. I assume that means they also would not impeach/remove him from office for the same offense.

What I'm trying to get at in this thread is why Trump supporters won't even commit to murder on 5th Avenue as being an impeachable/removable offense--with the exception of you, Margo. I give you credit for that--unless you were just being smart alecky.

Kate

ETA: Margo, please give a person time to respond to your post before you jump on her. As you can see, this post acknowledges your response. The intervening phonecall slowed me down in getting my response to you posted.

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foodonastump

I genuinely want to know if Trump supporters will draw no line over which a president could step --and thus deserve impeachment AND punishment (removal).

The Repub. silence on that issue is stunning.

I used to ask this question but in retrospect I don’t think it’s a fair one. They’d surely impeach him if he authorized dropping a nuke on California. Or if he shot Pelosi on the House floor. And surely actions less drastic than those would warrant impeachment, even in their eyes. What you’re essentially asking for is a specific red line, and that’s fairly impossible to draw in hypothetical terms.

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Ann

"People feel uncomfortable in answering them because the question makes them look deep inside of themselves and their answer doesn't' agree with their outer self. Easier to just brush them off."

Whew, glad we now all understand exactly why someone on a social media forum chooses to answer or to not answer any particular question. This "People feel" kind of reminds me of a statement beginning with "We all agree" - to which my husband always has his same impulse reaction and says, "We do?".

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Ann

"No it's not. The puzzlement is how you could possibly not find his behaviour -- at least the things I mentioned in that tiny tip of an iceberg I listed -- despicable. It couldn't happen by any moral standard I can possibly understand."

Oh, is your not understanding my "moral standard" the puzzlement?

"By the way, I don't think I'm bashing Trump, nor am I bashing his supporters."

Ummm, okay Rina:)


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queenmargo

Margo, I already asked that question earlier in this thread (did you read it?).

Trump says his followers would not turn against him even if he shot someone on 5th Avenue. I assume that means they also would not impeach/remove him from office for the same offense.

What I'm trying to get at in this thread is why Trump supporters won't even commit to murder on 5th Avenue as being an impeachable/removable offense--with the exception of you, Margo. I give you credit for that--unless you were just being smart alecky.

Kate, I probably read it earlier but when I come on in the morning I don't re-read the thread. I pick it up where it left off. That Trump comment has been made on so many threads.

Just because Trumps SAYS something like that does not mean Trump would do something like that. We get his humor, WE DO!


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Nana H

"The puzzlement is how you could possibly not find his
behaviour -- at least the things I mentioned in that tiny tip of an
iceberg I listed -- despicable. It couldn't happen by any moral standard
I can possibly understand."

Rina, I agree completely. It is a huge puzzlement to me how anyone can find his behavior acceptable. There is no way I could ever be supportive of anyone who demonstrates the values, or rather the lack there of, Trump displays. The lying would be enough for me to but the insults, name calling and bullying is a bridge too far.

The only conclusion I can come to is exactly what I've seen expressed here, they don't find it offensive, they are OK with it. Yet when you say they share his values they get their backs up.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Food, I am not suggesting that Trump followers come up with a definitive list of what they consider impeachable/removable offenses. I am asking for a couple examples that "illustrate" what that line might consist of, in their eyes. The examples could even be qualified with a "perhaps" or "maybe" or some such word. That would at least give readers some sense of the thinking of Trump supporters on this issue.

As it is, other than Margo's response, what I see is a refusal to take any position on impeachment AND removal--leaving me to still wonder if the Repubs., after impeaching and failing to remove Clinton from office, no longer believe in the impeachment process at all.

Kate

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queenmargo

Kate I just played your game. It almost is like brainstorming to find something that would be plausible to get an impeachment against Trump. Has Schiff sent out a memo for this? Does he need some new material?

Gee, hope there is not a Trump double out there willing to take on this shooting someone on 5th avenue to frame the REAL Donald Trump.

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foodonastump

Kate - But if it’s a drastic offense, it’s meaningless. If it’s something slightly less than drastic then it’ll still appear like they’ll allow pretty much anything. The only meaningful response would be something that’s close to a red line, and I’m not sure if or how I’d answer the question if asked of me.

I understand interest in having the question answered, but I don’t see how it can be answered in a way as meaningful as you’d like.

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queenmargo

Ann, this thread reminds me a bit of the good old days on the Houzz side when we got into politics, lol, they came fast and furious at us, lol.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"Just because Trumps SAYS something like that does not mean Trump would do something like that. We get his humor, WE DO!"

Margo, you are missing the point I'm trying to make. I have never suggested that Trump would actually shoot someone on 5th Avenue. And it may surprise you, but I even get the "humor" of his way of describing the loyalty of his followers.

What is appalling is the implication that, from the viewpoint of his followers, he can do no wrong--and how he basks in that uncritical adulation.

But that is only tangentially related to the issue I'm trying to get addressed here. I am not accusing Trump of anything nor am I trying to trap anyone into saying something they will regret later.

I have been keeping the question general and hypothetical so that we could keep our focus on the general issue and not on the actions of a specific man. For the sake of argument, let's say we have a Dem. president and some Republicans want to impeach him/her. Would you refuse to remove him/her from office through the impeachment process for any reason? Or is there a line you would draw (let's say "murder"--anything less?) that the Dem. president would have commit before you would agree to go the impeachment route?

Kate

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Good Luck Kate

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Hey, do I get credit for trying, vgkg? : )

---------------

"It almost is like brainstorming to find something that would be plausible to get an impeachment against Trump."

That is NOT what I was trying to do, Margo. I'm asking about a general principle--as I have said several times already.

Would you impeach/remove from office any president for any reason?

Is that general enough?

My final attempt. Answer or not, as you please.

Kate

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Rina

This thread is moving a bit too quickly for me to cope, but again to Ann:

Oh, is your not understanding my "moral standard" the puzzlement?

Heck, yes! Yours and millions of others -- whom I don't expect are carbon copies of you, so don't assume that. No doubt there are many variations to this puzzlement.

ETA: Define "bashing" as you want to. What can I do about it? Nutting.

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queenmargo

. No doubt there are many variations to this puzzlement.

and no doubt there are many variations to this "loyalty" or as I prefer to call it support;)

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Ann

"My final attempt. Answer or not, as you please."

Now you're getting it.

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queenmargo

LOL Ann, nuf said;))

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foodonastump

LOL I’d think the last last “general” question would be general enough for anyone to answer “yes” too! If not we’re in big, big trouble here!

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foodonastump

Oh wait, never mind. Its meaning is ambiguous.

Would you impeach/remove from office any president for any reason?

Answering yes to removing for ANY reason would mean farting could be an impeachable offense.

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Ann

"Answering yes to removing for ANY reason would mean farting could be an impeachable offense."

Lol! Again, I've found the variations of the question silly from the first time it was asked, but I think we may have reached the point where farting has become an impeachable offense in the eyes of some. Some seem to forget that winning an election is the way it works rather than endless ploys to remove a president who did, indeed, win an election - but dang, they don't like the result. So, they must be REMOVED!

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Groan--you're not funny, food! : (

For the obtuse, obviously I meant "for any reason you care to name."

Bye-bye, I'm bored. : )

Kate

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queenmargo

Outwit outlast outplay ;)

Trump supporters won the immunity challenge')

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queenmargo

I am glad Kate conceded as it is going to be 60 degrees here today and I want to go out and cut down a tree...... timber....... so I guess I will cut and run myself....

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Kathy

Hillary was a Saint compared to Trump yet she was demonized for 30 years by the right and Fox. We will never even know the depth of his corrupters for years to come. It is global corruption, imho.

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Joaniepoanie

How many times must the right be told that it’s not about losing the election before they cease repeating this ad nauseum?! If that were the case Dems would have tried to impeach Ford, Reagan and both Bushes.

Insert a list of all Trump’s “infractions” here (calling them impeachable is apparently blasphemous to Trumpers) —-from violation of the Emoluments Clause to bribing a foreign leader to help win the next election——it’s good to know that future Dem presidents can commit the same and there will be no consequences. Thanks!

Oh, and let’s not forget that Repubs were talking before the election about impeaching Hillary if she won, as well as continuing the obstruction on everything like they did with Obama. The difference was—-Dems knew Trump was corrupt before the election and would most likely continue his evil ways, and he did. Republicans had not been able to pin anything on Hillary after 25 years but were still talking about impeaching her. So, stop repeating the lie that it was just Dems out to get Trump.



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olliesmom

Joaniepoanie

How many times must the right be told that it’s not about losing the election before they cease repeating this ad nauseum?!

^^^^^

About as many times as we hear about Trump and the grabbing-THAT HE NEVER DID, he just said he could if he wanted.

Which in turn, brings me to this...

One HAS to consider the "times" we are in right now. It is unfortunate that the media and social media, facebook, instagram and twitter is at an all time high in providing way too much info than we even had in the Obama years, not to mention way back.

Information comes FAST and FURIOUS! Pics can be manipulated and fake, or not. We never know for sure.

And, another thing, sex is no big deal anymore. Anything goes now. And, that is the way Dems want it. Everyone is their own person and should be able to live that way, with no boundaries. Live and let live. Except Trump. So, since things have been going that way now, sexual things that was said by Trump is not that big a deal anymore. It only matters to Dems, because Trump said it! And, we know everything Trump says, because...

.......at one time, things that were done or told in confidence, or you thought was told in confidence, are no longer. Most people, and I would say a good deal of politicians, have some sort of skeleton(s) in their closet. We have to be a little more forgiving now, because people aren't as perfect as the image people in office in the past, projected and led us to believe. For instance, look at Kennedy and MLK-as great a public figures as they were-can you imagine their personal lives in today's world??

So, if some of us are more forgiving of Trump's personal life, we were sort of forced to be more forgiving, because the Dems changed the boundaries.

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Ann

Excellent points Elvis.

Kate and Kathy, as I've discussed often on HT, all posters are here voluntarily. We read, discuss, answer, and ignore any comments we wish to. That's the way forums like this work. Some comments and some questions grab my attention and thought. Others are uninteresting. Still others seem silly or worthless to me.

This repeated question of what could someone do to make me think they deserve to be impeached wouldn't interest me with any president of either party. It reminds me of this kind of question - What could your spouse do to make you divorce and sue them? Or, what could your family member do to make you disown them? Or, what could your coworker do to make you report them to HR? I wouldn't waste time with discussing any hypothetical like these. But, that's not to say others might not disagree and really enjoy that type of hypothetical conversation. We're all different in what kinds of conversations interest or attract us.

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Kathy

So, if some of us are more forgiving of Trump's personal life, we were forced to be more forgiving, because the Dems changed the boundaries.


I’ve heard all the excuses for supporting criminal Trump now. That just takes the cake.

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olliesmom

Kathy, criminal??? I never said anything about criminal. And, criminal is your OPINION, not mine.

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Kathy

Ollie, it is my opinion Trump’s activities are criminal. The Reps are excusing all his activities not just his sexual activities. If we look at sexual activities the Reps are just as guilty as Dems. The difference is they are better at hiding their proclivities behind the mask of right wing self-righteousness.

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olliesmom

Oh...okay. LOL


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Toby

When I was a kid I went to the 1964 World's Fair and saw the animatronic Abe Lincoln. Since Trump followers don't need a moral leader or a world leader or a statesman, just someone who can pass the bills they support, we might as well replace Trump, with all his character flaws, with an animatronic version. We'd just need to put a Sharpie in its hand and let it sign stuff. If they could make Lincoln stand up and talk in 1964, they should be able to make Trumpatronic sign a paper in 2020. That's why Trump supporters claim they voted for him and why the rest doesn't matter.

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olliesmom

Toby, no that is what Dems want-a robot.

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justerrilynn(10)

It’s funny reading through this thread. Gee, if only the right leaning Independents and Republicans were more moldable lol.

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Toby

I don't think Trump's done one bit of research into any of our issues. That's why he's said he didn't know how hard health care would be. He has no depth of knowledge yet thinks he's an expert on everything. I don't have to remind you of all the times he's flipped his stance because someone got his ear at the last minute. Stephen Miller writes all the immigration policies. Jared did prison reform and the Mideast "peace" plan. The Federalist Society picked his Supreme Court nominees. Obama passed that veteran's medical bill that Trump takes credit for.

The only original idea Trump has ever had was to build a wall all along the Mexico border.

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justerrilynn(10)

Somebody hasn’t been paying attention.

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Toby

Trump is good at undoing things, I'll give him that. A robot could do that though.

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ubro(2a)

So, if some of us are more forgiving of Trump's personal life, we were forced to be more forgiving, because the Dems changed the boundaries.

No one forces you to do anything, and excusing Trump's personal transgressions a) to tick off the dems or b) blindly follow a cult leader are, IMO a juvenile response.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

They’d surely impeach him if he authorized dropping a nuke on California. Or if he shot Pelosi on the House floor.

Some supporters would claim that California, Pelosi forced Trump to take such drastic measures.

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Anna

I often thought if Obama had done one of the gazillion infractions trump has, the right would be spitting nails. Obama had zero scandals, no one jailed. He had an IQ 100 points higher than Donnie, yet he had the nerve to wear a tan suit.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Bicker, bicker bicker 😝

Of course there is no hypothetical that would cause anyone who's a fan of our president to turn against him - which does not mean that there cannot be a future occurrence that eventually will. Why would anything imaginary do that, when it is clear that this guy's proven criminality and vulgarity are being ignored, and even more likely, disbelieved?

None so blind as those who will not see.

I think it's fair to say that the continual and varied defenses of truly egregious words and actions by our president is one way to determine what is valued by such defenders.

P.S. I am a Democrat, and I am not bothered about other people supporting our president. What bothers me is that so many of those supporters emulate his insensitive, bullying words, attitude, and behavior. That, and the fact that he is dirtying up our White House, and defying and defiling our Constitution.

P.P.S. The guy barely won on a technicality. Why act like it was some sort of a landslide? Is that why folks - and Mr.Trump - get so defensive about his win?

P.P.P.S. Perhaps it would be a good idea to note the user names of those who use offending epithets, rather than attack an entire group (or the wrong user) in retaliation.

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Ann

"The better polls break down those who fully approve, some what approve and totally disapprove. When you look at the break downs you can see he is not quite as wildly popular as some would like us to think."

I just read this comment this morning (on this thread). I didn't think much of it at the time but, coincidentally, I just read an article about a brand new NBC poll, that happens to break down Trump approval into "strongly" and "somewhat" approve. In that new poll, his approval is at 46% and his "strongly" approve hit its high of three years.

"Also in the poll, 46 percent of voters approve of President Trump’s job performance, which is consistent with the other NBC/WSJ polls over the past year and a half.

But other numbers in the survey — his “strong” job approval ticking up to its all-time high, his positive rating jumping to its highest level since after his inauguration — prompts GOP pollster Bill McInturff of Public Opinion Strategies to call this Trump’s best NBC/WSJ poll in three years."

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Ann

"The guy barely won on a technicality."

Huh? What technicality?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Less than 80K votes for an electoral college win of 77 votes is what I call barely winning.

Certainly no landslide by any stretch of the imagination.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

A landslide equates to winning with 3,000,000 less votes? That's only dust going up hill.

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barncatz

The author of the OP article seems like an awfully nice person, surely intent on bringing America together. Snaps for Mandy. According to Salon :

Amanda Marcotte is a politics writer for Salon who covers American politics, feminism and culture. Her new book, "Troll Nation: How The Right Became Trump-Worshipping Monsters Set On Rat-F---ing Liberals, America, and Truth Itself," is out now.

__________

My goodness, Amanda Marcotte. Awfully nice indeed.

__________

If this helps, just a guess, but Marcotte's book may have something to do with this bridge building effort by DJTJ:

"Triggered: How the Left Thrives on Hate and Wants to Silence Us"


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vgkg (Va Z-7)

"Silence us"?.....well, no one likes to listen to constant lies. Keep talking, we learn more with every lie junior.

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HU-885118952

Still kicking dirt around about that pesky electoral college. It's sad.

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barncatz

Ha ha, vgkg. That is the best response I've heard to DJTJ's authorial endeavor.

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queenmargo

If this helps, just a guess, but Marcotte's book may have something to do with this bridge building effort by DJTJ:

"Triggered: How the Left Thrives on Hate and Wants to Silence Us"

Barncatz if this helps,- Marcotte's book April 24, 2018

DJTJ book Nov.5 2019 just a a guess, but, if anything SHE burnt the bridge and maybe it was the effort by Marcotte that had something to do with his book.

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queenmargo

Why do the left like to always point the finger at which they are guilty of?

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Kathy

That is hilarious considering Trump does that every day. It’s always easy to read what he is doing by what he points at.

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cait1

Republicans have flat-out rejected democracy

ROFL And that's a problem?

Why would anyone want to be ruled by a mob?

Democracy is tyranny. Despots love the mob that fawns all over them. Wants everyone to bow to their commands. Sees everyone who doesn't conform to their way of thinking as hostile slaves that need to be beaten. They are devoid of the ability to self-reflect so will never see how evil they really are.

The bureaucracy needs to go, too. Just another entrenched mob that makes life miserable for the masses.


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queenmargo

Hey cait- good to see you *waving*

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elvis

He had an IQ 100 points higher than Donnie, yet he had the nerve to wear a tan suit.

He looked good in that tan suit. And just look at that grin, beautiful teeth.


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HU-885118952

The tan suit really complimented his complexion and his smile, elvis.

cait, yes, the Left thinks democracy=justice, but only if you're in the majority. If you're the minority, you are powerless.

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barncatz

I said it was a guess, margo, relying on this language from the post Her new book...is out now.


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Anna

Wow, the good old days when we had a decent good looking smart man in charge.

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elvis

Obama was decent-looking, with great teeth, don't you think?

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Anna

Yes , lovely natural teeth compared to the fake chiclet smile of the orange one. I can play the game.

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elvis

They look like the same teeth now as when he was young. Lots of people have lovely natural teeth. I do.


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Ann

Mine were a bit crooked, but I got braces many years ago. The day I got my braces off was so fun!

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Anna

They are not the same teeth he has today. Nowhere near.

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HU-885118952

DH had braces as an adult...after having them as a teen.

Many adults are going for braces for the first time in their lives. It's a pretty big thing.

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HU-885118952

For some, veneers are the way to go. Many reasons to go veneers.

For some, they don't care and go natural, no matter the disarray.

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HU-885118952

What will Anna do if Bernie wins? He's ugly as all get out, and not a Rhodes Scholar by a mile.

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Rina

Bernie's not in the least bit ugly. He's what is known as old, that's all. And his hair has a life of its own.

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Stan Areted

Bernie is a wanna be rebel.

He will not even comb his hair and that is obviously intentional--part of his schtick.

I don't know about his teeth; I don't recall seeing much of them.

As the saying goes, he could have "tiny little baked bean teeth."

Some are better than others--but appearances become questionable and distracting when there is a noticeable, yet fixable attribute that remains, especially in people with a modicum of education and means.

Who knows, some people might consider they are Lauren Hutton and it is charming. It can be--but on Lauren Hutton! Likewise, uncombed hair might look charming on a young man with curly hair--on Bernie it makes him look like a desperate escapee from a memory care wing.

So far I haven't seen any scary Nanny McPhees in this group of candidates. If they are, we can take up a collection.

Put your best face forward, candidates!

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barncatz

He looked good in that tan suit. And just look at that grin, beautiful teeth

HU-885118952

The tan suit really complimented his complexion and his smile, elvis.


Guess Trump hadn't slipped his teeth in yet for this photo. Or else he was afraid they would clash with his suit.






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Stan Areted

Our President looks good there!

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queenmargo

I like that photo of Trump barncatz. Thumbs up;)

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barncatz

I hate his grin, I'm sorry to say, so that toothless one is an improvement for me, too!

If any one is interested, Margaret Renkl, of the dreaded NYT has a column I loved today. Don't miss clicking on the link to her first column about little Millie. A paragraph from the first:


The Blessing of a Rescue Dog

And life in this political climate is its own trauma, too. The earth itself convulses with melting sea ice, raging fires and cataclysmic hurricanes, and our fellow citizens respond by putting our government into the hands of people who don’t care. Suddenly, the world seems to be entirely populated by refugees, and many of our fellow citizens respond by shouting, “Build that wall!” How do we stand it, all this mortality? All this sorrow and suffering, all this dangerous anger?


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/opinion/rescue-dogs.html

The Lesson of a Rescue Dog


It would be absurd to turn this one little rescue dog into an analog for a troubled country, much less for humanity as a whole. This little rescue dog isn’t even fully rescued herself. She will always carry within her the life she endured before us. The brutality, the hunger, the fear — they will always be there, deep inside, just as they are for any other living thing who has suffered terribly. The body remembers pain. The brain holds on to trauma. But we also cling to kindness. A stumble in the dark may elicit a yelp, but a tender touch will always bring Millie back to us now. When cruelty is all the news ever seems to hold anymore, I try to remember that too.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/03/opinion/rescue-dogs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

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mudhouse

I love people who rescue animals, especially the ones who step up to the very big job of rescuing animals who've suffered crushing emotional trauma. It can be a huge challenge to try to get them back to believing the world isn't a terrifying place, but if you can pull it off and save them, you might get a special place in heaven, and they'll reward you ten times over.

For those who hit the NYTimes paywall, I archived the pages so you can read both good editorials:

The Blessing of a Rescue Dog: Jan 27, 2019 https://archive.is/cWCUP

And, a year later:

The Lesson of a Rescue Dog: Feb 3, 2020 https://archive.is/DVlpe

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mudhouse

People who haven’t seen her in a while invariably make some version of the same observation: “This is not the same dog I met last time.” But she is the same dog. She’s just a happier, braver version of herself. Perhaps most remarkably, her fears continue to fall away, day by day, the longer she is here. Even now, she is not yet the dog she is in the process of becoming.

A little dog like this is going pretty steadily from a dark place to a new and better place, with small ups and downs along the way. With the few abused animals I've had the honor of rescuing, it can be two steps forward, one back, a few sideways, then two more forward. Little setbacks, but mostly things get better, slowly.

The path countries take to their new identity is complicated, and always changing, with forces pushing from the outside, and from within. To me, it's much less of a straight line than a rescue animal, and the zig zags and set backs can be more violent. Wars happen, societal standards change, legislation changes, goals evolve.

But I do think it's good to look at it as an ongoing process of becoming, and not an end. I think looking at the Trump years as the end of democracy, or the end of the country as we know it, are just as hyperbolic as some of the things Trump says.

A lot of the time, I don't mind hyperbole (it has it's place as a persuasion tool, and it can be audaciously enjoyable, depending on your agreement with the person spouting it!)

But it's a mistake for either side to take mistake hyperbole for factual truth. The country as we know it, isn't really ending. The country, as always, is in the process of becoming.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“The country, as always, is in the process of becoming.”

Becoming what, is the million dollar question.

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barncatz

Thanks so much for doing that, mudhouse. I think your point about hyperbole is well worth considering. I think Trump wields that purposefully and the media symbiotically magnifies and echoes it and we're like clothes in a spin cycle


Miss Lindsey, may we all find what we dream it will become and spend our dollars, and energy there.

Bryan Stevenson, author of Just Mercy, founder of Equal Justice Iniative

I have to believe things I haven't seen. We couldn't have gotten 140 people off death row if I wasn't willing to believe something I hadn't seen. We couldn't build this museum or this memorial if we weren't willing to believe things we haven't seen. I went to Harvard Law School — I'd never met a lawyer until I got to law school. And I just think that has to be the orientation that sustains and defines what we do. It can't end with anger. It can't end with fear. We get to a better place, we get to justice, when we get past fear and anger.


https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=796234496&live=1

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mudhouse

Thanks so much for doing that, mudhouse. I think your point about hyperbole is well worth considering. I think Trump wields that purposefully and the media symbiotically magnifies and echoes it and we're like clothes in a spin cycle

Thanks for posting a thoughtful and positive addition to the thread, barncatz.

I'm talking to myself about hyperbole, too, and reminding myself to try to remember that if I can accept Trump's hyperbole at a rally, I should try hard not to let the hyperbole of authors like the one in the OP push my buttons.

It's used on both sides, daily, and always will be, because it's a pretty good tool. Schiff is very good at using it, just like Trump is.

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