Kiss the republic goodbye

51gerri

When the senate republicans acquit trump they will have killed the republic. This country becomes a dictatorship. The president can do anything he wants with no oversight. Before someone makes the argument that he can be voted out, Putin will make sure that trump is reelected. Since trump can do anything he wants he will not be limited to a maximum of 8 years. Our future is a dictatorship where there are billionaires and the working poor. We won't have to worry about immigrants trying to get into the country. We'll have to worry about all the people trying to leave the country.

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katrina_ellen

And pigs may fly while you are predicting the end of days.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

They are supporters, you're correct. Take heart. Read this headline:


In contrast with Trump legal team, Justice Department lawyer says House can impeach over defied subpoenas


From CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/politics/trump-impeachment-subpoena-hearing/index.html

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HU-885118952

Before someone makes the argument that he can be voted out, Putin will make sure that trump is reelected

First, it's not an argument in the sense that it's a hypothetical. It is OUR VOTE. To the paranoic statement that follows, there is no evidence that Putin changed one vote in 2016, and no evidence that he will do it in 2020.

(the Left seems oblivious to the actual intent of Russia meddling, after 3 years...)

But your OP is a very good reminder to all sane Americans, that we will see this rhetoric increase drastically as Trump gets acquitted, officially becomes the Republcan nominee, and faces whatever pathetic Leftist loser that survives this goat rodeo of a Democrat primary process.

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Wants to Grow

Hi Rob333, Please don't be fooled by your incorrect source. House subpoena's issued prior to an impeachment authorization vote are non-enforceable.

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Stan Areted

"But your OP is a very good reminder to all sane Americans, that we will see this rhetoric increase drastically as Trump gets acquitted, officially becomes the Republcan nominee, and faces whatever pathetic Leftist loser that survives this goat rodeo of a Democrat primary process."


Oh yes, so fervent and hysterical, as have been the last three years +.

Now--MEH.

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patriciae_gw(07)

We need to be looking for evidence that Putin changed people's minds because that was what I was seeing. People suddenly overwhelmed with political spam selling conspiracies about Hillary Clinton. some of this stuff was paid for with rubles.

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Kathy

Hi Rob333, Please don't be fooled by your incorrect source. House subpoena's issued prior to an impeachment authorization vote are non-enforceable


Your source? It may be decided in the courts.

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HU-885118952

Wants to Grow

Hi
Rob333, Please don't be fooled by your incorrect source. House
subpoena's issued prior to an impeachment authorization vote are
non-enforceable.

They were requests, not subpoenas. There was no poena. That was by design, as Pelosi refused to have the House vote on an impeachment inquiry.

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HU-885118952

The House did not want to wait for the courts. That was by design.

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Kathy

That is exactly what Trump is threatening the Senate with now. He will tie any witnesses and documents up in the courts for years.

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paprikash

That is exactly what Trump is threatening the Senate with now. He will tie any witnesses and documents up in the courts for years.

——————-

Good - let the whiners win the election if they can; if not, shut the heck up already

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queenmargo

The whiners are pre whining over losing the next election

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paprikash

Covering their bases

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Wants to Grow

Hi paprikash, Add tying up the Senate to the mix. I'm sure halting judicial confirmations is part of the insidious plan of the Democratic Party saboteurs.

This is why witnesses are supposed to be questioned at the House committee level, before articles of impeachment are submitted to the Senate. Witnesses don't shutdown the entire House of Representatives, like they do for the Senate.

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dandyfopp

They don't seem to be able to forsee a future when the opposing side behaves this way, that is unless of course the point is the opposing side can never regain power.

To that end I don't know why we should bother with an election because I wager Donnie doesn't think that idea is in the best interests of the nation.

We can do away with impeachments, heck with congress for that matter, not necessary, send them home.

The president will know what is best and govern that way, a law onto himself.

Just be sure your team keeps the ball.


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Wants to Grow

Hi HU-952, you are absolutely correct that letters of request, not subpoenas were issued. Thank you for that clarification.

Hi Kathy, this website explains the reason why a full House authorization vote is required for impeachment subpoenas.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/20/pelosi-gaslighting-continues-false-claims-administration-defying-lawful-subpoenas-document-requests/

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Wants to Grow

Hi dandyfopp, you just identified exactly why Presidential impeachment is intended to be a bi-partisan decision that is reserved for criminal violations. It is insidious for impeachment to be used as a political weapon.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

All you have to do is elect a Democrat for president and everything will go back to "normal". All those special rules made specifically for this president will suddenly, like magic, disappear!

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lurker111

It will be a bipartisan acquittal and the country will be saved. I'm an optimist. :^)

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Tito Milian

I just appreciate calling America a republic

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

The acquittal only saves trump, not the country.

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Tito Milian

”It is insidious for impeachment to be used as a political weapon.“

Pernicious. You are absolutely right about judicial appointments. The judiciary used to be one seat of power that Democrats flexed and wielded with impunity

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Kathy

WTG There is nothing in the Constitution stating the full House has to vote on impeachment before subpoenaing documents or witnesses.

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margaritadina

''

Tito Milian

I just appreciate calling America a republic
''

With the next Dem president it will become a banana republic real quick. Yes, kiss it good buy.

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Wants to Grow

True Kathy, but as outlined in the link, provided earlier:

A legislative “letter” or demand request needs to carry judicial enforcement authority –A PENALTY– in order to be a “subpoena”.

There is no penalty that can be associated with these demands because the Legislative Branch has not established compulsion authority (aka judicial enforcement authority), as they attempt to work through their non-constitutional “impeachment inquiry” process.

It has long been well established by SCOTUS that Congress has lawful (judicial authority) subpoena powers pursuant to its implied responsibility of legislative oversight. However, that only applies to the powers enumerated in A1§8. Neither foreign policy (Ukraine) nor impeachment have any nexus to A1§8. The customary Legislative Branch subpoena power is limited to their legislative purpose.

There is an elevated level of subpoena, made power possible by SCOTUS precedent, that carries inherent penalties for non-compliance, and is specifically allowed for impeachment investigations. That level of elevated House authority requires a full House authorization vote.

In this current example the Legislative Branch is expressing their “impeachment authority” as part of the Legislative Branch purpose. So that raises the issue of an entirely different type of subpoena:… A demand from congress that penetrates the constitutional separation of powers; and further penetrates the legal authority of Executive Branch executive privilege.

It was separately established by SCOTUS during the Nixon impeachment investigation that *IF* the full House votes to have the Judiciary Committee commence an impeachment investigation, then the Judiciary Committee has subpoena power that can overcome executive privilege claims.

There has been NO VOTE to create that level of subpoena power.

As a consequence, the House has not created a process to penetrate the constitutionally inherent separation of powers, and/or, the legally recognized firewall known as ‘executive privilege’. The House must vote to authorize the committee impeachment investigation, and through that process the committee gains judicial enforcement authority. This creates the penalty for non-compliance with an impeachment subpoena.

A demand letter only becomes a “subpoena”, technically meaning: ‘a request for the production of documents with a penalty for non-compliance’, when the committee has judicial enforcement authority. That process establishes an enforcement penalty.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/20/pelosi-gaslighting-continues-false-claims-administration-defying-lawful-subpoenas-document-requests/

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51gerri

when you can't argue the facts, you argue the process. they can't argue he didn't do it. maybe we should all start learning russian. i'm sure trump would sell the country to putin for the right price. he will be able to do anything he wants and no one can stop him.

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Ann

Margo, yes, I've seen the pre-whining already underway and we don't even have a Dem nominee yet.

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Joaniepoanie

We will become a banana republic if Trump is acquitted. He already operates like a dictator——acquittal will remove all checks and balances and he will have been given the green light to do anything he wants. And he will.

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paprikash

He should be acquitted. This political partisan shampeachment should never have happened. Impeachments should always be bipartisan.

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Annie Deighnaugh

HU...8952

there is no evidence that Putin changed one vote in 2016...

Do you think that spending on a political campaign makes a difference? Do you think things like advertising and using social media make a difference to a political campaign?

If so, then you can't argue that putin never changed one vote as his propaganda machines and bot farms amounted to tons of campaigning for trump. Facebook estimates that 126 mil people saw material posted by the Internet Research Agency (IRA)...russian's propaganda machine. They also published over 131,000 messages and uploaded over 1,000 videos. And they bought over $100,000 worth of advertisement. Twitter found over 2,700. They even managed to get some people to attend a rally that the russians made up.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/technology/facebook-google-russia.html

Not to mention the illegal contributions from the russians and all the advertising activity of the NRA that far exceeded prior elections....see maria butina...And that doesn't include the benefit trump got by receiving from russia the dnc strategic campaign plan. Not to mention the russian release of the tranche of dnc emails as a distraction to trump's p-gate tape.

Just because no one will stand up and say "my vote changed as a result of russian propaganda" doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's naive to think it didn't.

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HU-885118952

there is no evidence that Putin changed one vote in 2016...

Do you think that spending on a political campaign makes a
difference? Do you think things like advertising and using social media
make a difference to a political campaign?

If so, then you can't argue that putin never changed one vote as his
propaganda machines and bot farms amounted to tons of campaigning for
trump

Actually, I'm not arguing. Our tax dollars paid for an investigation that found that.

You must be SO mad that Obama quashed a plan to counter Russian interference in the 2016 election...


And still, they don't understand Russia's goal, which they keep happily fulfilling.

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Kathy

WTG that is all debatable. It has never been settled. Usually the DOJ does discovery. Since Barr refused the House had to do it.

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Ann

"Do you think that spending on a political campaign makes a difference? Do you think things like advertising and using social media make a difference to a political campaign?"

Bloomberg sure as heck hopes these things make a difference!!!!

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Kathy

I doubt Bloomberg has Russian money backing him.

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Ann

"Just because no one will stand up and say "my vote changed as a result of russian propaganda" doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's naive to think it didn't."

Gosh, do you not have any confidence in American voters to make their own choices? I think Schiff most certainly doesn't.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

They say the people who think “it could never happen to me” are the easiest marks.

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Ann

"easiest marks"? What the heck do you mean by that?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

They also say that if you don’t know who the mark is, it’s you.

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socks(10a)

I share your concern, Geri. We are gong down a bad path.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Our tax dollars paid for an investigation that found that.

If you are talking about this from the Senate Intelligence report: "NO EVIDENCE OF CHANGED VOTES OR MANIPULATED VOTE TALLIES" ...that's because, at least this time, the primary target was not the voting machines themselves, but the minds of the voters pulling the levers.

Moreover: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/politics/russian-hacking-elections.html WASHINGTON — The Senate Intelligence Committee concluded Thursday that election systems in all 50 states were targeted by Russia in 2016, an effort more far-reaching than previously acknowledged and one largely undetected by the states and federal officials at the time.

If the russian hacking into election systems went after voter registrations then they need not mess with the tallies at all. They may have successfully stopped people likely to vote democratic from voting at all by removing them from voter rolls. We know there were issues in NC around voter registrations. And the election was so close that it wouldn't have taken many voters to be influenced by Russia to swing the election trump's way. And it was very clear from all the reports about it that russia favored trump, bigly.

Other reports like the CIA report, the Mueller report, did not assess the effectiveness of russian activities on the election outcome...political hot button that it is...but we do have a quote from a russian agent in the mueller report who, upon hearing the results told his comrade, "Putin won."

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Annie Deighnaugh

Gosh, do you not have any confidence in American voters to make their own choices?

Oh they can make their own choices, but how many of them are woefully misinformed? How many are manipulated with misinformation?

For example, this study showed that fox viewers were less informed than people who watched no news:

Or this poor woman...



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mudhouse

Annie, reports are that 15,000 people attended the Trump rally in Wildwoods New Jersey a few days ago. Today, people stood in cold in the 30's all day in Des Moines, Iowa to attend another Trump rally; the building capacity was 7150 and they had to turn people away.

Just how many of these people do you think are being driven to Trump by Russian propaganda? I can tell you they're being driven to Trump by his policies, but attitudes like the ones displayed in your post, that characterize Trump supporters as ill-informed, manipulated, and gullible, play a role too.

That video you posted is disgusting. CNN interviewed that woman in Florida, Florine Gruen Goldfarb, because a Russian propaganda group targeted her Facebook page supporting Trump. She was not aware that the group that contacted her about an impromptu Trump rally was part of a Russian group called Being Patriotic. That contact with Being Patriotic caused Florine and a few dozen of her friends, all Trump supporters that she knew personally, to attend a Trump rally organized by that group. (They also attended many other legitimate Trump rallies.)

So, the best evidence you have of the terrifying impact of Russian propaganda is a two year old video of an elderly woman being harassed and embarrassed by a CNN reporter? She had to take down her own (legitimate Trump support) Facebook page not long after that interview, because she was targeted by people calling her a traitor. What a great outcome. Thanks, CNN.

Even that well-known right wing rag Salon disapproved of Drew Griffin's interview. https://www.salon.com/2018/02/22/unwitting-russia-victim-badgered-by-cnn-to-what-end/

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

The problem isn’t that she was duped. The problem is that she refused to listen to evidence that she was duped.

Every success makes Russian propagandists smarter and emboldens them to push things further. I can’t imagine that the President publicly declaring that they *aren’t* operating in the US to influence elections makes them less motivated either.

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Kathy

The FBI has warned there is currently and will be Russian election interference in this election. It can take many forms. I suggest people inform themselves how they can be duped.

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Ann

"I can tell you they're being driven to Trump by his policies, but attitudes like the ones displayed in your post, that characterize Trump supporters as ill-informed, manipulated, and gullible, play a role too."

A really big role, IMO!

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queenmargo

The people who drove me to Trump were Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Are they working for the Russians?

The media must be working for the Russians too, as they are driving me so far away from everything liberal.

That women in the video was PRO Trump before that Being Patriotic group contacted her. They did not sway her vote or dupe her.


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“They did not...dupe her.”

You sure?!

If they did not dupe her into thinking they were a legitimate American organization holding a legitimate rally then she *knowingly* associated with Russian operatives whose purpose it was to influence American elections.

Her being duped is the best scenario here.

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queenmargo

NO, she already was a PRO -Trump Supporter. This group didn't dupe her into anything she already was.

Every day people deal with people that they have no idea of whom they are really dealing with.

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queenmargo

I could have a person come to the door and try to sell me cookies for a "charity", a "fund raiser". It sounds nice, but I could be donating to a terrorist organization. We like to take people for their word. If we see a Russian at every turn, lol, OY!


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mudhouse

The problem isn’t that she was duped. The problem is that she refused to listen to evidence that she was duped.

No, the problem is that the CNN reporter's goal was to make an example out of a private citizen, in an ambush interview, to make his point that she was too stupid to realize that her Facebook page had been targeted by a fake Russian group. She clearly didn't understand initially what he was even talking about. When he told her the name of the group, she thought he was asking her if she was a patriotic person.

The interview could have been handled entirely differently, and in a way that allowed her to be portrayed as a sincere individual that had been taken in by the Being Patriotic group.

The problem is that he didn't care about the fact that her support for Trump was real, and that her patriotism was real. The only thing he cared about was making sure people knew he'd finally found proof that somebody had been taken in by fake Russian propaganda.

Well, score one for CNN, and for people who support shaming a private individual whose only crime was daring to organize a Facebook page to share her support for a president she believes in. This kind of behavior only increases Trump support (as the Salon article implied.)

Griffin was roundly criticized on Twitter, as he should have been. And if this is the most current proof of successful Russian propaganda, I think it's safe to say we can all come out from under our beds.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

She was duped; she was duped into thinking Being Patriotic was an American pro-Trump org.

It was/is in fact a Russian organization bent on influencing the election.

The con did not change her vote but it did cause her to collaborate with a foreign organization that intended to influence the US election. That is illegal. If she wasn’t duped, she belongs in prison.

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queenmargo

miss lindsey- mudhouse said it best!

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Hmm.

I thought the reporter was respectful. He asked for her side, he tried to present his evidence. When she walked away he didn’t follow her, he didn’t ever invade her personal space. He didn’t use abusive language and remained professional at all times.

The interview couldn’t have been handled differently because she was completely unwilling to hear that she had been tricked. She had no interest in hearing what he said.

Obviously there is a large and reprehensible culture of shaming on social media, and too many people and bots use it to say things that no decent person would even think. I fail to see how this reporter is to blame for that.

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Annie Deighnaugh

The reality is, mudhouse, that some trump supporters are easily manipulated and are being fed a diet of lies from the likes of rw radio and other outlets like breitbart and rush. It's no accident that trump's chief strategist came straight from breitbart, that trump names people from fox news to senior positions in his office, that trump's personal lawyer also claimed hannity as a client (one of only 3) and that trump frequently cites and responds to fox news reports as well as having hannity carry water for trump. Just because that may not represent you and your attitude toward trump doesn't mean it isn't true for other supporters.

And yes, I do feel sorry for that woman in the video because she was duped. But I agree with miss lindsey that the problem was her unwillingness to face the facts that she was victimized by russians. It's not harrassment to be told the truth...facts are stubborn things.

Nowhere did I say that video was the *best* evidence of russian interference with our election...that was your words. Frankly I think the best evidence has come from our own intelligence agencies and mueller and the senate investigation into russian interference, but trump downplays and dismisses* those for obvious reasons, fox and barr mischaracterized what's in those reports, then others repeat the gop talking points often enough to make them 'true' regardless of the facts...such as "complete exoneration" and "no quid pro quo."

---------------

*not to mention firing all those who played a role in the russian investigation including those most senior with the most knowledge of such things within the FBI.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

So if she wasn’t duped, then...she knew she was in contact with Russian agents.

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queenmargo

aaaaaaccccckkkkkkk....

NO, LOL, my point is if the Russians were trying to influence her and her group, it was not necessary. They already were pro Trump.


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Ann

Wow, some of these comments are getting bizarre.

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queenmargo

If I go to Russia and visit Putin myself, he can not dupe me into being a Trump supporter. I already am.

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queenmargo

LOL Ann. I am feeling bizarre. Wish we could swear on here, lol

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mudhouse

Good heavens, Annie, I can honestly say that I believe many on the left are easily manipulated and being fed a diet of lies, from the likes of WaPo, NYTimes, Rachel Maddow, Morning Joe, The Independent American, CNN, and more.

See how it works? Insulting the other side does nothing but harden their beliefs. I really don't have any hopes of changing your mind, but sometimes I don't think people are aware of how damaging condescension can be to any effort that hopes to make a convincing argument.

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Ann

I think some people just need to settle back into a little reality. Emotions might be running a little high tonight.

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Ann

Margo, no bizarre from you tonight. Your feet seem to be firmly planted in reality.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

It doesn’t matter if they were successful in getting her to change her vote. I’m not saying they did that. I don’t even think they were trying to do that. You keep arguing that as though it is my assertion but I never even implied it.

They were successful in making her believe that she was in contact with a patriotic American group, when in fact she was in contact with Russians who were working toward their own agenda, whatever that was. I don’t think the agenda in this case was to change votes. Their agenda was probably to form an illusion of legitimacy by piggy backing on her authenticity.

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Ann

Huge ditto to Mudhouse's recent comment!

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mudhouse

I agree, Ann. Bizarre and a little worrisome! I'm just glad that Florine Goldfarb is probably tucked safely into her bed tonight, and not sleeping on a cot in prison somewhere, lol. She really didn't look or sound like much of a criminal to me.

I can't quite decide whether to laugh, or swear, so I'll just say....MAGA, and Go Trump! And I hope everybody has a good evening.

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queenmargo

See how it works? Insulting the other side does nothing but harden their beliefs. I really don't have any hopes of changing your mind, but sometimes I don't think people are aware of how damaging condescension can be to any effort that hopes to make a convincing argument.

So true... I came to this forum as a happy-go-lucky Trump supporter.... I was hardened up real quick.;)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Ok well, one last try for the sake of believing in people’s ability to reason.

-Foreign groups (and some domestic ones) can’t just announce themselves as their true identities. A Russian group can’t say “hey we want Trump (or whomever, it’s multi partisan I’m sure) to be elected and we are hoping to change American hearts and minds, can we join you?”

-In order to infiltrate legitimate American organizations, these groups make up false identities such as “Being Patriotic” and they reach out to American groups.

-If the American groups accept the fake organization and work with them, post about them, reblog them, host events with them there begins to be a history for the fake organization that looks legitimate.

-After a reputation is established with one entity that Americans trust, other legitimate American organizations are more likely to work with the fake org and their good reputation snowballs.

-Eventually Casual Voter who just does a quick “who should I vote for” search sees “Being Patriotic” candidate endorsements, may or may not research the group (and when they do, they see all the great work it does with other notable groups of good report), and hey presto! Russians have influenced a vote.

It’s well documented, there is no secret that it is happening now and has happened in the past. There isn’t any shame in admitting that a person got taken in. The shame is if they refuse to look facts in the face.

These groups are the enemies of all of us on every spot on the political spectrum.

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Annie Deighnaugh

See how it works? Insulting the other side does nothing but harden their beliefs.

That's where the difference lies...I don't see your saying that some people on the left are easily manipulated as an insult or condescending. It's the truth. Some are. That's not an insult, that's a fact.

It only becomes an insult if one chooses to put themselves in that bucket and then chooses to be victimized by that comment.

Of course, wapo and nyt tend to be a *lot* more professional and fact based than breitbart or infowars or fox which is really 100% editorial as opposed to journalism, so people who follow those main stream professional journalistic sources are better off. But anyone is disservicing themselves if they aren't open to new information and facts, and recognize that all sources of news have been wrong at times and need to be questioned and verified. As my old sec'y used to say, don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you read.

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Kathy

Catkin, you’ve been duped.

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aegis1000

Honestly, ... a Republic depends upon its people ... and, I, for one ... have faith in Americans to uphold the good ... and to oppose the evil.


Some differences between the 2016 and this year ...


* Trump is no longer an unknown, politically. We know exactly how he will govern.

* We know that the Russians will be attempting to subvert the vote.

* The Democrats have the opportunity to nominate a more favorable candidate.

* Democrats should be united in their goal to oust Trump.


Of course, this means ... no more misplaced notions about moving the country to the Left at this point. In a fight, you cannot run defense AND offense at the same time. At this point, we must focus upon defending/rescuing the Republic ...

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lurker111

We're going to keep a close eye on the DNC this time. They won't get away with hacking the vote. We know what happened in 2016.

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Kitchenwitch111

There is no point arguing about this with Trump supporters. The reality game show host is their guy. They are with him no matter what. We just have to out vote them.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Yes kitchenwitch, if we can keep them and their comrades from rigging the election so they can't lose. After all, dershowitz says it's in the president's interest to do so, so it's ok.

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lurker111

Very defeated. No hope at all.

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queenmargo

I am surprised the left has not thought to think this:

Maybe all the registered Dems that go to his rallies are really Russians. LOL



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51gerri

Not all people against trump are liberal democrats. I am and have always been a republican. In fact the democrats scare me. But anyone would be better than trump. I don't want to live in a dictatorship but it looks like we will be. He will be able to do anything he wants and no one will be able to stop him.

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Ann

"We just have to out vote them."

One of the most sensible comments in months and I mean this very sincerely. Someone understands that it's elections that determine who is president. Figure out a candidate people want to vote for who offers policy they support and you'll win.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Figure out a candidate people want to vote for who offers policy they support and you'll win.

Unless the system is rigged against you with voter suppression, propaganda and misinformation, and now a president who can use the power of his office domestically and internationally to bring down any of his political rivals. And there's no one in congress or the courts who are going to stop him at this point.

Scary stuff. And it's happening so amazingly fast. Who thought a centuries old constititutional republic could be brought to its knees in less than 4 years?


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lurker111

lol

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Don't worry y'all! They'll come to their senses when the republic they loved is gone and the person they don't support has them locked into things they don't want. Then, they'll get it. Right now, they're killing our way of life and the viability of the democracy because it suits them. When it no longer does, their eyes will be open. They only understand one sided crap and hate fairness. Flip the tables baby!

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socks(10a)

Brilliant comment.

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mudhouse

Scary stuff. And it's happening so amazingly fast.

Almost as fast as we recovered from World War III. Phew, that war zipped by in a blur, it was so fast. Sure was scary though.

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olliesmom

mudhouse, LOL!!


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chisue

This is not about which political party you support. It's about the Cult of Trump. The GOP has lashed itself to him, but it's not only Democrats who see that he is and has always been a tool of Putin and his oligarchs. Trump has been beholden to the Russians and the Saudis from the day they bailed him out of his latest bankruptcy. WHY would they do that if not as a means to subvert the US and alienate us from our allies abroad -- leaving easy pickings for them?

The man is an evil fraud, same as Hitler. My disappointment is with Americans who are ignorant of history and unwilling or too lazy to question motives and consequences. It is ironic that the very people who will be most injured by this cult are its biggest fans.

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barncatz

Never Forget WWW III through V

(Trump: if I listened to him, we would be in World War Six by now)


Sorry, I know there's a paywall for the Washington Post article I posted at the end but it perfectly illustrates the point of view of Michael Bennet, the Colorado Senator and Presidential candidate who's been unfortunately, in my opinion, lost from view.

The final basic argument of [Bennett's] book is that: What it means to be a citizen in a democratic republic like ours is you must think of yourself as a founder. That is the level of expectation that is placed on our shoulders. When you think about that, that is a very elevated view about what it means to be a citizen,” he told me, ...

The corrective path he narrates in the book is easily cast as naive. But Bennet pushed back against my reflexive cynicism. “What’s naive is expecting Washington to solve any of our problems continuing to work the way it is. So I don’t accept the terms of that debate,” he replied.
https://coloradosun.com/2019/07/31/michael-bennet-president-2020-democratic-primary/

Washington Post article about suburban Iowa democrats, who aren't waiting for Washington:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/too-blue-to-bother-in-iowa-suburban-democrats-are-trying-to-stage-a-political-takeover/2020/01/31/7ee4ed46-42ad-11ea-92c2-3239695096b2_story.html?itid=hp_hp-top-table-main_iowasuburbs-930a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans



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numbersjunkie

Bennett's a good guy. I always liked him.

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chisue

The fault is in ourselves. The whole grand idea appears to be foundering on the principle that citizens will fight to uphold a precious Constitution. guaranteeing a republic. The US Senate has failed us.

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Chi

The Republicans are winning incrementally due to sheer exhaustion of the American people from the constant barrage of Republican corruption. They have also numbed us to the point where there's barely a reaction to the same antics that would have doomed any other President.

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Ann

I'll agree there is sheer exhaustion alright, but I think it comes as a result of an entirely different reason than you do.

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HU-885118952

Americans aren't numb to the economy ;-)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“Americans aren't numb to the economy ;-)”

Maybe not, but they certainly may be ignorant of it.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5860758/economy-not-soaring#n=39

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Annie Deighnaugh

I do like Bennett a lot too and I wish he was able to make a bigger splash as I think he's a guy that both sides could support.

But none of that will matter as trump will steamroll the election and we'll get another 4 years of his kingship and then just try to get him out after that. dershowitz has already given him the raison d'etre: he thinks he's the best thing for the country so *anything* he does to that end is acceptable.

What is most ironic is, it's the party that was so traditionally wary and even anti-government that is permitting this imperial presidency...it's the ones who always wanted big government to fix all the problems who are out there trying to prevent this authoritarian takeover.

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mudhouse

The American people aren't exhausted; they're just capable of arriving at their own conclusions. If you don't see the reaction to Trump you think is appropriate, maybe there's another explanation.

Maybe capable people disagree with the dire characterizations you hold about Trump. Instead of accepting those without question, maybe they're making a judgement about changes in the course of the country that they believe will make the country economically stronger, safer, and more free.

Could that be it? Could it be jobs, trade, tax reform, national security?

In one of barncatz's links above, Michael Bennett says that President Barack Obama’s initiatives were “ripped away like tissue paper” because they weren’t grounded in bipartisan agreement. The current impeachment isn't grounded in bipartisan agreement, either. That's a problem.

People have real opinions about the best path forward, based on what they see in their own lives. Oversimplifying things by simply declaring that one side is corrupt, ignorant, exhausted, misinformed, and killing the country, just takes us further away from where we need to go.

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HU-885118952

mudhouse, the Dems had an uphill battle after they failed to fully investigate before they impeached Trump. But their choice to attack anyone who would disagree, even the Chief Justice, well that was just political suicide.

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mudhouse

HU885, I think the Dems lost their way when their goal became taking out Trump, instead of figuring out what it was about Trump that voters are responding to. And I think they're still lost.

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Chi

When I spoke of "Americans" being exhausted, I didn't mean every single one of them. I didn't think I'd have to specifically say that I wasn't being literal but I will be sure to do so in the future. It was generalizing based on my social circle and the thousands and thousands of similar sentiments that I've read online.

Of course there are some people who feel differently and are thrilled with what Trump is doing to the country. We see it here every day.

But my observations still stand for me. I believe the Republican strategy is to tire out and numb the people (disclaimer: not literally everyone) so they react less and less to each outrageous stunt they pull. This is how dictators are made.

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HU-885118952

I think it's the Democrats and MSDNC media who the American people are tuning out. Both combined don't have the approval rating which Trump has.


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Kathy

Only if you live in a silo.

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HU-885118952

mudhouse, the Dems are so lost that they are attacking Trump's lawyers and calling for loss of their "lawyer status".

I said to hang on at the very end...

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mudhouse

I think the end of this impeachment trial may be pretty wild. I hope it doesn't get extended into next week (I don't see the benefit) but I'm reading it could be.

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HU-885118952

There's more up the sleeves of Democrats.

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barncatz

The American people aren't exhausted; they're just capable of arriving at their own conclusions.

51.9% Disapprove of Trump

43.4% Approve of Trump

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

Here's another interesting article, especially for anyone willing to get in and do some work.

Democrats launch massive battleground plan led by Obama general

Some of the party's most powerful factions are set to join forces to counter Donald Trump's political machine this fall.


https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/31/obamas-field-guru-leading-massive-organizing-effort-109805

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Annie Deighnaugh

This impeachment isn't about policy differences between trump & the dems...it is about the very structure and core of our form of government, whether or not the president is above the law and whether or not the system of checks and balances will be undone.

The senate has just voted no witnesses, despite knowing that bolton has direct knowledge of trump's role in the ukraine quid pro quo. They are going to have a lot to answer for when they get home, considering 3/4 of Americans wanted to hear from witnesses. But all of it is irrelevant.

trump will be acquitted and be above the law. He will do whatever is necessary, legal or not, to win the election and he will then be free to run the nation as he sees fit with no checks, no balances, no accountability.

This should be of concern to *all* Americans regardless of party as it is the biggest threat to our freedoms since at least the civil war, if not before.

SOS.

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Kathy

Imho, Bolton wouldn’t step up when the House asked him but he speaks now? If he thinks it will sell books, I hope the book is a flop. He is a coward imho. Another Rep stepping back and allowing Trump to plunder our country.

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Ann

Kathy, we agree on Bolton's book selling motivation. I think his actions and choices have all been about selling his book. To me, it seems almost like Comey style behavior.

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mudhouse

This impeachment isn't about policy differences between trump & the dems...

Sure it is. It's a taxpayer-funded smear of a Republican president, because the Democrats don't like the policies of the man that the country elected. And that's what it's been about since the plan was hatched, years ago.

...it is about the very structure and core of our form of government, whether or not the president is above the law and whether or not the system of checks and balances will be undone.

No, but this is what the Dems are pretending it's about. They can't win on policies, because Trump has managed to rack up an astonishing collection of real-world accomplishments in only three years, matching the promises he made when he campaigned. Trump delivered.

So the goal of the Dems turned to finding something, anything, to take Trump down. Mueller's investigation into Russian collusion failed, so Vindman's interpretation of the July 25 phone call was used as the basis for a series of events resulting in a theatrical sham designed to damage Trump with the voting public.

The threat to the government's system of check and balances comes from the way the Dems have cheapened the process of impeachment. They've lowered the bar for impeachable offenses to use impeachment as a partisan weapon. They've declared that a president's right to access the courts is grounds for removal from office, instead of what it really is: a necessary part of the balance of power between the three branches.

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Chi

Sure it is. It's a taxpayer-funded smear of a Republican president, because the Democrats don't like the policies of the man that the country elected. And that's what it's been about since the plan was hatched, years ago.

No, it's about a President who thinks he's above the law. It's not okay for the POTUS to blackmail another country for dirt on his political rival.

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leona_2008

Any good Bolton and anyone enabling trump have done will be forgotten. Their legacies will be just that -- they will share the blame for all of trump's wreckage.

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justerrilynn(10)

I don’t think Trump ever even thought Biden was someone to worry about beating. The Ukraine’s past corruption and conversations regarding that were nothing new and started before Joe’s run. Since Hunter Biden has suspicious activity in the Ukraine I think we need the details. The Democrats are deeply corrupt and the truth will come out.

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Kathy

Comey was between a rock and a hard place. There were factions in the NYFBI working with RG saying they had found more evidence of emails when in fact they were duplicates. They knew that from the investigation of Weiner. I’m beginning to see how RG has been working on his corrupt deals using Trump as leverage for his own crooked deals in Ukraine, Turkey and elsewhere. When everything comes out about RG it will be bigger than anyone suspects now.

BTW, I think Bolton is truthful but he is a coward who stepped back to promote his book. It doesn’t mean what he is saying isn’t pertinent, it just means he isn’t a hero. Only in his own eyes.

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Chi

I don't think he's a hero at all. But I do think he knows some information, and that's why the Senate is so eager to wrap this up.

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barncatz

...Vindman's interpretation of the July 25 phone call was used as the basis for a series of events designed to damage Trump with the voting public.

The "perfect phone call" was only one of the many facets of the "drug deal" .

And Trump has never had the approval of a majority of the people.

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mudhouse

barncatz, I think vgkg may have made the same point to me, a while back. But if the phone call was only a small part of some greater scheme of corruption or illegal activities, why was it used as the centerpiece of the impeachment?

Why didn't the House proceed to investigate the matter completely, and do adequate discovery to bring evidence of that alleged scheme of corruption to light? If it really was there, they should have pursued it, including fighting for subpoenas to bring about the testimony they needed. Trump's legal arguments about the validity of the subpoenas, and executive privilege, could have been argued out in court, as in other impeachments, if the will to do so had been there on the part of the House Democrats.

It wouldn't have been fast, but impeachments (and the hard work of discovery needed to justify removing a sitting president) aren't supposed to be fast. It should be slow and painstaking, because impeachments overturn the results of an election. The fact that the Dems were too impatient to do the necessary work in the House can only mean one thing; there was nothing there but theater, and the goal was to damage Trump in the upcoming election. Otherwise, why didn't they pursue it? Why rush the incomplete case on to the Senate, if the phone call was the least important part?

The other point is, impeachments aren't collections of things we don't like about a president. Investigation can be multi-faceted, but the final articles of impeachment have to be specific, and backed up by evidence. Implying that "there was other stuff going on" doesn't cut it when you're talking about impeachment.

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HU-885118952

The lifelong bureaucrats, lobbyists, policy wonks, deep staters and other barnacles who like and want to maintain the status quo of inertia, inside deals, palm greasing and, most especially, keeping us involved in foreign conflicts. Trump is the first real threat to any of that in their lifetimes and they are fighting like wounded animals. That's what this impeachment charade is really all about.

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chipotle

Karma is coming and her color is blue.

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Ann

"Only in his own eyes."

Lol, I think Bolton and Comey are most definitely similar in this way.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Sure it is. It's a taxpayer-funded smear of a Republican president, because the Democrats don't like the policies of the man that the country elected.

This is simply not true. This is all about a president who flouts the law at every turn and has violated his oath of office to uphold the Constitution. There have been other gop presidents who have disagreed wholeheartedly with democrats on policy but they were not impeached...including W whose election was in serious question, being appointed by the SC despite having actually lost the FL vote, and who put the US national security at risk by starting a war of choice which is still draining the country all these years later.

Rather it has been all about a president who violated the emoluments clause on day one, whose NSA was compromised by the russians and negotiating with them to lift sanctions on the day of trump's inauguration. He's only violated more laws since. He's only represented a greater threat to national security since.

The threat to the government's system of check and balances comes from the way the Dems have cheapened the process of impeachment. They've lowered the bar for impeachable offenses to use impeachment as a partisan weapon.

This simply is not true...the gop in their decades long partisan witch hunt against the clintons lowered the bar as low as it could go by impeaching a president for lying about a private affair....a witch hunt that continued even beyond the 2016 election. That witch hunt came on top of a "vast right-wing conspiracy" to find something, anything on the clintons from hillary's cattle futures to foster's suicide to whitewater to travelgate and the years of starr investigation urged on by a private, wealthy, citizen and gop contributor richard mellon scaife for him to continue even as he was ready to quit...only to find a majority of senators who said, yeah he lied, but so what...it wasn't about anything relevant to our nation's interests. All that then morphed into benghazi, hillary's emails, uranium one...all of it a waste of time and money with nothing criminal or illegal found, except that it allowed the gop to put a mobster in the presidency.

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HU-885118952

chipotle

Karma is coming and her color is blue.

I'll bet people tweet that to Trump all the time.

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justerrilynn(10)

The dem’s would rather believe that Trump was afraid of Joe beating him so tried getting dirt to knock him out.

What a brain dead thought. Joe failed at becoming president twice before. Miserably! ! Forget the polls. Everyone and their mother knows, most young people wouldn’t even bother getting out of bed to vote for Joe.

Think people think!

We do need to look into the Bidens suspicious behaviors in the Ukraine. There’s your corruption.

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barncatz

Implying that "there was other stuff going on" doesn't cut it when you're talking about impeachment.

I don't understand this if it refers to my post, mudhouse. And I'm not sure why it's in quotes or who you're quoting, but it's not me and, sorry, not something I was implying.

I was disagreeing with your statement that, not even the call, but rather Vindman's interpretation of the call was the basis for the Abuse of Power article.

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mudhouse

barncatz: I don't understand this if it refers to my post, mudhouse. And I'm not sure why it's in quotes or who you're quoting, but it's not me and, sorry, not something I was implying.

Yeah... I agree I made it confusing when I put that part in quotes, and I'm sorry. I was actually trying to indicate that I wasn't quoting you, and I was just trying to rephrase what I thought you were saying. So when you said:

The "perfect phone call" was only one of the many facets of the "drug deal" .

Could you expand on what you mean? I did lump it together with another comment that vgkg (?) made to me in another thread days ago, that I've been thinking about, and maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning.

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Chi

The dem’s would rather believe that Trump was afraid of Joe beating him so tried getting dirt to knock him out.

Trump has unlimited resources as President to investigate whatever he wants. Instead of using any of them, he sent his personal lawyer to Ukraine to request a meeting with Zelensky, with a letter saying he was requesting the meeting as a private citizen and not as POTUS.

Asking for the meeting as a private citizen destroys Trump's defense that he is entitled as president to investigate whomever he wants. He didn't ask for this investigation as POTUS - he asked as a private citizen while also using his office for personal political benefit.

Imagine if Obama had sent his personal attorney to Ukraine with a request to investigate Romney in 2012, and then blackmailed Ukraine to announce the investigation. I don't believe for a second that Republicans would have been just fine with that or that they would have thought it was in the realm of Presidental rights.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Let's not forget that there is something seriously wrong when a president asks a foreign nation, known for corruption, to investigate a US citizen...no different then when trump supported putin's suggestion that he turn US citizens over to russia for interrogation. His job as president is to protect US citizens...not subjugate their freedoms to countries known to violate human rights and falsify crimes against individuals for their own political purposes.

That alone should make what trump was working on a reason to remove him from office.

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lurker111

LOL ^^^ Joe confessed.

Nice try. (not really)

"Do you know why he's on trial? Because he's afraid to run against ME"

The man is senile and totally insane.

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zmith

“Joe confessed.”

Here we go again. Deflection at its finest. News flash...SO DID TRUMP! If you accept one confession, you accept both.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

If the former, highly corrupt president of Ukraine had stayed in office, Mr. Trump wouldn't have needed to make that fatal phone call or halted military funding. Things could've stayed in the background & out of sight, as usual.

The new president ran on a platform of anti-corruption. Mr. Trump needed to win him over, to corrupt him, you might say.

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Chi

Thank God for the whistleblower! And the 2018 election.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

The senate repubs inaction will turn the 2018 blue wave into a 2020 tsunami. They only managed to postpone their coming day of piking.

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lurker111

"Do you know why he's on trial? Because he's afraid to run against ME"

This impeachment was an attempt to cover for the crats money laundering in Ukraine. They were the corruption. They got caught in Ukraine, and other countries, too.

(Thanks joe)

"Do you know why he's on trial? Because he's afraid to run against ME"

lol

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HU-885118952

Biden is a surprisingly weak candidate. I never paid attention when he was running for office before, but he obviously has not improved with age.

Trump, otoh, man his rallies are on fire.

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Ann

Katy Tur certainly has her doubts about Biden's inability to generate enthusiasm!


https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/nbc-reporter-doubts-bidens-iowa-support-based-on-campaign-trail-turnout

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

The attempted tu quoque and ad hominem coming from R-wing stalwarts is absurd on the face of it and only convincing to those already predisposed to believe such rubbish. Preaching to the choir, IOW.

There is no valid evidence proving any of the allegations (which is putting it politely) against the Bidens or Democrats. Repeating falsity and slander is not proof.

And despite the outrage and overreaction to perceived persecution, it's not a smear if it's provably, observably true.

Seems like some folks have taken a page from our president's playbook - the one he learned from Roy Cohn - always punch back harder and nastier.

The truth is that our president has corrupted his office from day 1. There is overwhelming evidence to prove it. He has blatantly and brazenly funneled millions of taxpayer dollars into Trump, Inc. The expected acquittal will embolden him further, I'm guessing, and we will see more outrageous actions going forward.

Thinking it's a safe bet there will be no improvements in our healthcare system, despite all the campaign promises, on the contrary, if they get their way, more people will lose access to healthcare. Pollution will increase - EPA just reinstated glyphosphate - water pollution will certainly increase. Air pollution will increase. Poor and disabled people are already losing services and care. Education is being hollowed out. Etc., etc.

MAGA - for the oligarchs.

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